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Conference ulysse::rdb_vms_competition

Title:DEC Rdb against the World
Moderator:HERON::GODFRIND
Created:Fri Jun 12 1987
Last Modified:Thu Feb 23 1995
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1348
Total number of notes:5438

1250.0. "1993 Gartner Group Midrange Conference" by NOVA::SWONGER (Rdb Software Quality Engineering) Fri May 21 1993 20:37

	Due to comments made by Wes Melling at the Gartner Mid-Range Systems
	Conference, we have had a few nervous customers in the last few
	weeks. Wes Melling in particular had some negative things to say
	about Rdb - including speculation that we might not be around in 2
	years.

	I will post the excellent mail that was distributed, comtaining
	notes about the Gartner Group report, as the first reply to this
	note. The second reply is the body of a letter that was hand
	delivered to at least one customer. The delivery and presentation
	ofthis letter are constantly being refined, but the meat of the
	message remains the same. I feel that it is important that this
	message get out across the company.

	Roy
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
1250.1Gartner Group ReportNOVA::SWONGERRdb Software Quality EngineeringFri May 21 1993 20:381227
>>>(mail forwarding headers removed)



                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                        Date:     04-May-1993 02:04pm EDT
                                        From:     Peter Lowber
                                                  LOWBER.PETER
                                        Dept:     U.S. Competitive Team
                                        Tel No:   297-6341

TO: See Below

Subject: Gartner Mid-Range Conference Notes                                     



                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                        Date:     03-May-1993 06:08pm EDT
                                        From:     BREUNIG
                                                  BREUNIG@VMSDEV@MRGATE@CSTEAM@MRO
                                        Dept:      
                                        Tel No:    

TO:  PETER LOWBER@MRO


Subject: NOTES FROM 1993 GARTNER MIDRANGE CONFERENCE                 



      
     +---------------------------+TM
     |   |   |   |   |   |   |   | 
     | d | i | g | i | t | a | l | I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O 
     |   |   |   |   |   |   |   | 
     +---------------------------+ 
      
      
     TO:  Distribution                       DATE: May 3, 1993    
                                             FROM: Kevin Breunig/
						   Peter Lowber
     CC:                                     DEPT: OpenVMS Product Mgmt/U.S.
						   Competitive Sales Team
                                             DTN:  381-1917/297-6341
                                             LOC:  ZKO3 / MRO1
                                             NET:  VMSDEV::BREUNIG/
						   CSTEAM::LOWBER
      
	***THIS MEMO IS FROM KEVIN BREUNIG AND PETER LOWBER***

		    ***  DIGITAL CONFIDENTIAL ***


SUBJECT: NOTES FROM GARTNER GROUP MIDRANGE CONFERENCE, APRIL 15-16, 1993
                                                              

Due to the wealth of information at this conference and its importance to
Digital, we have combined our notes to highlight key points made at the Gartner
Group Midrange Conference.


HIGHLIGHTS (AND LOWLIGHTS):

o  Gartner sent somewhat mixed messages about Digital.  Digital was
   represented as technology leader in key areas (clusters, RTR, AXP
   performance) but struggling with sales force and channels issues.  With
   Lucente's appointment to VP of Sales and Marketing, Gartner raised its
   probability that DEC will survive from 60% to 70%.  Bottom line was
   something to the effect of, the next year will be tough for Digital 
   customers, but if you see it through, it will be worth the wait (my
   paraphrasing.)

o  Despite this uncertainty, Gartner expects Digital to increase its share
   of midrange systems revenues from 15% in 1993 to 18% in 1998.  HP and
   NCR are also expected to gain share, while IBM is expected to lose share
   (22% --> 20% in the same period).  However, Digital will have a "difficult
   transition" as it is losing share today.

o  Gartner presented clear timelines and futures for each Sun, HP and
   IBM platform.  For Digital, it focused almost exclusively on organizational
   issues and previously announced Alpha products.  I do not know if this is
   because the organizational issues are foremost on customers' minds, or we
   have failed to present Gartner with a vision for the future of our products.

o  Fairly negative coverage on our NAS strategy (NAS diagram presented with
   a large circle and slash superimposed) and TP strategy (described as 
   "confused.")

o  Positive coverage on Digital's client/server infrastructure (Accessworks,
   RTR, ACMS), although considered "proprietary".  Reports from clients on
   porting applications to Alpha very positive ("no reports of 'bad ports'").

o  Choice quotes from Wes Melling - we need to turn around some of these
   perceptions:

	"DEC is culturally unable to write a positioning statement on
         these [TP and client/server] products"

	"You will see tremendous confusion in the field over the next
	 12 months..."

	"I would not be surprised to see Rdb go away in two years."

	"Digital rewarded the designer of its confusing, 5 API TP
   	strategy by making him VP of Software" (paraphrase).

	"Alpha is not enough by itself to make Digital profitable."

o  ON DEC's UNIX Strategies:

  	-  DEC must have a strong UNIX and OSF/1 provides that.
  	   Cultural issue:  Can you find anyone in DEC who has their heart
	   in UNIX? Not Many.

