Conference 7.286::sports_91

> During the Stanley Cup Finals, Minnesota cut a deal to show the games on
> Pay Per View.
    
    In general, I don't have a problem with pay-per-view if it brings
    access to more sports telecasts to those that want them, but this deal 
    especially was a disgusting, overtly greedy slap to the face of the real 
    fans of the Minnesota North Stars.  I know we've had some fun on the 
    subject of "bandwagon-jumping" over in the Pengoons note, but this was
    fickleness at its absolute worst.  I thought that the Gunds were gone?
    I would hope that at least a few of the good people of Minnesota that 
    were considering season-ticket purchases to the newly-popular Stars
    next year decided to tell the team to stick it for this brilliant show 
    of "appreciation".
    
    glenn
    

    I think it's good, as long as you don't have to pay for what is free
    now.  Perfect example is the NFL.  You get the usual 2 or 3 Sunday
    afternoon games on regular TV, but if the team you want to watch isn't
    in one of those games, you can dial up any other game of your choice
    for a fee.  This way you can follow your favorite team if you don't
    live in their regional viewing area without buying a dish.  Would also
    be nice for college football, but all teams probably wouldn't be available
    due to the large number of college games played every week.
    
    Joe
    

    Norm Green was locked into that deal when he bought in.  It'd been 
    set up by the infamous Gund bros.  He *did* take a lotta heat for
    not having bought the contract out, though.  Minnesotans were quite
    angry cuz on any given night there are more Minnesotans at hockey
    games of all types (leagues ranging from 5 year olds up to the big-
    time H.S. leagues not to mention the Gophers and Stars) and are the
    most hockey-crazed people in the nation, with lowly Pittsburgh being
    at the opposite end of the "hockeyness" scale).
    
    It was a real slap in the face for them to be denied watching the
    Cup.
    
    MrT

    How were Minnesota fans "denied"?  They could watch the games either on
    TV or at the rink (admitedly for a price).  Such hockey-rabid great
    fans would pay it, wouldn't they?  Sports Channel carried the Cup
    finals.  Is it available in Minnesota?
    
    So, T, did you pay per view or just form your "obejctive" analysis from
    the highlight films?

    My first thought (cynical of course) is that if this is a way to cut
    out the major networks and their quest for the almighty commercial, it
    might be worth it.
    
    For low visability games - regular season, no division leader involved
    - it might be a good alternative to plastering the channels with a
    gazillion games at any one time.  You pick the ones you want to watch.
    
    However, I'm sure that the high visibility game are going be the 1st
    targeted for this.  And those are the games which should NOT be
    restricted from the general viewing public.  If that happens, is would
    really tick off a lot of people and might hurt the sport in the long
    run.
    
    Another thing - if I'm paying for a game, there had better not be any
    commercials on at all.  Strictly the game itself and game analysis. 
    Elimitating the commercials would shorten the game (old complaint) and
    provide for flow to the viewing.
    
    Commander Scott

    Most pay-per-view to date has been boxing, which I don't watch, so it
    hasn't affected me.  My personal impression is that the pricing of
    pay-per-view events is prohibitive to me being willing to purchase the
    event.  It needs to be less than the cheapest seat in the stadium, by
    quite a margin, for me to be willing to watch -- possibly about the
    cost of a movie ticket.
    
    Interesting comment I heard was that the migration of boxing to
    pay-per-view, and it's disappearance from the broadcast channels, has
    led to a *decline* in the number of knowledgeable fight fans.  The
    logic is that fighters aren't seen by enough people early on in their
    careers to generate and sustain interest as they come up through the
    ranks.  My closest analog would be tennis, and I can understand it.  If
    I couldn't see early round play in the major events, I wouldn't know
    who Jim Courier or Pete Sampras were (or Chang or Agassi a couple of
    years ago).  Instead, I'd be looking for Conners and John McEnroe.
    
    *If* it can be used to make 'out-of-region' events available to the
    relatively small number of viewers who want that kind of coverage of
    their favorite team, then it may be worthwhile.  Otherwise, I suspect
    that teams and leagues could be killing the goose that lays the golden
    egg, by restricting their audience still further.  
    
    But then, I'm still a firm believer that all away games should be
    available on an over-the-air channel, to encourage interest in and
    attendance at games.
    
    A&W

    
    > Another thing - if I'm paying for a game, there had better not be any
    > commercials on at all.  Strictly the game itself and game analysis. 
    > Elimitating the commercials would shorten the game (old complaint) and
    > provide for flow to the viewing.
    
    Fat chance of this occurring.  If the pay-per-view televisers can stick 
    commercials in during breaks in the action (as they already do on
    sports pay channels), what's to stop them from making even more bucks?
    
    glenn
    

    Pay-per-View sports is in it's infancy.  But you can bet the
    Entertainment World's marketing geniuses have been studying this issue
    since before it was conceived.  Rest assured that it's one and only
    goal will be to make as much money as possible.  I think this means
    that in the end the most exclusive events, the most one-time only, the
    ones that really draw the crowds, will end up on PPV.  And that's not
    just a big boxing events (what a perfect testing ground), but
    eventually will include your prime cut sports events including the
    Super Bowl.
    
