Conference 7.286::sports_91

>    Feel free to drool over the Pirates drive to the national
>    champeeeenship in 1991.
    
JoSH --

I feel (slurp,drool) that I must (drool, drip,slurp) warn you that
I (slurp, drool, gag) amd the Presssssident of Drooler's Anonymous(lurp).

I want to take (drool, drool) exception (slurp, drool) to your
remarksssssss, becaussse, drooling (slurp, drool, drip) is not
sssssomething (splat) we Droolersss Anonymoussss can (slurp) control.

Thank you (slurp,splat)

Frank Way, 

President Droolers Anonymous

    Gee, Frank, I didn't realize you were a drooler...and I thought it was
    just raining at GMIII last summer.
    
    
    Sorry...please don't tell the moderators on me.
    
    JoJ

    Allright JoSH, glad you finally started this topic...and no need to
    tell this noter to get on the bandwagon, I've been in the front
    passenger seat since my Lithuanian comrade Karnishovas joined forces
    with your Seton Hall boys.  The Pirates may have had a setback the
    other night at the Dome, but when the real marbles go on the line
    (i.e., NCAA tournament) look for the Pirates to take care of the
    uninished business from a couple years ago.
    
    
    py                                         

 What a shame they had em beat until Owens decided to show why he's definately
 in the running for player of the year for all of ncaa not just be. The defense
 was excellent forcing the su guards into bad decisions and denying Owens the
 ball. Finally SU just decided to inbound the ball to Owens and let him bring
 the ball up and create and create he did. The Pirates are still the better
 team but Owens is definately the most dominate player in the conference.

 mike

    Mike,
    	I think a strong case for "most Dominant Player" could also
    be made for Malik Sealey.  The guy's on a scoring tear, plays good
    "D", and is a very respectable rebounder.
    
    Remember, SJU has only 2 losses too.....
    
    Kev
    

 Kev you could add Shorter, Avent and Murdock to the list as well but Owens
 just does more. Owens can/has played all five posistions on the court both
 offensively and defensively that's why I called hiim the most dominate.
 Sealy, Avent, Shorter can't handle the ball like Billy, Murdock can't rebound.

 mike
    

    SHU won last night....they have UCONN at the Meadowlands at 1pm on 
    Saturday. This is a big game. They need a BE victory after the two
    losses to Sorry_Excuse.
    
    JoJ

    re .9:
    
    Will Saturday's game be televised?
    
    
    py

    JoJ,
    
    	Please let's not forget nor diminish the fact that a certain
    other team also kicked some Pirate butt!!!!!  ;^)
    
    If you have a deen to wonk who, I'd be more than happy to oblige!!!
    
    Kev
    

    Well, SHU beat UConn in a very important game for the Pirates. They're
    now off to their best Big East start in team history.
    
    Pitt choked against G'Town....too bad, I hate the Hoyas.
    
    JoJ

    The Pirates have also now surpassed their victory total for all of last
    season.
    
    re .12, yeah I can't stand the Hoyas either, probably because my
    brother went to Georgetown dental school and every college hoops season
    it's yak yak yak about how the rest of the Big East may as well mail in
    the results now...funny he didn't have much to say a couple years ago
    when the Pirates got to the final four, let's hope history repeats
    itself....
    
    
    py

    >>The Pirates have also now surpassed their victory total for all of last
    >>season.
    
    You sure about that? 
    
    JoJ

    re .14, weren't the Pirates 12-18 last year?
    
    Anyway, we're back in the top 25 again...
    
    
    py

 Could be that the 5 Big East victory is what they were refering to. Pirates
 didn't have many wins in the conference last year. In fact they lost to the
 dreaded Eagles last year...

 mike

    Re: "...top 25..."
    
    Big Deal!!!!!!  Did I mention who is presently occupying 5th place
    NATIONALLY????????
    
    many many ;^)
    
    Kev
    

    I was in Colorado last year and I don't remember what SHU did....If I
    remember correctly, UConn was the dominant force in the BE last year.
    
    I did go to the final four with the Duke alums. No BE teams in the
    final four last year, so I rooted for the ACC.
    
    JoJ

    re my note of a few days ago:
    
    I checked this week's Sporting News; they list the Pirates' 1989-90
    record as 12-16 (so we have already surpassed last year's win total).
    
    
    py

    Wow, I didn't realize they had such a miserable season. Of course, I
    watched very little BE ball in Colorado. Lot's of Big 8, PAC 10, and
    WAC ball on the tube...so I just went skiing instead.
    
    JoJ
    
    

    hey Waddle, who you kidding? At the Dublin House ALL they show is big
    east hoops. 

    I know there is an Italian called Marco Lokar from Italy,
    How is playing ?? if he is playing !
    Ciao,
    
    			Coach_La.

    re: devil_dog
    
    Well, you're the guy that lives in Dublin House, not me...
    
    re: lASAGNA
    
    Lokar is on SHU's team, but as of this weekend he announced he was
    returning to Italy to turn pro. He wasn't getting any playing time
    anyway. Plus, he was the only SHU player that refused to wear an
    American Flag on his uniform and was loudly booed everytime he touched
    the ball.....he couldn't handle it, so he's leaving.
    
    JoJ
    
    

    	Regardless of how you feel about Lokar's stance on wearing a
    flag patch, threats against his pregnant wife is about as low as
    one can go.
    
    				/Don

 Unbelievable.
    
 Marco Lokar is an Italian citizen and he didn't want to wear the flag of
 another country on his basketball uniform.   So the fans boo him off the
 court, ridicule him in public, call him up with death threats, and then
 threaten his pregnant wife, too.   Lokar left yesterday to return to
 Italy.   Good move, Marco.
    
 Are the people of this country out of their cotton-picking minds ???  Have
 they lost their grip completely ???
    
 I've heard of patriotism before but this is just plain ugly nationalism.  
 Italy is part of the coalition.  Where's the "all-for-one-and-one-for-all"
 spirit of this war ???   Bush ought to immediately denounce this incident
 and call for apologies and whatever compensations are necessary.
 
 Whether people want to admit it or not, this kind of irrational xenophobic
 behavior is *EXACTLY* what the Germans did to their international visitors
 during the 1936 Berlin Olympic Games.   Adolf would be very proud of the
 American people right now.   He'd give Goebbels a nice pat on the back,
 too.
 
 Oh, and Seton Hall wished him good luck and said he could come back
 anytime.  His scholarship is still valid.   If I were Marco, I'd tell them
 to stick it where the sun don't shine.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Lokar didn't refuse to wear the flag cause he's Italian Ketch.  He
    wouldn't wear it cause he says war goes against his religion. 
    (Christianity)  I could argue his point theologically but that's
    neither here nor there ...
    
    The real issue in my mind is that this is the type of kid who should
    not be playing college ball in the USA in the first place.  He's a
    classic example of a hired European gun who cares nothing about getting
    a degree.  We saw the same thing last year with UConn with The Dove. 
    After the season he went back to Israel to earn a living playing
    basketball.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

 That's a red herring, Soup, and you know it.   
 
 Big freakin' deal if he says he's a Christian and won't wear the American
 flag.   Actually, if that's true, I personally support his stance even
 more now.  I've been waving my Notes personal name up above for the past
 few weeks to emphasize that *exact* point.
 
 Fact is he was run out of the country because he refused to wear what was
 to him an irrelevant symbol on his clothes.
 
 If an American were in another country and he was publicly hounded,
 harassed, or threatened because he wouldn't wear that other country's flag
 for whatever reason, the uproar in this country would be deafening.  We'd
 have politicians clawing at each other to get up on any old soapbox so
 they could rattle whatever sabres they feel like.
 
 But we do it and it's don't let the door hit you on the way out, Marco.
 
 Very, very sad.  Disgusting actually.  I hope the Italians demand an
 apology for this incident.
 
 And Seton Hall or Connecticut's international basketball appeal has
 *nothing* to do with this issue.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Chris,
    
    The international player has *nothing* to do with it at all.  In fact,
    it's a non-issue.  A foreigner coming over to play for a year, and then
    leaving to go back home to compete for their country is similar to a
    player, say like Barkley, leaving early to go to the pros to make
    money.  The only *real* difference is that one is American, the other
    isn't.
    
