Conference 7.286::sports_91

Good ideas, 'Saw.  I often wonder, with all the technology that has been 
adapted in various sports over the years, how sports will be different from 
now in 50 years.  100 years.  200 years.

I think the microphones in the helmets of the QB and the outside 
recievers/backs would be one such Tech Assist that would help the players on 
the field.  But at the same time, it might negate the home field advantage in 
certain situations.  I could go either way on this one depending on my mood I 
guess.

Overall though, I think human error in officiating is part of the game, same as 
human error on the part of the players is part of the game.  It's all part of 
what make up the drama of human competition IMO.  Take human judgement out of 
the picture and it would be just too sterile for me.

That said, comments on Saw's ideas:

Hockey puck net sensor - this could work.  A sensor of some kind in the puck 
(would have to stand up to quite a pounding obviously) that set of sensors on 
the goal mouth when it crossed.  It would have to be very precise though since 
it is only a goal once the entire puck crosses the goal line.

>Something in a football receivers shoe would turn on a sensor in the sideline,
>registering an out-of-bounds footstep.  This would help a ref because then,
>he KNOWS the guy has gone out of bounds, and his attention can then turn
>to "was he pushed" etc...

First thing that comes to mind on this one is what about players going into/out 
of the game?  Would the sideline be constantly beeping (or whatever)?  Also, 
what if the receiver and defender are playing tight in 1 on 1 coverage, and a 
catch is made with both players going out of bounds and it is unclear whose 
feet came down where first?  Whose feet set off the sensor?  It would probobly 
be possible to do, but this would have to a be a pretty sophiscated system.  
Look how badly a relatively simple system like instant replay got butchered.

Scott

    Technology assists will take over in sports as product reliabilty and
    flexibility advances and prices drop.  I divide assists into two 
    categories 1) spectator enhancement and, 2) rules enforcement
    enhancement.
    
    Category 2 is the most controversial.  An obvious candidate for such
    technology usage to me is tennis, where the speed of the ball and the
    great difficulty in determining whether such a small object hits the
    stripe has players in fits continually.
    
    Yeah they have the sensors on the nets to detect faults, but McEnroe
    and others have been begging for implementation of an existing system
    to put sensors on all the stripes.
    
    MrT 

 � 2) rules enforcement enhancement
 
 Another idea would be to somehow tie the end-of-period buzzer with the
 basketball in the shooter's hand.   The move to a "tenths" clock helps
 somewhat but it would be nice to see a buzzer-and-light combo go off if
 the shooter cannot somehow release the shot before "00.0" hits.   Would
 need a contact-sensitive device on or inside the ball in exact synch with
 the clock.
 
 Would eliminate the delicious screw-job that Michigan State suffered at
 Kenny Anderson's hands two years in "Norfolk".
 
 Bob Hunt

Scott, 

Good point about the tussle with defender and WR going for the ball, who's
foot hits?

I'll take an easy out on this one and say that, team A has one type of
sensor (red) and team B has a different type (blue).  All you need to do
is tell whether the footprint was red or blue.

Could probably deal with the players crossing the stripe by having everything
"radio activiated" to coincide with the snap of the ball, and turned off
after whistle, maybe?


I guess that after seeing how NASCAR and racing in general have come so
far with cameras and now these sensors that'll display the RPMs, gear,
and braking in the cars to the folks at home on TV, I just can't see
similar breakthroughs in other sports being that far off....


'Saw

    The screw-job Mich. St. suffered at the hands a Kenny's 1 1/2 seconds
    late game winner was nothing compared to the several seconds late
    shot by Danny Manning that cheated them out a yet another FinalFour
    appearance. 
    
    That stands as perhaps the most outrageous officiating seen outside
    of boxing.  It helps little that the timekeepers were quietly retired
    by the NCAA.
    
    MrT

       Hey 'saw what's with this 'technology assisted' stuff? I thought
    you said you didn't like instant replay because you were a 'purist'!
                                     Denny

    Currently in GP motorcycle roadracing, all the major points of interest
    are covered, then downloading into a PC, which in turn graphs the
    needed info.
    
    Items covered are:
    
    Throttle position, front,rear,swingarm suspension travel, Cam timing,
    coolant temp, brakes, power exausht valve opening, Head and exausht
    temp, RPM, just about everything. This of course is all analog, most of
    the sensors being linear potentiometers.  
    
    There is some way cool stuff out there that they use, and it helps in
    the long run.
    
    The good thing about stuff like this is eventually it will relate back
    to the average Joe. I'm not talking specifically about motorcycles, but
    in all advances in technology for all high level's of any sport, we as
    consumers will benifit from it in the long run.
    

Denny, 

I see a difference between what I proposed and instant replay.  Instant
replay attempts to go back in time and change something that has already
been called.

Technology Assist will assist the officials in making the correct call
at the time of the event.


The hockey puck scenario illustrates it right, I think.


Currently, I can think of several places where stuff like this exists.

In Track, the starter blocks are computerized, and so are the starting
blocks in swimming, I think.

