Conference vaxuum::document_ft

    A number of folks have reported problems when trying to access the
    DOCUMENT and EDUOVER kits on KIWI::. I believe all of these problems
    have been corrected. Please let me know if they haven't.
    
    Michael 

Michael --

I am trying to install the EDUOVER kit on our system and am having the 
following problems.  

The first attempt to copy the kit failed and doing a directory I found that 
the version EDUOVER010.A;10 was protected.  I copyied the ;9 kit successfully.

I put the kit in the [DOCTOOLS] directory and tried to do an install from there.
 
DCL> @sys$update:vmsinstal eduover010 sys$sysdevice:[doctools]

I got the following errors.

% VMSINSTAL-E-BADSPEC, File spec EDU$EDUOVER.STT cannot be parsed
- VMSINSTAL-E-BADSPEC, using default spec "DOC$Local_formats:"
% VMSINSTAL-E-INSFAIL, The installation of EDUOVERV1.0 has failed

I defined a logical DOC$local_formats to what looked like an equivelant
    on my system DOC$special_formats.
    
    This gave another error realted to DOC$local_tools which on my system
    looked equivelant to DOC$root:[root].
    
    This finally worked and the installation succeded.  
                                         
    In the documentation ther is section 2.1 it says to modify your
    login.com to execute @doc$root:[setup]doc$setup.  This directory
    does not exist on our system. 
    
    ? Does anyone understand why all of these logicals and directories
    do not exist.  I installed DOCUMENT from an early field test tape.
    Should I get an updated version and reinstall it.  The DOC$setup.com
    I cannot find on our system but document does OK for the other formats
    general, memo, etc.
    
    Dan
    
    PS I tried to send this via mail byt SANTEE:: was unknown to our
    system.
    

    Dan,
    
    I found the protection problem on the kit and fixed that -- sorry...
    
    About the missing logicals -- sounds like you're missing a lot of
    the DOCUMENT FT T1.0 logicals -- what version of DOCUMENT did
    you install? (This version of EDUOVER only works with DOCUMENT T1.0.)
    
    Michael
    
    PS SANTEE:: is 11.601 --- sounds like you system has either an
    incomplete or way out of date network database -- SANTEE has been
    around a long time...
    
    

    Is this the stuff being done by/for ESD&P, mentioned in note 35?
    I would like to use whatever is "most standard" (and hopefully "most
    functional").  I don't want to convert all my stuff to some arbitrary
    package that is likely to bite the dust.  Is this registered in
    DOCTYPE_DEF? (I tried to check, but can't seem to access that conference
    this morning).  If the answers are "no", can someone with real
    information please share it?
      * Is DOCUMENT ... OVERHEADS  *the* thing to use, or is it a base
        on which a more useful standard slide package for DEC-wide use
        is-being/has-been developed?
      * Is there a DEC-wide standard, or islands of "local standards"?
      * Is there an enlightening answer to a question I'm not asking,
        but should be?

    Well, I can't speak for the "standard" but I can tell you about
    EDUOVER. As the "author" of the package, I can tell you that I
    don't expect it "bite the dust". I've got a lot of folks using it
    regularly to create overheads, both in my own group and other groups.
    So it'll stick around. It started with DOCMENT BL5, went to BL6
    and now BL7.
    
    (I should also note that it wouldn't have been possible to do EDUOVER 
    without the help/efforts of Patti A. and others in the DOCUMENT development 
    group. Thanks!)
    
    Michael

    By the way, I'm part of EDU (Education Industry Marketing) not
    Educational Services.
    
    Michael

Someone else asked this either earlier in this set of notes or in some other
note, but I don't think anyone ever really answered:

What is EDUOVER?  What does it do that OVERHEADS doesn't?

Is there a pointer to a document that explains it in detail?


Thanx

Rose

    
    I installed the EDUOVER kit on our cluster and converted some slides
    from OVERHEADS -- major improvement!  When you're at the mercy of
    someone else's formatting tastes, it's nice to see decent formatting
    coming out of a "standard" package.  Great work!
    
    BTW, note 85.15 asks for some functionality that you may wish to
         provide in EDUOVER -- MG, *please* read the last portion of the
         note.  I'm interested in your opinion and in the likelihood
         of its incorporation.
    
      RE .7
    
    The kit mentioned in .0 installs documentation in SYS$HELP:EDUOVER*.*
    You can copy the manual directly from KIWI::SYS$HELP:EDUOVER_DOC.LN3
    
    (I'm not associated with DOCUMENT or EDUOVER -- just want to produce
     some slides.)
    
      RE .6
    
    Sorry I assumed EDU meant Ed. Services -- that's a natural thing
    to think in my org.  The Ed. Services people should be interested
    in this, though.  I know some in the AI part, and will tell them.
    The word might spread from there, too.
                              

    Re: .8 and 85.15
    
    Sorry, I must have missed the ideas about annotated and un-annotated
    overheads -- Sound like a great idea! In fact, this may also address
    some requests I heard for being able to generate overheads and a
    script together. So I'll see what I can do.
    
    That's the good news -- the bad news is that I work for a marketing
    group and the next 4-6 weeks are one of our two busiest times.
    So when I get back in the office in four weeks, I'll try to get
    something put together. In the meantime I'll give it some thought
    and see if I get the design done so that when I get back I can
    implement it. In the meantime, if you any particular ieas, they're
    definitely appreciated.
    