    The only other issue is that the foreign incident happened in the Big
    East.
    
    HD

    > I've been waving my Notes personal name up above for the past few
    > weeks to emphasize that *exact* point.
    
    Trouble is, it's not appropriate.  Your p-name is an extract from The
    Sermon on the Mount and has nothing to do with war.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Way to go, Chris.  Let's quickly change the issue so you don't have to
    face up to your previous argument being used against Jordan, Reid, etc.
    Oh wait, that's right.  They graduated or are graduating by doing radio
    talk shows.  
    
    	--dan'l

    I'll grant both of you that the hired gun point is not relevant to
    whether or not the public outcry was appropriate.  It could've happened
    to someone like, say, Rick Fox or Henrik Rodl, neither of whom are
    American citizens and neither of whom are hired guns.  
    
    I do however think it was worth pointing out that Marco *was* a hired 
    gun and that this kind of player should not be over here for the
    singular reason of playing basketball.
    
    I'll be honest and say I'm shocked the public has been so hard on the
    kid.  I mean, as I said, threatening his wife seems kindof extreme.  I
    could see a smattering of boos cause you don't agree with him, but this
    goes too far.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

  RE: Bob

     This whole this isn't American Public Hypocrisy at its worst. Is just
     one of those things that got out of hand. Just like snow ball fights
     a NFL games. Booing Marco seemed like the "in" thing to do so at the
     time. As far as what happened to his wife thats a crime and maybe the
     police should be called in. Marco and his family should call the cops
     not the government or the college. This was an isolated case from a 
     small group of people at SH. Lets not blame Present Bush and ask for 
     an apology.

     The whole thing is unfortunate and fans should watch there behavior
     at sporting events, nothing more, nothing less. 

Chuck

    Athletes should not be forced to make political statements that they
    don't necessarily agree with.  Wearing a flag is a political statement. 
    Why should a Scandinavian or a Czech or a Canadian playing in the NHL
    be forced to wear an American Flag?
    
    Wearing the American Flag is yet another example of athletes being used
    for propaganda purposes and it makes me sick.  What makes me even
    sicker is what happened to Marco.  Regardless of how you feel about a
    foreigner coming over to play in the US (which is irrelevant to the
    issue) no one should be forced to go through what he went through.
    
    This country was founded on freedom of choice and freedom of expression
    and unfortunately, this current "rash" of "patriotism" is about
    neither.
    
    John

    Bingo, JD.  Chris' argument is like saying that JR Reid is a perfect
    example of the type of kid who doesn't care about getting a degree, 
    but just used college basketball to get to the pros.  He doesn't have
    any idea what Lokar's motivations are.  All this from the guy who a
    couple of weeks ago made a personal point of banging a hypocritical 
    media for being on the same side of this issue, 'cepting the players 
    in question were Americans...  
    
    Personally, I'm bothered by American flags on *anyone's* uniform. 
    Where are the anti-flag desecration activists when you really need 
    them?
    
    glenn
    

    Chris,
    
    Where's the 'hired' gun proof?  Prove it.  Did he sign a contract with
    Seton Hall to that effect?  Or is it just conjecture.   Maybe Magic was
    a hired gun for Mich. State.  They knew he'd only play a few years, but
    he might bring them a champeenship.  (the last two lines are simply
    conjecture on my part - but the only difference is that Magic was
    American.)
    
    JD

 He was playing 5 minutes a game if he was lucky Chris. That certainly doesn't
 sound like a hired gun to me. More like a water pistol. While we're talking
 patriotric here Boston is in the process of passing a law that would force
 protesters to get a permit first. Also some hearings that the British and
 us were holding which have always been open to the public were closed so
 protester couldn't attend. 

 mike

    Patriotism, religious beliefs, etc., should never be forced upon
    *anyone*.  For *any* reason.  If you want to make a statement - make
    it, but don't force *others* to make the same statement - unless they
    *want* to.  That's the issue I have with ribbons, flags, etc.  For
    instance, I have a flag flying at my house, cause I want to - however,
    if someone had told me to do it - I wouldn't have.
    
    Jd

    You guys are failing to differentiate between:
    
    1. Hired Gun ('The Dove', Marco)  This guy is here for one reason:
       to play basketball.
    
    2. Student/Athlete (JR Reid, Michael, etc)  This guy is in college
       for *TWO* reasons.  One is to get a degree, the other is to learn
       basketball and maybe even earn some money at it.  (Sometimes *alot*
       of money.)
    
    There's a two-fold purpose to the later; a singular purpose to the
    former.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

>the other is to learn basketball
    
    WoW!  Too bad JR and Michael chose the wrong school then.  ;-)
    
    Sorry, Chris, you stepped into that one.
    
    	--dan'l

I can't speak for Marco, but as for the Dove, there was intense
national pressure (meaning Israeli national pressure) for him to
return.

There were many interviews with him in the papers up here, and because
he was an Israeli, they exerted tremendous pressure to get him back
there, if for nothing more than the fact that he had done well here.

Nadav didn't want to leave.  The one quote I remember most is
the quote "but if you are Israeli, you must".

I'm not a Jew, so I cannot say I fully understand the intense national
bonding the Jews have with Israel.  However, during the first scud
attacks on Tel Aviv, many of the Jewish people in some of the predominantly
Jewish towns in this area were preparing to go to Israel.


I guess the only intense pressure on Jordan and Reid was to get out
there quick to make some bucks.

If you can say that you fully know why Nadav left, and utter complete
nonsense like that, ergo, I must be fully correct in assuming the
money grubbing ways of Jordan and Reid are caused by Dean's programs....


Yeah, that's the ticket....

'Saw

    Michael didn't chose the wrong school, but JR might've.  The
    big lughead appears to be paying the price for not paying more
    attention during 'class'!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

 You can drop the "hired gun" crap, Soup.  As long as any of these
 so-called "students", regardless of nationality,  receive any kind of
 financial benefit whatsoever to play an intercollegiate sport, whether it
 be acceptable scholarships for tuition, fees, room and baord or illicit
 hot Corvettes from the local booster, they are *ALL* hired guns.
 
 The issue you're attempting to illuminate is that some of the Big East
 schools have done well in recruiting players from other countries'
 professional or semi-professional leagues to play intercollegiate
 basketball here.   Andrew Gaze, Nadev Henefeld, and now Marco Lokar.  I'm
 sure there are others.
 
 My point is so what ???   As you mentioned, Carolina has two "foreign"
 players on its squad, Fox and Rodl.   Akeem Olajuwon, Manute Bol, Uwe
 Blab, Detlef Schremp, and so on are more examples of foreign citizens who
 played collegiate ball here.  It doesn't matter if they played pro or
 semi-pro ball back home.   They were eligible by NCAA rules and so they
 played.
 
 The issue is the behavior of American citizens toward a citizen of another
 country.   You can argue all day long about Seton Hall and Connecticut and
 whether or not they violate the spirit of the NCAA rules regarding foreign
 "pro" players.  It's a separate issue and I'm sure it's a worthwhile
 debate.
 
 What is not debatable, in my opinion, is the treatment this one Italian
 citizen received in exchange for exercising the very rights and privileges
 that this country is supposedly fighting and dying for.
 
 The "bigness" or "smallness" of the issue is also irrelevant.   The only
 thing "small" about this is the size of the brains of the people who
 treated him and his family this way.  I mean, fer cryin' out loud, the
 guy's country is on *our* side.   I could maybe *understand* (but not
 condone) the irrational emotions if Marco Lokar were an Iraqi citizen but
 Italy is part of the international coalition and they've already had one
 of their captured pilots paraded in Baghdad as a POW.   If anything, we
 ought to have given the man a standing ovation for his country's support
 and involvement.
 
 What's next in Bushland ... Are we going to force the people of England to
 substitute the words to "My Country 'Tis Of Thee" in place of "God Save
 The Queen" ???   And while we're at it, let's tell Turkey to change the
 name of their country to "Eagle".
 