In fencing, competitors are wired, and touches scored electronically.

In bowling, there are foul lights across the line.....



Those things help make a call.   They don't attempt to go back and overturn
a bad call....



'Saw

    Forget about the stuff about whose foot hits where, how do you know
    that the receiver has the ball?  Also keep in mind that merely touching
    the ball does not indicate possession.
    
    I like the idea of having microphones in the helmets to defeat crowd
    noise problems, and it's a technological idea that shouldn't be hard 
    to implement.  Ideally, any home field advantage should only be
    grounded in emotion, with all other factors eliminated (officiating, 
    noise, field characteristics, playing dimensions and backgrounds, etc.).  
    The downside to home field advantage is the situation that exists in 
    the NBA where a road victory is considered an "upset" in the vast 
    majority of games, where producing victories for the home crowd has for 
    practical purposes been mandated by the league, through the officials.  
    Baseball has the smallest home field advantage of the major sports, 
    which in the spirit of fair competition is good...
    
    glenn
    

    Yea Glenn,
    Opposing players wouldn't have listen to that stupid growl in Beaver
    Stadium. 8^)
    
    MikeL
    
    'Course, good defensive play could negate that too!
    

>    Forget about the stuff about whose foot hits where, how do you know
>    that the receiver has the ball?  Also keep in mind that merely touching
>    the ball does not indicate possession.
    

Right.  I didn't say get rid of the human ref.

If a ref has to look at 3 things in the course of a play, and make a
split second decision, and you can tech assist one of them, the chances
of him making a better call are greater.


Ref watches WR and DB go up for the ball.  Sees WR gain possession, and
as they come down he can't see the foot that lands an inch o/b.  However,
the tech assist says "foot o/b".   


'Saw

    
    > Opposing players wouldn't have listen to that stupid growl in Beaver
    > Stadium. 8^)
    
    Hey, I agree, I hate that thing.  It's annoying.  So is "we are... Penn
    State", for that matter.
    
    Saw, my point with possession is that it's a timing thing.  The
    receiver must have possession *before* he steps out-of-bounds, not
    if/if not.  The official still needs to be looking for possession and
    foot placement.  Yes, where it's clear that the player had possession
    in the air, the technology aid works.  I just think that, as is your
    beef with instant replay, the aid should be damn near seamless or it 
    creates as many problems (was possession clearly established in the air 
    so that the aid can be used, or not?) as it solves.
    
    glenn
    

    >> Opposing players wouldn't have listen to that stupid growl in Beaver
    >> Stadium. 8^)
    
    > Hey, I agree, I hate that thing.  It's annoying.  So is "we are... Penn
    > State", for that matter.
    
    None of the above though get on my nerves quicker than "We will we will
    rock you....".  To quote a past regular of this conference, makes me
    want to blow my burgers and Buds.  
    
    
    py
                                  

    
    The sideline thing could work like the service line in tennis. In some
    tournements that I have seen, there is a man who starts the machine
    when a player serves. I think this could easily be adapted to work in
    the NFL. I tend to agree that taking one more thing away from the ref
    would only make them better. And you wouldn't need sensors in the
    shoes, some sort of magnetic field or laser line would work, cause
    you'd only need it on the close calls, if a reciever were to land 5
    feet out of bounds, the system doesn't have to work.
    
    
    Dana

Glen,

I want you on my list of signature to close Phase 0 on the
Chainsaw's Sideline Watchdog....


8^)


'Saw

Technology that already exists and should be implemented...

NFL replay should have a whistle that produces a visual indicator on the video
tape of when the official blew his whistle. This would get rid of the inadvertant
whistle calls where you an audibly hear that there was no whistle blown.

machines in tennis that record ins and outs. 

machines in hockey,soccer that indicate when a goal is scored (the whole ball 
and the whole puck must be over the line)

future technology I'd like to see.....

'Saws in/out line judger for football. Put sensing devices in the shoes of the
recievers only so the machine doesn't pick up DB's feet at all. Or different
recievers for different teams.

Automatic ball spotter. when the offical blows his whistle a device on the 
side line senses where the ball is and shines a light on the field to show the 
official where the ball should be spotted. along this vein a laser to indicate
1st and 10 instead of the archaic way of bringing the chains out which is way 
to inaccurate.

Baseball is great the way it is....I would use technology to help refine
pitching motions, pickoffs and hitting swings.....

Metz
 

�Baseball is great the way it is....I would use technology to help refine
�pitching motions, pickoffs and hitting swings.....
    
    Why not use some time of electronic sensing to call balls and strikes? 
    This way we might actually get to a real strike zone again.  Technology
    for the other stuff already exists (video tape and computer analysis is
    used alot to analyze hitting and pitching mechanics) and is being
    improved upon.  Dr. Arthur Pappas, Red Sox team physician, has
    developed an instrument to measure the stress on the wrist, forearm,
    and elbow during the pitching motion.  Roger Clemens has been trying it
    out for him.

now that you mention it...