    Michael

      RE: .9
    
    Thanks for taking interest, MG.  It would be nice if the DOCUMENT
    developers took interest and did something like that in the base
    package, so it would be available for all doctypes.  Then again,
    I just made the request yesterday...
    (I can wait, but I'm impatient by nature!)

    I ran across a couple glitches as I was translating some slides
    to EDUOVER.
    
    1. <LINE_ART> doesn't seem to work right.
       Its behavior was intuitive in OVERHEADS, but it now uses the
       prevailing font, which is proportionally-spaced and too big.
    
    2. I expected
           <SUBTOPIC>foo<LINE>bar 
       to line up bar with foo, but it stuck bar at the left margin,
       which was even further left than the marker for <TOPIC>

    A very small "problem"...
    
    <TABLE>...<ENDTABLE> appears to work fine for me, except that it
    differs from the tables in other doctypes by not putting a line at
    the bottom of the table.  Was this intentional?

      RE: .12
    
    The problem turned out to be in OVERHEADS (too?).
    See note 284.
    
    BTW, Does EDUOVER load OVERHEADS, or is it a modified copy?

    Re: .13
    
    EDUOVER & OVERHEADS have the same ancestor -- a doctype called SLIDE
    in BL 5 of DOCUMENT. At BL5 time, I heaviliy modified SLIDE to get
    EDUOVER. 
    
    So it is somewhat based on OVERHEADS...but extensively modified
    
    Michael

    There was a recent note stating that there is a missing rule for
    end of table on overheads.  Might have been around since SLIDE and
    if so, present in both OVERHEAD as well as EDUOVER. Mike better
    check with the DOCUMENT folks.
    
    jack

    Jack,
    
    I made a quick check and in EDUOVER I win! (Do users of EDUOVER?)
    All the rules for tables in EDUOVER are set to zero height I think..
    
    Michael

    I installed EDUOVER on a BL08 system today.  It gave me several
    errors during installation -- all apparently related to definitions
    of logicals as discussed earlier in this note.  
    
    I put the EDUOVER files in the DOC$STANDARD_FORMATS directory and
    the EDUOVER definition in my local DOC$DESIGNS.DAT.  When I ran
    the sample file through DOCUMENT in batch it gave me the error:

    
    $	SET NOVERIFY
$ verify_context = 0 ! SYS$SCRATCH:DOC$EDUOVER_SAMPLE1.TMP - Start
$ d = "document"
$ set = "set"
$ set noon
$ set default sys$sysroot:[syshlp.examples]
$ D /BATCH/NOTAG/NOPRINT/KEEP EDUOVER_SAMPLE1 EDUOVER LN03
%DOC-I-IDENT, VAX DOCUMENT T1.0-008
[ T e x t   F o r m a t t i n g ]...
%TEX-I-IDENT, T1.0-005
%RMS-E-FNF, file not found
-SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHFILE, no such file
-TEX-I-FILENAME, 'DOC$ROOT:[TEX.FORMATS]TAG$STANDARD_FONTS.LN;'
%TEX-W-UNDEFINEDCS, Undefined control sequence
%TEX-I-SHOWCONTEXT, '->\eighteenpointss '
%TEX-I-SHOWCONTEXT, '                                        \spaceskip =.3em\bf '
%TEX-I-LINE, Error occurred on or around line number: 51
%TEX-I-SHOWCONTEXT, '\normaltextfontspecs'
%TEX-I-SHOWCONTEXT, '                    '
%TEX-I-FILENAME, 'DOC$STARTUP'
-TEX-I-ONPAGE, on page [1]
%TEX-W-UNDEFINEDCS, Undefined control sequence
%TEX-I-SHOWCONTEXT, '->\fam \bffam \tenbf '
%TEX-I-SHOWCONTEXT, '                         '

    
    etc.
    
    Prior to this error I was getting a similar error saying it couldn't
    find EDU$EDUOVER.LN03_FONTS.  So I took the EDU$EDUOVER.LN file
    and copied it to .LN03_FONTS and it stopped complaining about that.
    
    Have I got this whole thing screwed up?  How should this all work
    on BL8?  What do I do to straighten it out?
    
    Good grief!
    Dave

    
    I don't believe that Michael Greene is finished with the BL8 changes
    to EDUOVER. (The error you get is directly related to the file naming
    changes we made between BL7 and BL8.) I'm sure he'll post a NOTE
    when the BL8 version is ready.
    
    patti

    Yup.  I suspected it was something like that, but I was hoping it
    was not the version of the product but my standard brain fade method 
    of using it.
    
    Oh well, I'll just wait for the new version.  Is the next version
    going to be up to BL9?  
    
    Dave

    Sorry for my delay in getting this note here...
    
    I've just about wrapped up a new version of EDUOVER for BL8. Just
    one last problem to fix. I'll try to finish it and post it her early
    next week. Sorry for the delay...
    
    Michael

    
    Thanks to Mike for continuing to support EDUOVER.  I too tried to
    (re) install EDUOVER010 and got the naming errors.  After fixing
    everything obvious, I ran into an internal definition problem
    (\runningtitle) and had to give up.  Mike, when you finish the
    fixes, could you give us folks some installation notes telling
    us how to clean up after a bad installation?  Thanks.
    
    Harold