  	-  Digital believes strategically in a unified Unix strategy; 
  	   even if it does not believe in Unix emotionally, users should 
  	   not be concerned, as enough people understand the business 
  	   need for having a strong Unix offering.
                            
o  Midrange Evaluation Model (where OpenVMS historically leads) will not
   be updated until July (this despite vendor submissions in January -
   we should update with new AXP software availability and benchmark results).
    
o  All vendors are talking about "clustering" -- it is important for Digital
   to communicate its leadership in this area and force competitors to
   compete using our definition of clusters -- which includes high degrees
   of scalability and manageability.

o  Server Price War:

  - RADICAL Transformation in Mid-Range server pricing brought on in 
  1993 by Pentium Servers: Compaq, AST, et al-- 6-way, low-cost 
  servers.  Commodity hw.  Entry server prices around $10K.  Pricing 
  models move from value-based to PC-Model.
  - GG recommendation: Defer your choice for as long as possible until 
  the Mid-Range price war settles down.
  
  
o  Tandem and DEC lead with hi-volume tp (NYSE), but this will be 
   overcome by 1996 when HP, RS6000 will have High-Availability, 
   Clustering with tp.
  
o  Encina: powerful, with 3-level deployment and standards.  A lot of 
   customers have bought into it.
  
o  (Wes Melling) on UNIX: "I know of no UNIX System that has the 
   level of availability that I would feel comfortable with.  HP's 
   Highest Level of Availability is on MPE and not UNIX.  With 
   High-Availability UNIX Systems by 1996, I think UNIX will catch up."
  
o  (Wes Melling) on AS/400: "Not for high-volume tp.  I would 
   disqualify it for any situation for high-availability.  I'm not 
   talking about a reliable box (AS400 very reliable box).  AS/400 is 
   much like MVS: batch orientation: deliberate downtime for 
   re-ordering the data base, changing the software, etc."
  
o  (Wes Melling) Why should we forget about OS/2?: ISv's are writing 
   for NT for Both Desktop and Server applications.  By YE 93, NT will 
   have Repository, systems management tools, CORBA sw, tp monitor.  
   "NT will be light years ahead of OS/2 by YE 93.  OS/2 will be 
   over-run."





KEYNOTE (MYRON KERSTETTER)
--------------------------

o  Struggle will continue between end-users trying to build ad-hoc PC-LAN
   based solutions, and MIS trying to impose control through architectures
   and resource management.  65% probability that MIS will be able to 
   reassert control over IT spending as client/server management and
   development tools improve to acceptable functionality.

o  "Bottom up" IT spending (PCs, LANs, workgroup applications) will increase
   from 35% of total IT spending today to 55% in 1996.  

o  Key direction setters for "bottom up" computing will be Microsoft, 
   Novell, and database, 4GL and tools ISVs.  IBM, DEC, HP, Compaq, NetFRAME
   and AST will be "along for the ride."

o  "Top down" processing (batch, TP, PC integration), moving toward a 
   three tier model with fault and disaster tolerance, will continue to be
   an important computing structure.  Direction setters in "top down" 
   computing will be: IBM, DEC, HP, Oracle, Sybase.

o  "We believe all the major mainframe vendors have resigned 
   themselves to replacement of their traditional mainframes by 1996"

o  By 1994, midrange systems on a per-box basis will run at equal or
   greater speeds than mainframes.  Mainframes will continue to have some
   throughput advantages, but at a 50-100% price/performance disadvantage.

o  Disaster tolerant networked systems are expected to mature and supercede
   hardware fault tolerant systems beginning in 1994.  Gartner sees an
   expansion of disaster tolerant capabilities:


   CPU FAILOVER ---> STORAGE FAILOVER ---> SYSTEM FAILOVER ---> ENTERPRISE
								FAILOVER
   (Pair & Spare)    (Mirroring, RAID)	   (Clustering)		(Geographic
								redundancy,
								3-tier client/
								server)

o  Software architectures like SAA and NAS "failed to deliver on product
   or industry leadership."  Result is that customers will be taking a
   pragmatic approach to building client/server solutions.

o  Key requirements for "Enterprise Open Client/Server Processing":

	SYSTEM MANAGEMENT

		- Integrate system and network management
		- Address bottom-up desktop as well as server and
		  traditional processing products
		- Attract third party applications (populate
		  frameworks)
		- Accommodate heterogeneous client/server environments

	ONLINE TRANSACTION PROCESSING

		- Focus sales/products vis a vis multiple OLTP models
		- Client/server requirements in OLTP
		- De facto standard API support

	MIDDLEWARE

		- Distributable applications (c/s and replicated)
		- Interoperability
		- Portability
		- Global data access

	SYSTEM/SERVER PERFORMANCE

		- Absolute performance potential
		- Scalability of performance
		- Investment protection (upgradability)


o  Midrange System and Server Market ($15K - $2M)

        			1993		1998

	TOTAL MARKET 	   	$47B		$60B	~4-5% CAGR	
	(NEW HARDWARE AND
	SOFTWARE) WORLDWIDE

	MARKET SHARE

		IBM		22%		20%
		DIGITAL		15%		18%
		HP		13%		17%
		NCR		 6%		 7%
		UNIX		20%*		30%
		NT		--		26%
	
 	*(50/50 split workstations and servers)


o  Surviving midrange system and server architectures will be AS/400,
   OpenVMS (VAX moving to Alpha) and Unix and NT.