Having a 3-D area around the plate that adjusted itself for each hitter would
be feasable for balls and strikes. It sure would eliminate all the squabble
about pitchers being squeezed and ricky Hendersons exagerated crouch at the
plate to give the appearance of a smaller strike zone....

You'd still need an umpire there for calls at home...

Metz

Only drawback of the sensors on the WRs shoes and not on DBs would be
in the case of an inty....

I was pondering the sensing device for hockey, but how would that work.
A lot of the goalie (butt, back) is IN the net when he's protecting 
a post and the puck is behind the goal...


'Saw

Easy,,,,

Just imbed a sensor inside the puck that can withstand a 95 mph slapshot,
bounce off metal and wood and flesh get deformed and not break and isn't
lethal when litle kids cut the pucks apart....then put the sensing devices
in the goalposts that know they are on the line (not knocked off) and can
tell when the whole puck is across the line...

As my friend from Scotland used to say....


No problem for a man of your caliber...


Metz
 

Since the entire puck has to be completely across the line, and the sensor would
have to be in the center of the puck, the [whatever you call the thing] in the
post would have to be one and a half inches inside the net. It could be like a
bar-code reader at the supermarket. This would eliminate the questions on slow,
dribbling pucks that barely make it over the line. If it isn't completely over
the line, it won't be far enough to activate the device.

Course it still wouldn't solve the problem of refs beeing too skeert to call a
penalty in the 3rd period :-)

Tom

    All this talk of technology makes me wonder how many events were won or
    lost in the past due to the LACK of technology?
    
    Like, in downhill skiing, when the racers were clocked by hand, a
    "quick" timing official could effect the outcome, same as a "slow" one.
    
    One area where I'd really like to see it is in baseball, particularly
    when dealing with strikes and balls.  There is such a difference
    between leagues, and even differences over a few years in a particular
    league.  I can't say for sure about the NL, but the AL umps most
    definitely do NOT call the strike zone as it's defined by the rules.
    
    That's not the same as the difference between two umps, it's the
    difference between what is defined and what is actually used.  I think
    it's stupid not to either change the description or make the umps call
    it by the book.  The present situation is as dumb as the "In the
    neighborhood" call at second base.  Why even have a rule if the umps
    are gonna make their own calls?
    
    Lee

                      
    The umpires have historically altered the strike zone to match the
    conditions of the time.  It's occurred gradually, but if the umps
    called balls and strikes as defined in the rule book in this era of
    nasty split-fingered fastballs and sliders, there would be very little
    offense in the game.  The rulebook probably should be revised to
    reflect the practical upper strike limit at the stomach (instead of at 
    the bottom of the armpits, which is practically an unhittable pitch in 
    this day and age).
    
    There is in fact a major difference in the strike zone from individual
    umpire to umpire, more so than league to league.  It's been
    statistically shown over a period of several years that there are some
    umpires who produce a run or more per game than the average, and others 
    a run or less.  That's a significant difference, especially where you
    might see an "offensive" umpire one day immediately followed by a 
    "defensive" umpire the next.  I'll bet dedicated gamblers follow who the 
    home plate umpire is from day to day.
    
    I'd still rather have the variability in umpires, as long as the
    individual umpire remains consistent, than the technology aid.  Again, 
    there's more to baseball as I enjoy it than the pursuit of perfection 
    in determining who wins or loses...
    
    glenn
      

    re .7
    
    It's always seemed to me that motorcycles are the cutting edge of
    automotive technology.  And now the mags are saying that the two-
    strokes are coming for cars.  
    
    Btw, wasn't racing the first sport to make on-board cameras 
    integral to TV coverage?  Nothing like watching a race from over
    the driver's shoulder.  Whoa.
    
    MrT

>    Btw, wasn't racing the first sport to make on-board cameras 
>    integral to TV coverage?  Nothing like watching a race from over
>    the driver's shoulder.  Whoa.
    
One of the most intense things I've ever seen in all of Sport was a
film of a lap at the Isle of Man, taken with a helmet cam, while the
late Mike Hailwood rode the course...   

Incredible!


'Saw

    I think football should be like the Video game Cyberball, On 4th and
    inches if you don't get the first down the ball blows up. 

    Saw,
    
    I think that was V for Victory with Joey Dunlop riding a factory Honda.
    Totally cray place the Isle of Man TT races are. This is a true 'Road
    Race' course, through the streets, past the churches and out to the
    highway. 
    
    This of course with the spectators only feet from the action. Awesome
    video.
    
    I have been trying to talk me gals' brother into letting me use hiw
    sony minicam. I want to tape it to my helmet and film some practice
    runs, and make a cool video. So far he won't bite, and I don't have the
    scratch to spend on a camera.
    
    
    Next thing you will see is bicycles with banana swingarms front and
    rear instead of conventional forks. Also the suspension will be right
    on par with todays 250cc GP bikes. Front and rear shocks with quick
    disconnect wheels. These are already built for exotic moutainbike
    racers, but they are probably 10 years away from the conventional
    bicyclist. (Mom,Dad, and the kids). While the cost of these units are 
    high now, it will come down in the future s more models are produced.
    