 How much "wronger" can we get ???   This self-appointed international
 "cop" role has gone way too far.   Nothing short of a Bush apology to the
 government of Italy is sufficient enough to close out this disgusting
 incident.
 
 Bob Hunt

    > 2. Student/Athlete (JR Reid, Michael, etc)  This guy is in college
    >    for *TWO* reasons.  One is to get a degree, the other is to learn
    >    basketball and maybe even earn some money at it.  (Sometimes *alot*
    >    of money.)
    
    Right, Chris.  So why don't all these student-athletes satisfy *both*
    criteria and get those degrees?  Obviously, priority, which you've
    already argued favors basketball.  And furthermore, the above applies 
    to what, 25% of all big-time American college athletes?  What're we 
    gonna do with the other 75%?  No, it seems to me that this little 
    discourse is about singling out foreign student-athletes, who I'd 
    wager do quite well academically compared across the board to their 
    American counterparts, whether they complete their educations here 
    or not... 
    
    And, no, returning to play in the Italian pros isn't proof on Lokar.  
    Did he have an option to transfer to play and study in another NCAA
    institution?  The guy got run off... I'll decline passing judgement on
    his personal motivation.
    
    glenn
    

    
    Bob, I think your connection of this issue to George Bush and our
    government or even Seton Hall is specious, at best.  I don't believe
    that we are all so personally mindless that Bush can just open up our
    little heads and insert whatever propaganda he wants.  This kind of
    ugly sentiment is there, and has been for years.  If it weren't, Bush
    wouldn't have been able to make so much hay over the flag issue in the
    elections in the first place.  Sure, the ugliness can be fomented, but 
    the American people have as much responsibility for apologies and the
    like as anyone else...
    
    glenn
      

    > So why don't all these student-athletes satisfy *both* criteria and get 
    > those degrees?  
    
    Cause scum like Tark are allowed to continue coaching because they post
    lots of "W's", irregadless of their graduation records, that's why.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    I think Chuck way back in 77.33 put this whole mess in its proper
    perspective.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Chris,
    
    Umm, lsst I looked, UNLV wasn't the *only* NCAA school that had
    'student-athletes' leave early.  Lets see...UNC, Indiana, St. John's,
    Arkansas, etc... all have.  This isn't a UNLV issue *either*.
    
    JD

 �   > I've been waving my Notes personal name up above for the past few
 �   > weeks to emphasize that *exact* point.
 �   
 �   Trouble is, it's not appropriate.  Your p-name is an extract from The
 �   Sermon on the Mount and has nothing to do with war.
 
 Wanted to come back to this one, too.   The personal name I've been using
 is indeed from the Sermon On The Mount and, to be honest, I forget what
 the closing " ... for they shall ..." phrase was.  The mind is fading.
 
 Anyway, I've been using the personal name partly because of a fascinating
 little uproar that occurred here in Charlotte a few weeks ago.
 
 Kevin Seirs, one of the two editorial cartoonists for "The Charlotte
 Observer", drew an extremely poignant and eloquent panel.   On the right
 side was Jesus Christ, in his best robes and sandals, holding a sign
 saying "Blessed are the peacemakers".   On the left side of the panel was
 an angry mob of Americans wearing all sorts of flags and ribbons and
 medals and stars.  They were carrying guns and grenades and they were
 holding signs that said things like "Smaq Iraq" and "Death To Hussein" and
 "Nuke 'Em Till They Glow" and so on.
 
 An empty lane separated Christ and the mob and Christ was very quietly
 looking down towards the ground while the mob was shouting and yelling and
 shaking its angry fists at him.
 
 That was it.
 
 The cartoon caused a mild uproar in Charlotte.  To be fair, the letters to
 the editor ran 50-50 for and against.  A lot of people felt Seirs should
 be fired, if you can believe that.   The editor-in-chief of the paper
 published a letter a few days later supporting Seirs' right to express his
 opinion.   He said that he would never censor a cartoonist's beliefs, no
 matter if he agreed with him or not.  He said he pays his cartoonists for
 thought-provoking and incisive cartoons and he said Seirs succeeded in
 doing just that and he was proud of him.
 
 I was struck by the power and the eloquence of the panel.  I have no
 intention, through my p-name, of putting myself in robes and sandals and
 speaking for Him.   I simply thought it was a powerful statement and one
 that I'd like folks to consider from time to time in this war.
 
 That's all.  In today's context, the personal name has *everything* to
 do with war.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S. In other Charlotte news, Jim Bakker had his 45 year sentence set
 aside two days ago by an appeals court.  He'll be resentenced by a
 different judge.  The appeals court felt the original judge went a bit too
 far.   Needless to say, there are a lot of folks in Charlotte who are
 claiming all sorts of revenged victories over this.  Unreal.

    
    .......for they shall be called the children of God.
    
    		Matt 5:9
    
    A&W

    re .33
    
    Wrong Chuck. This is not a "mere snowball fight". It's xenophobia mixed
    in with some ugly jingoism. And it is symptomatic of an attitude that
    is growing is this country a little more every day.
    
    Anti-Islamic attitudes in this country is one sign, innocent
    Arab-Americans being harrassed is another. Now this crap.
    
    Patriotism, IMO, is NOT defined by the amount of American flags won
    wears, waves, etc. Nor is it showing blank-eyed love for a little piece
    of cloth.
    
    The situation is sickening.
    
    And Chris, your "hired gun" logic is ridiculous, and believe me, that
    is the "rational" being used by the idiots who have harassed that kid.
    
    Doc

    re: JD
    
    The issue is NOT leaving early.  The issue is:
    
    1. For those that didn't leave early, did they get their degree?
      
    2. For those that did leave early, did they go back and get their
       degree?
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Oh yeah Chris .... I guess we're all hired guns for that matter. I sure
    as hell didn't attend Rice because they made me feel good about myself.
    Nor for their progressive attitudes towards minorties.
    
    I went to get a good education, so I could stick it on my resume and
    make some $$$$ in corporate America.
    
    So sue me - or deport me ....

    
    > 2. For those that did leave early, did they go back and get their
    >    degree?
    
    So I repeat, this is something a "hired-gun" foreigner would never do,
    right?  Prove it.
    
    glenn
    

The fans who threatened he or his family are idiots, cretins, and
sub-human scum.

And the `hired gun' debate is a straw horse.

But any apologies should come from the school. It has nothing to do with
international politics, or George Bush, or the governments of Italy or
the United States.

This happens to be the United States of America. Displaying the flag of
the country should not be something that's sneered at as `knee jerk
patriotism'. 

Because it is the United States of America, people are free to wear or
not wear that symbol.

However, because it is the United States of America, the fans are also
free to start booing the minute that self-righteous prig steps on the
court, and not stop until he leaves.

He can take the free ride, the free education, the opportunity to play
and improve his sport, and possibly get a shot at the NBA and make the
big bucks. But he wouldn't DREAM of donning a uniform that displayed the
flag of the country that's doing this for him. Bullshit! I'd be one of
the fans that'd boo him back to wherever he came from. Whether it was
Italy or west Texas is besides the point, and whether his country is an
ally is beside the point. 

And it has nothing to do with England changing the words of their tunes. 

It has to do with an individual who is willing to take, take, take; but
is unwilling to acknowledge the country from which he takes. 

If I were getting a free ride from another country, I wouldn't hesitate
an instant to display their colors. If I seriouly disapproved of that
country (as he evidently does)... I'd refuse their hospitality. 

To accept the hospitality of a country, then, in essence, to sneer at
the symbol of that country is really low. He deserved every boo he got.

As to the other activities that happened, reread my first sentence.

Mike JN

    Patriotism that isn't voluntary isn't patriotism.
    
    John
    
    

    
    You'd wear the flag of any country you happened to be working in, going 
    to school at, or even visiting if that's what they told you to do, Mike 
    JN?  What does that tell you about patriotism and the sanctity of the 
    flag?
    