CLIENT/SERVER TECHNOLOGY (PAUL MCGUCKIN)
---------------------------------------

o  Gartner defines five styles of client/server computing:

	STYLE			BUILDING BLOCKS

	Distributed 		Screen Scrapers (Easel, Mozart)
	Presentation

	Remote      		X-Windows
	Presentation

	Distributed Logic	TP Monitor or 3GL RPC based applications

	Remote Data		Oracle, Sybase, Progress applications
	Management              Query tools for RDBMS

	Distributed		Complex user written applications using
	Database                RDBMS with two-phase commit


o  Distributed presentation and remote presentation are considered to
   be of limited use.  The Remote Data Management style often used today
   will give way to a 3-tier Distributed Logic model, which will require
   key pieces of middleware, such as:

	- message routing
	- security
	- directory services
	- integrity and recovery (e.g. RTR, TP monitors, message queuing)

o  Lack of a comprehensive client/server system management solution will
   remain the biggest cost and reliability impediment to mission-critical
   use of client/server.  "You should not rely on systems vendors to solve
   the heterogeneous management problem."
	  - Mid-Range players are not providing multi-vendor solutions 
         (includes HP Open View, which is UNIX-based, and DEC Polycenter).
 	 - Opportunity: no one is bridging the three islands (including MF's, 
 	 and PC-LANS- NetWare).  "No comprehensive set of tools.
  
o  Islands of Middleware will exist at many customer sites:

   - MAJOR disconnect between DCE-based in-house applications (which 
   many customers are planning on) and third party applications.  Third 
   party dbms's have their own "rpc's" (not support DCE); NetWare 4.0 
   is in the same boat.
  
o  The sophisticated middleware required for high volume client/server TP
   will imply vendor lock in and high levels of programming expertise
   until 1996; ability to code complex 3GL code with RPC and threads will
   be required in short-term.

o  Midrange price/performance expected to improve 35% annually through
   1996; Compaq has announced $5,436 per TPC-A.  $4000/TPC-A is probably
   the theoretical lower limit.

o  DCE is the preferred client/server infrastructure, according to Gartner
   Group.  Availability of DCE "secure core:"

		IBM AIX		1H93
		HP-UX		1H93
		DEC OSF/1	1H93
		DEC VMS		2H93
		HP MPE/IX	2H93
		SYSTEM V 	2H93
		NETWARE		LATE 93   P = 0.7
		NT		LATE 93   P = 0.6
		IBM OS/400	LATE 94
		IBM MVS		LATE 94

    Development tools will emerge in late 1993, early 1994


o  "Open Proprietary" operating systems (OpenVMS, MPE) will typically not
   be chosen as basis for open client/server computing (p=0.6).  According
   to Gartner, "the allure of high-functionality middleware and programmer
   inertia in using the familiar proprietary interfaces will often result in
   users ending up with the same lock-in that they had before the advent of
   "open proprietary" operating systems.

o  Windows NT will emerge by 2H 94 as a credible if not functionality 
   leading Enterprise Server Platform (ESP). GG's evaluation shows that
   NT will be ahead of other Mid-Range options for Middleware, and Desktop
   Integration, based on the ESP model.  It will be behind slightly in Network
   Infrastructure; and behind in Systems Management.  Significantly behind in
   hardware availability.
  
   - NT by 1995-96 will have a "steep" growth rate challenging UNIX.
   - "Expect DEC to add a lot of value; potential competitive Advantage 
      for the Server.
   - NCR is "holding at arms length" away from NT; walking away from 
     NT opportunities currently.
    
	NT STRENGTHS (2H94)			NT CHALLENGES

	OLE Object Sharing			Relative Immaturity
	Hermes software distribution		Comprehensive Network
	and license management			and Systems Management
	ISV attention (server and
	client)					SMP learning curve
	Bottom up buying preferences		Top down buying perferences


o  Forte was cited as one of a new breed of emerging development tools 
   enabling speed of development, RDBMS independence, and ability to
   support a variety of target deployment systems and configurations.

o  Pentium:

	- at least 6 vendors will ship Pentium servers in May
	- 2x performance of 486
	- uniprocessor performance will approach midrange of RISC
          architectures, but will not be competitive in floating point
          performance

o  Overall server/host market expected to grow less than two percent
   per year.  However, Unix will show tremendous growth (25-30% CAGR),
   growing to $30B in revenues (HW and SW) in 1997.   NT will also grow,
   slowly between 1993 and 1994, then ramping up and reaching $10B in
   revenues in 1997.   NetWare expected to grow slightly, OS/400 and
   OpenVMS expected to decline slightly through 1997.  MVS sales will
   decline from about $20B today to $15B in 1997.

	         



NEW MODELS FOR TP (WES MELLING)
-------------------------------

o  Promised a vendor comparison of TP architectures in 60 days

o  Divided TP Market into three segments:

   -- High volume/hypercritical (HV/HC): e.g. NYSE, SABRE; very high volume,
      downtime very costly

   -- Medium volume/mission-critical (MV/MC): medium volume, but high
      availability and integrity are critical.  Examples: hospital systems,
      sales order entry systems.  Cited L.L. Bean as an example, which
      processes 400K order lines per day, but in a 24x7 environment.

   -- Replicated site with roll-up (RSRU): volume not an issue, but
      distributability and remote system management are important.  Examples:
      Home Depot, Wal-Mart, Hyatt, Blockbuster, Toys R Us.

o  For less than 200 active users, a TP monitor is not necessary.  For
   1000+ users, it is critical.  Traditional TP monitors are being broken
   up into a set of distributed systems services.

o  Recommended a server-centric (rather than client-centric or "fat client")
   approach to high volume TP.  Client-centric approaches tend to create
   management problems and high volumes of message traffic.

o  TP monitors are expected to converge on OSI-TP, OSI-CCR (Commit
   Control and Recovery) and X/Open DTP APIs, with product support rolling
   out in 2H94, and real heterogeneous interoperability beginning in 1996.

o  Spent some time comparing vendor TP strategies:

	IBM: 1 API everywhere (CICS); multiple underlying technologies
		(S/390, HP, RS/6000, AS/400...); highly portable

