Conference 7.286::macintosh

    I've just heard an unsubstantiated rumor that the Mac client for the
    AltaVista Tunnel is going to be dropped due to low market expectations.
    If this proves to be true, I wonder if there are enough interested Mac
    users left in the Digital community to get such a decision revisited.
    
    At T1 speeds, a cable modem connection via Continental Cable running
    SoftWindows95 on my 100Mhz 603e-based 2300c duo will still be better
    than the 14.4 built-in modem I'm currently using. Still, it's
    frustrating to find yet another market segment bowing to the Wintel
    Borg. Oh well.
    
    	/Harry

I am very interested in tunneling software for my Mac at home, especially since
I've dropped my second phone line for a cable modem.

I also heard there may not be a Mac client.

Paul

    If Digital expects me to connect to the corporation via my ISP, then I
    *must* have a tunnel client for Mac.  I've got 2 Macs and no PCs at
    home and I intend to keep it that way.  Sigh...the number of Macs in
    people's homes is bigger than a lot of people realize and I suspect a
    good number of people wishing to tunnel will do so from their homes.
    
    I've got lower speed Macs and I have no intention of spending $300 for
    SoftWindows95 just so I can tunnel into work.  (Particularly since it
    would run very slowly on our low rent PowerMacs.)
    
    #Gary

    
    Add me to the list of people that would like to see a Mac client. Is
    there someone we can send this list to? I'm sure we could get a lot
    more names on the list.
    
    Mario

I'm another that would like it for home...I read that digital wants to rid
itself of most local dial-in capability.  If they do that they I'd need an
ISP which mean tunnel....I have two Macs at home and have no intention of
buying Wintel stuff for home.

Also, the project I'm on is starting to look at the tunnel software for 
people to get to data inside the private network.  The external sites have
PCs in some cases and Macs in others.  Mac support would help our sales
efforts.


John

I just spoke with a reliable source at AltaVista.  They are investigating
whether or not to do a Mac tunnel.

They need to make money on such a product.  Unfortunately, all us internal
people who pay almost no money for such a product don't count.  They need
evidence of real, paying customers who would buy a Mac tunnel in quantity.

The product manager is Philippe.der Arslanian.  Please do not bother him with
individual requests for a Mac tunnel, but I'm sure he'd love to hear about real
customers.

Paul

    Another alternative I may be able to make use of would require MacX
    1.5. The latest version I can find in my old Pathworks diskettes is
    1.2.
    
    Does anyone know if MacX 1.5 is available internally?

    Re: .23  - Does anyone know if MacX 1.5 is available internally?
    
    Contact Eirikur Hallgrimsson (RANGER::EH).  Eirikur is the manager
    in charge of PATHWORKS for Macintosh.
    
    					Bob Harris

    >They need to make money on such a product.  Unfortunately, all us
    >internal people who pay almost no money for such a product don't count. 
    >They need evidence of real, paying customers who would buy a Mac tunnel
    >in quantity.
    
    
    Oh for heavens sakes, just do it and charge us Deccies a little bit
    more to make up the difference.  I thought AltaVista was a separate
    company these days.  That would make us "real" customers. And even if it
    cost every one of us $200  It's still gonna be cheaper than to give
    every Mac user a loaner PC from Digital just to dial in.  :-(  (And I
    bet they'd sell a few copies to "real" customers too.)
    
    This tirade isn't directed to anyone here.  Just general frustration
    over the tired old: "Gee, we can't make any money selling Mac
    products."  Of course you can't if you won't even try!
    
    #Gary

    
    Can't we be used as an example of how many people in a company that is
    mostly PC oriented would like to use tunnel software. I'd say 10% of
    Mac owners participate here...I know lots more Mac owners in CXO that
    never read this conference...and we already have a bunch of "Me toos"
    
    Mario 

    I too am very interested in being able to use a Mac version of
    AltaVista Tunnel to call into work via my ISP.  But, I will continue
    using the direct phone connections as long as they last.  Out my way
    there is no talk of cable modem connections becoming possible.  I would
    still keep my 2nd (DEC) phone line, but there would be no message units
    accumulating for work calls (work is a message unit call with 20 mi
    circle coverage, my ISP is local).
    
    	The Tunnel sounds like a good idea, but here is a question:
    
    If I am logged into my ISP and Tunnelled into DEC, what will Netscape
    think of its network connection?  Different proxies are required for
    DEC than for my ISP.  Changing these is a bother every time (does
    anyone of quick context change tips for Netscape or Internet Explorer)?
    
    					Rich

I pay long distance charges to dial in to work.  If the tunnel were available
for Macs, I'd use that with my (local call) ISP.  As it is ... I just don't dial
in much.