    And don't kid yourselves.  We'll all be watching...
    
    Dan

                      <<< Note 161.7 by NAC::G_WAUGAMAN >>>
          -< I doubt it's even noticed by the average sports viewer >-
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 tell that to my clicker and the place where I buy the batteries for said
 clicker.... 

 ;^)

 now if you want to insinuate that I am an above average fan I'd concur..
 
 ;^)
    

    >They could watch the games either on TV or at the rink.
    
    The games were sold out (with most of the seats going to blocks
    bought up by season ticket holders), so "at the rink" was a near
    impossiblity for most.
    
    As for having the option to pay to view...
    
    Not so.  Midwest Sports Channel was the carrier, but they've been
    losing a market share battle with another upstart pay-per-view carrier,
    with most cable systems consequently cut off from MSC because their
    cable system doesn't carry it.  Also, Minnesota - despite being a wealthy 
    state - has relatively low cable subscription.  Therefore, about half
    who wanted to watch it couldn't and ended up listening to it on radio
    (confirmed by the Arbitron ratings for WDGY, who carried the radio
    feed).
    
    The sports bars offered a solution
    
    MrT

    If people are willing to shell out $30 to see Wrestlemania MCMXXLLI,
    then pay per view is here to stay.

    	I'm only asking $1.25 for the Rourke/Gastineau Sliver Screen
    Showdown.

 If you get Bridgette to show and display her tattoo, I'll give you 1.50
 Slasher...

 mike

    Anyone heard if the NFL is going to scramble their signals this season
    like they threatened to last season?  It's time to stir up interest in
    the Steelers Club again down here, but I don't want to get people's
    hopes up if they can't see the games.
    
    	--dan'l

 Haven't heard anything yet, Dan'l.   Might be a bit premature at this
 point.   The NFL didn't start making noise about this issue last year
 until early September when the season was just getting underway.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Dan'l -
    
    Over the winter the NFL announced that their signal will once again be
    in the clear according to Satellite TV Week about 3 months ago.  
    
    Live from Charger Central.......Glenn

    So how many of you sports junkies signed up for the Olympic Triple
    Cast?  A bit rich for my blood.  $170 got you all the coverage, plus
    some souveniers and a VCR-Plus.  I think the weekend package was $90
    (but no extra goodies).

       I'll pass!

    You might as well get a sattelite dish so you can get CBC. Everyone
    knows their Olympic coverage is far superior...
    
    :-)
    
    HTH
    
    Tom

sure is...


BTW - the 3rd game in the NBA playoffs betwen the Sonics and the Warriors is only
going to be shown on PPV here in Seattle. My guess is that a lot of people are
going to be listening to the game on radio....

a single game costs $29.95 I think.....that's rediculous....


Metz

Metz,

Did they give any reason as to why?  Sounds pretty stupid to me...


'Saw

    Wow - 30 bucks to watch a game on TV! What do playoff tickets cost
    these days? It seems about on par with regular season tickets.
    
    Unfortunately, I can see this only growing. People might resist now,
    but in 10 years it could be the norm. I bet a lot of people in the '50s
    couldn't imagine paying for "special" TV programming (cable) either.
    
    Tom

I think PPV could work in the NFL for non-home teams, but only if they
price it in the $5 or less range.  Charging $20-30 is nuts, and I hope
they lose their shirt on it.

I can't imagine a better way to kill fan support than by gouging the 
public like this.  The NHL is considering PPV for future TV revenue, 
but I think they would be better off by going for the maximum exposure.

Mike

I bet you the radio world is going to love this. That will be the
day when I pay $30 bucks to watch a football game at home. NFW.



Steve

    	Digger, just like they learned in boxing the PPV facilitators
    (what a nice term for JERK, eh?) will not allow radio broadcasts
    of PPV events.  I'll just read the paper the next day before dishing
    out cash to watch something on TV.
    
    				/Don

Pay Per Listen??????????? Ridick!



Steve

       The Basketball and football radio networks have contracts. I don't
    think the PPV feceseaters (better word) cain stop them from
    broadcasting games.
                                 Denny

    	But Denny, eventually those radio contracts expire, right? 
    I would think then the PPV "operators" would make their move to
    eliminate radio network contracts, giving them exclusive broadcast
    rights to the event.  I know how devious minds work, after all I
    have one.
    
    				/Don

�I'll just read the paper the next day before dishing
�    out cash to watch something on TV.
    
    A big Broons fan like you and you don't subscribe to NESN?

    	BigMac, NESN costs about $7.00 a month.  I'll pay for it at
    that price.  But when the day comes, and it will, when they want
    $20.00 a game, they can stuff it.

    Rumor has it that ABC may go pay per view for some of their college
    football games this fall.  If the game being televised in your area is
    not to your liking, for a $5-10 fee, you can watch a feed from another
    area of the country.

       It's no rumor, it was in the Glob last week. ABC guy confirmed it.
    Congress will keep an eye on them to make sure they don't put the
    biggest games every week in the smallest coverage, forcing more folks to 
    pay.
                                   Denny

�    Congress will keep an eye on them to make sure they don't put the
�    biggest games every week in the smallest coverage, forcing more folks to 
�    pay.