	NCR: 1 API and one underlying technology (TopEnd); supports
 		NCR 3000, HP 9000 and RS/6000

	HP:  multiple APIs (CICS, STDL, Encina) with one underlying
	     	technology (Encina)

	Digital: "most confused strategy"; 5 APIs (ACMS, CICS, MUMPS,
		Tuxedo, RTR) with five underlying technologies.  ACMS
		and RTR are the most functional, but also the least
		portable.

o  Believes Digital and Tandem will maintain their lead in HV/HC systems
   through 1996; slide had picture of Disaster Tolerant VAXcluster running
   FDDI (no mention of MDF).

o  For lower volume MV/MC applications, other platforms with clustering,
   fault tolerant servers and 3-tier client/server capabilities become
   acceptable.  Examples: Encore, HP 3000, ES/9000, RS/6000, NCR, Pyramid.

o  Replicated Site w/ Rollup needs can be met with a RDBMS with client/
   server support (Oracle, Sybase, Informix etc.) or in some cases by
   a Novell LAN with a database NLM.

o  Quote: "I know of no Unix system [today] running high volume TP
   in a 24x7 environment."

o  AS/400 is disqualified from the MV/MC segment as he "has yet to
   see a high availability AS/400 configuration."  It is difficult to
   work around planned downtime in AS/400 environment. 

o  "Shared nothing" systems will replace clusters over time, as any
   shared resource becomes a potential bottleneck.




CLIENT/SERVER MANAGEMENT (PAUL MCGUCKIN)
----------------------------------------

o  Client/server computing changes the requirements for system management:

	NEW MANAGEMENT DISCIPLINES/TECHNOLOGIES:

	> Software Distribution
	> Network-based Backup/Restore
	> License Management
	> Middleware Management (e.g. Directory Services)

	REDEFINED MANAGEMENT DISCIPLINES/TECHNOLOGIES:

	> Security (authorization/authentication)
	> Configuration and change management (e.g. software version control)
	> Performance monitoring/capacity planning  

o  Maybe 8 management frameworks are being promoted by vendors today, and
   the proliferation of frameworks will continue through 1996.  An
   integrated platform like Polycenter, OSF DME or Candle CT is preferable
   to the "manager of managers" approach used by HP OpenView, UNMA or 
   NetView Service Point.

o  DME Framework based management applications will not be available until 
   1995, and will not reach critical mass until 1996.  

o  OSF is expected to announce that IBM will be the DME integrator, and IBM's
   SOM (System Object Model), which is CORBA compliant, is likely to replace
   Tivoli's object broker.  IBM's involvement increases the likelihood that
   that DME will be available in 1995.

o  DEC's Polycenter provides

  	- Integrated Platform of network and systems management
  	- single way of storing data
  	- recent enhancements allow for easier integration of third 
  	  party applications
	- integrated with PC's; can launch Polycenter applications
  	  from PC menu
 
o  SNMP Mangers (like HP's Open View):
  	- provide a useful but superficial level of integration
  	- increasingly being positioned as systems management
  	(as well as network management) platforms
  	- SNMP is not suitable for systems management (low level of 
  	security)
  	- OpenView is catching on
  	- Expect HP to announce in May a new OpenView to handle 
  	network and systems management for HP, Sun, IBM RS6000
                                                                     
o Backup and Hierarchical Storage Management: Legato Networker
  	- (with Legato) Can Backup NetWare and UNIX servers
  	- one of few products that can b-u NetWare from a UNIX server
     [NOTE: DECnsr is based on Legato]

o  DMTF (Desktop Management Task Force) and DSIS (Distributed Support
   Information Standards Group) will dominate standards setting for desktop
   management.  Novell and Microsoft will support DMTF drivers, and DMTF
   will also support an SNMP interface for management consoles.  Lack of
   DME integration direction may slow acceptance in large companies.

o  LAN based Electronic Software Distribution Systems will mature over the
   next 18 months.  Users should demand electronic software distribution from
   their vendors.  Major opportunity with no clear leader today.  Unix vendors
   may be making a mistake by focusing too much on the desktop.

o  License Managers expected to converge on one de facto standard around
   1995, and are expected to have 50% market share in that timeframe.  IBM
   is expected to focus its efforts around NetLS.  Only Gradient's NetLS,
   Digital's LMF, and Highland's FlexLm are flexible enough to accommodate
   new licensing models.  HP, IBM and the OSF are supporting NetLS.

o  "Legacy" management vendors are expected to focus more on downsizing
   market than c/s.  CA is porting to Unix, Candle is porting tools to 
   AS/400 and Unix etc.

o  Hermes provides a good foundation for management (e.g. license
   management/metering, ease of use) but will not be available until 1H94.
   (Note that CA has announced that Unicenter will be ported to NT).

o  Given the choice between Pathworks and NT for managing Windows applications,
   NT and Hermes "probably the better choice."  (Response to audience
   question).




