Conference 7.286::sports_91

    The use of American flags on uniforms to support the U.S. troops raises
    some interesting questions.  
    
    It didn't seem to be too big of a deal in the NFL because the league
    doesn't operate outside of the and there aren't many in the NFL who
    aren't American Citizens (not that I can think of, anyway).  The NHL
    made a nice gesture in the All Star game by wearing the U.N. symbol -
    afterall the league operates in two countries and has players from
    several different countries.  I did notice that the Bruins are wearing
    US flags now, though.  I haven't seen too many NBA games.  Are they
    doing anything similar?
    
    And then we have the incident at Seton Hall.
    
    In many people's minds, the U.S. flag symbolizes alot more than support
    of the troops.  Perhaps the idea behind the gesture could be better
    represented.

    I find this flags-on-uniforms act repugnant.  The kid at Seton Hall
    probably didn't anticipate the reaction his stand would entail cuz
    America is basically a nation that hates the Constitution for which
    the flag stands.  It's a morbidly queer fact that "patriotism" means
    support for the war shot up from 40% to 80% once we started dropping
    bombs.  Even queerer is the fact that Americans actually still accept
    the argument that carpet bombing a nation via 60,000 sorties isn't
    about blowing Iraq back to a preindustrial economy, and that Saddam
    refused to negotiate.
    
    We've devolved into a subdemocratic nation whose masses respond to
    brazen propaganda and wartime agitprop like Pavlov's dogs to the
    smell of red meat.  Instead it's all yellow ribbons, tear-jerking
    pieces about families heroically withstanding the emotional stress
    of "our boys" suffering the pain of dropping kilotons of explosives
    on a demonized dictator halfway 'round the world, and nonstop press
    conferences of self-satisfied generals lying their asses off onstage
    trying to become media stars.
    
    The Seton Hall incident proves that freedom of expression in this
    country is tolerated only where no serious disagreement is found.
    In matters of substance, where Russia is a nation that restricts
    information and has propaganda that almost nobody believes, America
    is a nation that has information overload and has propganda that
    almost EVERYBODY believes.
    
    Which would make the better sheep pasture?
    
    Much as the NCAA has been prostitute to promote low academic standards,
    it's now hard at work on behalf of propaganda and stupidity.
    
    MrT

So who do you think George's next running mate is going to be? 

Colin Powell or Norman Schwartzkopf ?


Perhaps somebody should come up with a patch that says...

"I support the armed forces in the Gulf"

Then the players should be given the choice if they want to wear any 
propoganda on their uniforms at all. 

Of course the leagues wouldn't want to upset the great media propoganda 
machine..


the government, the media and the Sports bodies....linked arm in arm on this one.


Metz
 

 I've heard Colin Powell mentioned as a political candidate several times
 already.
    
 He'd be perfect for Bush's trigger happy mentality ... his trusty pistol
 by his side, so to speak.  
 
 And Colin Powell would also give Bush some very undeserved brownie points
 with minorities, too.   Bush hasn't done a damn thing to heal race
 relations in this country yet if he pulls Powell into his camp, he'll kick
 a plank out from underneath the Jesse Jackson faithful.   Unfortunately.
 
 Schwartzkopf should become a football coach after he retires from Desert
 Storm.  I wouldn't let him anywhere near the civilian controls of this
 country.  He's a helluva general but Ike really ought to be the last
 Army general to lead this country.   Too dangerous.   Anybody remember Al
 Haig ???
 
 Bob Hunt

 >I've heard Colin Powell mentioned as a political candidate several times
 >already.
    
    Okay, he's earning his living now, but run on the same ticket of the
    man who campaigned using the Willie Horton fear element!?!  I hope
    Powell's got more integrity that that...
    
    Course, Bush's handlers would never let a black man get too
    far...
    
    Dan

    The Bruins are wearing both American and Canadian flags on their
    helmets.
    The Wailers are wearing an American flag.
    The Canadiens are wearing the Canadian flag on their helmets.
    I believe the Penguins are wearing the American flag and the UN flag
    on theirs. (not sure on this one...)
    The Celtics have an American flag on theirs...a lot of college/high
    school teams are too.
    
    I don't necessarily think that its in support of the war; put support
    of the troops over there.
    
    Here in WMO there are lots of people with American flags and yellow
    ribbons...not in support of the war; in support of our troops.  At
    any rate, those who have flags were not forced to put them up...those
    who chose not to were in no way looked upon as 'bad'.  Myself, I have
    both friends and relatives over in Saudi Arabia, so I find that the
    sports teams (which are such an integral part of a lot of peoples
    lives) also serve as a reminder for me not to forget those who fight
    in war.  I've been to a VA hospital and the veterans that are there
    from past wars are forgotten.
    
    As long as the players aren't coerced into wearing them, then I feel
    they should do it.

    Collan Powell, isn't that what Reagan had to have surgery on toward the
    end of his last term...yeah, that's it...and Bush was President for a
    day or two.
    
    	--dan'l

I don't think you can compare Al Haig and Norman Schwarzkopf.

Al "I'm in charge here" Haig didn't have the brains God gave geese.

Schwarzkopf has a genius level IQ (about 170 I believe) and most
of the interviews I've read on him say the most important thing in
his life is his family....

Regarding the yellow ribbons, I feel it's in support of the troops.
In my case it is.  I have a friend over there.  You all know that.
He's a tank commander, and golly, you know the first thing that the
Iraqis will be shootin' at is our tanks.  Am I worried?  Damn straight.

Is the ribbon a symbol of support for Bush, and all those other things
I keep hearing I'm supporting because I've got a yellow ribbon?  Nope.
It's for one guy I know, and for a lot of plain folks that I don't,
that are a long way from home, and in need of some support.

Is the yellow ribbon the only way I support them?  Nope.  At least
one letter a week goes to an APO address in NY.  Two a week if I
can find the time...


Regarding SPORTS and politics, if the Iraqis don't pull out like the
radio is reporting they might, then every game this season I'll be
wearing a yellow wrist band...for one guy I know, and a lot of plain
folks I don't.

Just some humble opinions I decided to share....

'Saw

  Why weren't they all wearing flags before? In light of this morning's news
 that Suddam might be willing to withdraw under certain conditions what is
 Bush's response? Also in light of the door possibly opening up for peace why
 is Bush still bombing? Couldn't be an excuse to raise taxes or to keep his
 warmonger supporters happy as the cry for new weapons continues? Or to keep
 the pentagon budget at an all time high? Naw Georgie just wants to liberate
 the Kuwaitians...

 Last I heard, Bush was still making plans to go to Kenebunk this weekend
 instead of imediately get in touch with Bagdad...what a joke. he's probably
 disappointed that it just might end....

 mike

Funny thing happened... at least I thought so.

After yesterday saying I wasn't flying any flags or yellow ribbons
anywhere on my person, my cube, my home, or my property.... when I got
home last night, I was so flabbergasted I almost ran over the mailbox.
On my front porch is a big wreath, with a yellow ribbon across it, and a
bunch of little red, white, and blue ribbons dangling from it. Someone
where my wife works was making these things, and she scarfed it up. She
has all the taste of a drunken comanchero sometimes. 

I never went in much for the yellow ribbons because they remind me of
Tony Orlando and Dawn.... which I thought was a truly dork group.

Re: flags.... I fly mine on appropriate holidays. To me, it doesn't mean
`Support the Troops' or any other damned message. It's the symbol of the
country, of all that's best about the country, of the rights which we
enjoy in this country, and of the people who have served this country.
As far as I'm concerned, flying the flag is just an indication of
respect for the ideals of your country. Period.

Mike JN

Actually, I read an article on the origin of the Yellow Ribbon.

It seems that it can be traced back to a John Wayne western about the
Cavalry called "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon"...  If I remember the movie
correctly, there was a parallel between her ribbon and the Yellow
neckerchiefs the Cav wore (still do, in fact).

The song "Tie A Yellow Ribbon" was written for the POWs in Vietnam,
according to this article.

I never much cared for Tony Orlando and Dawn, myself.

As for my flag, I've flown it day and night since my buddy went to the
gulf.  (Kind of like that old expression "Keep the home fires burning").

When I know he's safe, and back where he belongs it will resume it's
normal Up in the Morning, Down at Sunset routine....

Oooh-Rah!

'Saw

    
    Funny, but I thought the Tony Orlando song referred to a guy who was
    getting out of the slammer ("I've done my time...do you still want
    me...etc.")
    
    I do remember a basic training cadence that went "she wore a yellow
    ribbon...she wore it for her trainee/soldier who was far far away.."
    
    Live and learn.
    
    Dickstah
    

    On Schwarzkopf: His father was an officer in some big city police
    force and, by way of unbelievable coincidence, after having been
    run out of that force ended up working in Tehran as director of 
    security for the mideast's first-ever democratically-elected
    leader, Mossadegh of Iran.  Schwarzkopf's father was part of an
    acknowledged plot directed by the the Dulles brothers (State/CIA)
    that overthrew Mossadegh after he passed legislation calling for
    partial Iranaian ownership of ARAMCO and BP oil operations there.
    Mossadegh and electoral democracy went out, the Shah was put in place,
    the Iranians to this day hold a huge grudge against America, and we
    are constantly reminded that Israel is the only democracy in the 
    mideast [sic].  Oh, and both Dulles brothers retired to sizable incomes
    with major oil companies.
    
    MrT  

 Schwarzkopf's father was chief of police in Newark, New Jersey, and was
 one of the principal law enforcement officers involved in the
 investigation of the famous early 1930s' Lindbergh baby kidnapping and
 murder.
    