    I can't wait.
    
    

Nope.

It was in Kawasaki's "Taking It To The Limit".  It was Hailwood and
I think he was riding a Ducati, but can't remember....

Helmet cam is the way to go because you get a better view of the rider's
perspective....


'Saw

    Hmm...
    
     NEver saw that one, will keep my eyes open for it though. Hailwood was
    a great rider, no longer with us.
    
    I also toyed with the idea of a Fairing Cam, but it's too risky. Some
    parts of the course I really get the bike at max lean angle and start
    dragging the cases. Not fun. A side mounted Fairing Cam could be toast
    if I were'nt carefull with it.
    
    Got my FZR running yesterday, what a sound, music to my ears @ 10k with
    the exaust running abot 110 db.
    
    

    
    I can't see where team sports can be helped that much by technology,
    because so much hinges on the ref/ump to dictate the flow of the game.
    As i watched some of the NCAA games this past weekend, it was evident
    that refs call the game in favor of the better known, or higher seeded
    team.  The games I saw were too lopsided in fouls or free throws for
    them to be mere coincidences.  Can't see how any technology would
    change the sub concious bias by the refs.
    
    I'd love, however, to see something done with the strike zone.  The
    current zone is a joke, and IMO, detracts from the game.  And to  make
    matters worse, batters piss andmoan more now than ever, despite having
    the break of a tiny strike zone. 
    
    None of the technology can work if the human element is gutless - like
    instant replay was.
    
    Technology has helped in track and field, especially on the start,
    where the starting blocks and the gun are all hooked up.  Someone
    leaves the blocks before the gun, they are charged with a false start. 
    The clock is also started withthe gun, providing very accurate times. 
    On the throws, electronic measurement has taken the place of the old
    style measuring tape.   And the photo has taken the place of the human
    eye at the finish....
    
    JD

 Well, I'll take the Topic Title of this note literally and use it here to
 describe the little technology assist I got lasted week here in SPORTS.
 
 As you may have known (or could have guessed), I lost a bet with Po' MrT
 on the outcome of the ACC Tournament which wrapped up the weekend prior. 
 
 Because the No 1 seed Duke met the No 3 seed North Carolina in the ACC
 Final game, I agreed to wear a Notes personal name that said "Stop The ACC
 Tourney Now !!!" in a concession to Po' who thinks anything the fans might
 enjoy this much has to be halted.
 
 Early last Monday morning, I entered the required payoff p_name. 
 
 (Actually, I played a little warmup tease at first ... by fully spelling
 out "Atlantic Coast Conference Men's Basketball Tournament", the p_name
 stretched past the allowable character limit ... but that was quickly
 replaced after the expected Po' whine.)
 
 But then it seemed as though I was welshing on the payoff since I was
 entering notes with another p-name string ... this was "Go Lady Hoos !!!"
 in honor of the top-ranked Virginia women's team.   I claimed all along
 that I was paying off the bet legally and completely and was simply
 exercising a loophole that Po' had failed to anticipate and thus left
 open.
 
 I will state here, for the record, that once I set the p-name on Monday, I
 did *not* change it again.  In fact, it's still there as I type this.  It
 truly would have been a dishonorable welsh if I had kept changing the
 p-name at random spots.   But I did not and will swear to it.
 
 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the wonderful world of networked,
 client-server personal desktop devices ... I have on my desk a DECstation
 325c personal computer ... It's an Intel 80386 chip running at a speed of
 25Mhz.  On it I run MS-DOS V5.0, MS Windows V3.0a, PATHWORKS for DOS V4.1
 and a fresh new PC product from DEC called "PATHWORKS Links".
 
 PATHWORKS Links is a collection of MS Windows applications that take
 advantage of DECnet and NAS.  One of these apps is PATHWORKS Conferencing
 ... a VAX Notes client for Windows PC's.   
 
   *** SCNDRL is my DECstation 325c running PATHWORKS Conferencing. ***
 
 PATHWORKS Conferencing allows the user to set up his/her own *LOCAL* NOTES
 notebook file with its own set of network pointers to NOTES forums around
 the network.  Along with a local set of pointers, it has ... ta da !!! ...
 a local collection of PROFILE data ... including a personal name string. 
 It's a great feature ... If your primary PATHWORKS server takes a powder,
 just point elsewhere and you don't miss a beat.  Also works great on a
 portable PC.   Unplug and go and you don't miss Notes.
 
 So, what's SHALOT, you ask ???   SHALOT is a VAXcluster, like any and all
 other VAXclusters running VMS.  Username and Password, $ prompt, key in
 "NOTES" and press {Return}, the works.   That's the same account I've been
 using for years now.  It's also the same NOTES notebook I've been using
 for years.   Yes, it would have been a welsh if I had kept logging on to
 different nodes in the SHALOT VAXcluster and kept changing the p-name,
 but I did not.
 