    If it wasn't evident from my previous comments on the flag, I have an
    extreme amount of respect for what the flag symbolizes.  I have little 
    or no respect for one who would burn or mutilate it.  For the same
    reason, I have little regard for its display on basketball uniforms,
    car bumpers, or the backside of someone's jeans if its presence in
    those places is for obvious political purposes...
    
    glenn
      

    My "hired gun" theory is NOT ridiculous and is quite valid.  Dickie
    Vitale is the one who originally turned me on to what's going on, and
    it's bad, bad, bad.
    
    The NCAA's currently have no stipulations against it, which is also
    bad.  Hopefully that'll change.
    
    As to my having to 'prove' that Marco was a hired gun ...  Hey, if it
    looks like a hired gun, acts like a hired gun, and sounds like a hired
    gun, it's probably a hired gun.
    
    Nuf said.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Mike JN, the other day I stated in here that you're my kind of guy and
    I'd like to party with you.  After reading .57, I regret that I ever
    made that statement and sincerely hope you never want to take me up on
    that partyin' thang.
    
    Sorry, bud.  I don't like people like you.  No offense.  You'd hate me
    too...or maybe you'd boo my Ukrainian ass back across the sea because I
    don't wave a flag and tie yellow ribbons around everything I come in
    contact with.
    
    	--dan'l

    re: .57
    
    Amen, Bro Mike.  Amen!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

�    You'd wear the flag of any country you happened to be working in, going 
�    to school at, or even visiting if that's what they told you to do, Mike 
�    JN?  What does that tell you about patriotism and the sanctity of the 
�    flag?

I didn't say that. I said if I was willing to accept a free ride from
that country, I wouldn't be ashamed to show honor and respect for that
country by wearing their colors. It certainly wouldn't mean I thought
any less of my own country. And if I felt that I couldn't in good
conscience respect that country, then I would not except their
hospitality and the `free ride'.

And the flag represents a lot more than `politics'. I didn't say I
approved of `forced patriotism'. And I don't approve of the flag on the
back of jeans. But to take issue with people who choose to put one on
their bumper seems as wrong as a person `requiring' that you put one on
your bumper.

If an institution chooses to display the flag on their uniforms, I find
no fault.

If an individual refuses to wear that uniform. That's their business.

And if a fan chooses to boo that decision that's their business.

You can't have it both ways.

The fans have the same rights as the `protester'. To make their feelings
known. To you, maybe the fan is being rude. You're entitled to your
opinion. To the fan, the `protester' is being rude. They're entitled to
their opinion. That's the way it works.    And to repeat, any threats
are uncalled for, criminal, and I condemn them.

I am not condoning jingoism, political agendas, or war mongering; but on
the other hand, I find it sad that in some people's mouths, patriotism
has become a dirty word.

Mike JN

   � As to my having to 'prove' that Marco was a hired gun ...  Hey, if it
   � looks like a hired gun, acts like a hired gun, and sounds like a hired
   � gun, it's probably a hired gun.
    
 You don't mind if I borrow this for a minute, do you Soup ???
    
 As to my having to 'prove' that Jesse Helms is a racist homophobic lying
 SOB ...  Hey, if it looks like a racist homophobic lying SOB, acts like a
 racist homophobic lying SOB, and sounds like a racist homophobic lying
 SOB, it's probably a racist homophobic lying SOB.
    
 Nuf said.   
 
 Hey, I like this.  How can I ever thank you.  You've relieved me of such a
 tremendous burden.   I don't have to *think* anymore.  All I have to do is
 form an opinion, plug it into your "looks like, acts like, sounds like"
 model and say "Nuf said".   Fantastic.
 
 Sigh ...
 
 Bob Hunt

�    <<< Note 77.61 by SHALOT::MEDVID "to discover war is not the answer" >>>
�                            -< Invitation Revoked >-

Dan'l

Revocation noted.

For the record, I neither wave nor display flags or yellow ribbons on my
person, in my cube, at my home, or on any of my property.

What .57 said, in a nutshell, was that I condemned the threats,  but
supported the right of the kid NOT to wear the flag, the rights of the
fans to boo that decision, and that I thought the kid was a hypocrite.
Not exactly a radical position, if you think about it.

Mike JN

> And the flag represents a lot more than `politics'. I didn't say I
> approved of `forced patriotism'. And I don't approve of the flag on the
> back of jeans. But to take issue with people who choose to put one on
> their bumper seems as wrong as a person `requiring' that you put one on
> your bumper.
> 
> If an institution chooses to display the flag on their uniforms, I find
> no fault.

    I assume that, to be consistent, you're willing to allow the person who
    chooses to *burn* that flag to do so then?  Or just that there's some
    fundamental difference between a bumper and the seat of someone's
    pants?
    
    You can argue all you want about rights and opinions, so long as you're
    consistent.  I said I had little respect for what those fans did, and
    for other misuses of the flag.  I didn't ask that it be prohibited or   
    that the perpetrators be locked up; I just said that it was wrong.  By 
    the same token you've made it quite clear which "freedom" you value
    (the fans'), so your defense of a *moral* argument with "it's a free 
    country" is irrelevant.  I could care less what the freedoms of the 
    fans are.  Was what they did right?
    
    As for the "hired-gun" thing, Chris, we now have you on record that 
    the rules should be different for foreign athletes than American ones,
    no?  Whoops, another "free country" myth out the window (not to mention 
    another example of that meddlesome bureaucratic legislation you've been 
    so hot about lately...)
    
    glenn
    

    Gotta admit though /Don, ...  The Seton Hall note has never been so
    hot!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    THE DEBILS ARE TO BLAM! 
    
    Now everybody shut up and get back to sports before the mods change the
    name of this topic to Middle East and subsequently write lock it.
    
    And Mike JN, I probably do like you because people like you make me
    think...which is exactly what I stated in here the other day.  Of
    course, for that reason, I like Jesse Helms too.  Yuck!  8-)
    
    	--dan'l

 Why do we always have to feel compelled to auto-squelch these debates just
 because the fur flys ???  This one even had its origins in sports, namely
 Marco Lokar and Seton Hall.   
 
 I think Mike JN makes some decent counterpoints.  That is, by itself, the
 booing *at first* is not reprehensible and doesn't necessarily escalate
 this into a diplomatic incident.   I suppose if we have the freedom to boo
 him if he blows a free throw, we have the freedom to boo him if he doesn't
 want to wear a flag.  No one reason is more justified or idiotic than
 another.
 
 However, from what I've read, he hasn't been able to play since February
 2nd.   Obviously, the initial "freedom of expression" to boo him had
 turned into outright public harrassment.   I don't think we're given the
 right to harass someone beyond the initial expression.   This is sorta
 related to the "You can't yell 'Fire' in a theater" argument.   There is
 some dividing line between *expression* and *harassment*, isn't there ???
 
 The death threats are criminal.  You are not allowed to threaten a
 person's physical safety.  No argument there.
 
 As for the connection to Bush and the government, I'm not blaming either
 one.  But Bush is the leader and he is supposed to be the one to set the
 "tone" in this country.  Reagan understood that to be his most important
 duty.  {Either that, or that's all he knew how to do.}   Bush should step
 forward and firmly denounce the "tone" that this incident implies.  He's
 not to blame but he's got to discourage this.  At least he can't condone
 *by silence* the threats and the public harassment Lokar suffered.
 
 I suppose Mike also makes a point that Lokar was receiving benefits from
 an academic institution in this country and that he should have had a
 tougher skin.  Perhaps ... but again I think the fans went too far and now
 the "balance" between what he took and what he got is badly skewed against
 him.
 
 Bob Hunt

    >This country was founded on freedom of choice and freedom of expression
    >and unfortunately, this current "rash" of "patriotism" is about
    >neither.
    
    Ain't nuthin' current about it.  It's been going on since the time it
    helped Reagan get elected.  It's a direct appeal to the lowest common
    denominator in our society (go read the back issues of the write-locked
    Persion Gulf note, or catch a glance at some of the pseudos over in
    Soapbox) to get them "Baaaaa" in unison.
    
    Dan

Lets try and reverse this a little bit.