 I didn't say he was an exact replica of Al Haig in an earlier note.  My
 point is that this country has mixed the military and civilian leadership
 roles before and has had mixed success with it.
 
 George Washington was undoubtedly a superb general and a superb choice for
 first President.   Ulysses Grant was a horrible President.   Dwight
 Eisenhower was an average President.   Douglas MacArthur would have been a
 horrible President but he was one of the all-time great generals.  And so
 on ...
 
 I think we run significant risks when we elect a military commander to the
 Presidency.    Schwarzkopf would scare me for just that reason.   
 
 I mean we've already got Bush pointing his trigger finger at the bombing
 run tapes on the tube and whispering "Boom!".   Is it any wonder he's
 skeptical of Radio Baghdad's message from earlier today.  He'd have to
 stop saying "Boom!" before he's had enough fun.
    
 Bob Hunt

    Many of the replies in this topic are severely deviating from the base
    note and ignoring the requests in that note.  Before it turns into
    another Mid East topic I respectfully suggest that we bring it back on
    topic.  Further totally political discussions will be returned to the
    author and deleted.

    It's wrong to require players, use players, and the institutions they
    represent to promote political approval of a war that hardly qualifies
    as a WWII-style "good war" given that nearly 50% of the population 
    dispproved of it going in.
    
    Ftm, I've always felt that playing/singing the national anthem before
    sporting events is creepy.  America is all about individual freedom and
    distrust of centralized authority, or used to be.  So why should sports
    be involved in coercing citizens into religio-political pledges of
    fealty?
    
    Clearly implied in the flag thing is "agree or else."
    
    It would be more in keeping with the true ideals of the nation to recite
    a few key phrases of the Consitution or Bill of Rights to the crowd,
    have the crowd applaud the freedoms they represent, and then tip-off.
    
    Worship of empty symbols amounts to idolatry.  Just axe Chris Knorr,
    who's living a nightmare of chinese-food recurring hunger pangs pursuing
    his false idol in his False Temple.
    
    Big10 Tom

    It used to be that attending a university meant identifying closely
    with the ideals the university stood for.  Being a student was a
    privilege.  If the university Dons decided to take a stand on something
    and you disagreed, you were invited to change your opinion or
    matriculate your butt into somebody else's hallowed halls.
    
    All that changed with Vietnam.  I'm a Vietnam vet and didn't appreciate
    a lot that happened on the campuses while I was overseas.  But I think
    a lot of the "support the troops" stuff on campus is a misguided
    attempt to avoid what happened during 'Nam.  Making athletes wear the
    flag because they represent the school and OUR SCHOOL SUPPORTS THE
    TROOPS seems like an attempt to roll back the clock to the days when
    the school was run by people who discouraged women and people who
    weren't caucasian to stay in their own schools.
    
    I think the tradition of singing the national anthem is a little
    different.  I don't see it as coercing people to take an oath of
    fealty; it see it as a reminder that the ideals of the sport are the
    ideals of the country -- fair play, giving your best, etc.
    
    Dave W. 

    re 18
    
    Funny story.  Reminds me of our graduation ceremony.  Our valedictorian
    and most of the award-winning students were all radicalized by the war
    in Nam, and had in fact participated in a number of demonstrations about
    town outside of school (a dangerous activity in Indianapolis, the most
    right wing city in 'Merica, IMNSHO).  Anyways, our valedictorian was Mr.
    Perfect clean-slate absolutely-no-problem loved-by-all-authorities.  So
    suffice it to say that they were stunned when he began his speech. Instead
    of the usual tripe about "years ahaid a us" and "carving our paths" and
    so forth he launched into a diatribe about lying governments and misguided
    policy and State Department elitists outta touch and military-industrial
    complex feeding off of minority youth and tax dollars.  
    
    At first people gasped.  Then arguments started.  Then our group of rads
    implemented the plan and chained ourselves across the stairs the grads
    had to go up to receive their diplomas.  Ayn (the valedictorian) also
    refused to relenquish the podium.  The principal stalled for awhile, then
    was forced to call the police in to forcibly remove us.  The rednecks 
    got hot under the hot sun and a few fist fights and a lot of screaming
    matches broke out.
    
    Our graduation ceremony was the only one on the Eyewitness News that
    year!  And it was the only useful one, too.
    
    MrT
    
    
    

From .17
�    It's wrong to require players, use players, and the institutions they
�    represent to promote political approval of a war that hardly qualifies
�    as a WWII-style "good war" given that nearly 50% of the population 
�    dispproved of it going in.
  
From .20  
�    Funny story....
�    suffice it to say that they were stunned when he began his speech. Instead
�    of the usual tripe about "years ahaid a us" and "carving our paths" and
�    so forth he launched into a diatribe about lying governments and misguided
�    policy and State Department elitists outta touch and military-industrial
�    complex feeding off of minority youth and tax dollars.  
�    .
�    .
�    .
�    Our graduation ceremony was the only one on the Eyewitness News that
�    year!  And it was the only useful one, too.
    
      Wow!  So you feel its wrong to require players, use players, and the
      institutions they represent to promote political approval of a war,
      yet your class used other classmates to promote the disapproval of
      a war; and from your note ("and it was the only useful one, too") this
      appears to be okay?  Contradictory notes to me if ever I saw 'em.

You just haven't caught on yet, Wheels.

When left wing pin haided liberals decide to disrupt the lives of a
lot of hardworking people, damage property, and generally act like louts
in order to make their whiney little statements... that's called Freedom
Of Speech. They like to vary their approach... from apologistic, head in
the sand mumblings, to sky is falling, only *WE* know what is really
happening rantings.

Anyone who chooses to take exception to (or heaven forbid, rebut) their
nonsense becomes a rednecked shill for the military-industrialist
elitists who are responsible for everything that is wrong in the world. 

Unfortunately, the media caters to this type of behavior. The best thing
to do is just ignore them. After awhile, their own whining drives them
to distraction and they disband.( Although they do reform again as soon
as another cause rears its ugly haid ).

Mike JN

    The Worcester T&G ran an interview with Bill Walton on Sunday.  Based
    on Bill's history as a protester while at UCLA, someone sought out his
    opinion on the Lokar affair.  Bill basically said that he's sorry Lokar
    left.  He applauded Lokar's protest, but admonished him for not
    sticking it out.

    
>      Wow!  So you feel its wrong to require players, use players, and the
>      institutions they represent to promote political approval of a war,
>      yet your class used other classmates to promote the disapproval of
>      a war; and from your note ("and it was the only useful one, too") this
>      appears to be okay?  Contradictory notes to me if ever I saw 'em.


 Wheel, I don't see how T's class used other students to promote their
 disapproval. If the whole student body had been used I doubt there would
 have been any fistfights and the demonstration probably would have been
 something like all kids refusing to accept their diplomas.

 Dave you make some interesting points about the national anthem. I was
 definately siding with T on this one but would like to believe it's about
 fair play as you say. Anyone know how the playing of the national anthem
 at all sporting events got started and why?

 The flag on the uniforms is a definate false sign (IMO) that we are all 
 together on the war. Another Big Brother tatic so to speak. It's pretty
 bad that in these supposedly free states that you cannot bring a sign or
 pennant into a game which supports the war effort because if you allow
 that in you have to allow signs and pennants that are anti-war and heaven
 forbid that happens....very sad the way sports and all of tv are being
 used to promote the war.......

 mike

    > He applauded Lokar's protest, but admonished him for not sticking
    > it out.
    
    Admonished him as he should've.  Apparently Bill agrees with me that
    this kid was_a hired gun.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

re the National Anthem:

	I'm not sure exactly how that got started, but from what I understand
	it was in the days following the start of WWII, and started with
	baseball first.  Kind of a symbol of national unity.



And fwiw, sometimes people just read way too much into stuff.  I mean,
the National Anthem is more like a tradition today, and not coercing
anyone into a nationa pledge of allegiance to our country and its
policies.

And saying that you love America does not necessarily mean that you're
embracing every single policy decision of the American government.
That's what being American is all about...the right to have a different
opinion without fear of being sent to "Siberia" for having it....

'Saw

 Hawk,
 
 I saw the *EXACT* same two pictures in my local paper here on Saturday
 morning.  The front page had the widow at Arlington with her stunned kids
 and the back page of the front section had the smiling thumbs up warlord
 at the Raytheon plant.   Unfold the paper and the two pictures are nicely
 juxtaposed, left and right.
 
 Made my blood boil just a little harder ...   I voted twice for Jimmy
 Carter, skipped the Mondale fiasco altogether, and then pulled the lever
 for Dukakis.  I am *PROUD* to be an American and boast about that.  No
 thumbs up blood on my hands.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.  Reagan gave a speech last week and he admitted quote-unquote that he
 "may have committed a boner" in helping arm Iraq to the teeth during his
 tenure.   No kidding, Gipp, no freakin' kidding.

Well, I suppose as long as we're calling for apologies maybe we
should ask for these too:

	- Saddam can apologize to Kuwait for the raping and pillaging
	  that he propagated on their country after he took it over.
          Fortunately, we won't have to make the newspapers apologize
	  for this because they didn't print any pictures to spoil our
	  Saturday morning breakfast.
	
	- All of our soldiers over there should apologize for doing what
	  they were ordered to do and killing folks.  This worked really
	  well after Vietnam -- we ought to try it again.

	- Jane Fonda should apologize for not getting her fanny over their
	  yet to sit on a SCUD launcher.