 And how did I get to SHALOT from SCNDRL ???  Easy.  I did what just about
 all PC users do when they have a VAX nearby.  I got a terminal emulation
 package to run under Windows (Reflection 2 for Windows, in case anyone is
 interested) and logged on as usual.   Best part was I could access SPORTS
 from both SCNDRL *and* SHALOT at the same time with no fear of a notebook
 collision ... 'cause there are *TWO* distinct notebook files, that's
 right.   Shrunk 'em both down to Windows icons and then I was armed and
 ready to click and expand on either one depending on the situation.  
 Entered most of SPORTS notes from SHALOT with the Lady Hoos p-name but
 quickly hopped over to the payoff string whenever Po' whined.
 
 The terms of the bet never stated what node, account, or notebook to use. 
 Po' Po' assumed I had just one of each.  Not true and not nailed down.  I
 flew the required p-name (with the required spelling, capitalization, and
 punctuation unlike /Roachy-Poachy) for the required 5 days without
 changing it.  Not once.  Nada.  Loophole city, babee.   Paid in full.
 
 Okay, now for the olive branch.  I recognize the staggering techie
 advantages that us *modern* computing technodweebs have and I actually
 feel a leetle sorry for Po' Po'.   Just a leetle.   I will leave it with
 the voice of the majority.   
 
 If you think that I should *not* have driven through such a gaping wide
 loophole and that I should continue to pay off this bet by letting Po'
 close it up and nail me down to a specific node, then send me mail saying
 so.   If you think it's paid in full and he ought to quit calling himself
 a "Legal Whiz" for letting this one slip by him so badly, then send me
 mail to that effect.   I'll tally them, report back and do what's right. 
 Promise.   No tricks.   No unfair use of new technology.
 
 Bob Hunt

    bob -
    
    If I was a judge, and this was brought befgoere me, you'd be in a cell
    and the bailiff would have whacked your tallywhacker.
    
    JD

    re: Bob"Witch"Hunt
    
    Who do we send mail to when we honestly couldn't give a dang about what
    must be described as a stupid college prank you your part?
    
    
    - ACC Chris

 You shoulda kept that hole beneath your nose shut while you had the
 chance, Soup-O-Rama.   'Cause you actually provided moi with one helluva
 chuckle yourself lasted week ...
 
 Around mid-week, the perpetual chihuahua in ol' Soup-A-Rino barked up
 again and he was "hounding" me about the bet squiggle I was running.  So I
 called up our good friend mano-a-mano and laid out the techie details to
 him.  Soup's a fellow t-dweeb so he caught on tout de suite and agreed to
 lay low.   But then he pulled a Dean ...
 
 His final question was ... "Why didn't you tell me ???"
 
 To which I could only respond ... "I *AM* telling you !!!"
 
 Bob Hunt

Hey, the loophole is there, the opportunity presented itself, and it would
be unmanly not to take it.

Sounds to me like the required p-name existed ON the SAME account for
the entire 5 day span.   (Does the sun still burn when it's nighttime?
You bet)....


At one point, as I was noting from RUGBY1 I thought I had the answer to
Bob's loophole, but then I realized that his username was not lowercase,
as it would have been had he been running XNOTES from Ultrix.

I was unaware of this new PC technology....


(This whole thing reminds me of a short story by Asimov -- a guy robs
a bank, then steps into a time machine set for one day after the
statute of limitations runs out...  neat little legal question).


I say Bob's paid up, AND MrT is the actual beneficiary because Po' learned
about a new technology to sell.....


'Saw

�Hey, the loophole is there, the opportunity presented itself, and it would
�be unmanly not to take it.
    
    Have to disagree with you there, 'Saw.  The mainly and sporting thing
    to do is to pay off the bet and not look for loopholes.  IMO, this is a
    much more blatant display of disdain for sportsmanship than that
    exhibited by the Slasher.

    I don't get it.  Whatever technical wizardry was employed, we're still
    talking about the equivalent of noting from a separate account.  Is
    that covered by a SPORTSlegal loophole?
    
    Of course, being that MrT was the "victim", I'm inclined to let it go
    with good behavior considering the plaintiff's own sordid list of
    priors... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    > Of course, being that MrT was the "victim", I'm inclined to let it go
    > with good behavior considering the plaintiff's own sordid list of
    > priors... 
    
    Situational Ethics at its lowest moment, Waugamain.  Fack is, Hunt's
    guilt is plain as day, and I for one suggest not only forcing him to
    make good on his non-payment but doubling the length as well.
    
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    

 � ... and I for one suggest not only forcing him to make good on his
 � non-payment but doubling the length as well.
 
 When you come clean on your ill-fated Larry Johnson vendetta, then you can
 try and put the squeeze on me.   Lasted week, after I clued you in to the
 particulars, you lost no time in teasing Po' Po'.   Not only are you
 cold-busted again but two-faced as well.
 
 Bob Hunt   

Look closely at the terms of the bet.

No one ever said we had to SEE it.  I just said that the p-name string
had to be set to whatever, and remain so for one week.

Bob did that.  