Whew, that's a relief.  I was really worried that the sleazebags at a major 
national television network would try to gouge the paying public ... but no 
need to worry now ... Congress will look after them.

Bob Hunt

       Yeah, I know Bob, it was our own Ed Markey chairman a the House
    Comm. committee. The same guy who takes big bucks from the cable
    industry but is amazed that people think this could be a problem.
                                     Denny

re .35 HAHAHAHAHAHA

Unfortunately, the Olypics will also be largely PPV.  I believe the package cost
$125 for the duration, and you can choose from packages emphasizing different
sports.  For this, they will have continual coverage of entire events.  IE no 
cuts to features, commercials or other events.

I'll be interested to see the quality of NBCs network coverage.

=Bob=

    Bob, check out .19.  I posted the cost for the Olympic Triple Cast in
    there.

       I heard on CNN lasted night that that satellite the shuttle is
    trying to 'catch' is supposed to be used by NBC for some of their
    gouging this summer from Spain. Anyone know if there's some kinda
    backup?
                                    Denny

>       I heard on CNN lasted night that that satellite the shuttle is
>    trying to 'catch' is supposed to be used by NBC for some of their
>    gouging this summer from Spain. Anyone know if there's some kinda
>    backup?


That astronaut trying to catch that thing reminds me of Ernest Gray,
for NY Giants wide receiver, who never could catch anything....

I know that Intelsat is spending BIG bucks to get this thing into the
right orbit.  

I guess you'll know how much the spent if the prices for the PPV goes up....


'Saw

One report I heard stated that Intelsat was losing a quarter of a
million a day due to the wayward satellite.

I thought the astronaut was more like Howard "Hands of Stone" Cross.

Mike

       Speaking of 'hands a stone', maybe we should send Dick Stuart up
    there to snag that sucker. Or Mike Greenwell!
                                       Denny

Or how 'bout the Immortal Bill Buckner.....

       Buck doesn't count, he wasn't a consistantly bad fielder like the
    others.
                                            Denny

>       Buck doesn't count, he wasn't a consistantly bad fielder like the
>    others.

Yeah, but when it was ALL on the line, he did the SnuffyDance.....


'Saw

�    Congress will keep an eye on them to make sure they don't put the
�    biggest games every week in the smallest coverage, forcing more folks to 
�    pay.

Looks like Congress already has their work cut out for 'em.  I was reading 
that one of the first offerings will be in early September, when ABC will show
ND-Northwestern to most of the country as their primary game and offer 
LSU-Texas A&M and a Pac-10 game (can't recall the teams) as optional PPV games.
By offering a contest that is expected to be nothing short of a major mismatch 
as their primary game, ABC is already trying to force us to pay.

I like the idea of PPV, but only (1) as an option to the game being offered in
your area, and (2) if they can keep the price to around $5 or less.  A good
example for me would've been if they had offered this last year when ABC gave
us the Michigan-Illinois game out here - I would've payed the small fee to get
the ND-Penn State game instead.

The sad reality is, this may only be the beginning.  The day we have to pay for
all major sporting events might be a reality in the next 5 years or so.


Joe 

       I've said before that I'd like to see the NFL go to this. If I don't
    wanna watch Colts-Browns as my 1:00 game I'd like to be able to switch
    to 'Skins-Saints or whatever for maybe $5-$10. Seems fair to me, as
    long as I still have choices on free TV. All this does is make all the
    games Bob Hunt cain pick up on his dish available to everyone for a
    price.
                                                Denny

    	I disagree Joe, even though it's a mismatch Notre Dame would
    draw the bigger audience as opposed to the other game.  But the
    temptation has to be there to take a late season big game and make
    it a regional telecast forcing the rest of the country to pay to
    see it.
    
    				/Don

 I can't believe you guys would actually pay to watch a football game. I'd
 rather give 5 bucks to some homeless bum on the streets than to give 5 bucks
 to the networks/cable companies for a game that should be free. What a country.
 Thanks alot Ronnie......

 mike

       It's called CHOICE Mike. There will still be the same free games
    (hopefully), I'll just be able to pay a few bucks to watch a different
    one. Meanwhile that 'homeless bum' just MIGHT be in a liquor store with
    your 5 bucks.
                                 Denny

    	(hic!) Thanks for the fin Mikey (hic!) 

    
    Ditto, Mike.
    
    The bottom line is greed.  The networks are making a ton of money, so
    it's not like PPV is being proposed to bail them out of a crippling
    financial situation.  
    
    Rumor has it that the big 3 (ABC, CBS, NBC) want to charge viewers just
    like the cable networks do.    
    
    Why should I pay for what's free now?
    
    
    Cath                                        

    
    Being a Giants fan in AZ, I'd be more than willing to give my fin to
    CBS to watch my team instead of the Cardinals.  I'll let Mike watch the
    Cards, since he's given his fiver to a bum.
    
    Brews 

>    Why should I pay for what's free now?
       You won't be under what I proposed. You'll be able to CHOOSE to watch a
    non-local game for a fee. As long as the NFL wants to keep it's
    anti-trust exemption free TV will be around. What's the big deal? You
    cain choose to watch a movie on PPV or choose not to watch it, same
    thing. 
                                      Denny   

The networks may be making money, but they are wicked big time scared by
cable.