	- The folks at Raytheon should apologize to us for chosing to
	  make their living the way they do and feeling pride for doing
	  a good job.

	- Hell, I should apologize because no doubt some of the software
	  I've worked on has in turn been used to manufacture parts which
	  might ultimately result in weapons.


I guess if we're gonna call for *some* apologies and hang our heads in
sorrow of *some* things, we oughta go for the whole nine yards, eh?


'Saw

good points, mac and hawk.....

    
    >> He applauded Lokar's protest, but admonished him for not sticking
    >> it out.
    >
    > Admonished him as he should've.  Apparently Bill agrees with me that
    > this kid was_a hired gun.
    
    You're unreal, Chris, absolutely freakin' unreal.  Beyond the fact that
    Walton was obviously referring to Lokar's principles, and not his
    status as "hired gun", Lokar has already gone on record as stating that
    he would have stayed had he not feared for the safety of his pregnant
    wife.  He figured that it probably didn't make sense to bring his child
    into this world in a country where he and his wife were the object
    of so much misplaced anger and hatred.  Can't say that I blame him...
    
    On a related note, Seton Hall announced that they have extended Lokar's
    scholarship if he ever decides to come back.  Being a hired gun,
    though, he probably won't...
    
    glenn
     

    I'm sure Lokar would've stayed Glenn.  No question in my mind,
    actually.
    
    Ya see, Hired Guns usually wait til *after* hoops season to skip town.
    
    ;^)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    I think someone was feeding Walton some of 'Saw's SPORTSshrooms.  Big
    Bill also said stuff about sports being a microcosm of society and that
    he didn't see anything wrong with the flags and the yellow ribbons and
    players expressing their views of the Gulf situation in whatever manner
    they felt comfortable with.

If that Vegetarian Dorkhaid said microcosm of society, I think Frankwa
should sue him for plagiarism.

Mike JN

>If that Vegetarian Dorkhaid said microcosm of society, I think Frankwa
>should sue him for plagiarism.

Agreed....where's my lawyer, where's that Judge.  Sounds like we
need a SPORTS trial!

Who'll represent me????

'Saw

RE: .25
> The flag on the uniforms is a definate false sign (IMO) that we are all 
> together on the war. Another Big Brother tatic so to speak. It's pretty
> bad that in these supposedly free states that you cannot bring a sign or
> pennant into a game which supports the war effort because if you allow
> that in you have to allow signs and pennants that are anti-war and heaven
> forbid that happens....very sad the way sports and all of tv are being
> used to promote the war.......

I haven't read this whole topic yet (it would take about 3 days with my 
system's response time), so sorry if this is redundant.

Have any athletes tried to refuse having the flag on their uniform??  I mean if 
Larry Bird said "I won't wear a flag on my uniform" would he be made to sit 
out?  I'm just curious as to how many athletes are being forced to wear the 
flag if they don't want to.

Scott

    I think very few athletes would speak up against wearing the flag. 
    Most athletes seem to be (at least from my experience) politically
    neutral and very few are bred to go against a coach or management if
    the coach or management wants them to do something.
    
    The only thing athletes get upset at management for is not getting
    their money.
    
    John

    re: .25                          
    
    Mike,
    
    The only reason I say he used the class, was had after I went to school
    and was ready to receive my diploma and some selfish idiot decided what
    should be a day for me to remember MY achievements; he took it upon
    himself to ruin my day.  I certainly don't think every member of that
    graduating class enjoyed having one of life's special triumph's spoiled
    by the callousness of some others.
    
    There's nothing wrong in standing up for your rights....just so long as
    you don't infringe upon anothers.

 Ok Wheel, I see you're point and agree. I guess that the valdicktorian
 felt that this was his best way to reach the most people he could with
 his view points. It's too bad what it escalated too...

 Chris if Locar had no intent on getting his degree why was he back here?
 He had some big publicity last year off of a few of his games. 41 points
 scored in one nationally televised contest as a matter of fact. He certainly
 could have jumped to the Italian league. The Dove had to be forced back.
 Gaze I'll give you....

 mike

    re: maybe nobody forces players to wear the flag
    
    When you're on a team, it's a mortal sin to do anything which
    undermines team spirit, esprit de corpse, fraternal butt slapping,
    and all that stuff.  Especially on a college team, where you're sposed
    to be a dumb athalete who don't know Patriots from Paterno.
    
    College sports is a lot like the Marines, eh, Mike JN?
    
    Dave W.

    To me, the singing/playing of the national anthem is great.  It helps
    to remind me of of the country that I live in.  Sure, we got problems. 
    Lots of them.  But, we've got some damn good things going for us, too.
    I don't remember anyone referring to the USA as Utopia.  Matter of
    fact, democracy has been called the worst form of government, save all
    the rest.
    
    So, for those who seek perfection, you'll have to look somewhere else. 
    It's not here.  However, you are free to try and change things to what
    you perceive as "perfection."
    
    Don't forget, tho, that I, too, am free to do the same, and you and I
    may go head-to-head on some issues, depending on our individual
    outlooks and values.
    
    As far as wearing flags on uniforms, helmets, etc., I think it should
    be up to the individual.  If the flag is a symbol of this country,
    then how can anyone insist on someone else wearing it?  By this very
    act, they are violating a person's rights.  
    
    Lee

    This whole Marco Lokar incident struck me in a different way. Sure, 
    he has just as much right in expressing his views and not wearing a flag.
    Sure, anyone who disagrees with his view has the right to tell him so.
    
    The real issue here is the total lack of comprehension of Americans in
    general on how foolish they appear to the outside world. (How often have
    we heard news reports of a plane crash, where "300 people were killed, 235 
    of them American"? Who CARES what nationality they are?) For an Italian 
    citizen to choose not wear the American flag is bad PR at worst. I can't 
    blame him for not wanting his kid to be born in the US after the inhumane 
    jingoist wagon jumping he's experienced. 
    
    Maybe it's the concept of the EuroCitizen that we Americans don't seem
    to understand. As an Italian, Lokar regularly sees visitors from other 
    countries in Italy, or he can drive a couple of hours to any number of 
    very different countries, like France, Switzerland, Germany, Austria or 
    Yugoslavia. By being used to regular contact with foreigners, Europeans 
    generally are more acknowledging of the existence of other cultures.
    Sure, they may dislike the Germans (since they have become the de facto
    "Ugly Americans" in recent years), but they grudgingly accept that
    Germans are a cretain way because of their culture, history etc. No one
    seemed to want to consider that Lokar may have a different way of
    looking at a particular issue, based on his non-American background.
    
    Some Americans might have trouble seeing the difference between two
    types of foreigners in America: Lokar is here for a degree or just to play
    basketball, depending on who you talk to, but will eventually go back
    to Italy to live. The other type is the typical immigrant, people 
    from a poorer country, looking to settle here permanently. Hard to
    believe, but Lokar probably didn't WANT American citizenship before all
    this happened, and it's safe to say that he doesn't want it now.   
    
    Is it any wonder why Americans are generally not well liked abroad? Why
    is it that Americans are often involved in a disproportionate number of
    terrorist attacks?  Our government has something to do with it, yes,
    but I would guess it would have a lot more to do with the kind of
    attitude Marco Lokar was shown than a lot of people realize.
    
    Tom
                                                       

    re.48
    
    An excellent note.
    
    re 42
    
    John , another factor is also the treatment that many athletes get when
    they do something that is, shall we say, 'politically incorrect'.
    Especially in team sports. Look how quick Isiah Thomas broke under the
    pressure of the 'crusader' Bweet Moose^&%*er. Look at how Kareem and
    Walton were seen for a long time as being 'inconoclastic (sp) '- to be
    gentle about it. Muhammad Ali got very little support from boxing or
    other boxers.
    
    To stand in sports is often to stand alone.
    
    Doc

>    Is it any wonder why Americans are generally not well liked abroad? Why
>    is it that Americans are often involved in a disproportionate number of
>    terrorist attacks?  Our government has something to do with it, yes,
>    but I would guess it would have a lot more to do with the kind of
>    attitude Marco Lokar was shown than a lot of people realize.


Wow.  I could enter tomes about this.

I've notice many things in this arena.  One reason why Americans are disliked
abroad is that American attitudes are as expansive as the American country.
American's tend to have this "conquor all" attitude, and come across as
loud, obnoxious, pushy, and conceited.

The one thing I learned very early on in European travel (taught to me
by a German friend, who much to DEC's loss no longer works for us) is for
an American abroad to be *unobtrusive*.  That way, you at least don't get
them disliking you BEFORE they've had a chance to get to know you.


On the other hand, Europeans don't exactly win many prizes either, when
it comes to American attitudes.  While in France, I found the french to
be rude, conceited, and in many respects totally unschooled in what
my family would term "simple hospitality".  Of course, the caveat must
be stated that I was in Paris.

Many Europeans have the concept that ALL Americans are rich, and have 
tons of money to throw around.  This surely ain't so....


What it all boils down to is that both sides look at things expressly
from their OWN viewpoint, instead of trying to look from the other's
eyes.  If we could get past that one little problem, the world might
be a better place....

And finally, as with any group, we must try to avoid stating that ALL
of that group are like one  you've had a bad experience in.


If we could learn those few simple things, the world might be a better
place....

'Saw

    Interesting column by Dave Kindred in the National today regarding the
    whole Lokar incident.  Some of the points he made are as follows:
    
    Seton Hall tried to do it right by giving its players the choice, but
    Seton Hall exposed Lokar when he was the only one to not wear the flag.
    