If you were in Italy right now and they asked all players to wear the italian
flag on their uniforms would you?
If they asked all players to wear a patch that says "I support the War" would 
you?

I would probably do the former and interpret it as saying "I support our troops
involved in the war" 

I wouldn't do the latter becuase of what it is saying. I think the people booing
him off the floor assume that he is refusing to wear the flag because he is
anti U.S.A. He has stated that his position is that he is against war,period, 
which is why he is refusing to wear the flag because he thinks that is 
symbolises the war.

Personally everybody is exhibiting their free choice here. Although the threats
to his wife are criminal acts the people have a right to boo him. They can 
Boo him as much as they want. 

I would hope that if I ever made a stand like his I'd have the courage to ignore
the boos and continue on. 

I think the whole thing could have been handled with better decorum though.
How did this whole stink get started? It never should have developed into a media
issue. 

Metz

Who's yellow ribbon symbolises the desire to bring the troops home not a support
of the war.

 >Why do we always have to feel compelled to auto-squelch these debates just
 >because the fur flys ???  
    
    Hear!  Hear!
    
 >I think Mike JN makes some decent counterpoints.  That is, by itself, the
 >booing *at first* is not reprehensible and doesn't necessarily escalate
 >this into a diplomatic incident. 
    
    Perhaps, but Mike left some huge gaps in his reasoning.  Lokar was not
    given a free ride by this country, but by a private university, namely
    Seton Hall.
    
    The flag is symbolism.  Wearing the flag on your gym shorts is
    symbolism.  Enforced symbolism is meaningless, isn't it?  I guess it's
    only meaning is as an example of tyranny!
    
    Their is a right to boo anyone you please in public life, I suppose,
    but that's not at issue here.  It's not that the ugly mob didn't have a
    right to boo a foreigner expressing his morality; it's that it borders
    on immoral to do so.
    
    Chuck's right.  Most of the people probably didn't think twice about
    what they were doing...they just went a long with the crowd.  Probably
    do it on election day, too.  A mob is an ugly thing, and it has an ugly
    effect on individuals.  Few are immune.
    
    Dan

�                      <<< Note 77.67 by NAC::G_WAUGAMAN >>>
�             -< Confront the issue: don't hide behind "rights"... >-

I'm not hiding behind anything

�    I assume that, to be consistent, you're willing to allow the person who
�    chooses to *burn* that flag to do so then?  

Exactly. It's one of the `rights' to which we're entitled, in accord
with the First Amendment, as interpreted by the Supreme Court.

� Or just that there's some fundamental difference between a bumper
� and the seat of someone's pants?

Yes there is. In my opinion. To which I'm entitled. I said I didn't
approve. Neither do I approve of burning the flag. That doesn't mean I
wouldn't `allow' it.

As you and Sir Robert of Hunt so correctly point out, what the fans did
escalated beyond booing. It was neither right, nor moral. I've said that
several times, in several different ways. I merely defended their right
to boo. It is not a matter of `which freedom I value'. I defended both
freedoms, and have been consistent in that defense. Just because I
disapprove of something doesn't mean I do not `allow' it. The only
reason I stepped into this at all, was because I felt that there was an
overreaction to the incident. I deplored the threats, but felt that this
was not an `international incident'. Was not a plot by any political
faction. I acknowledged the player's right to refrain from wearing the
U.S. flag. I also felt the player was something of a hypocrite, and
defended the fans right to boo him, no more. I perceived an attitude
here that seemed to find the display of the flag contemptible. I find
that attitude as baffling as that of people who would burn an ethnic
church. I could even go so far as agree to the possibility that an
individual might display a flag for contemptible reasons, but the
display of the flag itself is NOT contemptible.

So....
Balance, consistency, Wisdom of Solomon, eye of an eagle, strength of an
enraged water buffalo, mean as a shaved weasel, he who tries to be all
things to all people and always f*cks up:
Yours Truly
Mike JN

    Chris,
    
    As Bob Hunt said, Thanks.  Lets see:
    
    Dean Smith looks like a choker, he acts like a choker, he smells like a
    choker, so he probably is a choker.
    
    'Nuf Said.
    
    Owww, this is fun.  Thanks again, Chris.  Oh yeah, if a foreigner comes
    here, plays, leaves early, goes home to play for bucks, and gets his
    degree in his home country - is he a hired gun????
    
    JD

    
    Okay, okay, I hear you, and you've taken a consistent position, Mike.
    I still don't understand what it is that this kid did that was
    wrong.  I don't think he's being hypocritical.  He came to a private
    American university, as Dan said, to get an education (until Chris or
    Dick Vitale prove otherwise) and play some basketball.  I don't believe
    he came into the country knowing that that country would be involved in
    a war and he'd be required to wear a flag on his uniform to show his
    support.  Then, with a little prompting, he did what Mike JN said
    *he'd* do if he couldn't in good conscience accept his host's version 
    of hospitality: he got the hell out.  Where's the hypocrisy? 
    
    I don't know about you guys, but if, for example, I was working for my
    company in Saudi Arabia or Kuwait and making a living from it, and
    after the war broke out they gave me the option of wearing their flag 
    on my clothes, I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't expect them to make me
    to.  Am I a hypocrite then?
    
    I wonder what the reaction would have been if Lokar had said he'd wear
    the Italian flag in support of their troops instead...
    
    glenn
    

    
    Dear participants of this "microcosim of society",
    
    	I'm sitting here (at home) plowing through 50+, notes and much of
    what I've read really has me concerned.
    
    	If you take the time to reflect on the way the "Middle East" note
    was handled, everyone of you was EXCEPTIONALLY careful to acknowledge
    everyone's right to an opinion and you RESPECTED all those who did
    express their feelings.  It was, for me, a very humbling an eye-opening
    period because I had the impression that LDUC members would never pass
    up an opportunity to taunt or jab or ~/~.  I was (then) proven wrong.
    You had so much of my admiration that I recommended MANY of my friends
    (who don't do ::SPORTS) follow that note as a source of intellegent,
    informative and RESPECTFULLY WRITTEN information.
    
    	This situation is being handled differently.  Why?
    
    	Let's forget for a moment why the war is going on.  Let's forget
    for a moment who the hidden powers may or may not be.  Let's forget
    for a moment who's right and who's wrong and look at a very simple,
    clear issue.
    
    Regardless of what you believe, do we or do we not have a
    constitutional guaranteed right to the freedom of expression?
    
    Implied, if you decide in the affirmative, is the right to disagree
    with the opposing majority.
    
    In either case, the right to agree with or to disagree with an issue, a
    policy, or a situation exists and should be respected.
    
    The way I see it, after stripping away the *bs*, we have a very simple
    situation - an individual decided to disagree with an very popular
    means of expression of wearing a symbol supporting an issue by deciding
    NOT to wear the symbol.
    
    On one hand, one could say that refusing to agree with the majority was
    an expression of the right to freedom of expression (to disagree) and 
    implied by the refusal was, or could be an implied ,support message for
     the opposing faction.
    
    On the other hand, the act could be interpreted as a statement of "no
    opinion" regarding the particular issue, thereby P*ssin off both
    opinins.
    
    In either case, if the LAW didn't require such as expression (wearing
    the symbol), is the right to NOT wear protected?  ABSOLUTELY!!!
    
    The man gave his reasons. Period.  The school accepted his
    RIGHT-to-DISAGREE.  That should have been the end of it.
    
    Respect his right to disagree, please?
    
    All this Crap about hired guns, school-for-$$$, and all the other 
    shit is typical of the stereotypical redneck-braindead assh*les
    who couldn't understand what the right-to-disagree-and-the-respect
    associated with that right has made me ill and very disillusioned.
    
    Bottom Line ( like it or not)
    
    The man had the right to choose yea or nay on wearing the flag
    He did
    You don't like it? That's life, he had the right and you should
    respect his choice.
    
    Personally, I'm very,very sad ( but not suprised) at the threats,
    comments, and other things we, in the "Land Of The Free" have done.
    After all, we all know that as long as you agree with me, we DO have
    FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND EXPRESSION (extreme sarcasm intended).
    
