| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 177.1 | Have them take a look at OUTLINE | ATLAST::BOUKNIGHT | Everything has an outline | Tue Mar 31 1987 18:07 | 8 |
| For an interim evolutionary step, see note 174.* about a WYSISYG
front end (What You See Is the Structure You Get) called OUTLINE.
For the engineer, we have templates for several standard specification
documents (Component Specification and Development Plan) and would
be happy to entertain suggestions for additions to the kit.
jack
|
| 177.2 | | TOKLAS::FELDMAN | PDS, our next success | Tue Mar 31 1987 19:22 | 4 |
| What are the doctypes for producing the specification documents
mentioned in .1? Are they part of the standard net kit?
Gary
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| 177.3 | coming soon | ATLAST::BOUKNIGHT | Everything has an outline | Tue Mar 31 1987 22:57 | 4 |
| They are currently in test in the prototype and will appear in the
811 release. Hopefully, that's going to be early next month.
jack
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| 177.4 | | 7615::HAKKARAINEN | Albatross! | Wed Apr 01 1987 10:39 | 9 |
| Re .0
There are dreams for such a WYSIWYG front-end, but nothing available
now. OUTLINE can do good things for writers, but it won't give you the
WYSIWYG features I believe the engineer is seeking.
Plenty of discussion in the Electronic Pubs conference and in isolated
outposts in this conference about WYSIWYG, SDML, and other religious
issues.
|
| 177.5 | Helpful Tools | GLORY::OVERTON | | Tue Jul 14 1987 14:41 | 3 |
| re .3
Months have passed, are the templates available? Where?
|
| 177.6 | Yes, one day there will be... | CLOSET::PELTZ | �lvynstar Dun�dain | Tue Jul 14 1987 16:31 | 55 |
|
Sorry I didn't reply about this earlier. There are indeed
plans to offer a full set of workstation tools for
previewing, designing style templates and editing SDML
formatted files.
I am one of the developers of these tools. I was
hired for these projects about nine months ago and since
my first day there has been a moratorium on developing
any new workstation software using UIS on VWS. The only
hitch to this is until very recently there has not been
any other worstation software libraries to work with.
And even now, the Xtoolkit libraries which have been made
available are haphazard and insufficient for what we need to do.
So, there we were, twiddling our thumbs(and I began helping
out with Document code) until the DECwindows devos finish
thier part and allow us to begin application development.
In the mean time we began to spec out the tools.
Now along comes Adobe who says they will write a POSTSCRIPT
previewer for DEC. So we ask, can we use this previewer? How
robust will this previewer be? Can we modify the code to be
able to preview LN03 stuff? Answer: NOBODY seems to know
without violating some legal agreements. Anyway, nobody
wants us to reinvent the wheel so we will wait and see.
OK. Now how about a WYSIWYG editor? Well the folks
downstairs said, "Don't do that! We are going to make
one that will make your eyes pop out. And we are going
to call it VAXCDE (they later changed thier minds and
decided to call it something else, I forgot what). Now
here we are, hoping that these folks will allow thier editor
to be like TPU and allow us to put some SDML junk on top
of it. So, no use in reinventing again so we will wait
and see.
That leaves the style guide. Well, this is going to need
some major changes in Document's guts, and I am currently
specing this out. But, until DECwindows is a reality
this will not be available -- sorry.
Ever since I came to DEC I notice that people around
here (at least in engineering) love to build giant walls.
And you are not usually allowed to start climbing the
walls until they are built.
I am confident though that Document will one day have
an actual workstation front end, just like the rest of
the industry.
And that's the way it is -- Tuesday, July 14, 1987...
Chris
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| 177.7 | Gee, wished I'd said that! |-) | COOKIE::JOHNSTON | | Tue Jul 14 1987 16:34 | 8 |
|
>>> And that's the way it is -- Tuesday, July 14, 1987...
Courage, Chris -- still Tuesday, July j14, 1987...
Rose
|
| 177.8 | | SANTEE::GREENE | Michael Greene | Wed Jul 15 1987 14:08 | 15 |
| Re: .6
I agree with and have experienced the "wall strategy".
> I am confident though that Document will one day have
> an actual workstation front end, just like the rest of
> the industry.
Like a lot of other applications in the workstation space right
now, I just hope SUN doesn't become the workstation front end.
As they say, keep the faith!
Michael
|
| 177.9 | A home for OUTLINE in DOCUMENT land? | CITZEN::GENET | | Thu Jul 16 1987 10:10 | 36 |
|
re: .1 and .6
> < Note 177.1 by ATLAST::BOUKNIGHT "Everything has an outline" >
> -< Have them take a look at OUTLINE >-
>
> For an interim evolutionary step, see note 174.* about a WYSISYG
> front end (What You See Is the Structure You Get) called OUTLINE.
OUTLINE provides (via Gold Read) the user with a screen display of a
selected portion of the document. Now, this display is not really
WYSISYG since you leave the edit environment... but it is useable
substitute, and with OUTLINE's other functions and features the user
has a powerful writing tool.