    "Not many things worse in America than being different."
    
    "Seton Hall's decision-makers must have thought this is America, land
    of the free.  They must have thought this is America, where dissent is
    tolerated and even welcomed.  They must have thought Marco Lokar could
    play a kid's game without having to pass a loyalty test given by
    jingoistic yahoos."
    
    "...it is better that a hundred college basketball teams wear no flag
    at all if wearing that flag means one player is pilloried for his
    beliefs."
    
    "The flag represents an idea worth dying for, the idea of freedom.  But
    we can't preach that sermon if we don't live it.  We should make an
    Italian's life in America miserable because he won't wear our flag for
    a kid's game.  We should be celebrating the freedom that makes it
    possible for Marco Lokar to live by the dictates of his conscience
    rather than the dictates of a government."
    
    "Why have universities forced their athletes to become political
    activists?  Make no mistake, that's what the flag-wearing is, an
    enforced political action.  The athletes are billboards for
    advertisements in support of political decisions made by the
    university."
    
    "It wouldn't work the other way.  Universities would not tolerate a
    political agenda set by the athletes.  No basketball team is likely to
    be seen wearing Nelson Mandela's portrait on its jerseys.  Nor should
    it, for that matter, because there's a place for politics and a place
    for kids' games and those places are far, far apart."
    
    "Yet the universities force the generally powerless athletes to become
    their political tools.  It's distasteful at best, at worst,
    exploitative."
    
    John

    re .51
    
    Good points, Saw.
    
    There's no question that you can't lump ALL of anything together and
    make rash generalizations. Naturally, there are good and bad people of
    all possible backgrounds. The point about perceptions Europeans have 
    towards Americans in general is a concern of mine, much as any stereotype 
    would be to a member of the group being labeled.
    
    I lived in Belgium for 2 1/2 years, and I never quite knew how to take
    it when someone said that I wasn't "a typical American". Some of the
    qualities I think are identified with Americans are ignorance of other
    cultures, even while living in the midst of them. The company I worked
    for, a worldwide American financial newspaper, was stocked with
    Americans on the editorial side. A few of my co-workers, to their
    credit, were interested in learning French, and interested in Belgian
    culture. Most were not, however. My first encounter with my boss was when 
    he went on along tirade that you can't even get a decent hamburger in 
    Brussels, that even McDonalds doesn't do it right, etc. One guy didn't 
    even realize that you had to get on a boat (if you didn't fly) to get to 
    England from Europe! Ever look at a map, pal? 
    
    Needless to say, I tried to develop as much of a life as I could
    outside work, getting to know Belgians and trying to understand a little
    more about my "adopted" home. The last thing on earth I wanted to do
    was to travel halfway around the world to hang out with Americans. When
    I joined a local Sunday morning soccer club, and was told that all
    on-field and locker room discussion was to be done in Flemish, the Dutch 
    dialect spoken in northern Belgium. A lot of folks spoke English, but it 
    is a very important issue in Belgium, not unlike Quebec. It was not as big 
    of a deal as one might think, as I learned a little soccer vocabulary in
    "Vlaams". (It's amazing how close to English it is) Even if had failed
    midserably at learning, if I kept asking "how do you say XXXX in
    Flemish," they would have appreciated the efort. It's only when people 
    come across as not interested in your culture, language, etc. and demand
    that you speak THEIR language that people get resenful. (BTW, Yanks are
    NOT alone in that respect) That experience gave me an unforgettable insight 
    to the kind of hopes, fears, concerns and issues that are important to 
    many people in Belgium.  If I was a little more closed-minded, or even a 
    little reluctant of the unknown, I would have missed out on the experience 
    of a lifetime.
    
    Tom
       

Oddly enough, if you put the shoe on the other foot, not only would any
American playing basketball in Italy not wear an Italian flag if the Italians
were going through some nationalistic period, he'd quickly tell you that he's
American and couldn't give a damn about it!

It wouldn't matter anyway because people are used to having foreigners all 
over the place in Europe, and I don't think that people would expect them to
conform in a situation like that.  

It's just another chapter of "You're in America now, act like an American."
 
Unfortunately, the people behind the threats are probably so ignorant that 
they confuse a visitor with an immigrant.

Anyway, the whole flag thing is rubbish:  I couldn't care less what some guy
who happens to know how to throw a ball really well thinks about the war.
The sportsmen should stick to what their supposed to do and be humble about
their views on other unrelated things.  I bet the understanding of what's
really behind that flag and current events is much higher in this notes file
than in the average locker room.

rick

Tom --

Sounds like you had an interesting experience.

I was very interested in the cultural difference.  I guess, being a
friendly type "country" person, I wasn't prepared for the coldness
of the folks around Paris.

We did have one guy that we worked with who we went out with a lot.
It was pretty interesting, seeing things from his point of view.
I knew enough french to get by, but even making the effort I got the
impression that people were pissed off that I was there.

We hung around with a Brit technical writer most of the time.  He was
hysterical, and I can still hear him say "Bloody b*st*rds!" softly
under his breath when something wouldn't go right.


I had fun in Germany.  To me the difference was night and day.  I
speak very little German, but I had no problems getting around in 
the M�nchen area.  When I did run into someone that spoke no English,
I used my little German, a lot of sign language, and a lot of smiles.
We usually ended up having a good laugh.  (btw, a laugh is universal
in any language, folks!)


Dutch is probably the closest language to English. I'd pick up a
Dutch station on the satellite, and I could listen to it.  German
and English have similar roots, so I could ALMOST understand a lot
of it.  The fact that my grandmother spoke German probably helped....


Sports....hmmm...  Guess this note didn't have too much Sports content.

Sorry, 8^)
'saw

> "...it is better that a hundred college basketball teams wear no flag
> at all if wearing that flag means one player is pilloried for his
> beliefs."

There's no question the treatment Lokar received was wrong (criminal,
in regards to his wife perhaps).  Things like this shouldn't happen
but, hey, things like murder and assault and theft shouldn't happen either.
To prevent the flag from being worn by the rest of the collegians (something,
I suspect, the vast majority of them have no problem doing whatsoever)
is a terrorist mentality.  Let the actions of_a crazy or two change the
behavior of the masses.  

I also disagree with the thought that wearing the flag is a political
statement.  I perceive it as more an emotional one.  (i.e. 'Support
Our Troops', as opposed to 'Support Our Republican President')

JMHO,


- ACC Chris

RE: .46

My first reaction to this was "watch a load of B.S." but after reading about 
this guy from Seton Hall (I haven't read much about it other than what is in 
here), I guess I can't say that.  The whole reaction to this guys perfectly 
acceptable behavior disgusts and saddens me.

RE:  Americans not liked abroad

My own personal experience of living in Spain and traveling through most of 
continental Europe lead to reject the notion that Americans are disliked by 
Europeans.  In fact, when I would meet strangers I was most often treated 
better by them than I am here in the good ole U.S. of A.  I won't bore you with 
details but suffice it to say I could site lots of examples of this.  The only 
time I can remember poor treatment because I was American was in Austria when I 
was verbally attacked for then-President Reagan's "reign of terror".  
Eventually they guy calmed down, I bought him a beer, and we all went home 
happy.

Scott

� To prevent the flag from being worn by the rest of the collegians (something,
� I suspect, the vast majority of them have no problem doing whatsoever)
� is a terrorist mentality.  
    
    And to *force* them to wear it in the name of political unanimity and
    conformity is a fascist mentality.
    
    Pick your poison, I guess.  I'd prefer that nobody tell anybody else
    what to do.  I suspect, in that case, we'd have a lot more genuine
    patriotism as opposed to our current climate of manufactured national
    glee.

� Let the actions of_a crazy or two change the behavior of the masses.  
    
    The mob ruled in this case. Lokar was run out of town by the same band
    of ugly village torch bearers that stormed Dr. Frankenstein's castle
    laboratory.
    
� I also disagree with the thought that wearing the flag is a political
� statement.  I perceive it as more an emotional one.  (i.e. 'Support
� Our Troops', as opposed to 'Support Our Republican President')

    So what ???   Just because it may be an emotional issue doesn't excuse
    the mob's behavior.   Abortion is an emotional issue but that doesn't
    legalize clinic bombings.
    
    Bob Hunt

�Oddly enough, if you put the shoe on the other foot, not only would any
�American playing basketball in Italy not wear an Italian flag if the Italians
�were going through some nationalistic period, he'd quickly tell you that he's
�American and couldn't give a damn about it!
    
    I hate broad generalizations/stereotyping.
    
�Anyway, the whole flag thing is rubbish:  I couldn't care less what some guy
�who happens to know how to throw a ball really well thinks about the war.
�The sportsmen should stick to what their supposed to do and be humble about
�their views on other unrelated things.  
    
    In that case we should writelock this whole file because who really
    cares what some technoweenies think about the situation outside of
    their little cubicle.

You know, I actually find this whole thing very humorous, and it's
just a matter of semantics.

When I played ball in the Fire Department league, I was issued a 
uniform.  They said "What number do ya want?"  I said "13".  They
said, "Sorry, already taken...how bout 3"....  Okay, I said.

There was an American Flag on the sleeve.

 
When I joined the Wanderers, I purchased a shirt, and was asked what
number.  I got #5.  No big deal.  

There was no American Flag.


The bottom line, I guess, is that if you play on the team, and the
uniform you're issued has a flag on it, it's part of the uniform.