There were no restrictions that it had to be the only account from which
Bob could note....


I say that Bob obeyed the letter of the law....


'Saw

    
    No, Chris, I'm voting guilty but suspending the punishment based on the
    individual circumstances, as any good judge would do.  MrT's record of
    college pranksterism is so extensive that reversals are to be expected...
    
    glenn
    

    
    WOW! What a rush,
    Plaintiff, Justice, Judge, bailiff, etc, etc....
    
    Reminds me 
    
    
    
    
    Excuse me, yer honor?
    
    I gots to pee!
    
    ;*)
    
    I'm Baack!
    Kev
    

              <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS_91.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 17.3903          Atlantic Coast Conference Basketball          3903 of 3904
ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSY "Plato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnight" 58 lines  24-MAR-1992 19:10
                   -< pay up, "Witch," you been cold-busted >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Bob "Witch" Hunt in .3136
    
    >I'll wear a "Stop The ACC Tourney Now !!!" personal name for one 
    >solid week.
    
    The same would-be bad contract artist in .3142
    
    >Yep, if I lose, I wear the p-name for a week... I'll wear the p-name
    >for a week.
    
    Now, at this point this guy, naive as he is in the negotiation of
    contracts, thinks I'll fall for the obvious gambit of not nailing him
    down on actually entering notes with said p-name being worn.
    
    Also, note that his fake guarantees say nothing limiting wearing said
    p_name on one node only.
    
    Then, worried that a cagey negotiator of contracts like MrT isn't
    buying into his jive-bull, says this in .3147
    
    >Shame.  This was an honest wager and I would have paid fair and
    >                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^                       ^^^^^^^^^
    >square had I lost.
     ^^^^^^
    
    Then, MrT's coup de grace in .3175 as negotiations drag on with 
    "Witch" proving most reluctant to take The Pledged
    
    >Regarding the payoff, I'll guarantee one full day with a twenty note 
    >minimum, on a work day, in all my usual haunts, including this place.
    
    Having said that, the terms are set even apart from The Pledge that
    the payoff must entail wearing the specified p_names for the specified
    period of time entering notes in the usual topics.  I.e., "Witch" is
    in.
    
    So, two things were abrogated, although the sleazy "Witch" claims only
    one.  
    
    1) He clearly violated The Pledge, and doesn't in his shamelessness
       doesn't even dispute that he did.  So that agreement he broke.  It
       was part of the bet and he broke that part and so welshed the bet.
    
       One cain't trot out the "spirit vs. the letter" drivel when it has
       been agreed in writing that paying in good faith, no tricks, is
      a responsibility, a condition, explicitly established.
    
    2) He violated the so-called "letter" of the bet too, seeing that I
       was careful to lay into the record of the negotiations that payment
       would entail wearing the p_name while entering notes in the
       appropriate topics.
    
    He's not even particularly a good cheat.  At least ACCrook's unstable
    operation had some dynamic to it, some daring, and he was bale to at
    least partially weather the storm of the trial, Dick Nixon/Ronald
    RayGun-style.
    
    MrT

    Shaddup T, it was an innocent college prank ...

    Hunt puppet...
    

    Please note the perverse application a technology assist in 
    sports by the now admitted cheat Bob "Witch" Hunt.  All discussion
    in here and been about using technology to enforce rules, sorta a
    law n' order angle; Bob "Witch" Hunt's take on technology usage was
    the opposite.  And he's proud a himself!
    
    As I said, where has the honesty and fair play gone in this file?
    
    MrT

�    As I said, where has the honesty and fair play gone in this file?
�    
�    MrT
    
    T's right.  Things have really gone down hill since that "innocent
    college prank".

    I aim sick and tired of hearing about my alleged "innocent college 
    prank" and my alleged fake resignation to join a "small software 
    company."
    
    Both stories must now finally be told:
    
    1. The Chris Knorr mail
    
       Chris was having fun that week, wild rathole noting at its
       lowest, and everybody but poor MrT was having a good old time.
       I had grown physically eel and mentally fatigued from his relentless
       barrage of pro-Dean agit prop - and Chris sensed this.
    
       So, I aim sitting in my cube minding my own business my haid
       spinning from all the drivel I'd ingested in the old ACC note and
       a mail comes across my screen.  I go into mail and it's from Chris
       and reads thusly:
    
       "Hey MrT, wanna have some fun?  Wouldn't it be a scream if you 
       entered this mail I typed up below and said you were revealing
       that I had actually made a private admission that Bob > Dean
       and that I was secretly embarrassed with Dean and the Star Heel
       program?  It'd be a riot!  I typed up the mail below and sent it to
       myself and appended it to this mail.  Just extract this whole
       mail message and delete this part so it looks like a stand alone
       message you have received and it'll look real.  Go ahaid and do it,
       it will be a scream!"
    
       Well, we all remember what the other part a that mail looked like.
    
       But, I was happy to have a little fun in the old ACC note after all
       the lying and exagerration and obfuscation and confusion that I 
       had seen in there.  So I followed Chris' instructions to the letter
       and entered it.
    