There's some move underfoot to make you PAY to get the networks on cable,
otherwise, you'd have to just get if off the air (w/o cable).


Hell, the way I feel, if I'm gonna have to start paying for this stuff,
then cable should make a ton more channels available, or allow people
to CHOOSE their cable company....


'Saw

Tis GREED GREED GREED.  I realize that the first step will be to give viewers a 
choice, but eventually we will probably have to pay for every game we watch 
indivigually.  I'll be pretty teed off to pay to see the Super Bowl, Final Four,
etc.

=Bob=

    Bingo, Saw!
    
    The thing that gets me about either cable in general or cable companies
    is the "packages" they offer. I lived in Boston when the first
    introduced cable in the mid-80s. For $2/month, it was something like 
    53 channels, including Sports Channel (Celtics/Whalers), TBS (Braves/
    Hawks), WOR (Mets, Knicks, Rangers, Nets, Isles, DEBBILS), WPIX (Yankees) 
    USA network (NHL Hockey, occasional soccer) ESPN, SIN Univision (Spanish 
    - soccer, baseball game of the week), plus MTV, VH1, CNN, C-span, and a 
    ton of other channels. A year later, the price went up to $6, then to $12,
    which is still a pretty good deal. 
    
    Acton cable has all these "packages" that offer channels I don't care
    about, but some channels that I do care about are extra. Some, like the
    French CBC station from Quebec that carries the Expos and Habs would be
    nice, but they don't offer it anymore. At least they would have decent
    Olympic coverage :-) What about offering the choice of XX number of 
    channels, mix and match, with a limit to the number of "premium channels" 
    you can get? 
    
    Basically, cable is like heroin addiction. Once they get people used to
    shelling out a few bucks for something they've grown to like, it can be
    difficult to go back to the days of only the 3 networks + a few indies.
    
    Tom   
    

    	If they opened things up and let smaller cable companies compete
    you might get a break on the price. Unfortunately the MegaCable
    companies also own movie channels and sports channels and refuse
    to sell these channels to other cable companies.  It's monopoly
    city and they're rolling in the dough, our dough. 
    
    				/Don

 The point is Denny that PPV movies started that way football and all other
 sports didn't. I don't call up and have them pipe in any of these movies
 and I won't pipe in a football game. The big three aren't hurting for dough
 they're just dam greedy and sick of seeing HBO and others making money for
 nothing. 

       Movies were on free TV before PPV.
                                Denny

I don't think the NFL has an anti-trust exemption. I'm pretty sure that only
MLB has one. 

I don't think that any of the major sports can make it on PPV alone. They'll
have to always offer some form of free TV to hook the suckers ...ahem attract
the customers.....

As far as I'm concerned when/if the super bowl or the world series go to 
PPV they've lost another fan. I've got better things to do with my money.

Does anybody think that the Sox would have as big a following if they were
only shown on NESN? Wouldn't the NHL be bigger if they had a free tv deal?

Metz

In the current issue of Fortune Mag the #4 exec in the US is the President of 
TCI (Television Cable Inc.). This guy is making about $20 million this year 
I will not make him any richer by paying for Sports on TV. 

Jeff

Who will not even pay for HBO, TMC, Disney or wrasslin. 

    Slasher, they ain't rollin' in my dough.  
    
    Mark.

       ...that's because you're still waiting for electricity up there in Cow
    Hampshire!
                                         Denny 8^)

    
    RE .55
    
    Denny, I was referring to the networks' proposed plan to have cable
    subscribers pay for "regular" programming - anything shown on ABC, CBS
    or NBC.  If the networks have their way, you'd be paying for those
    channels just like you pay for NESN or HBO. 
    
    Greed.  It's all greed.  And TV isn't good enough to warrant paying for
    it, IMO.  But, boy, would I miss Seinfeld....   8-)
    
    
    
    Cath

    	Cath, I don't believe you'll actually pay a monthly fee like
    HBO, NESN etc.  The Cable company will have to pay a per subscriber
    fee like they do now to USA or MTV, but undoubtedly the cost will
    be passed along to the consumers.  And since some cable companies are
    locked into contracts that limit their rate increases, they don't want
    to pay for something they get for free now.
    
    				/Don

 Reaching there aren't we Denny? Of course movies were on for free before but
 long after their release not 6 months after. 

> Reaching there aren't we Denny? Of course movies were on for free before but
> long after their release not 6 months after. 


Before the advent of Pay Per View, what basically would happen was that
a hit movie would take approximately a year (or 18 months if a super hit)
to show up on HBO/Showtime/Cinemax/TMC.  The video cassette would hit
the rental places in about 6 months.

Now it seems with PPV that it is coming out about the same time as the
video cassette....


I like cable,  I like PPV (occasionally) but I would NOT like to pay for
network stuff (ABC,CBS,NBC,Fox) that I can get over the airwaves.

If I have to start paying for stuff like that, then I want to be able to
have a HUGE choice of channels from my cable provider.  My cable provider
is actually very, very good, in terms of selection.  My folks live one
town over, 8 miles away, and their cable company "Cox Cable" has a 
paltry selection of channels -- easily 10-15 fewer than what I get.