What the fans did or didn't do to Lokar, and what was made of it
before and after, is simply a matter of semantics.

JMHO,
'Saw

  >>    I hate broad generalizations/stereotyping.
  
So do I.  Those thoughts are based on 13 years of experience in Europe, not 
mindless guesses.  Nobody makes their identity known as quickly as an American,
and Americans are among those  who keep their roots the strongest and the 
longest when abroad.  (Note that I personally am not making a comment or
criticising anything in that behaviour:  To each his own.)
    
>>    In that case we should writelock this whole file because who really
>>    cares what some technoweenies think about the situation outside of
>>    their little cubicle.

There is a difference because when people like us speak our ideas are taken
for what they are.  When Montana or Bruce Springsteen speak, for example, it 
sometimes gets taken as gospel because Montana plays football well or 
Springsteen sells records.  Some of the stars even abuse their publicity by
sticking in personal opinions when being interviewed, even though they're 
being interviewed only because of their sport or art.

And by the way, mellow out.  As a moderator, you're supposed to be setting the
example in here, and I don't think notes indicating your "hate" for what other
people write is in the spirit intended and usually enjoyed.

rick

    Semantics is about meaning, about different ways of looking at
    something.  I can see your point about the different ways of looking at
    an American flag on a uniform, but not at the reaction of that crowd.
    To me, thousands of fans booing a player every time he touches the
    ball, followed up by a couple making personal threats, probably means
    they were angry at him for his decision.  I see nothing semantical
    about it.  If you're claiming that that reaction was not personal and
    was just someone's way of supporting the troops or his country or
    whatever, I suppose we could justify just about anything on semantical
    grounds, then.
    
    On the ugly American theme, and not generalized but very specific, I
    read buried in the paper yesterday that at a televised speech in
    Chicago the head of the Marines, Gen. Al Gray, told a little joke that
    purported that the convenience stores in D.C. might have to close down
    because Saddam Hussein was recalling the clerks back to Iraq.  This is 
    the head honcho of that branch of the military, referring to 
    *Americans* (or at the very least American residents), even after the 
    President has made an appeal to the American public to work against
    domestic prejudice and violence.  Even if it was in fun, that's about
    as ugly as it gets, folks...
    
    glenn
     

 Glenn's right, 'Saw, semantics plays a negligible, if any, role in this
 Lokar affair.
 
 We can't explain away the mob's behavior by saying it wasn't intended
 personally or that its intentions were more heavily weighted towards the
 national support angle.   Fact is Lokar was harassed and threatened
 personally.  This renders the intentions meaningless.
 
 The mob could just as easily have ignored Lokar in stone-faced silence to
 show their disapproval.  It still would have been a personal affront to
 Lokar but much less threatening.
 
 If it's all just semantics, then the 500 pounds bombs we're raining on
 Baghdad are just as semantical.   And we all know there's nothing
 semantical about high explosive warheads.   Your buddy in the front line
 would be the first to tell you that.
 
 I can see your point, however.  (I think.)   Your firehouse pals wanted to
 wear a flag but the rugby team did not.  Fine either way since you had no
 real objections either way.  But Lokar did not want to wear another
 country's flag and that's where the problem started.  Big difference.
 
 Bob Hunt

>    Semantics is about meaning, about different ways of looking at
>    something.  I can see your point about the different ways of looking at
>    an American flag on a uniform, but not at the reaction of that crowd.
>    To me, thousands of fans booing a player every time he touches the
>    ball, followed up by a couple making personal threats, probably means
>    they were angry at him for his decision.  I see nothing semantical
>    about it.  If you're claiming that that reaction was not personal and
>    was just someone's way of supporting the troops or his country or
>    whatever, I suppose we could justify just about anything on semantical
>    grounds, then.
    
Nope.  No excuse for what the crowd did.  I was just attempting to show
how people on BOTH sides of an issue can make mountains out of molehills
in the attempt to prove to all the world that their opinion is the one
right and true way to look at something.

Crowds by nature follow what is known as mob psychology.  It only
takes a few people to start something like that, and the rest follow,
regardless (it would seem) of whether they feel it is right or not.


Btw, I wish JoJ would pop back in here and give some insight into this.
He gave me some in mail yesterday, which tended to put all of this
back into perspective, but I wouldn't post the mail message w/o his
ok.  I'd much rather have him enter it himself.

And I don't "claim" much of anything in here.  Personally, I see this
whole debate very similar to those that would take place in what
we called Retirees Row in the Social Room at Company 3.  A bunch
of old guys debating endlessly while they smoked cigars, trying to
prove just how right they were.  Making EVERY debate a life and death
thing.  It gets kind of silly after a while.....

But that's just MHO.....

'Saw

> I can see your point, however.  (I think.)   Your firehouse pals wanted to
> wear a flag but the rugby team did not.  Fine either way since you had no
> real objections either way.  But Lokar did not want to wear another
> country's flag and that's where the problem started.  Big difference.

No, not really.  The flag was part of the fd uniform, but not the 
Wanderers.  If you wear play on the team you wear the uniform.

I guess what I'm saying is that we're all having the hissy-fits over
this, and saying tut-tut what a terrible thing to have happen, and, 
when you come right down to it, like Rick said at the end of Casablanca,
it doesn't amount to a hill of beans. 

How many of you who are so vigorously debating this, like Melville's 
Lightning Rod Salesman, will even give it pause five years from now?

Guess that's my point....

'Saw

 First off Saw this is a life and death thing here that we arguing about.
 Locar's family life was threaten because of his stance about War which is
 death. 

 Second with the heads of this country so trigger happy they will not back
 off for even a day you can't quarantee me that I'll be here in five years
 to even argue about it or forget about Locar.

 I heard that Italy claims the Soviet peace proposal is in line with the
 UN concessions but George says no and continues to bomb......

 mike

    
    	Not quite accurate there Mike.  Italy said that the Soviet
    	proposal satisfies resolution 660 (I think) which calls for
    	Iraq to pull out of Kuwait.  There are at least a dozen other
    	resolutions the UN passed which the Soviet proposal does not
    	satisfy or address.
    
    	Claybroon

� First off Saw this is a life and death thing here that we arguing about.
� Locar's family life was threaten because of his stance about War which is
� death. 

You might wanna check that with JoJ, re the threats....

And I guess I'm saying even if it is life and death is this little argument
we're having gonna do anything about it?  Don't think so.

As for war, no matter how loudly we all shout for peace, and how much
we all hate war (I included), until this entire world can ensure that
no madman with a club will come an try to beat us all over the head
with it, there are gonna be wars.

Perhaps, in our role as "masters" of this environment, war has even
become the "natural selection" process we must ultimately follow.
God I hope not, but it sure does look that way.....

� Second with the heads of this country so trigger happy they will not back
� off for even a day you can't quarantee me that I'll be here in five years
� to even argue about it or forget about Locar.

Then it ain't gonna make a whole helluva lotta difference anyway [;^)]


I must just be in a cynical mood today, guys and gals...

Cynical_'Saw

    WAD AL FUZZ BOAT FLOG WEAVING IN PUBIC/??  LOKEY A TIRED GUM FOKS JAST
    KNOT NO WAD IT RALLY BOAT!!!!!!!!!!  DESPLIY FOAG CUZ MERICAM, NOT CUZ
    HOOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   FLAGGELATION IN PUBIC BARNED, NO???  THIS FILE
    KNOW BOAT FLOGS OAR GEARED RUMS OR SATAY HALL!!!!!!!  IT BOAT SPROTS -
    WEEEE SHUD FERGIT LOKLEY N FRAGS N PRESDENTURES N SUTRYR (SPEELLING??)
    -
    THIS KNOTE IS BOAT BROOONS HOOKEY HOLPS BEESABALL FOOSEBALL AND
    CHECKING PRAPRIKA~!!!!!!!!
    
    LES GO BECK TWO SPLORTRS!!!!
    
    

    re .55
    
    Saw, I can relate to your experiences in Paris. As far as the
    "coldness" goes, Paris is the New York of the French-speaking world. In
    looking at the French cities, Paris would be the equivalent of
    Washn (as the center of government and political/diplomatic life) and
    New York (the center of trends in art/fashion/culture). This combinerd
    with a certain attitude that is inherently French give Parisians a
    natural self-centeredness that is hard to beat. In the same respect
    that a New Yorker equates major nearby cities like Boston,
    Philadelphia & Baltimore with Iowa cow pastures, Parisians only
    grudgingly acknowledge that life exists outside the <<Ile de la cite>>.
    (Many :-)
    BTW, I think you'll find the French in the countryside much more
    friendly and easygoing than in Paris.
    
    Of course, this is all a generalization, and we all know how bad THAT
    is...  :-)
    
    Tom    

    
    'Saw, as I said before, if anyone is taking any of this as anything
    more than debate between friends or at the very least aquaintances, 
    then I apologize.  You're absolutely correct that none of this is 
    going to change anything or more than likely that any of us will 
    individually ever have much impact on anything of major importance.  
    Does it make a difference?  Not to me.  You're going to get a sh*&
    flying in here no matter what the topic is, no matter how trivial,
    regardless.  You won't place much value on some of it, and likewise I
    with something else. 
    
    The cigar-smoking crew was a great analogy.  If anything, that's what
    this conference is.  And as they say with kids, if we don't blow smoke
    off in here, we're probably just going to take it out on the streets...
    
    glenn
     
                                     

That's a classic JD!

	The `(SPEELING?) had me strangling! 5000 spelling mistakes, but
there's ONE he's unsure of!!!