IBM (MYRON KERSTETTER)
----------------------

AS/400

o  IBM had a tough year in 1992.  AS/400 revenues were down, RS/6000
   revenues grew only 30% (below a planned 50% growth rate).  Mainframe
   revenues are expected to continue to decline 10-15% per year through
   1995.  1992 revenue mix:

	- ES/9000: $35B
	- AS/400:  $14-15B
	- RS/6000: $2B

o  Less and less reason and incentive to create Common sw between IBM 
   platforms: SAA Fallout; The new IBM is the reversal of SAA
  
o  Single Sales Force: the Flaw of the New IBM
  	- EXPECT IBM to separate the Sales Force
  	[NOTE: According to Open System Today, this is beginning to 
  	happen as IBM is training a specialized RS6000 sales force]
  	- The Sales Force now has Product Specialists
  	- The IBM General Business Org
  	--- in Canada now- focused on third parties; Partnership
  	Management; for RS6000, AS400, PS2
  	--- this could emerge as a major structural change
  
o  ES9000: Low-Cost CMOS (1994-95)
  	- Gartner believes IBM will not succeed in shoring up ES9000
      	revenues
  	- Continued Erosion of MF's
  
o  IBM looking at developing a common RISC architecture for AS/400, 
   RS/6000, ES/9000 and OS/2, possibly based on PowerPC with different 
  "personalities" for each OS.
  
o  IBM will be a catch-up Follower and Unable to return to 
   architectural leadership 
  
	- Top Down SAA Failed
  	- Industry Moving Bottom Up
  	- IBM Open C/S: "Open Distributed Computing": No Leadership;
  	
o AS/400

  	- While IBM is committed to multi-vendor support for AS400 
  	(networking and PC clients), the AS/400 is rated low by 
  	Gartner in PC usability factors (solutions compatible with PC 
  	applications and network-based systems management) and 
  	Platform Optimization (AS400 optimized for 5250 timesharing 
  	only)

  	- LAN performance is poor for AS400; need better I/O 
  	bandwidth
  	
  	- IBM is positioning the AS400 for C/S Remote Data Access
  	(with third parties like Gupta and with DRDA)
  	---[NOTE: BUT remember the AS400 Cannot Support third party
  	DBMS's like Oracle, Sybase, etc.  This SHOULD eliminate it
  	from most Information Access Applications in Enterprise
  	Client/Server--- Peter's opinion].
  
       
o  CICS will not be the preferred API for TP applications; developers
   will continue to use native OS/400 interfaces

  	-- NO ONE (no customer) at the Gartner AS400 user session
  	(about 35 AS400 users) said they were interested in CICS/400
  	- OLTP Strategy: AS/400 is Low-Volume; not 7X24X52
  	-- AS400 apps use OS/400, not tp monitor	
  

o  AS/400 offers online backup today, but it causes degraded performance.
   Loss of a CPU in an SMP configuration crashes entire system.

o  AS/400 will continue to be a good general purpose application server,
   but a relatively weak database server.

o  In answering a Question about AS400 High-Availability Myron said 
   that "it can take days to recover files if a disk drive crashes 
   [because of single-level store]; there is no clustering; no fault 
   tolerance.
  
o  AS/400 Futures:
  
  	Message Q (IBM developed this with SSI- not shipping yet)
  	is new and is IBM-centric
  	
	Stored Procedures (2H93 - V2R3)
	AppleTalk, SPX/IPX support (2H93)

	Port of Candle system management tools (IBM will have exclusive
 	rights to selling Candle/400 products) (year end 1993)

	G Models w/ I/O RISC processor, upgradeable (1H94)

	POSIX 1003.1, .4, .4a, DCE, XPG4 "enabled" (late 1994)

	H Models - minor refresh of line (1995)

  	Delivery of Object Model (SOM) for AS400 (1995-6)

	Plans to support third party databases?  NONE
                                               
  	"AS4000" RISC; 64-bit using PowerPC 620 chip- "expect easy migration"
	(1996)  

  [it should be noted that Gartner is no longer listing "clustering" 
  as an AS/400 future - RS/6000 will fill this role.]


o  Gartner projects continued unit growth for AS/400 within its installed
   base [Note: AS400 revenue declined by 2% last year; -10-15% in Europe;
   Decline in 1Q 93 likely since IBM said nothing about AS400 in
   its 1Q report]

o  AS/400 TPC-A results are not competitive, even with F-series announcement.
   TPC-C results are better, but IBM will continue to price more aggressively'
   at low end than the high end:

	SYSTEM		tpm	K$/tpm

	AS/400 F80	580.3	$3.28
	AS/400 F35	 98.6	$2.44
	AS/400 F10 	 66.1	$2.10
	RS/6000 570	356.4	$2.00
	HP9000 H40	406.6	$2.77







o  AS/400 vs. OpenVMS and Unix


				AS/400		VAX/VMS		UNIX

"OFF THE SHELF" COMMERCIAL	E		F		F
APPLICATIONS

COST OF STAFF			E		G		G

COST OF SYSTEM			G		G		E

HIGH PERFORMANCE OLTP		G		E		G

PC INTEGRATION, CLIENT/SERVER	G		G		G

ARCHITECTURAL LONGEVITY		G		F*		G

HIGH AVAILABILITY		G		E		**

SYSTEMS MANAGEMENT		F		G		P++

PERFORMANCE SCALIABILITY	F		E		G

ARCHITECTURAL ADAPTABILITY	F		E		G

OPEN SYSTEMS COMPLIANCE		F		G		G

COMPUTE INTENSIVE		P		G		E


KEY: E = EXCELLENT, G = GOOD, F = FAIR, P = POOR

* Digital is shifting from VAX to AXP; OpenVMS functionality should be fully
  ported to AXP by mid-1994

** HA features vary greatly by Unix version

++ Unix system management improving rapidly, with capabilities varying by
   Unix version




RS/6000
  
o  has't turned the corner; still maturing; many IBM customers have 
   RS6000 pilots; IBM has not gained much in 
  	
  	- the oposite of the AS400 profile: platform optmization 
  	strong, but solution level integration weak (reliance on third
  	parties for this); PC usability is also weak
  