	-Neil

    I'd use a tunnel all the time, no PC at home and lotsa Macs.
    
       erik

Re: .27

Rich, since you'd be dialing into your ISP you'd only use your ISP's proxies.
The tunnel software latches itself into your IP stack such that requests to
addresses inside of Digital (16.*.*.*) are routed to the tunnel software 
and then onto the line into DEC but requests for things outside of Digital are 
sent down the normal protocol stack via normal channels.  Thus you'd never use 
Digital's proxy servers.

John

    John,
    
    	Thanks for the explanation.  Now I'm really sold on the tunnel for
    Mac idea.  The only other networking issue that concerns me is RAS
    connections.  Does the tunnel obviate the RAS-only (with no Mac
    support) problem?  I'm imagining that RAS is only a dial-in issue. 
    Also, once I am connected to DEC via the Tunnel, I'm imagining that I
    would still be unable to mount NT drives (unless there is Mac support
    for this from Microsoft and DEC feels like setting it up).  Would this
    be the case with the Tunnel as it is now with a TCP/IP connection via
    PPP?
    
    							Rich

I would also like to use the tunnel from my Mac at home.

NT Server supports AppleTalk as an option. Turn that on, and you should be able
to mount file shares and use NT printers from your Mac.

-Mark

    If they eliminate dial-in and there isn't a tunnel, DIGITAL will lose a
    significant amount of work - mine, for sure, and I'm sure that of many
    other Mac users as well.  Lost along with the work will be an equal or
    greater amount of employee goodwill.
    
    Count me in for tunneling.

    Count me in for tunneling, as well.
    
    /Wayne

re:       <<< Note 934.31 by ROCK::WATSON "N1GNB, DTN 225-4898, 293-5922" >>>
        -< Tunnel sounds even better - what about mounting NT drives? >-

>     	Thanks for the explanation.  Now I'm really sold on the tunnel for
>     Mac idea.  The only other networking issue that concerns me is RAS
>     connections.  Does the tunnel obviate the RAS-only (with no Mac
>     support) problem?  I'm imagining that RAS is only a dial-in issue. 

    A previous note mentioned Thursby Systems. I believe this is
    the company that provided the DECnet stack for our PATHWORKS
    product. They now have a product called "Dave" which will
    allow Macs to access Windows Share volumes on 95 and NT.
    If everything the sales person tells me is true, it should be
    a great product.

    A side benefit of Dave is support for RAS dial-ins. i.e. If you
    have MS-Exchange running on a Mac at home, you will be able to
    access your mail on the MS-Exchange server at work. Worth
    checking out...

    	<www.thursby.com>

    Regards,
    Bob Anderson

Bob,
I was interested in knowing more about Dave and I visited Thursby's page.

Dave does add some major functionalities in the Mac to NT connectivity.
But I am not sure that RAS is the major one. RAS is just a PPP implementation, 
so Dave does not enable the access to RAS. FreePPP can also be used to dial 
in a RAS server, even with a DHCP server (dynamic IP address server). 
Many of us can already use Exchange from home w/o Dave.
The functionality that is missing is that I never could be called back by 
the RAS server, even if I configure the account in such a way, I should be
prompted for a call back number. 
 
What Dave offers is WINS and NetBIOS support, i.e. practically mount an NT
disk on your Mac's desktop and maybe WINS is the missing link to have a full
functionality of RAS.
This is my understanding, feel free to correct it.
Jean-Pierre.

    Bob,
    
    	Many thanks for the pointer to Thursby's DAVE.  I will check it out
    on the Web.  I was beginning to look at used Pentium PC, but they are
    much more expensive I imagine that continuing to use my 6115 (my first
    choice!).
    
    						Rich
    
    	The DAVE approach, I would imagine doesn't have the horrible serial
    I/O latency problems of the Apple DOS compatibility module and is
    probably what I am looking for.
    
    	

re       <<< Note 934.37 by ROCK::WATSON "N1GNB, DTN 225-4898, 293-5922" >>>
                 -< It looks like DAVE could be the answer... >-

    I am going to move my responses back to topic 948. Sorry
    to start a tangential discussion.

    Bob Anderson

    I do not know if this PPTP tunnel product will work with the Alta Vista
    Tunnel product, but if anyone has a way of finding out, it might be an
    alternative for the Mac community.
    
    					Bob Harris
    
    
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.comm
Subject: [ANN] TunnelBuilder, a new PPTP and PPP client
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:53:02 -0700
Organization: Network TeleSystems, Inc.
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected]

Network TeleSystems, Inc. is pleased to announce TunnelBuilder for Mac OS
(formerly NTS PPP), a new PPP client that also supports Point-to-Point
Tunneling Protocol (PPTP) virtual private networking with Microsoft's
Windows NT Server.  PPTP allows Macintosh users to dial into any ISP and
build a secure, encrypted tunnel to their internal corporate network
through the NT Server.