Mike JN

�  >>    I hate broad generalizations/stereotyping.
�  
�So do I.  Those thoughts are based on 13 years of experience in Europe, not 
�mindless guesses.  Nobody makes their identity known as quickly as an American,
�and Americans are among those  who keep their roots the strongest and the 
�longest when abroad.  (Note that I personally am not making a comment or
�criticising anything in that behaviour:  To each his own.)
    
    This does not change the fact that this is stereotyping and
    generalization.  Isn't that what a sterotype is -- a widely held belief
    of a group of people based on minimal facts?  Just because a bunch of
    people believe it, doesn't make it true.
    
�There is a difference because when people like us speak our ideas are taken
�for what they are.  When Montana or Bruce Springsteen speak, for example, it 
�sometimes gets taken as gospel because Montana plays football well or 
�Springsteen sells records.  Some of the stars even abuse their publicity by
�sticking in personal opinions when being interviewed, even though they're 
�being interviewed only because of their sport or art.
    
    I think this is a topic worthy of discussion.  The entertainment
    industry puts alot of people in the public eye.  Some entertainers use
    this as a means to express political views.  Some people claim the
    publicity generated by a public figure goes a long way towards solving
    the problem.  Others express your viewpoint.
    
�And by the way, mellow out.  As a moderator, you're supposed to be setting the
�example in here, and I don't think notes indicating your "hate" for what other
�people write is in the spirit intended and usually enjoyed.
    
    I'm mellow.  I've stayed in the appropriate topic (although the topic
    is straying again), and I haven't attacked anyone personally.  By the
    way, where is it written that a moderator does not have the right to
    express an opinion.

 Ok Thanks Clayward. That's the radio for you only half the story...

 Saw, JoJ's a Jets, surly you jest when you suggest that I take anything
 he says seriously...

 ;^)

 mike

re Mikey and JoJ....

	HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, he's a Jest...  Too funny there Mike.  
	But you know whatever he tells ya it'll be WORLD CLASS ;^)


re Clayward:

	Is that anything like Rollward?


re Paris:

	Yep, I agree.  And when I did get out into the countryside, 
	up in Normandy to see the D-Day beaches, the difference was
	night and day.

	Of course being a country-boy at heart, seeing some cows
	did have a certain calming effect.

	Funny though, I didn't see any of those buxom french farm
	lasses that are obligatory in those D-Day movies 8^)


re Glenn:

	Eh, pass me another stogey, will ya?   ;^)


'Saw

    re. taking it easy on the beaver
    
    	No problem there......the wifey is about 7 months pregnant <mumble,
    	grumble> :^(
    
    Claybroon/bone/wad/more/ward/fasecious(sp?)

    re .65
    
    Wrong 'Saw. This 'flag-thang" is more than trivial.
    
    The attitudes shown towards Lokar were the same types that got Japanese
    wrongly interred during WWII. It was that type of attitude that allowed
    race riots to break out after WWI. And I see it happening again.
    
    Do people learn ANYTHING ?

    It seems to me that the Lokar incident was about a small group of
    people causing an uproar that forced him out of the country followed by
    an outcry of a huge group of people against the people who drove Lokar
    out.
    
    To equate this with interrment of Japanese Americans during WWII is
    stretching things abit to say the least.

    Since I haven't been politically active since probably before anyone
    in this note was old enough to vote (except for you Lee Timmons, of
    course!), I have read carefully but studiously avoided responding to
    this note.  But there are a few things I just gotta say.
    
    First of all, I never understood why if you wore a yellow ribbon, you
    supported the troops, and it was supposed to make a difference.  I
    mean, really, none of the troops can see if we are wearing ribbons or 
    not.  The whole ribbon bit IMO is stupid and jingoistic.
    
    Secondly, sports and politics should never mix.  Sports should exist
    in its own vacuum.  Sports should serve as an oasis away from the
    realities of everyday life, of which this war has unfortunately become.
    That's why I'm not a fan of the national anthem before sporting events,
    much less some religious figure giving an invocation before a game.
    
    Third, SPORTS notes serves the unique and wonderful purpose of bringing
    together many people of many backgrounds and political beliefs to share
    their enjoyment of sports.  Until yesterday, I didn't know that Mike JN
    and I share next to nothing in common outside of sports.  But that 
    doesn't mean I don't appreciate his opinions in here and enjoy his
    great sense of humor.  His line about his wife "having all the taste
    of a drunken comanchero" had me rolling big-time, even though I know
    he and I will never agree about Bush, the war, or most other things
    outside of the sporting world. We will always agree, however, that 
    ACC_Chris is a geek and worships a false god.
    
    Fourth, I find it sad when middle-aged men like Bill Walton forget 
    their past and sink into the luxury of the typically wealthy American.
    His comments on Lokar are particularly inapproprite, since he didn't
    address the issue of Lokar's wife, perhaps because things like wife
    and family don't mean as much to Walton since he dumped his wife and
    four kids for some nubile southern California lovely.  Walton was once
    a man of convictions; now he's just someone with opinions, who finds
    it easy to sit back in an easy chair and second-guess.  Sad.
    
    Lastly, it is obvious to me that this country would be better off if
    the people in charge engaged in the same types of conversations and
    sharing of opinions that we have in this note.  We certainly are a
    cross-section of Americans, and I'd venture to guess that we'd do a
    better job of running the country than the current administration!
    
    NAZZ

    
    > It seems to me that the Lokar incident was about a small group of
    > people causing an uproar that forced him out of the country followed by
    > an outcry of a huge group of people against the people who drove Lokar
    > out.
    
    Mac, when was the last time you saw a really large group of people ever
    commit a single transgression (like a lynching, or an interment, or
    even in the drastic extreme a holocaust)?  It almost never happens, but
    that doesn't mean the action doesn't represent or go against the 
    convictions of a large body or even a majority of people.  Doesn't 
    mean it does, either, but I guess that's what this whole debate's been 
    about.  I happen to think this particular sentiment isn't that 
    uncommon, and that's what's dangerous, not the smaller matter of what 
    specifically happened to Lokar...
    
    glenn
                    

    Glenn, I'm just concerned over the number of people who want to dump on
    America (I also think it's interesting that Americans are doing the
    majority of the dumpint) as a whole for this incident.  We won't really
    know if the sentiments expressed at Seton Hall are widespread until
    someone else dares to buck the system and not wear a flag/yellow
    ribbon/whatever.
    
    We didn't condemn all college sports fans when the "J.R. can you read
    this?" signs went up.  Why should we condemn all Americans over this?
    
    Nazz, I think it's a bit idealistic to isolate politics from sports. 
    The only way to do so would be to disband national teams and replace
    the athletes with robots or computer simulations.
    
    As for the comments on Walton, I suppose one could also look at it as
    Lokar was only looking out for his personal interests, while Walton was
    looking at the broader picture (just playing Devil's advocate).

    Good note, Nazz.
    
    That's one of the reasons why I follow this conference in particular.
    there is a wide range of views and interesting issues brought up for
    discussion. Personally I don't know or care who is closer to being the
    Great Satan, Bob Knight, Dean Smif or John Thompson, but I enjoy the
    endless discussions and side tracking going on. (My wife thought I was
    pulling her leg when I told her I got Hawk's recipie for Hungarian
    sausages in the Sports notes file). Whether we are a representitive
    cross-section of the American public, I don't know. People here all 
    seem to be good natured, intelligent, reasonable people. Part of it may
    be that this is a company-sponsored network, so there is a little bit
    of self contol. (what ever happened to that this-notes-file-is-just-like 
    a-bar-but-no-beer argument) In the general public there are a lot more uh,
    less enlightened people than we find here, even when things get 
    heated in here.
    
    Tom
    

Reasonable note from the Nazzarino, The Nazzster, The Nazzman, The Big
Nazz, The Nazzmeister, The....AWK!

Sorry.

Maybe you can't separate politics from sports... but I decided to give
it a try.

I had my war... and it was absolutely no fun. The reasons I support this
one...  are varied. 

I decided everyone has probably reached their decisions based on a lot
of things from their life: personal history, environment of their
upbringing, religion, good or traumatic experiences, opinions of people
they respect; and on and on. 

I CHOOSE to believe that the people I have such fun with in here are not
idiots or assholes. Their reasons are their own, and have validity
within that framework. I've decided it's probably best (at least for me)
to just agree to disagree.

I've decided to concentrate on the important things in life: Sports,
Beer, Babes, `Shrooms (tm) (okay... you can add family, friends and the
usual others if you want to get mushy)......

....... and leave the politics to those who are paid under the table to
handle that stuff.

Mike JN

People dump on America because we're easy to dump on.

We are a society that clearly fosters and covets the right to express
an opinion.  There are people, both in this file and out, that have
opinions that I find utterly abhorrent.  Yet I, if the call came,
and like my father before me, would put every thing on the line
to defend that way of life.  

Humans have a need to find scapegoats.  The person on the bottom
rung of the latter needs to find someone lower than they.  There
are two kinds of scapegoats -- those that you perceive as lower
than yourself, and those that are really, really big, so big that
you hate them for being that big.

It was explained to me that one of the big problems in Boston originated
from the fact that most of Boston was at one time predominantly Irish.
Everyone thought the Irish were the lowest of low, so the Irish needed
a scapegoat, so it as the Blacks.  (Don't ping on me on this one folks,
it's been over 15 years since I sat in that class, so I can't write
a thesis on the point).