  	- Will IBM's added value succeed?? Not clear that customers
  	want CICS, DRDA, DB2/6000 for RS6000
  
  	- Focus on Systems/network management: NetView/6000 is
  	based on HP OpenView: point solution; lacks a framework
  	for integration; IBM and HP are working on this; likely to 
  	become the COSE std
  
o  RS/6000 continues to lag in Unix performance and Scalability; SMP
   not expected to be available until Q1CY94, when RIOS2 systems are
   available.  RIOS2 systems are expected to approach 250 tpsA.
  
o  HACMP "clusters" now support failover between two nodes; however, 
   special IBM disk drives and Oracle V7 are required, making it a 
   "closed" solution.   Expected to be enhanced to support 4 nodes in future.

o  RS/6000 & AIX Futures
  

	CICS/6000 (June 1993)

	SMP systems (2-4 way), 32-bit, RIOS2 based (Q1CY94)

	AIX V4.1: supports SMP, SOM, DCE Distributed File System,
	  DB2/6000, Native NetWare (Q1CY94)

  
  	RIOS-2
  	-- stop gap; nine chip Module; 32-bit; YE93
  	-- to cover the high-end not covered by PowerPC 601,602,604
  	-- 240TPS (Alpha is faster now)
  
  	PowerPC 620: YE94; ship 1H95
  	64-bit; MACH-3 kernel operating system 

  	- Shared Memory Cluster (SMC): 1H95
  	--- this is very confusing; SMC requires some changes in 
  	applications to implement; why do this when you have SMP?
  

o  IBM will have similar problems to Digital in positioning AS/400 and
   RS/6000.  Positioning will increasingly be done by customers, many of
   whom have both.




HEWLETT-PACKARD (GEORGE WEISS)
------------------------------

o  HP background

	- now at 92,000 employees

	- FY1992 revenue mix:

		TOTAL REVENUES				$16.4B

		NON-COMPUTER RELATED  			$ 4.3B
		COMPUTER RELATED                      	$12.1B

			STANDARD PRODUCTS               $ 5.7B
			(PCs, Printers, disks)
			PROFESSIONAL SERVICES           $ 0.6B
			SYSTEMS                         $ 5.8B
				HP9000                    76%
				HP3000                    24%
                              
	- Installed base:

		HP3000 (MPE)		55,000*
		HP9000 (UNIX)		30,000

		*NOTE: only 1/3 of HP3000 base is RISC based MPE/iX
		
                Allbase runs on 20% of HP3000 systems
		Only 85 high end HP3000 Corporate Business Systems installed
                Total Corporate Business Systems orders = 200 orders,
			50/50 split MPE/HP-UX


o  HP's goal is to raise its credibility with Fortune 500 class accounts
   on par with IBM and Digital.  HP is expected to grow from being a 
   "strategic vendor" in 20% of F500 accounts today to being "strategic"
   in 60% of F500 accounts by 1995

o  Key Issue: How to make the transition to an Enterprise Vendor
  	- George asked the HP users in the audience if they felt HP
  	was a strategic enterprise vendor and the vote overwhelmingly
  	was YES.  This was not the case at past GG MidRange 
  	Conferences
  
o  George clearly sees DEC as the major competitor for HP
  
o  Challenge: Build a strong MIS relationship and Professional 
   Services ability to build an infrastructure is impacted by the HW 
   Price Wars
  
o  HP's Primary Strategy is HW Sales
  
o  Trying to provide MF Alternative Systems: 100 S/890's shipped so 
   far (50 MPE; 50 UX) replacing IBM 43XX's MF's
  
o  Offer Open Systems Foundation Building Blocks
  	- HP proprietary Sw (Open View, Performance View, SwitchOver)
  	with hooks for third party solutions
  
o  HP is targeting AS400's (but this is a shaky strategy: How many 
   AS400 users will be willing to move to HP/UX?
  
o  HP SharePlex: Not VAXclusters; not large clusters for scaling 
   performance,  But can balance the workload; remote shadowing files 
   over WANS for disaster recovery
  
o UNIX not reliable for hi-volume OLTP
   - working on kernel UX since 1981; stable kernel; keep building on 
   this to create reliable environment; OSF/1 would have been an 
   interruption; minimize the transition disruptions; 64-bit is 
   something you can wait for; next release of UX 10.0 offers threads 
   [available now with OSF/1]
  
  - Question: Given the importanc eof the Kernel, why did HP stay with 
  SVR3 instaed of SVR4?
  - George gave the same answer: THat HP will only make one 
  transition- to the micro-kernel technology.  Making a transition now 
  would "only cause a hiccup in sales"
  
  o OpenView----> working with Novell for OpenView with NetWare
  - offer CA Unicenter as well (as an option)
  
  o Client/Server: to offer pre-configured solutions with UX Servers
  - HP Professional Services Organization ($600M) is adding people 
  with "the intent of providing more of a systems integration."
  HP is moving gradually and may vary by account in terms of their 
  ability.
  
o  HP expected to enter superserver business with Pentium based SMP systems
   running NT and NetWare 4.0 (2H93)

o  Current Corporate Business System performance (HP3000-99x and HP9000-89x)
   at 180-200 tpsA (uniprocessor) and 380 tpsA (4-way SMP) (all figures are
   host based).

o  HP is expected to announce second generation of Corporate Business Systems
   in Q3 or Q4 for CY93 with 8-way SMP, and performance of 230 tpsA (uni) to
   1200 tpsA (8-way).  Pricing is expected to be in the $8000/tpsA range.