    I apologize for our close-mindedness.
    
    Kev
    
    ps - Mac, would you write-lock this for a few days until people's
    blood pressure gets a bit lower or maybe move the reply's to a more
    appropriate place?
    
    Thanks, Kevin

I'm writing this as a moderator, but this is not written with a 
concensus of the other mods, because I haven't talked to them.


I just plowed through this entire note.  And several relevant points
come to mind.

First off, this is the Seton Hall note.  After plowing through myriad
responses, including several requests to get back to the Seton Hall
topic, I realized that we are WAY off base, and should get back to the
Seton Hall topic.

Each of us has an opinion.  That opinion is colored by our personal
beliefs, our religious beliefs (if any), and other factors (ie in
my case having a close friend on the front lines).

We each have a right to state our opinion.  That's guaranteed by our
Constitution.  Within this file that right is somewhat channeled according
to our Policies and Procedures here at DEC.

No one is disputing that.

However, just having the right to state your opinion doesn't mean that
you always have to.

I have noticed in here that the typical situation involves people stating
their opinions (on many, many subjects) and that the typical tactics is

	"If I shout my opinion the loudest, eventually everyone will follow it
	and everyone will believe it and it will be the rightest opinion"


You also have the right NOT to state your opinion, and sometimes we all
forget that it might be the wiser course in the long run.

I don't state my opinions in here anymore, because I often don't feel like
getting enmeshed in the habitual and relentless debates that go on.
My opinions are very personal to me and I chose NOT to state them.


I guess what I'm getting at is that I feel, as a moderator and noter,
that most of the last bunch of replies could have been handled in mail.
One of the reasons we shut down the "war" note was that the number of
resources being eaten up on CAM was prohibitive during that time.


I'm not bashing anyone, I'm not saying that people can't express their
opinions in here, but please, before you do, THINK a little, and see
if what you want to express might not be handled better in mail,
especially if it is a rathole type thing.


Thanks for listening,
Frank

    Is the abuse showered on Lokar any different than that showered on
    Donnie Moore?  If the reports on life in the Italian basketball leagues
    is true, the guy is going to have alot of trouble in the professional
    limelight.

    With all due respect, I think this particular incident and the motives
    behind it *are* related to sports, if not Seton Hall specifically.  I 
    read a column in my Boston Globe sports page yesterday that covered 
    many of the same arguments we saw in here, so even in a public forum 
    there seems to be some evidence that the issue is related.  Furthermore, 
    if you re-read the entries, most of them concern the flag, its use and 
    symbolism, and the role of foreign participants in a sports-related 
    context removed from direct personal commentary on the war, so I don't 
    think it's a rathole.
    
    I also don't understand the uproar over respect for another's rights 
    in this file.  I saw no evidence that anyone was trying to suppress
    another's opinion.  Somehow, in an attempt to sanitize basic
    differences of opinion, I guess, any debate which escalates beyond 
    normal pleasantries is assumed to be disrespectful and oppressive to
    the rights of the opposing party.  Why?
    
    Lastly, this file obviously means different things to different people.  
    Beyond the fun, I enjoy real sports/society-type debates from time to 
    time, which are inexorably labeled as "ratholes" and pegged for
    write-lock.  On the other hand, typical "junk noting", many of which
    are undeniably in poor taste and are subject to the same Digital 
    policies (whatever those may be) regarding relevance and decency, 
    seems to be encouraged and certainly not discouraged.
    
    What do you guys think?  Are you offended by differing opinions to the
    point that they should be restricted in here once and for all?  I'm 
    not, try to take whatever I can from them, and otherwise don't take it
    all that seriously...
    
    glenn
       

 Being married with children, I do not get out much and at work when I'm
 not busy I'm in here because I like the ratholes, the junks notes, the
 differences of opinions etc. The only think I have ever really found
 offense in here was a certain noter calling me dumb because of my opinion
 of Roger Clemens. I need the differences of opinion etc, because they
 are stimulating and informative....

 I HATE WRITE_LOCKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 mike

    You make a real good point in .85 Mike.  There is a big difference 
    between saying "I disagree" and "You're stupid for thinking...".
    
    Quick question, are the Pirates on the tube this weekend?
                                                                  
    
    py

 I hope the Pirates are on. They had two big wins recently. I'd like to see
 if they are really turning the corner and have cutdown on those Turnovers.
 I hope so, cause when we go the Big East Tournement we do so want to see
 them crush SU!!!!!

 mike

I wasn't saying anyone was WRONG, in here.

If someone had been wrong, the topic would either have been write-locked,
stuff set hidden or whatever.

I'm merely asking that folks look at this from my point of view.

CAM is a machine where a lot of this group (30+ people) do work.
SPORTS itself is a high-volume conference, needing a lot of netlinks
and other resources.

If SPORTS gets into rathole mode on a lot of outside issues, then those
resources are eaten up for more than just SPORTS.  I don't mind when
people want to digress a little, I don't mind when topics grow out
of one discussion into another which is valid.

However, in reading some of this, it seemed to me like it was a lot
of shouting that "my opinion is the one right and true opinion" etc.
Yes, every one was careful not to offend the others, and yes, it was
handled fairly well.  But in looking at it I felt some of it could
have been handled just as well in VAXmail.


Mabye someday when I have some spare time, I'll find an unused microvax,
and I'll managed to make it into an environment solely for the SPORTS
conference.  A few months after that, DEC will announce SPORTServer V1.0,
and the world will be forever changed for the better ;^)

Note well, folks,
'Saw

 � A few months after that, DEC will announce SPORTServer V1.0, ...
 
 With several additional options, of course.  One of them, no doubt, being
 a NO_RUGBY option that would automatically squelch any metaphorical or
 otherwise obtuse mentions of this particular "way of life".
 
 	Server> SET SPORTS_SERVER /NORUGBY
 
 Bob Hunt

The other night when I saw Duke and Wake Forest was the first time I was
aware that Wake Forest was the Demon Deacons.
This really cracked me up.
Like the Satanic Priests...
or the Nuns of Beelzebub...

Who thinks these things up, anyway?

When I start a team, it's going to be the Barking Beavers.
(and the Coach's name will be Ward.
	Reporter: Tell me Ward, are you worried about the Beavers?)

Mike JN

    Couldn't let the day go by without mentioning the Pirates' win over
    Georgetown on Saturday...yeah, I think I'll give my brother (Georgetown
    Dental School '84) a call tonight...heh heh heh... 

    Wow...I was only 70 or so replies behind....why I bothered to catch up
    is a mystery to me.
    
    In any case, since I put the initial reply to the Lokar question in
    this topic I thought I'd voice my opinion (it is my topic anyway..8^))
    
    PJ, SHU's coach, had no problem with Lokar's choice. Wearing the flag
    was OPTIONAL per the school. Lokar chose not to wear it, and was booed
    everytime he touched the ball. He stated that he would not wear the
    flag because he does not believe in war between any countries for any
    reason. Fair enough. The fans at the game decided they didn't like him
    anymore, so they booed him.
    
    If it ended there, it would have eventually simmered down. But,  some
    PEOPLE (not necessarily fans, as most of you ASSUMED) started
    harrassing his wife. 
    
    The response from the University was to employ and post security guards
    outside of his apartment. The police also got involved at the request
    of the school.
    
    When Lokar, a theology major in case anyone is interested, decided to
    quit the team, the school offered to allow him to complete the current
    semester.
    
    So, IMO, the school has nothing to apologize for. They supported Lokar,
    and his wife.
    
    He left because he was unhappy with his playing time (minimal). He was
    benched because he was supposedly a "shooter" and was shooting 28%. 
    
    JoSH
    
    PS - Awesome win over the Hoyas on Saturday�!!!!!

    The real issue to be examined here is how well the Pirates will do in
    the NCAA"s....I think they'll at least get to the sweet 16, perhaps the
    Great Eight depending on which division they get placed in. They lack
    some scoring punch which is gonna cost them in the later rounds.
    