No wonder we insert a word that rhymes with "mucks" in front of the cable
company name....


'Saw

    Denny, if you climb a tree in my backyard, you can see Seabrook.  Don't
    tell me we don't have juice.  
    
    :^)
    
    Mark.

    
    
    	PPV is still not attractive to me.  Take a recent hit.  On PPV it
    usually costs me 4-5 bucks.  I can rent the same tape at my favorite 
    video store for 1 dollar and at Blockbuster it is 3 dollars.  Not much
    of a difference between BB and PPV, but right now my cable system
    doesn't deliever stereo let alone Dolby Surround.  Since I own a 
    Dolby Surround receiver, I'll stick to the tapes and when I get a few
    more bucks, move to laserdisk.
    
    	As for ABC and the rest, their cost is still to much.  If they were
    to come in at around a dollar or two, then I might opt to watch the
    game of my choice, but at 5 bucks a pop, it still isn't worth it.
    
    	Then maybe I should just buy a dish and pay a subscription fee
    (which along with paying for the dish would be about the same $$ as my
    cable bill) and get to see a lot more of what I want...including the
    Pirates and Steelers plus I'd get stereo too.
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

 �   	Then maybe I should just buy a dish and pay a subscription fee
 �   (which along with paying for the dish would be about the same $$ as my
 �   cable bill) and get to see a lot more of what I want...including the
 �   Pirates and Steelers plus I'd get stereo too.
 
 Or buy a new house with one already installed.   You're right ... the
 subscription fees for sat TV are about the same for cable.   I do pay a
 small fee for the big three networks ... about $3.00 per month included
 with the basic package.
 
 Bob Hunt

Our local PPV has a Tuesday special: any movie for $2.95. My attraction
to PPV is that I can tape anything I buy. With a rental video I need to
procure another VCR or rent their playing thang which mostly are worn
out.

I've got a stereo VCR. I'm thinking seriously about getting some
sub-woofers which do the sounds that I miss most from the theaters.

TTom

    My in-laws gave up on their sattelite dish and went back to being cable
    subscribers.  It cost about the same and they got better reception with
    the cable.  If I had stayed in Austin I probably would have offered to
    take the equipment off their hands primarily so I could see the old
    home town teams more often.

I'll ultimately get a dish I suppose, but I do know that if you have
a driving rainstorm, your coverage can go all to hell....


I occasionally watch PPV, usually for something that I REALLY want to
see and tape, and which I'm sure will be unavailable at the video store
because folks have reserved it three or four weeks in advance.

I have two VCRs and it does come in handy.


'Saw

The owner of the bar I work at spent 4 grand for a dish, thinking that he'd
get everything for "free".  Was he pissed when he found out that he got
absolutely nothing unless he subscribed to one of the several "packages".
Personally, I don't like it.  It's too tedious to switch to different
stations, especially when busy making exotic drinks.  Cable is much easier,
by far.

Gee, I just thought of it- we probably get CBC too!

Hawk

P.S. can anyone (BobHunt?) tell me what CBC's satellite letter/numbers are?

    Sounds like the bar owner should have done some homework before
    shelling out $4k.
    
    Mark.

Can someone give a brief description of the subscription packages?

How many?  How much?  Do you need multiple packages to see more stations?


'Saw

    Just dish out $150 for one of those cable boxes that you can get
    all the movie channels, NESN and PPV on, free.  It more than pays
    for itself...

I agree, Markie, however most people are under the false assumption that once
you get a satellite dish, you get everything.  The dish people never volunteered
this info, and the owner never axed.  I assumed this too.  Just about every
bar patron who hears that we have a dish assumes we get everything too.  And,
I hate having to go into my now routine explanation about why we don't get
everything...

Hawk

>
>    Just dish out $150 for one of those cable boxes that you can get
>    all the movie channels, NESN and PPV on, free.  It more than pays
>    for itself...
>

Big problem with that too.  Seems that the cable companies in this area
have hired a couple of retired State Cops as PIs.  They get the information
from those mail order places, and then show up at your door.  

You have to either prove that you've destroyed the box, hand it over to 
them, or you have to prove you gave it to someone else, who they then go
after.  Not worth it....


'Saw

    You don't have to do anything.  They can't come in your house...
    
    I guess the only way they won't work is if the cable company does
    "something" with it.  What I haven't a clue.  All I know is that
    it was a good deal...

    
 >> Just dish out $150 for one of those cable boxes that you can get
 >> all the movie channels, NESN and PPV on, free.  It more than pays
 >> for itself...
    
     I've a friend who has one and they are an excellent deal. He gets
     virtually every pay-per-view telecast free. The only thing the
     cable companies can do about it is send a "zap" signal down through
     the line to try and blow the chip in his decoder box so when he's 
     not watching it he unhooks it.
    

 "was" is the key word Karen. The magic blackbox that used to tweek the
  The DC tunning frequency to descramble the picture are being overriden
  by a filter now that the cable companys are installing in many areas.
  The more expensive boxes that use quartz tunning still work. Atleast in
  Worcester. 

� P.S. can anyone (BobHunt?) tell me what CBC's satellite letter/numbers are?
 
 CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) is on Anik 1 which is usually
 referred to as 'D1' on your satellite receiver.  Can also be 'A1'.  They
 use a few different transponders (channels) on D1 ... not hard to find.
 
 As for the subscription packages for dishes, they run about the same as
 cable rates.   You can save a lot of money with annual subscriptions but
 you gotta have the scratch to fork over first, of course.   
 
 We go with a monthly package that includes a coupla premium movie channels
 each for about $6 bucks a month or so.   Throw in a few more bucks for
 some more packages ... one for CBS, ABC, NBC ... another for ESPN, TNT,
 TBS, A&E, ... another for MTV, VH-1, NIK, LIF, ... you get the picture.  
 We spend about $35 or so a month.   Disney Channel pays for itself.   A
 big hit with the MicroHUNTs.
 
 Once you pay your subscription, your unique 12 character hex code for your
 descrambler box is entered into some master central database and the
 signals that are then beamed down to your dish carry your authentication
 handshake.  Takes about a second or two to authorize each time you switch
 to a scrambled channel ... if you ain't authorized, you get a "No
 Subscription For This Channel" message on your screen.
 
 The "free" sports events are all up there on a couple of different birds. 
 You justa gotta know where to look.   Needless to say, that's my prime
 reason for using it and liking it.
 
 Bob Hunt

 
> We go with a monthly package that includes a coupla premium movie channels
> each for about $6 bucks a month or so.   Throw in a few more bucks for
> some more packages ... one for CBS, ABC, NBC ... another for ESPN, TNT,
> TBS, A&E, ... another for MTV, VH-1, NIK, LIF, ... you get the picture.  
> We spend about $35 or so a month.   Disney Channel pays for itself.   A
> big hit with the MicroHUNTs.

So there's multiple "channels" per package.  Not like I do now where
I pay for HBO, pay for NESN, pay for Spice (if I had it)....
 
 
> The "free" sports events are all up there on a couple of different birds. 
> You justa gotta know where to look.   Needless to say, that's my prime
> reason for using it and liking it.
 
So these may not necessarily be scrambled channels, you can just get
them by "browsing around"?


I think I understand...not that I will be buying a dish any time soon,
seeing as i just ordered a PC....


'Saw

    
    re: black boxes
    
    	It all depends upon how new your cable system is and if they are
    old, have they installed new equipment.
    
    	Used to be that in order to get HBO, a cable tech would come out
    to your house and remove a filter from your cable line located
    somewhere on the telephone pole.
    
    	But now, cable companies have gotten smarter and have went to 
    addressable boxes.  The cable co. here in Sprinfield can turn your 
    cable on or off from their homebase without sending anyone out.  PPV
    also works in the same way.  You call the number, and they address your
    box from the office and unblock the signal at your box so it can 
    receive the signal.
    
    	So, the days of the black boxes are numbered.  Cable companies also
    don't take kindly to you stealing their service and have really started
    to prosecute owners of those black boxes.  So, before you order one
    of those so-called-get-every-channel black boxes, you'd better
    understand how your cable system delivers its signal to your house.
    
    re: dishes
    
    	For the life of me, no way should anyone receive worse reception
    from a dish than cable.  With a dish, the owner is basically his own
    cable co. and the shorter the run of cable, the better the signal.  On
    the other hand, the cable co. must run its signal through miles of
    cable and amplifiers to reach your house and by the time it gets there,
    the picture isn't as good as what is coming right off the dish.  So,
    if someone has bad reception from their dish, the dish, LNA/LNB,
    receiver or TV could be the problem.  If the dish isn't sited in
    properly that can cause problems too.  As with the old rotor driven 
    tv antennas, a dish is very similar...only instead of aiming for the
    best reception from 50 miles or so, you are aiming a dish at a dot some
    25 K miles high in the sky.  So there ain't much room for error.
    
    	
    	re: bars
    
    	As for bars with dishes, any bar worth its weight will have 2
    dishes with dual feedhorns.  This way they can cover more programming
    and reach the C-band too.
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

    
    re: Saw
    
    	Saw, the packages are just that.  There are many subscribers and
    each subscriber has different packages.  If you like movies, you can
    find a package that gives you more of the movie channels.  If you are
    a sports junkie, then you can find packages that have more sports 
    channels.
    
    	From what I've seen, most packages run around 30 or so channels
    and the content can be very varied.  I believe you can also add stuff
    to your package.  What this basically does is eliminate the home
    shopping club(s) or whatever else bores you on your cable system.
    
    	And I should mention that there are still some freebies up there
    floating around.  Most of the major players are scrambled, but there
    is still a lot of free stuff....but again, this could be junk to you.
    
    	Next time you're in a bookstore, ask for ORBIT magazine.  It's
    about as thick as a PC Sources magazine but it contains a complete 
    listing of EVERYTHING that is on and on what satellite over the next 
    month... In the magazine they have advertisements for most of the
    major players in the subscription market.
    
    	But before you get a dish, get a demo.  Have the guy come out to
    your place and if possible, leave the dish over the weekend (with the
    best installers, yes they do this).  If he won't leave it, make sure
    they do a site survey.  This is to find out that you can see all the
    satellites or most of them (especially the ones that carry the
    programming you want) from your location.  If there is a big tree or
    building in the way, you might not be a good candidate for a dish
    although most problems can be handled with a chainsaw...
    