       Then, to my horror, I realized I had been set up!  He had laid a
       rotten egg in there to screw me, the line count had been deviously
       set to 1 when the note was 30 or so lines long!
    
       And I was run out a this file on a rail, without even so much as
       a fair hearing.  Mass mob psychology at its very worst.
    
       After having been exiled from the note for quite a while by the
       shame and disgrace foisted on me by this tireless malefactor, he
       then starts sending me mails begging me to rejoin SPORTS.  
    
       I finally negotiated a settlement with him whereby he would absolve
       me of any wrongdoing in the matter.  He broke that promise too.
    
       Yeah, it was a prank alright.  But it wasn't innocent, and it wasn't
       mine.
    
    2. The "small software company"
    
       I must take part a the blame for this one, but infamous note 189 
       is not as it seems.
    
       Jim Wardle is a close personal friend a mine.  He even is the guy
       who dubbed me "Big10 Tom," in New Jersey, years before I ever noted.
    
       He also is responsible for my presence in this file.
    
       Anyway, I was already quite emotional that day, distraught really,
       with the sudden announcement that Air Snide was leaving.  NOBODY
       did so much to make me look so GOOD.  I was reeling in the realization
       that my foil was pulling out.  Also causing me much distress was that
       Snide was actually going to leave with so many fantastic assertions
       laying about with questions unanswered, evidence unsupplied.  After
       years of trying to corner this weasel, he had tease me, robbed me of
       my denouement, and in my mind was probably quitting DEC and going 
       to MBA school just to drive me crazy.
    
       Then the news about Wardle going into the drug business.
    
       Wail, after that second bombshell that day, I don't mind telling
       you I was sitting there, staring at my tube, eyes welled up with
       tears, chin trembling, adam's apple bobbing up and down like a
       point guard at the top a the key dribbling, wondering what move
       to make next.
    
       I was crying.
    
       I was also late for a appointment, yes, with a small software
       company with whom I'd been trying to cut a deal to sell DEC minis.
       
       And, in my confused mental state, I was skeered that if I left the
       office for even a few hours somebody else near and dear to me, and
       if I didn't get back to the office quickly enough I might not even
       be able to bid this next leaver goodbye!
    
       So, in this confusion, sadness, and fear, this distraught mental
       state, I entered the basenote of 189.  Calling out to my friends
       telling them I was going to be a way for a little while over at 
       this sofware company and not to worry and to stay in touch.
    
       As we all know, it was a terrible and tragic miscommunication.  A
       faux pas for which both reader and writer must bear responsiblity.
       Nobody felt worse about it than poor MrT, as you have since seen
       why, this terrible misunderstanding in which I was innocent of any
       wrongdoing has led to several months of severe criticism and even
       loss a credibility. 

                    
    Incredible,  My gawd how could you keep all that inside you for all
    these months?  
    
    The thought of you trembling by your terminal, all alone and confused. 
    This helps explain a lot about your Noting over the past months.
    
    Po MrT
    
    Pat

God, I could hear the violins and the angelic choirs a-singin.....

I'm so ashamed.   How could I have been so cruel and so heartless to this 
fine upstanding citizen ???   

Oh, Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' 
Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' 
Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' Po' MrT.

What else can be said ???  Lock me up and throw away the key.

Bob Hunt

P.S.   Hey Po', how about telling everyone how you woulda been only too 
too happy to bark like a dog for me if I voted *your* way against ol' 
/Roachy-Poachy ???

    >What else can be said ???
    
    Well, for starters if I were you I'd be talking about ACCrock's
    devious cruelty in that mail scam.
    
    MrT

C'mon, Po'.   Time for you to pay up.  Start barking.

Bob Hunt

I don't know how we can all be so MEAN to Po' MrT.

I mean, he's a nice erudite guy, who likes music and race car driving
and knows a lot about a lot of things.

We just stomp all over him for no good reason...

We ought to be ashamed of ourselves, and then, when Po' MrT comes in
here and fesses up that it wasn't a_innocent collij prank, but an
honest mistake by someone totally distraught and grieving over the
departures that have so egregiously rocked this file, we all jump
all over him....


I for one hope that MrT can find it in that big ol' Irish heart of
his to forgive the Chainsaw for EVER doubting him........

Nah, not good enough.  In honor of our mutual Crock-O-Matic pal, how about 
giving us some nice high-pitched Chihuahua yips ???

Bob Hunt

    re 2
    
    You're forgiven, 'Saw.  You must admit that I took it like a main,
    holding Chris' scam, and my own shame, in until it just had to be
    let out.  No finger-pointing, no blame-laying, no whining, just
    suffering like a main and dealing with it.
    
    Now it's up to my worst critic, Mac, to maybe apologize?
    
    re 1
    
    Speaking a mainhood, no way.  I give the deep throaty German Shepherd-
    style bark that when you hear it you cain just imaging big hairy
    cojones swinging mightily from the vigorous effort.
    