    However, their defense should get them at least as far as I predicted.
    
    Carnac

    ok, it's tourny time....SHU plays Pitt at 12:00pm Friday. If the
    Pirates win (they split during the regular season), they move on to
    play the winner of the Syracuse - (winner of Villanova/BC) game on
    Saturday at 2:00pm
    
    
    I'm hoping for a SHU/St.Johns final on Sunday.
    
    I figure Syracuse will either choke against Villanova (or BC..ha ha) or
    get beat by the Pirates after they take care of Pitt.
    
    JoSH

    What TV coverage will there be for the Big East tournment?
    
    GO PIRATES!     
    
    
    py

    Paul,
    
    The toilet bowl between Villanova and BC isn't televised anywhere
    around here.  The semifinals and finals will be on CBS on Saturday and
    Sunday.  The quarterfinals on Friday are likely to be televised
    somewhere, but I'm not really sure where and how, since ESPN, I
    believe, has coverage of the ACC Tournament that day.
    
    John

    Ninja & Paul & everybody else:
    
    	Starting at noon on friday, Ch 38 has all the games.  I'm
    pretty sure I saw that the rest of your schedule is correct.  ESPN
    seems to be doing the entire ACC tournament and nobody else (while
    THOSE games are being played.
    
    Now, how does one get Ch 38 on the radio?  Listen to WPRI (AM)
    someplace near 620.  I thought I remembered them advertising that they
    would be doing all the games.
    
    HTH,
    
    Kev
    

    #100 for the Seton Hall note????  Who woulda thunk it????
    
    Congrats to me  ;^)
    
    The BC-'nova game is on AM radio (in the Boston area).  
    
    Start time is 7:00PM.  Tune into 1150AM on the radio dial.
    
    
    Kev
    

    The Hall takes the Big East Tourny. They beat Pitt with less than a
    second to play, they beat Nova with a little more than a second to
    play. Both winning baskets were scored by Taylor, who added 15 more
    points .vs. the Gougetown Horrors on Sunday. 
    
    Perhaps the most encouraging part of the whole tourny was when Mike
    Childs took off his Hoya sweatshirt and put on a Seton Hall Pirates
    sweatshirt. This was the ultimate bandwagon jump. Both wagons were
    moving and Mike leaped from the ill-fated Hoya bandwagon to the Pirates
    bandwagon with roughly four minutes left on the clock.
    
    He got a standing_O from the immediate audience.....(me!!!)
    
    PIRATES ROOOOOOL!!!!
    
    JoSH

    Pirates play at noon today, I think....They should win easily. Round
    two could be tougher, but they should win then too.
    
    GO PIRATES!!!!!!!!

    re .103, 
    
    Game time is 2:30 PM.  I too think the Pirates should get to the round
    of 16.  Beyond that will be tough, but don't forget what happened in
    the West two years ago...
    
    
    py

    In fact, two years ago the Hall knocked off the UNLV team that knocked
    off Arizona....
    
    I can only hope that G'Town knocks off UNLV by some miracle.
    
    JoJ

    JOJ,
    
    I sure hope hte Hall makes it to the Sweet 16 - I'm looking forward to
    them playings say, Arizona nexted week in the West Regionals.
    
    JD

    NMSU will knock off the Hall in round 2.
    
    Joe

    	Heck, I'd rather watch Monty Hall than Seton Hall

    Creighton will punish New Mexico State, then give Seton Hall a
    surprisingly tough battle.  The Hall will then romp over BYU
    (upset winners over Arizona), but get blown away by UNLV one step 
    away from the Final Four.
    
    NAZZ

    re .110, thanks Kev; good luck to the Redmen today...
    
    When is the Pirates' next game?
    
    
    py

    > When is the Pirates' next game?
    
    Saturday @4:40 p.m.

    The Hall will rock and roll over Creighton...which, by the way is a
    trendy upscale yuppie school and /Don is a big fan.
    
    JoJ

Hey JoJ --

I just read in Rolling Stone that the Scorpions AND the Village People
are big SHU fans.

Ain't you a lucky dude...  Too excellent!  (your favorite groups)

later,
'Saw

    Hey Saw,
    
    Thanks for telling me. I thought I saw the Scorps in the crowd at the
    BET rooting for the Hall, but Dan told me they were nexted years
    recruits from Georgetown.
    
    Thanks for confirming that for me...FrankWa.
    
    JoJ

JimWa --

Klaus Meine, their lead singer, told me to tell you that:

		There's no one like YOU.....

;^)

FrankWa...


PS  Big grudge match Friday -- UCONN at Duke.  Should be a good game....

    As a New Jerseyian ,I am enjoying the 1991 Pirates  more then the 1989
    team,because that group contained almost no home grown players.
    
    On this year's team Avent,Dehere,Walker, and Caver are all from NJ,with
    Wright,Dan Hurley and Leahy(a redshirt freshman) set to join next year.
    Unfortunately,I think the season ends Thursday against an Arizona team
    that seems to have too much inside strngth. The key to a Seton Hall win
    has to be Avent staying out of foul trouble and Walker and Karnishovas
    making an impact on the boards. In any case,Seton Hall has now made
    their mark as a force to be reckoned with. Go Hal!!!!!!!

�    their mark as a force to be reckoned with. Go Hal!!!!!!!
                                                   ^^^


Gee, Dave, I didn't know you were into 2001.

Or could you be referring to Hal Needham, the premier Hollywood
stunt man?

Shclpe enq-minds-uiring deen to wonk,
'saw

 Walker, Avent, Winchester and Karniovas match up ok with Tuson sky line.
 The line maybe taller but the Hall's more physical and Williams of the
 sky line has disappeared before. Taylor and Dehere are better all around
 players than Matt and Oftring. Zona is smart and experienced though so
 it should be a good one...

 mike

    That should be New JerseyITE, David!
    
    Hall's front line may not be quite what 'zona has to offer, but they're
    no pushovers.  It's a real shame that The Committee saw it fit to place
    them in the west while Duke gets the cushy #2 out of the west.
    
    But Seton Hall's backcourt will eat 'zona alive!  Watch and see. 
    There's no comparison there...
    
    It should be a very interesting game.
    
    Dan

    While my heart is with St. John's, I'll be at the Kingdome on Thursday
    rooting for the Hall over Zona.  Don't like that guy Williams on Zona,
    or the Hitler youth backcourt ;-)  Does Zona always have to have those
    Steve Kerr types???
    
    I'd like to see the Utes beat UNLV - but I'd like to see the Hall and
    UNLV on Saturday.
    
    JD

    GO WILDCATS!!!

    The Hall has their work cut out for them, but if Dehere and Taylor get
    hot from the outside, they'll have a real good shot at winning. If the
    guards get hot, and Avent stays outta foul trouble, the Hall will win.
    
    JoJ

    Agree with those who say that the Pirates' guard play will be the key.
    
    Look fomy man Karnishovas to bounce back with a big game too.
    
    
    py

    >>Agree with those who say that the Pirates' guard play will be the key.
    
    >>Look fomy man Karnishovas to bounce back with a big game too.
    
    
    Looks like ya got both. Dehere was high scorer, and Karnishovas played
    tough all night underneath. 
    
    The Hall is in the regional finals !!!!! 
    
    GO GET DEM REBELS AND STOMP 'EM !!!!!! GO PIRATES!

    yes yes yes yes yes...
    
    An aside -- the Seton Hall player (Winchester?) who missed a dunk with
    a few minutes left was almost responsible for sending my wife into
    labor.  My wife (who is due Monday) was in the room when that play
    happened; I let out a big shriek, and the baby jumped bigtime!  A few
    minutes of "You made the baby jump!", "Yeah, but he missed a *#$!ing
    dunk!" back and forth followed, but things calmed down after that.
      
    oh, and one more thing...
    
    
    
    UNLV -- WARM UP THE BUS!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    py

    Hey Paul, I also did a bit of yelling and got yelled at for *almost*
    waking the baby up...whatever that means  8^)
    
    I was sitting there talking to Dehere when he was on the foul
    line...."c'mon Terry baby, bury both of these, c'mon...yeah!
    swish...all net, way to go...etc, etc, etc"
    
    ha ha, wimmin just don't unnerstand.
    