    	There is a conference on Satellite TV and you should check that
    out before you go off and buy something and then find out it ain't
    what you thought...buyer beware!
    
    
    
    							bill..g.
    

� So there's multiple "channels" per package.  Not like I do now where
� I pay for HBO, pay for NESN, pay for Spice (if I had it)....
 
 Yes.  There are umpteen kazillion different ways to cut-n-paste a lineup
 of different dish services.   You could, if you were a really sick pup,
 call up each provider directly and negotiate an individual deal for just
 that channel itself.
  
� So these may not necessarily be scrambled channels, you can just get
� them by "browsing around"?

 Right.  Anytime I "find" a game up there, it's in the clear.   If I know
 there's gonna be a Braves game on TBS that night, I don't have to sky-surf
 for it ... just tune to G1, 18 and there it is.   But if I want to go and
 find the Blue Jays-Angels game, to use an offbeat example, then I gotta go
 surfin'.
 
 After a while, you get a feel for where they all are.  The CBS-NFL games
 are all on T1 and/or T2.  No need to surf ... just aim the dish and pick
 your game.
 
� I think I understand...not that I will be buying a dish any time soon,
� seeing as i just ordered a PC....
 
 Congratulations on your new PC.  What did you get and did you get a good
 deal ???  Inquiring minds ...
 
 Bob Hunt

re Bill:

	Yeah, I wouldn't go into buying a dish blind.  I've got a 
	cousin who gets one, and according to him (quote)
	
		I get three out of the four satellites there are

	(unquote).  

	Course, he's one of these people that knows everything about
	everything there is to know, which really means that if you
	put his brains up a gnat's ass, it'd be like putting a bb in 
	a boxcar.


	Right now I rent, so I'm not gonna get a dish till I get my
	own place.

	
	When I was in France, our hotel had satellite TV.  The reception
	was VERY good, except on one afternoon where we had a hellacious,
	driving downpour for around 20 minutes.  At that time, the reception
	kind of "snowed out"....


Bob Hunt:

	PC.  I got a Zeos 486 50Mhz, 8meg RAM, 210meg hard drive system.
	I looked around, liked what I saw, and figured I'd get it.

	I always said "Hell, I do this all day for a living, and the
	last thing I want to do is get one of those things for my house".

	Then, my brother got one around Christmas time, and I've seen how
	much he uses it and for what.  Add to that the fact that more
	and more of our software we right is gonna end up PC based also,
	and it's about time the Chainsaw lairnt hisself some PC....

	(Besides, I've finally got a system that I can get down and 
	 dirty with.....8^))

    	Got some free software with the PC, and can't wait to get it.

'Saw

Friggin' people starving out there, and the Chainsaw buys a friggin' PC so he
cain weenie-out in front a_his friends and family at home.  Unreal....

:-)				:-)				:-)

Hawk

    Can the cable company ping an illegal box if a VCR is in the way?
    
    Mark.

>Friggin' people starving out there, and the Chainsaw buys a friggin' PC so he
>cain weenie-out in front a_his friends and family at home.  Unreal....

Yes, but wif a PC and my creative juices flowing, I can write about the
plight of people starving out there, and get published, and tell the
world about their plight will raking in big bucks at the same time...

And he, I've always said, if you got a weenie, use it....8^)


And Hawk, I'll bet you got a bar in your home.  Even if it's like my
bar -- under the kitchen sink!  8^)


'Saw

    re: .93
    
    Sure they could signal my box to turn on channels or reset the box even
    when a VCR was in the way. Their ping better not harm a VCR or they
    could have some real irate customers on their hands.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Of course those black boxes are illegal and we wouldn't want to be
    using company resources to advocate doing something illegal now would
    we?

    re: .96
    
    I asked someone about these - like how people could sell them, etc.
    
    Answer: producing, selling, buying, installing them is perfectly legal.
    It only becomes illegal when you turn them on and use them. 
    
    The Crazy Met
    

Kind of like radar detectors in Connecticut.

You can buy them, possess them, even possess them in your car, but
if it's "installed" or being used, you're breaking the (most assinine) law.


'Saw

    RE: .94
    	Hey 'Saw why don't your write about your fascination for Tarheel
    women and how they get you to say nice things about Dean Smith?
    You can call black box owners criminals if you want to, but nothing
    beats monopolistic/criminalistic practices of the cable companies.
    Course they get a carte blanche from Congress to steal, so it's
    okay.
    
    				/Don

>    	Hey 'Saw why don't your write about your fascination for Tarheel
>    women and how they get you to say nice things about Dean Smith?
>    You can call black box owners criminals if you want to, but nothing
>    beats monopolistic/criminalistic practices of the cable companies.
>    Course they get a carte blanche from Congress to steal, so it's
>    okay.
    
Slasher, she was NOT a tar-heel woman.  She told me she was from SOUTH
Carolina.  That'd make her a Gamecock woman or a Tiger woman....

I don't feel that black box owners are crooks, I just said that in Ct, the
cable companies have employed former State Police to "investigate" people
who purchase the boxes.