    No yips from MrT.  I know what you want to see: a 250 lb heavily
    musculated guy with a ape-furred chest and bulging biceps glistening
    bare under a black leather vest and a mohawk and Deion-style baubles
    making a spectacle a himself trembling and yipping like a chi-hua-hau.
    
    I'll pass.
    
    MrT 

Rollward.

Bob Hunt

    Anybody got some towels?  I just lost my lunch.

    This is what happens when you stop seeing Doc Inge???
    
    I'm not sure we're ready to be cast in that role......
    
    A&W

    Who sez that Dr. Inga and I are finished?  No, we're steal
    working together, but the new, more assertive, MrT is not
    yet completely rolled out.  No more Mr. Nice Guy.
    
    re: Big Mac
    
    Ha ha ha.  My isn't that funny.  Just keep in mind that now that
    the Truth a these matters have at long last been revealed besides
    ACCrock nobody is more revealed for his/her abuses than YOU.
    
    MrT

    

    >>   I must take part a the blame for this one, but infamous note 189 
    >>   is not as it seems.
      
    Sure isn't as it seems, 189 is the U of Michigan note, the "T" scam
    note is 184.0
    
    Schnort Schit Schwanz
    
    JaKe
    

    Mr T, I'm not impressed and you are still a long-winded bag of air...
    
    REK

    Dr. Inga is a "filberts" of T's imagination!
    
    MikeL
    

    I've got a severe haidache from laughing so hard and at the same time
    trying to supress the outbursts and the tears so that the people
    walking by my cube don't think somethings wrong.  Major haidache, but
    well worth it...
    
    Hawk
    

    You weal notice that the unsavory ACCrook has avoided this 
    revelatory confessional a mine.  Ashamed... or uncontrite?
    
    Where are the apologies I have earned?
    
    MrT

I kinda liked it when MrT barked like a dog.  

I think that's the SPORTS Note of the Week!


'Saw

    Sorry, T, I just calls 'em as I sees 'em.  I expect a guy who spouts
    off about his mainliness, his truthfullness and his objectivity to
    stand up, admit his mistakes, make no excuses, and take his punishment
    like the main he says he is.

    'Saw,
    
    If'n we give 'T the SPORTS Note of the Week just for one note of
    barking, just think of the prize due Hal(Tried Hard) for his years of
    woofing!!!   I suggest we just enjoy 'T's note but can any awards
    ceremony!!!
    
    
    HTH,
    
    Nelly

Nelly,

If you could see the reason *why* Po' MrT was barking, you'd agree that his 
canine communique of yesterday was indeed noteworthy.

Bob Hunt

    re .72
    
    Do I at last hear an apology in that run-on sentence, Mac?  Admit
    it: I was hoodwinked by the unscrupulous ACCrook, one a the trickiest
    operators any notesfile has ever seen.  I just took a credibilty hit
    cuz I happened to be the first victim innocent and blind and trusting
    enough to walk into one a his infamous double-reverse blindside 
    double-pump context-switching pump-fake haymakers and take the big fall.
    
    Please understand that it went down as I told it.  The college prank
    wasn't innocent; and it wasn't mine.  Perhaps I made a mistake by
    being mainly enough to absorb the punishment instead of excuse-driven
    mistake denials.
    
    MrT 

�    Do I at last hear an apology in that run-on sentence, Mac?  
    
    If you use ACChris style logic you might.  He's somehow read ringing
    endorsements of some his statements in my replies before.  I don't know
    how, but he did.

Po' MrT!

	Po' Po' T,

	Trust us, T, you didn't take a credibility hit.  You were
	just as credible after the incident as before.  And you are
	just as credible today as you were then.

	Besides, I can't see how the honesty and objectivity have changed
	at all in this conference at all.  You must be a little paranoid,
	that's all.

    As the strident feminists like to say, you guys just don't get it
    do you?
    
    The point is that when you all saw the mail's line count you just
    *knew* in joe feeble narrow little minds that you'd caught Poor MrT
    pulling a scam.  Full a yourselves, you proceeded to prosecute me.
    
    But, as we now have found, none of you knew what in the hell you 
    were talking about, and, as a result, in the final analysis had really
    *persecuted* me, and have fallen for ACCrook's stunt hook line and
    sinker just like me.
    
    That being so (and it certainly is) we're in the same boat with one
    significant exception: You all owe me a apology.
    
    Accepting in advance, I aim,
    Poor MrT

 �   As the strident feminists like to say, you guys just don't get it
 �   do you?

It always tickles me when the coiner of the term "beach-slapped" quotes the 
feminist movement.

Bob Hunt

    Well, T, I didnt' know a thing about this ACChris "prank".  I try to
    avoid the ACC topic in fact.  No apolgy needed from me since I never
    slapped you over the head with this particular one.
    
    You owe me and many others an apology for your "college prank" over the
    small software company.  First you called the folks who said goodbye a
    bunch of idiots for falling for this stunt.  Then you tried to put the
    blame for the whole thing on us.
    
    (I should move this whole string of replies over to 73)