o  GG believes HP can boost the performance of PA-RISC up to five times
   today's performance, with 200-250 Mhz clock speeds, in five years.

o  HP will continue to invest in MPE/iX to improve its robustness relative
   to MVS as part of its Mainframe Alternative Program.  However, there is
   only a 50% probability of significant investment beyond 1995.  PA-RISC
   is expected to maintain HP3000 longevity through the end of the decade,
   although HP3000 system revenues are expected to decline from $1.5B in 
   1992 to about $1 billion annually.

o  Investments in MPE/iX robustness/availability include:  subsystem file dumps,
   page de-allocation, predicative failure reporting, job scheduling, resource
   management, extensions to SharePlex "clusters".

o  HP3000 Futures:


	SharePlex Cluster/Disaster Recovery capabilities (1H93)
	SharePlex Systems Management (later in 1H93)
	
	8-way SMP, RAID 5, Encina and CICS TP (2H93)
	
	2-way Midrange systems, FDDI support in SharePlex (1H94)
	Improved OS resilience & recovery, job scheduling, 
		resource management (1H94)

	Mixed HP-UX and MPE SharePlex (2H94)
	4-way 120 Mhz Midrange (2H94)
        Third Party OpenView Management Applications - CA, Candle,
		Legent (2H94)
	
	16-way SMP (1995)


o  HP will continue to invest in HP-UX through 1995, with gradual addition
   of OSF capabilities.  For example, OSF commands and libraries and DCE
   are expected in the HP-UX V10.0 (2H93)

o  HP will also continue to add high availability features to HP-UX.  Also
   expected in HP-UX V10.0:  transparent switchover, distributed lock 
   manager, fast file recovery, workload priority scheduling, striping,
   disaster recovery.

o  HP9000 Futures:


	OpenView System Management, threads, fast file recovery
		(2H93 - HP-UX 10.0)
		8-way SMP on 890 series, using 7100 chip,
		up to 1200 tpsA (2H93)

	RAID5 (2H93)
	Encina, CICS TP; DCE Services, OSF Commands & Libs (2H93)
        2-way Midrange Systems (2H93)

	Mixed HP-UX, MPE/iX SharePlex (1H94)
	
	Improved OS Robustness, recovery, switchover, workload mgmt
		(2H94 - HP-UX 11.0)
	4-way SMP 200 Mhz Midrange (2H94)

	SharePlex Disaster Recovery (1995)
	16-way SMP (1995)

	New Microkernel based OS (OSF based) (1996)

o  HP will adapt OpenView for systems management across MPE and UX by 1996




SUN MICROSYSTEMS (GEORGE WEISS)
-------------------------------	

o  Background:

	- FY92 revenues (FY ending June 92): $3.6B ($1.5 commercial
	  applications)

	- FY92 employees: 12,800 ==> revenue/employee @ $280K

	- FY92 channels mix:

		DIRECT		46%
		VAR/DISTRIBUTOR	34%
		OEM		20%

	- CY1992 workstation/workstation server market share by revenue
	  (total revenue = $10.8 billion)

		SUN		32%
		HP/APOLLO       18%
		DEC		10%
		IBM		16%
		SGI		 8%
		OTHER (INCLUDES
		CLONES)		16%


	- Estimated mix of workstation and workstation server products:

		> 50% low end
		> 35% midrange
		> 15% high end

	- workstation and workstation server installed base

		> SPARC: 780,000  (I believe this includes clones)
		> IBM POWER: 120,000
		> HP PA-RISC: 135,000


o  Sun's strategy is primarily volume-driven; Gartner says Sun has the goal
   of being the "Intel of the Unix market."  Sun will focus on systems
   downsizing opportunities, stressing price/performance.  Sun believes
   it has a superior business model to HP, DEC and IBM with a much lower
   cost structure and the ability to respond more quickly to market changes.
   This high-leverage strategy carries some risk:  for example, TI has
   had problems supplying high end SuperSPARC (Viking) chips.

   A chart was provided showing:

   LEVERAGE               	+ PRICE + BALANCED PERFORMANCE ==> VOLUME

   (Channels, OS, Mfg, Appls,
    Semiconductor Foudries,
    Binary Specifications)


o  Sun will have problems in the downsizing market as a) it still needs to
   forge close ties to MIS, and b) it lacks key enterprise server capabilities.
   Missing components include:

	- Large Storage Management
	- Data Integrity
	- Systems Management
	- High availability
	- Data warehousing/extraction
	- Open applications development and APIs
	- PC LAN/workgroup development tools
	- High performance OLTP
	- Leveraging existing middleware (ONC, NFS, NIS+ etc.)


o  Product futures:

	High Availability Failover/Clusters (3Q93)
	[this will be similar to limited failover in IBM's HACMP i.e.
	 loosely coupled systems running Oracle V7]
	Software License Management (Q493)
	XPG4 Base Branding (Q493)
	DCE Support Package (CDS, RPC, DTS, Security) (Q194)
	ONC+ (1H94 - includes 64-bit file support)
	System Management Framework (Q294)
	
	Federated Services (1995)

	CICS API, CA tools (1995)

o  SPARCcenter 1000 expected announcement soon; 4-Way SMP @$45K entry

o  SPARCcenter 2000 expected to scale to 325-350 tpsA (4-way) by mid-1993;
   may reach 700 tpsA by 1H94

o  Perhaps in response to AXP performance, Sun is now saying it can
   get by with 10-20% less raw performance than other RISC implementations
   if it can offer products at 40-50% less cost.  Sun is showing a roadmap
   for its next generation RISC chip (UltraSPARC), which will begin rolling
   out in 1995.  It is expected to run at 140-500 Mhz, scale to over 20-way
   SMP, and initially run at 300 SPECfp, scaling to over 1800 SPECfp in
   1997-8.