The Arab world (parts of it, most of it, take your pick) see America
as the Great Satan.  We're big.  We're expansive.  We have a lot
of reasons for people to hate us, and we can be cocky s.o.bs on top
it all of that....


People should at least be thankful for the fact that if you wanna complain
about the way Lokar got treated, or you wanna complain about our national
policies, or you wanna complain about the administration, you can.
There are many countries in this world where if you did that, you'd be
rounded up, taken out to the side of some country road, turned around,
and have a round from an AK47 shot through the backside of your skull.


Sports shouldn't be a vehicle for politics.  Unfortunately, sometimes
it is.  Mobs of people shouldn't do some of the things that they do, 
but sometimes they do it.

Oh well,
'Saw

 First off Saw and Mac, I'm glad I'm free to voice my opinion and I'm not
 dumping on America just stating my views as is my right. As Mike JN says
 I've basically agree to disagree but find it hard at times because I feel
 the waste of life is wrong when it's done for money. If I really thought
 Bush was doing this because of high moral principles and not to protect the
 fat cats' share of the tax dollar then I might be able to keep my trap shut.

 Mac what happened to Locar and J.R. are two totally different things. No one
 booed J.R. (except maybe over his crummy play) or the biggest difference no
 one THREATEN him....

 mike

� First off Saw and Mac, I'm glad I'm free to voice my opinion and I'm not
� dumping on America just stating my views as is my right. As Mike JN says

Mike,

My comments weren't directed at you, and I don't think you've been
dumping on America.  I guess what prompted my statement was kind of
the exposure to this whole entire mess....

This file wouldn't be the same with your views, and the views of
lots of other folks in here...


Actually, what's cool about Sports (and I know this is gonna drive
Bob Hunt up the wall [many 8^)] ) is that it's like rugby.  We have
the full contact debates, yet afterwards (ie at get_togethers) we
have some hellaciously good times!

'Saw

    As far as "dumping on America" goes, I s'pose my comments could have
    been taken that way, although they weren't intended that way.
    
    If anything, living in another country made me APPRECIATE America more,
    although with a very different perspective than when I left. There were
    a lot of things I did NOT like about living in Belgium, like being in a
    45 percent tax barcket, even though my gross pay was about $250 a week.
    I did not like the Mandatory ID card scheme there. Once I was roughed up
    by the police (because they thought I looked like a suspect). As luck
    would have it, that was one of the only times I was out without my
    <<Carte d'Identite>> and I couldn't "prove" ituntil they let me speak
    after slamming me up against a wall. (BTW, these cops could have passed
    for a gang of gay bikers, since they wore black leather from head to toe,
    including the hats that Al Pacino wore in the movie "Cruising").
    Afterwards, when they realized I wasn't their man, they just told me to
    remember my ID Card, or I could be fined. No Apology. Geez, it looks a
    little too developed for Soweto... My Belgian friends told me I was
    lucky it wasn't worse.
    
    Even still, I  wouldn't trade my time overseas for anything, and
    (hypothetically as ever) I would have definitely worn a Belgian flag on
    my uniform, if theat issue ever came up.
    
    Tom
    

 Notes> SET NOTE /NORUGBY
    
 Had to nip that one in the bud.
 
 I find it extremely interesting that some Americans think that people who
 "dump" on America are somehow inherently evil or have the wrong
 intentions.   You know who I mean, the "love it or leave it" crowd.
 
 I find a lot of things wrong with the way this country is operated. 
 Socially, economically, environmentally, politically, militarily, and
 maybe a few more ...  But I'd prefer to think that I'm voicing my
 displeasures in an earnest and diligent attempt to help make the country
 an even more spectacular place than it already is. 
 
 I love America but I want it to be even better than it is now.  Some of
 the things we do and they way we do them don't seem, to me, designed to
 improve the country.  Therefore, I speak.    If I didn't care, I wouldn't
 say it.
 
 What could be so evil about that ???  I thought that's what we fought all
 the earlier wars to help protect ...
 
 Bob Hunt

> People dump on America because we're easy to dump on.
    
    I think some people dump on America, to use that term, in order to
    translate our freedom of expression into making it better.  I'm not
    talking about flag-burning or even setting oneself on fire (I'm sorry,
    I found that incident up at UMass to be nothing more than disgusting
    and repugnant), which have little productive value if the message 
    gets lost.  But if we accept the status quo, we see no room for 
    improvement-- that's when we're in trouble.  The way Japan and Europe
    and even some of the so-called underdeveloped nations are going, we 
    should be feeling really threatened right now.
    
    And while I felt this war was inevitable if undesirable, it and the
    flag-waving and the call for conformance and unanimity that we 
    mistakenly associate with strength and superiority in the world, well, 
    to me those are old ideas that may just leave us further behind.  
    Let's just get this dirty business behind us with a minimum of 
    casualities, both the real ones overseas and the emotional ones at 
    home, and start to make some real progress...
    
    glenn
    

    I should have said dumping on Americans rather than dumping on America. 
    I was just responding to the rash of Ugly American statements.

    With the recent announcement of additional reforms in South Africa, is
    there any word on the lifting of the international sports ban on that
    country?

    USA Dumping :
    
    If I "dump" on this country, it is with the intent of making people
    aware of what's going on. If I use history to make a point, it is
    because Americans have a VERY poor sense of history.
    
    And then we wonder why an Iran might shout "Down With America" ! 
    
    If you love someone, you don't tell them what they want to hear, you
    tell them what they NEED to hear.
    
    Same with a nation.
    
    And that is something that these knee-jerk 'patriots' need to learn.
    
    Doc

    re Mac - Don't know.  They were slated to go in - or at least a vote
    was up to let them in, but I don't know the outcome.  Right now, I
    don't think they can compete.  Personally, I've always protested South
    Africa's expulsion from the Olympics.  The IOC, as spineless an
    organization as you can get, caved into pressure from the other African
    nations.  I'm not an advocate of apartheid, but don't think sports
    should have been signaled out.  Especially given that governments such
    as Pol Pots Cambodia were free to compete, with nary a whisper of
    protest from anyone - superpower or 3rd World Country.  
    
    IN all actuality, I believe that the Olympics would be better without
    nationalities playing such a big part - for instance, the playing of
    the National Anthems and displaying of the flags at the medal ceremony. 
    I also feel a qualified athlete should be able to compete under the
    Olympic flag is their country has boycotted due to some inane political
    reason.
    
    JD

>   IN all actuality, I believe that the Olympics would be better without
>    nationalities playing such a big part - for instance, the playing of
>    the National Anthems and displaying of the flags at the medal ceremony. 
>    I also feel a qualified athlete should be able to compete under the
>    Olympic flag is their country has boycotted due to some inane political
>    reason.
 

Unfortunately without the patriotic tie in many of the true amateur athletes 
wouldn't have a place to train. The USOC goes off to corporations who (in the
name of being good patriots) pledge mucho $$$$ that are used to support the
athletes. Without this system the glamor sports like track and Field and
basketball and figure skating would get all the $$$$ directly from the 
corporations and the true amateur sports like fencing and Modern pentathalon
would get nothing.

I wish there were a way to seperate the patrioticism from the performances but
I truly can't see a way to do it. Not playing the anthem after each performance
would be a start. along with not marching in by country...


metz

For Bob Hunt:

	Oh yeah?  Well, I'll see you your notes command and raise you mine:

		SET MODERATOR
		SET NOTES/DISABLE_BOB'S_QUALIFIERS

	many 8^)


Regarding dumping on America:

	let me qualify one thing.  What I was referring to in my note,
	and perhaps I didn't make it clear, was OUTSIDE people, in other
	countries dumping on us.

	I've always felt very STRONGLY about people stating their views
	in this country about this country.  While I may or may not
	agree with any of you in here, I'd die for your right to say 
	what you feel will make this system better.

	I'm not a knee jerk patriot. Touching on something that Tom said,
	I never fully appreciated what we have here until I spent that
	6 months in France.  I too was stopped, in my case by the French
	"Gestapo".  That I was in a British car with a British citizen didn't
	help, as the French dislike "Roast Beef" intensely.

	At any rate, I came home loving this country very much.  I would
	strongly urge anyone in here who feels heartily about their views
	to write their Congressional Representatives, to write the President,
	and to make their voices known at the polls.  While all three may
	not be a powerful formula, they are at least the most powerful we
	have....


	Sorry to have gotten on my Soapbox.

And speaking of the Olympics:

	I'm confused.  When/where are the winter games?  When/where are the
	summer games.  Why did they split them apart?


thanks,
'saw

�		SET NOTES/DISABLE_BOB'S_QUALIFIERS
 
 'Saw,
 
 I tried this and I got ...
 
 � Unrecognized command verb - check validity and spelling
 
 Sorry, dude, you're SOL.
 
�	I'm confused.  When/where are the winter games?  When/where are the
�	summer games.  Why did they split them apart?
 
 Winter 1992 is in Albertville, France.   Summer 1992 is in Barcelona,
 Spain.  1992 will be the last year the two events are held together.  The
 IOC split the Winter Games away in order to give them the attention of
 their own year.  Cynical translation: the Winter Games tube ratings don't
 match the Summer Games.  With their own year, the ratings should go up
 some.
 
 So, two years after, in 1994, the Winter Games will be in Lillehammer,
 Norway, I believe.   Following 1994, the Winter Games go back to the
 regular four-year cycle.   The 1998 Winter Games have not been awarded
 yet.
 
 After 1992, the Summer Games will wait the customary four years until 1996
 in Atlanta, Georgia.   The 2000 Summer Games are not yet awarded.
 