The one MAJOR gripe I have with my cable company is that their entire signal
is scrambled coming INTO the house.  Therefore, I HAVE to have a converter,
and cannot make use of a cable ready TV.  If I am going to record one channel
and watch another I have to have TWO converters....

Other than that, they provide reasonable service for a reasonable price, 
with a lot of channels to chose from.

My folks on the other hand, have Cox Cable in Glastonbury.  They have
far fewer channels available to choose from than I do (10-15 less) and
have really lousy service.  It's no wonder we insert a word that rhymes
with "ducks" before the cable company name....


'Saw

    If cable TV goes through cable why would this hypothetical situation
    work?
    
    
    Say somebody's cable gets turned off.
    
    While retuning their cable ready TV (if that makes a difference) to try
    to get 'regular' broadcast channels, lo and behold, there VH1.  Not the
    best reception, but yeah, that's it.  Flip, tune, flip.  Lo and behold,
    now there's the Comedy Channel.  And ESPN, although it's hard to get
    in.  And the Weather Channel.
    
    Our hypothetical somebody goes over to the cable outlet in the wall and
    looks.  Aye, he/she had disconnected the coaxial so there's nothing
    feeding  the TV but rabbit ears that came with the set.
    
    
    The scrambler box sitting on top of the TV doesn't work, period, since
    the cable company has turned it off.  ESPN, which used to come
    scrambled up in the basic only service that our hypothetic subscriver
    used to get, is unscrambled through the rabbit ears.  
    
    
    Anyone got a hypothetical answer?
    
    
    kimBO  :)
    
    

>    While retuning their cable ready TV (if that makes a difference) to try
>    to get 'regular' broadcast channels, lo and behold, there VH1.  Not the
>    best reception, but yeah, that's it.  Flip, tune, flip.  Lo and behold,
>    now there's the Comedy Channel.  And ESPN, although it's hard to get
>    in.  And the Weather Channel.
    
If the cable is still in the TV, there is an answer.


When I first moved in and got hooked up, I planned on using my VCR as
a 'converter' (ie to change channels etc) as it had been at my previous
place.

I started to program in the channels I wanted, and some came in (albeit
with a lot of fine tuning.)  ESPN was one of them.  

It was only after a call to the cable company asking why I could only
get a couple of channels that I found out that ALL channels were scrambled.

So, even though the cable is "disconnected", it was just turned back
to all-scrambled and some still come through...


What's the name of this hypothetical cable company, and would it be
hypothetically in the Northeast corner?


'Saw

    
    
    	Also, there is the possibility of leakage.  All coaxial cable is
    not the same.  If a splice is not done correctly or is the cable is not
    shielded properly, you might get a 'bleeding' signal from a cable that
    is turned off when if fact the signal might be coming from a neighbors
    cable that is radiating.
    
    re: boxes
    
    	Most of the box manufacturers make you sign a waiver that states 
    you will not use the box to intercept signals from a cable co.  In this
    manner, they escape a lot of the legal responsibilities.
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

>    	Most of the box manufacturers make you sign a waiver that states 
>    you will not use the box to intercept signals from a cable co.  In this
>    manner, they escape a lot of the legal responsibilities.
    

This is similar to what they do for those little filter boxes which
defeat copy protects on videotapes.  The market those as devices to
enhance viewing pleasure of videotapes that you are watching...

'Saw    

    Hypothetically, the cable is *not* connected to anything.  
    Zippo.  The Hypothetical TV is using rabbit ears ONLY.  If it's
    leaking, it's leaking through the air.
    
    The cable company locally is....is....Telemedia cable  (almost forgot).
    
    The box isn't on, isn't hook into the TV.
    
    Somebody said FM?  
    
    kimBO the KuriousBO
    
    

Hypothetically speaking, you should submit that hypothetical
happening to the Fox Network show "Sightings"....


'Saw

    KimBo,
    Er, that was a flippant answer by moi= Freakin(f-----)Magic.
    further translated into I dunno and was jokin' ya.
    
    Sorry,
    MikeL
    
    
    

    
    re: -2, 3
    
    	The cable is indeed leaking somewhere.  I used to live in a couple
    of areas where the cable signal leaked into my T.V.  No cable was
    hooked up, but the leakage was so bad, I'd get ghosting from the cable
    channels.
    
    	I also know that some older (maybe even newer) cable systems used
    to transmit some of their signals via microwave.  Anyone remember
    those antenna devices you could buy or build that would pick up HBO?
    This was because HBO was being linked around different cable companies
    via microwave antennas.  Now, what you are seeing via your rabbit ears,
    might be from a cable co. transmitting with microwave.
    
    	Don't knock it...
    
    	I also remember the fight between dish owners and companies that
    used satellites to deliver their programming to different parts of the
    country.  Most dish owners were saying that the air waves are free, and
    if you don't want me to pick it up, keep it out of my yard/airspace!
    Hence the majority of programmers went to scrambling their signals.
    
    	So, if you don't have the cable hooked up and it is effectively
    turned off, but you still get a picture through your rabbit ears, I
    don't think there is a thing they can do..  One other thing, do your
    neighbors have cable and if not, do they see the same thing on their
    sets?
    
    
    							bill..g.