    JoJ

    ALRIGHT PIRATES!!!!
    
    GREAT GAME BABY.  ARIZONA - WARM UP THE BUS.  UNLV IS NEXTED!  BLAM,
    BLAM , BLAM.
    
    JimWa - you would have Loved the Arizona whiney fans I was near.  They
    were crying about everything.  Unreal.  
    
    Caint wait til Saturday!!!
    
    One of the best line by a Zona fan - "Look at the Hall coach - what a
    jerk, he's YELLING at his players!  What a cad!!!"  (Yep, she used the
    word 'Cad')  I was rollward.
    
    JD

    maybe "Warm up the Volvo" would be more appropriate... :-)

    Re: last 2
    
    Yeah there's a lot of Southern Cal. yuppies that go there.
    
    Mike

    JD,
    
    They sound as bad as the UConn fans...ha ha...
    
    JoJ

    JimWa,
    
    Yeah - the other great one was there cheer - it went U of A, U of A -
    and this gal goes - you know, like USA, but without the S, and of
    instead.  Get it.  DUH!
    
    Oh yeah, and LUte's a better dresser than PJ is.   Nuff said!  ;-)
    
    JD

    JD...the cheer sounds complicated...how'd she ever figure it out? 8^)
    
    Oh well, time to close the book on SHU for this season. They reverted
    back to early season form with all those turnovers. UNLV is much
    tougher than I thought. As Louie said today...I can't even blame this
    game on the refs. I was actually amazed that they hung so close for the
    first half. I was hopeful that they could stay close, but after 7
    minutes of the second half with UNLV opening up a big lead, I knew it
    was over.
    
    Well, next year we have Luther Wright coming in.
    
    SHU in '92.....hey, it has a nice ring to it.
    
    Later,
    
    JoSH

    JoSH,
    	I thought the Pirates played one hellova first half.......
    
    PJ and the team are a credit to our conference.  
    
    Did you catch the comment about the UNLV player (can't remember his
    name) who was told by the NCAA to "take back" his scholarship?
    That was the first I had heard about it.  Certainly THAT discussion
    will warrent its own note.
    
    Kev
    

    Greg Anthony is the player in question.  Anthony earned his real estate
    license before he enrolled at UNLV (he was at a Junior College first)
    and then started a T-Shirt company while at UNLV.  There is a NCAA rule
    that says a player on scholarship cannot have a job during the school
    year, and because he was making so much more money from his businesses
    than his scholarship, he gave up the scholarship.  Then, the NCAA came
    back at him and said that because he was profiting from his status as
    an athlete (ie, the fact that he was a UNLV player was enabling him to
    profit from the t-shirt business), the NCAA said he had to go back on
    scholarship or lose his eligibility, so he sold his interest in the
    T-shirt business.  I'm surprised they didn't make him give up his real
    estate license too.
    
    From reading about Anthony, I highly doubt he was doing anything
    illegal because he'd been a real go-getter before he got to UNLV.  I
    think the NCAA is upset because it shows a loophole so wide you could
    drive a truck through it.  Wealthy boosters at any school could set a
    good prospect up in a business that would make him a lot more than a
    scholarship would.  This would not only be a means of attracting good
    players to a school and paying them big bucks while he was there, but
    it would keep scholarships free for more marginal kids, thus allowing
    teams to go back to the days of stockpiling talent.
    
    I believe Greg Anthony is being unfairly penalized for his
    entrepreneurial abilities because of his association with UNLV hoops.
    
    John

    Pirates did well to hang in there for the first half Saturday, despite
    not playing their best (not only the turnovers JoSH mentioned a couple
    notes back, but questionable shot selection too).  UNLV showed why
    they're the #1 team in the country at the start of the second half; 
    'nuff said.
    
    Still an excellent season, with a Big East Tournament title and making
    it to the West finals.  Losing just two players and gaining Wright,
    we'll definitely be back strong next year.
    
    
    py
    

    RE: Next year
    
    They should be excellent next year,but the may not accomplish as much
    in the post season. The big year could be 92-93.
    
    While losing only Ollie Taylor and Anthony Avent,the Hall adds Luther
    (60 pounds overweight) Wright,7'0 Jim Dickinson,redshirt freshman John
    Leahy and Danny Hurley from St. Anthony's. Having 3 quality guards like
    Hurley,Caver and Dehere will be important in the Big East where
    defensive intensity starts when you get off the bus.
    
    Leahy,Karnishovas,Winchester,Barneas and Walker give the Hall 5 quality 
    forwards. Center could be the early season problem . Wright's weight
    control is crucial.
    
    In any case,this season definitely established the program and was
    especially noteworthy,because unlike 88-89 the major contributions came
    from in-state talent.
    
    A footnote:
    As good as the Hurleys,Terry Dehere, and Jerry Walker are the best St
    Anthony's player in recent years is 6'7 junior Rodrick Rhodes,who is
    already a two-time Parade All-American and should give serious
    consideration to the Hall.

    Time to get this topic going again (seeing as I wore my Seton Hall
    basketball sweatshirt to work today).
    
    Could someone out there who has access to Big East schedules please
    post Seton Hall's schedule here?   ADthanksVANCE.
    
    Go Pirates!!!
    
    
    py

    got the schedule I requested in .140, thank you Kevin Farley.
    
    
    py

    Glad to oblige ya Paul.
    
    
    
    	Now YOU can post-it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    		many grins.......
    
    			Kev
    

    Finally got around to typing this...remainder of Seton Hall's 1991-92
    schedule:
    
	
    Dec. 4 		North Carolina 
    Dec. 7		Iona
    Dec. 11		at Rutgers
    Dec. 14		St. Peters
    Dec. 28		Florida A&M
    Jan. 2		at Pittsburgh
    Jan. 4		at Boston College
    Jan. 7		Miami
    Jan. 11		at Georgetown
    Jan. 13		Villanova
    Jan. 18		Boston College
    Jan. 20		St. John's 
    Jan. 26		Ohio State
    Feb. 1		at Syracuse
    Feb. 4		at Providence
    Feb. 8		at Connecticut
    Feb. 11		Syracuse
    Feb. 15		Providence
    Feb. 17		Pittsburgh
    Feb. 22             at Villanova
    Feb. 26		Georgetown
    Mar. 1		Connecticut
    Mar. 4		at Miami
    Mar. 7		at St. Johns
    Mar. 12-15	        Big East Tournament @ Madison Sq. Garden
                                       

    Pirates sleepwalk through the first half of Saturday's action (just a
    38-35 lead at intermission) before finally disposing of Iona 88-72.
    
    Karnishovas' injury is unfortunate, but that doesn't excuse the ice
    cold shooting/crummy shot selection, excessive turnovers, and general
    out-of-synch play the Hall displayed last Wednesday against N.Carolina
    and in the first half Saturday.  Fortunately, there's still a bit of
    time before Big East play starts for the Pirates to get their act
    together...
    
    
    py

    What happened to Terry Dehere?  Was watching CNN Headline News late
    Saturday afternoon, and they said he injured his wrist and is probably
    out for the year...how did this happen?
                          
    
    py

    I think he's got a problem with the tendon in his thumb.

I hadn't heard that he was done for the year.

He supposedly was available to play in last Saturday's game and was on the
bench.  The news I heard is that the doctors who examined him say that he can't
do any further damage to the injury he has.  He will have pain, though.  The
injury would require surgery but I got the impression that he would play out the
season with the injury and then get surgery.

Anybody else hear anything?  Seton Hall is off for a while so I don't expect to
hear any news until their next game.

Dave

    Was losing to BC at the Meadowlands Saturday night the wakeup call this
    team needed?  Hope so...
    
    
    py

    Will anyone out there have access to updates on this afternoon's game
    (12:15 start)?
    
    
    py (with Seton Hall basketball sweatshirt on today)

    Time to get this note going again...is tonight's game vs. Delaware
    going to be televised?
    
    
    py