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Conference vaxuum::document_ft

Title:DOCUMENT T1.0
Notice:**New notesfile (DOCUMENT.NOTE) now available (see note 897)**
Moderator:CLOSET::ADLER
Created:Mon Feb 09 1987
Last Modified:Thu Oct 31 1991
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:897
Total number of notes:4397

67.0. "DOCUMENT & OUTLINE: synergy in action?" by GOJIRA::PHILPOTT (Ian F. ('The Colonel') Philpott) Fri Mar 06 1987 12:59

    Feedback request:
    
    I am part of the CSSE team working on DOCUMENT. Now I have been a contented
    OUTLINE user since long before the DOCUMENT field test started. Hence
    I never chose to use the 'standard' LSE interface to SDML that DOCUMENT
    uses. (I know a few things are not available directly from OUTLINE but
    I am sure that they could be added if needed, and any way I prefer to
    make small edits to the generated .GNC file when needed.)
    
    Now field test feed back on external field test sites for DOCUMENT suggests
    that some customers are concerned about the use of LSE as the [only]
    front end to DOCUMENT. I know that I personally find the product *much*
    easier to use with OUTLINE as the front end than using LSE (apart from
    anything else I find the tags in the text get in the way of my thinking
    about the text I am writing).
    
    I would appreciate your feedback on the relative uses of OUTLINE or
    LSE to produce the .GNC files for DOCUMENT, especially now the latest
    protype (X08.10i) allows post processing of the OUTLINE output, so you 
    don't need to learn DOCUMENT at all (other than knowing what document types
    are available, and other basic information).

    One feature I find particularly useful is the easy interface to spelling
    checkers provided by OUTLINE.

    /. Ian .\    
    
    Lest anybody think that I am condemning LSE for lack of knowledge of
    the product may I also say that I am the CSSE engineer responsible for
    LSE also. I am merely trying to explore processes to get the best possible
    products to market without re-inventing unnecesary wheels.
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name		DateLines
67.1POSITIVE SUPPORT FOR OUTLINEPUGET::SIPEFri Mar 06 1987 23:568
    Have been using OUTLINE as the pre_processor to DOCUMENT for about
    4-5 months now and am on a real sales campaign with everyone I come
    into contact with.  Jack has produced one of the most well thought
    out applications that I have run across in quite some time and at
    the same time he is the most accomodating developer I have ever
    worked with.  He really is writing something for the user!!
    
    I am a firm supporter of Jack and his product.  Don't stop now.
67.2We use both.NANUCK::PEREZBatches, we don't need no stinkin' batchesWed Mar 11 1987 22:4713
    I agree.  I've been encouraging people here in Minneapolis to use
    both OUTLINE and LSE as is appropriate to get Document.  We usually
    do all the initial work in OUTLINE.  I gives us an easy way to get
    drafts out  -- using Runoff which is faster than Document and exists
    on our local systems -- then make .GNC files and use LSE for putting
    in the fancy stuff.  
    
    Works great.  I think the OUTLINE and Document products work very
    well together.
    
    Dave
67.3Now for the other side of the coin ...UKOSC::BRUNNOCKAndy Brunnock - Greyhound ManThu Mar 12 1987 05:2721
    We don't use OUTLINE, so I can't comment on it's ease of use,
    functionality etc. but we do use LSE. I am a member of the U.K.
    Local Engineering and Support Group and we are trying to get developers
    to use LSE to standardise code output. As I am an ardent user of
    the VAXSET and especially LSE, although it may be slow at times
    it is definately one of the best engineering tools around.
    
    If you are deciding between LSE and OUTLINE, please, please, please
    do not drop support for LSE. Its hard enough to have to learn all
    the new products that come along (SCA, PCA, SPM etc) without having
    extra work (OUTLINE) thrust at the engineers.
    
    Another thing to consider is the installed user base of OUTLINE.
    The only time I have headr of it is through this notes file. Maybe
    its because I am in the U.K.?
    
    An interface to both would be nice (the more the merrier as the
    saying goes).
    
    Andy
67.4Not less, more.SEAPEN::PHIPPSThu Mar 12 1987 08:4732
>   it (LSE)is definitely one of the best engineering tools around.
                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^
        and
    
>   extra work (OUTLINE) thrust at the engineers.
                                       ^^^^^^^^^
        I think that says it pretty well. In fact in my opinion, OUTLINE
        reduces the amount of work. 

>   If you are deciding between LSE and OUTLINE, please, please, please
>   do not drop support for LSE.
    
        I don't think anyone was advocating that!

>   Another thing to consider is the installed user base of OUTLINE.

        I think there are about 200 sites. Have no idea how many users. 
        Might be useful to know.

>   The only time I have heard of it is through this notes file. Maybe
>   its because I am in the U.K.?
    
        Try looking in on the {SHALOT|ATLAST}::OUTLINE Notes Conference.

>   An interface to both would be nice (the more the merrier as the
>   saying goes).

        Actually, OUTLINE is the interface to DOCUMENT/SDML... and VTX and 
        DSR/RUNOFF and HELP and Postscript and just about every printer 
        made. (I know I missed something.)

                Mike
67.5An OUTLINE Supporter38082::HOROWITZFri Mar 13 1987 07:5919
I tend to agree with Mike.

I work with a group of 50 writers. We have recently switched to using 
DOCUMENT as our main text formatting tool. However, we are quite unhappy
with the coding forced upon us. 

I volunteered to research a front end for DOCUMENT. I have been using 
OUTLINE for the past 4 months and while I found it a friendly and useful
tool for parts of the process, I did not think the product went far enough.

I then began looking at the LSE. What had taken me an hour to figure out
in OUTLINE I still have not figured out in LSE.

I will be making a presentation my group sometime in the next month. While I
was originally going to pan OUTLINE, I have now changed my mind. The product is
evolving for the better. OUTLINE does force you to change your work habits, and
become more organized. This is perfect for our writing group. 

So I find that Outline allows me to get back to what I was paid to do, WRITE.
67.6From very satisfied users ; keep up the good workIMAGIN::SAUNDERSDan Saunders @CX03 ; 522-5683Sun Apr 05 1987 19:5417
    I have been using outline for about 4 months now and have encouraged
    many users in our IS group to use it.  We find it very productive
    in organizing thoughts and creating all types of written material
    from memos to project plans, monthly reports, bussiness plans, and
    product documentation.
    
    I have just installed document FT1.0 and within a few minutes after
    I completed the installation I had created my first document output
    on an ln03 with no knowledge of document tags etc.  I am very pleased
    with both products.
    
    Further, I in helping our secretary to use outline she says that
    it is the easiest product that she has ever learned.  When I show
    her how she can directly make documents and overheads the amazement
    will be even more.
    
    Dan