 Bob Hunt

>�		SET NOTES/DISABLE_BOB'S_QUALIFIERS
> 
> 'Saw,
> 
> I tried this and I got ...
> 
> � Unrecognized command verb - check validity and spelling
> 
> Sorry, dude, you're SOL.

Guess I'll have to send you that special patch I made to notes 8^)


Thanks for the info on the Olympics.  I figured it probably had something
to do with $$$ but I wasn't sure.....

'Saw

    
    >	I'm confused.  When/where are the winter games?  When/where are the
    >	summer games.  Why did they split them apart?
    
    
    The answer is much more obvious.  They couldn't hold the hockey games
    and the diving competition on the same pond.
    
    Dickstah
    

>    The answer is much more obvious.  They couldn't hold the hockey games
>    and the diving competition on the same pond.
    

Thank God for you Dickstah!

Without your unique and informative insights, I suppose my life
would simply be a plain, humdrum, black and white existence, a
drudgery of day to day slogging until I can shuffle off this mortal
coil.....

'Saw

The Olympics is always political, even when a valid effort is made to
play it down. I was wondering about the basketball rules. If they are up
for any changes. The reason I was wondering was thinking about Jordan,
and Wilkins, and Ewing, and Malone, and (mumble) as the U.S. Basketball
team.... and I was wondering how they'd react when the Olympic refs
start calling Traveling, Palming the ball, and charging on these dudes.

Be kind of embarrassing if THEY lost, too, hey?

Mike JN

    I'd replace that (mumble) with Magic.  And can you imagine the look on
    his face after being called for a travel during the execution of one of
    his no-look, behind-the-head, left-handed, drive-the-lane passes?
    
    	--dan'l

    In International don't the players get an extra half step? Also a
    regular jumper for Michael or Magic would be a three pointer.

    Whew!!! This is quite a topic. Lot's of opinions and good input.
    
    However, to return to the American flags on athletic uniforms....
    I happen to feel the reasons for this have their roots in the Vietnam
    war. Colleges knew that their campuses were associated (rightly or
    wrongly) with anti-war/anti-troop dogma because of the demonstrations
    in the 60's and 70's. George Bush made it quite clear that this would
    not be another Vietnam. America, as a whole, was ashamed of the way the
    Vietnam vet was treated.
    
    So, here we have half a million Americans in the Gulf and they are
    getting TV feeds of the Super Bowl, NBA All-Star game, college
    basketball games, etc. 
    
    I'll tell you, if I was in a bunker under 10' of sand watching a 9" TV,
    it would make me feel pretty good to see the American flag displayed.
    
    Because I was in the military from '68-'72 I am particularly sensitive
    to support on the home front. In other words, when we got feeds from
    back in the states, there were anti-war demos, anti-war signs, etc that
    made me feel pretty damned confused. {I was particularly confused by
    the chants of "Bring the troops home" and then, when I got off the
    plane at Logan, being belittled, accused of atricities, etc}
    
    I think the nation was and is anxious not to repeat that mistake and
    is, perhaps, going a little overboard. The incident with Lokar is
    unconcionable and the individuals who acted so childishly ought to be
    hung by their fingernails or sent to serve in Saddam's army.
    
    I guess what I'm saying is the intent of colleges and pro teams is
    noble and I, for one, appreciate the attempt.
    
    Rich
    

	Yeah Rich, I guess to a lot of folks who trashed the Viet Nam vet 
feel by supporting this war they can make up for past transgressions. Of 
course they're wrong.  I was lucky, a bum knee made me 4F, but three good 
frineds served over there.  One poor bastard survived a year in Viet Nam 
then died two months after coming home in a motorcycle accident.  Most of 
the students who called the returning vet a baby killer etc. did so because 
they didn't know anyone over there.  Face it the majority of guys over 
there were either poor/working class blacks or poor/working class whites.  
I doubt that a lot of students had contact with them, making it easy to 
stereotype them as killers.  I don't doubt terrible things happend over 
there but if you were to believe some of the anti war protesters the VC 
wrote the Geneva Conventions.  The Viet Nam war and subsequent protests 
were about as close as this country will get to a class war.  And 
personally I'll always believe that had there been no draft the anti war 
movement would've been minimal.  It was about survival, not peace.


				/Don

    .22>Contradictory notes to me if I ever saw 'em
    
    No, we used *ourselves* of our own volition to promote our political
    agenda.  Not other students as you falsely implied.  Nice try, though.
    
    MrT

    Going back to Lokar and the fascist police-statist anti-democratic
    abuse he underwent, let's not forget that Seething Hell U. has a 
    reputation for class behavior.  Who cain forget that the year before
    SHU's run to the Title game a student body President was elected on
    a platform calling for the firing of PJ Carlessimo as a_incompetent.
    
    Not a year later PJ was being interviewed for the prestigious Kaintucky
    job.
    
    GO, Seething Hell!
    
    Fight!
    
    Fight!
    
    Fright!
    
    Big10 Tom

    FWIW, it was revealed last week that Whitney Houston did not sing the
    National Anthem live at the Super Bowl as was first reported by her PR
    people.  It was taped earlier and she did the Milli Vanilli thing.
    
    	--dan'l

I loved the way the network producer tried to weasel his way out of it.
He gave some excuse that "because of the split second timing we couldn't trust
a live rendition"

What's so split second about walking up to a microphone and singing as opposed
to walking up to a microphone and lip synching to a tape that somebody is cuing
up in the control truck?

they also insisted that since she actually sang the song and was merely lip
synching to her own performance they felt no need to inform the public that she
wasn't actually doing it live. Methinks the live rendition wouldn't have sounded
quite so powerful (and sell as many singles) as a studio version.....


Metz

    Whitney's publicist stated that she thought she was singing the song
    live.  The backup was made just in case.  I find that just a little
    hard to believe, but if her publicist says so it must be true. 8*)
    
    Jimbo

    I had heard that Whitney sang the song live for the Stadium crowd but
    that it was the recording that was played over the Airwaves.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    	I heard the whole game was tape delayed and it took over four
    takes before they could get the 'Jints to win the thing!
    
    				/Don

    The fans at the game heard a tape and the fans at home heard Whitney
    live and the taped version in unison. The concern was not Whitney singing,
    it was the orchestra playing the music. At an open stadium with crowd
    noise the orchestra would have sounded awful. The orchestra on the field
    was not playing at all.
    
    Besides who cares who and when it was sung, it sounded great when I
    heard it.

Chuck

    
    	Believe it or not,but most *all* of those music award shows are
    taped a day before, then live-lip sync during the broadcast. If that
    makes since...It was taped then sung over...how's that?  Like what
    Eli-whitney did at the S/B.
    
    B.A.

    
    >    Eli-whitney did at the S/B.
    
    You're confused, B.A.   
    
      Eli Whitney sang at the Cotton Bowl, and was dubbed
    because he had too much gin before the game.  Whitney Houston sings for
    Oiler games, while George Jetson's dog sings for the Houston baseball
    team.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Dickstah
    

    Although it may seem hard to believe in this day and age, but sometimes
    politics will take a back seat to International athletics.  The Irish
    rugby team represents both Northern and Southern Ireland.

    Mrt:
    
    Regarding your P_NAME:
    
    I know Plato is from Beetle Bailey, Homer is from the Simpsons, and
    BobKnight is a hoop coach - but who's Voltaire?  Is it one of them
    babes from "Masters of the Universe"?   I get cartoon figures mixed up
    sometimes...
    
    JD

    No JD, Plato is actually Pluto, you-know Mickey's great dog.  T just
    made a spelling mistake....
    
    Cap ;-)

Hi all.

I know this may not be the *best* place to ask, so if someone will E-mail me 
the answer to this question, I'll be happy to delete this note before anyone
replies to it here...

There was an article concerning an Italian college basketball player who
was harrassed because he wouldn't wear an American flag on his uniform.  After
much harrassment, he and his pregnant wife returned to Italia.  I thought I 
read the USEnet article in a DEC notes conference, but I can't seem to 
remember it, though.

Can someone forward the article to me?  Or point me to the conference (or 
USENET newsgroup) where it exists?

Much appreciated,
 .steve.

    Actually, we discussed this at some length here in this conference.
     I believe the topic title is "Politics and Sport" or something
    similar.  Can't help with the original article(s), but it was a
    reasonably big news item with coverage in most of the media outlets
    I'm familiar with.
    
    A&W

    Hawk, it's not A&W's fault.  I moved the question to the appropriate
    topic.

    Actually, I was seriously spacey yesterday, and *wouldn't* have
    noticed it.
    
    I hate head colds.........
    
    A&W

    
    A&W HAS HEAD COLD.  MAKES MISTAKE.  PHLEGM AT 11:00.
    
    

    Ha ha ha, Dickstah.  That is a *classic* line!   :*) :*)
    
    lEe

    From the Vogon News Service:
    

    A delegation from the IOC (International Olympic Committee) has met with
    Pres. de Klerk of South Africa. The leader of the delegation said he was
    "hopeful" that SA could rejoin the movement in time for the next
    Olympics -- 1992 in Barcelona.

    Well I hopethey do.  I've long been opposed to the IOC's blatantly
    politically buckling to black african nations in banning South Africa
    from the games.
    
    Why?  This is the same IOC (and black africa, FWIW) that 'allowed' Idi
    Amin's Uganda to compete (despite atrocities), Pol Pot's Cambodia
    (despite mass killing), etc....
    
    JD