Besides virtual private networking, TunnelBuilder is also the only
Macintosh PPP client that supports Microsoft CHAP (MS-CHAP)
authentication.  This is the PPP authentication scheme that is most often
used when dialing into a Windows NT Remote Access Server (RAS).

TunnelBuilder also includes the ability to either dynamically negotiate
with the remote access server for DNS addresses or to manually specify
your DNS addresses directly within the Dialer application.  You'll never
have to visit the MacTCP or Open Transport TCP/IP control panels again to
switch configurations.

You can download a free evaluation version of TunnelBuilder for Mac OS
from our web site at:

http://www.nts.com

The TunnelBuilder for Mac OS FAQ is at:

http://www.nts.com/NTS/mactbfaq.htm

Below is the official press release.  When the final version of
TunnelBuilder is available in May, you will be able to purchase it
directly over the Internet.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Network TeleSystems first to offer Virtual Private Networking (VPN) 
Windows and Macintosh clients that interoperate with Microsoft NT Server 4.0

Network TeleSystems has introduced TunnelBuilder, a secure remote access
client that creates encrypted tunnels over the Internet using the
Point-to-Point Tunneling Protocol (PPTP). The TunnelBuilder PPTP client
connects servers running PPTP with Microsoft NT Server 4. TunnelBuilder is
supported on Windows 95, Windows 3.1, Windows for Workgroups 3.11, and
Macintosh computers. Previously, a PPTP client was available only with
Windows NT 4.0 workstations.

With TunnelBuilder, remote employees dial-in to a local Internet Service
Provider (ISP) then create a secure tunnel to their corporate network.
Once connected the user can access internal resources such as the
company9s internal web sites or file servers. This alternative reduces
costly long distance or 800 number access to company owned and maintained
remote access server(s). TunnelBuilder requires no modification to an ISPs
dial-in access server as the tunnel initiation and encryption is handled
at the user9s PC . This results in an ISP-independent solution, allowing
an employee to create tunnels over any existing ISP dial-in service.

"The PPTP server piece of the solution has been shipping as part of NT
Server 4.0 but very few companies have implemented it due to lack of PPTP
clients for laptops and home systems.", said John Davidson, CEO and
founder of NTS, "TunnelBuilder fills the client void for the entire
installed base of remote Windows and Mac users, making PPTP available for
corporate-wide deployment."

Pricing/Availability

TunnelBuilder will be available in May for $99. A beta version for the
Macintosh version of TunnelBuilder is immediately available from the NTS
web site, http://www.NTS.com. Windows beta versions will be available by
the end of April.

Network TeleSystems, Inc. (NTS), headquartered in Sunnyvale, Calif.,
offers products focused on solving problems related to the infrastructure
of TCP/IP Intranets and the Internet. These products include IP address
management, redundant DHCP servers, Dynamic Domain Name System (DDNS)
servers, NetBios Name Servers (NBNS), Virtual Private Networking clients,
and PC TCP/IP stacks and applications. Network TeleSystems, Inc. is
privately held. The company9s web site is http://www.NTS.com and phone
number is (408) 523-8100.

I've indicated our interest in a Macintosh version of the AltaVista tunnel in
the Internet Tools conference, note 2925.19.

	GYRO::INTERNET_TOOLS
	[email protected]

Paul

� I just spoke with a reliable source at AltaVista.  They are investigating
� whether or not to do a Mac tunnel.

I guess I'd be Paul's reliable source, although people don't usually call
me reliable :-).

While it's nice to hear that zillions of people inside Digital want Macintosh
tunnel clients, and that maybe one or two will give us a rock for one, we'd
still love to hear about those thousands of customers who are interested in
paying cold, hard cash since that makes it easier to justify not only the
costs of porting, but the larger ongoing support costs.  If you know of large
Macintosh client opportunities, [email protected]
is the right place to send them.  Not to say that the feedback here isn't
valuable, but blah blah blah niche blah blah free blah blah Wintel rules
the world blah blah.

For what it's worth, we're looking at companies to do a Macintosh port
as well as provide support, but I have no idea where in the negotiations
we are, if anywhere.  They don't tell us engineers nothing cause we'd just
blab it in notes files.

Oh, you might want to change the title of this note.  PPTP is Microsoft's
proprietary (and rather poor) attempt at a tunneling product.  The AltaVista
Tunnel, on the other hand, is what's being discussed in all but one of the
replies.  And the one note that discusses PPTP for Macintosh should take
note that there are no PPTP servers to get you back into Digital and it's
unlikely that you'll see any any time soon given security considerations.

Jeff


+------------------------------+----------------------------------+
|Jeff Needle                   |[email protected]|
|Digital Equipment Corporation |http://www.ziplink.net/~needle    |
|30 Porter Road  LJO2-1/D13    |Phone: 508-486-2160               |
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