OUTLINE output can be specified from a number of formats, some of them
are: Line Printer, LN01, LN03, MAIL, and DOCUMENT (HEAD3, HEAD4, BOOK,
and EDUOVERslides). Thus OUTLINE is useable either in non-DOCUMENT or
DOCUMENT environnments, or even in both environments, for different
aspects of the same task. As Jack said (in .1) an interim evolutionary
WYSISYG/DOCUMENT capability now exists.
Unfortunately, OUTLINE was determined to be a non-primary objective for
Jack and further efforts have been terminated. As a user of OUTLINE
(who is very disapointed at this termination of support) I would hope
to see the life of this extremely useful tool extended.
From where I sit (and its easy for me to say) The DOCUMENT product
development group would seem to be an ideal home for OUTLINE.
How about someone giving this serious consideration?
Regards, John
|
| 177.10 | Definitely look at OUTLINE!!! | NANUCK::SSMITH | Care Bears vs. Alien: Part III | Thu Jul 16 1987 20:11 | 14 |
| I thought there is a `What You See Is WHAT You Get' system for fancy
documents: WPS-PLUS and DECpage. ;^)
All things considered, it'd have to be ONE HELLUVA package to show me
what I'm getting with all the different doctypes. What would the
editor do with tags the particular doctype doesn't understand? Article,
Letter, Milspec, Overheads and some of the other doctypes to come (by
either Software Services or customers will) have restrictions on what
tags can or can't be in there.
It seems to me to make more sense to have a `What You See Is the
STRUCTURE You Get' editor: OUTLINE.
Shel Smith
|
| 177.11 | Yes, we will look at it. | CLOSET::ANKLAM | | Sun Jul 19 1987 14:44 | 2 |
|
re .9: yes, we will be giving it serious consideration.
|
| 177.12 | Oh, thankyou, thankyou, thankyou, ... | CITZEN::GENET | | Mon Jul 20 1987 13:00 | 2 |
| re .9: yes, we will be giving it (OUTLINE) serious consideration.
|
| 177.13 | Further support for OUTLINE | FNYFS::WYNFORD | The Rented Loony | Tue Jul 21 1987 06:02 | 68 |
| It was suggested that I post this here as well as in the OUTLINE file
to add to the support for you guys taking on OUTLINE. It also discusses
some things mentioned a couple of replies ago, in particular the
effect that the Mac is having on the marketplace.
The question I asked in the OUTLINE file was "Will Apple/Living
Videotext profit from this?".
Gavin
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Terry,
I am more than a littled concerned at the announcement that OUTLINE is to be
retired so I thought I'd let you know why. Others will doubtless do likewise
in the near future if comments I've heard around here are any indication of the
strength of feeling involved!
Unless other development work is going on in Digital that we are not aware of,
OUTLINE is the only DEC product that delivers the functionality of a good
thought/ideas procesor with a broad spectrum of possible outputs; DOCUMENT, VTX,
HELP, Mail and so on. Its use as a front-end to these products results in higher
quality output with a shorter turnround time. Other uses for OUTLINE are being
thought up all the time; meeting management (*very* useful at DEC meetings in
avoiding sidetracking and so on!), brainstorming sessions, personal notebooks
replacing scattered pieces of paper, telephone directories etc..
OUTLINE has no equal on Vaxen at the moment:
As a tool to aid/force clear thinking,
As a frontend for writing documentation,
As a tool for writing VTX databases (it cuts time needed by around 75%).
That covers the internal view. Externally I think there is going to be a
problem. A large number of sites (including a significant number of DEC sites
if Press reports are to be believed) are purchasing Apple Macintoshes for use
in the office environment. Those purchasing for DEC sites are doing so as an
alternative to buying VT220s and VT240s - the price/power ratio is better and
all you need is a terminal emulator and a bit of cable to have the best of both
worlds. At present there are four outliners available for the Macintosh and
there are TeX processors appearing on the market (thus competing with our own
recently-launched DOCUMENT). This all adds up to DEC letting a potentially
substantial market slip by without any obvious attempt at grabbing a share.
OUTLINE does not need much more work to be a viable and saleable product which
leads to my question: is there an alternative on the horizon? If so, when will
it appear? If not, cannot resources be allocated to get OUTLINE to market and
bring DEC firmly into the fast-growing sector of computer-based publishing?
I have a very naive view of the world; if I can do something easily and cheaply
on my Mac+ at home then I would expect (given the resources available at DEC) to
be able to do it (and preferably more easily and with better results) in the
office using my VT2xx and a Vax. The alternative is to do most of my work on
the Macintosh (giving dollars to a competitor but freeing up a VT) using the Vax
only for storage and data transmission where necessary. Multiply that attitude
across the spectrum of DEC's customers and you see my concern!
I put in the notesfile that I would not comment publicly on the decision until
I had a chance to express my feelings and hear your opinions; it is a subject
that I feel passionately about and I'd rather not embarrass you by talking
about something when I do not have all the facts to hand.
Best regards,
Gavin WYNFORD-JONES
ADG Support Group,
Ferney Voltaire, France
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