  NCR (PAUL MCGUCKIN)
  -------------------

  * Severe product delays have hurt NCR credibility and there's 
  customer skepticism.  ISV's have moved their attention away form NCR 
  to HP, Sun, IBM.
  
  * NCR has lost market share over the last two years.  But now they 
  do have the products to ship
  
  * Within the last month, NCR consolidated marketing to One Group
  
  * Close development relationship with Intel for Pentium.  NCR will 
  announce Pentium end-May.  BUT it Won't support NT!  NCR has a 
  passive position on NT as a server.  NT will run as a client, but 
  NCR has walked away from NT opportunities this year!  NCR's
  strategy is SVR4-based.
  
  Products
  NCR 3450, 4X486  228 TPS  $6,302 (2nd best behind Compaq)
   	         (Oracle       3430
                         



DIGITAL: WILL A VISION EMERGE? (WES MELLING)
--------------------------------------------
  
o  DEC is trying to do it all.  What's the new Vision statement from 
   the CBU's?  (Drafting a vision statement is one of Lucente's top 
   priorities).

o Commodity Business:

  	- DEC's PC and Disk Businesses growing Fast
  	- DEC has re-organized the Business here; not just product
  
o  Wes was positive on Alpha, which "on a box for box basis is 
   running twice as fast as HP [9000] and IBM [RS/6000] boxes."  He did 
   not discuss any Alpha or software futures.  These performance 
   numbers will allow Digital to "reenter the technical computing 
   market in strength."
  

o Alpha:
  	- 4,000+ installed, but not Production yet
  	- We hear the hw runs just like a VAX
  	-- OpenVMS runs "as good as any first version sw we have
  	ever seen on a new platform.. performance is excellent"
  	- Porting from OpenVMS VAX to OpenVMS AXP is easy
  	-  "We havent heard of a single bad port"
  	-- Medusa: 3 level rotational graphics; 250K lines C code--
  	3 man weeks to port--- complex applic-- quick port
  	- COBOL port easy; ran 16X faster than on VAX!!!
  	* 550K VAXes installed so Alpha will succeed simply selling to
  	installed base
  	- and DEC will get back into the engineering market in 
  	strength with Alpha
  	* BUT how does DEC succeed beyond installed base???
  
  [NOTE: Wes nowhere evaluated DEC's OSF/1 AXP, and only referred to 
  DEC's UNIX capability in response to a question]


o  However, Alpha alone will not ensure Digital's success.  He is concerned   
   that "fast iron" will lull Digital into complacency, and divert attention
   from urgent changes needed in marketing, sales, channels etc.

o  Most likely scenario (p=0.6) is that the Alpha PC succeeds in getting
   only 1-2% of the PC market, with a focus on high-end servers.  Assumes 
   Windows NT is slow to penetrate the PC market because of system resource
   requirements.

o  Was amazed that Digital released its first TPC benchmark for Alpha on 
   a DEC 10000 - Gartner had forecast $7300 per tpsA, and Digital came 
   in at $8300.  However, AXP is expected to be a price/performance leader.

o  Digital is backing away from NAS, and will not port most components
   to other platforms.  TP strategy is confused, with five different APIs
   supported.
                                            
  	
o DEC's Richness of offering for Client/Server
  	- RTR, ACMS, Accessworks, Polycenter, MessageQ, ACA Services,
  	  Pathworks
  	- BUT DEC is not able to position its client/server offerings
  	- And the more functional DEC gets, the more proprietary
  	- Trade off: Advanced Exclusive Functionality vs Equivalent
  	Functionality (open, portable) with Leadership Price/perf 
  	(Alpha)
  
o  Based on Lucente appointment, raised probability of Digital's 
   survival from 60 to 70 percent.  Survival = ability to build new 
   commodity channels and business models, and compete effectively at 
   all levels of integration.  Noted that this is the first time 
   Digital has put someone in charge of sales that has sales 
   experience.  "You are witnessing one of the biggest corporate 
   cultural changes at Digital that you will ever see."
  
o DEC's cluster technology: 1985 VAXcluster is comparable to today's 
  clustering from some competitors.

 	- HP et al do not provide automatic load balancing, automatic
  	reconfiguration, logical view of applications by multiple 
  	servers
  

o  In response to audience questions:
  
  - on DEC's UNIX Strategies:

  	- DEC must have a strong UNIX and OSF/1 provides that.
  	  Digital is committed to a unified Unix strategy.
        Cultural issue:
  	- Can you find anyone in DEC who has their heart in UNIX?
  	Not Many.
  	-  Digital believes strategically in a unified Unix strategy; 
  	even if it does not believe in Unix emotionally, users should 
  	not be concerned, as enough people understand the business 
  	need for having a strong Unix offering.
  
  
   -  NT will be functionally equivalent to OpenVMS in 1996 (70%
      probability.  However, OpenVMS is still the "best data center solution"
      for the next three years.

   -  Does not believe Digital is making money with Rdb, which is increasingly
      being focused on high volume TP applications.  Said he would not
      be surprised to see Rdb "go away" in two years.

   -  Digital's exclusion/non-participation on COSE is really a non-issue.
      Digital already supports most of the COSE standards, and has no
      motivation to beat up on Microsoft.



DIGITAL USER BREAKOUT SESSION
-----------------------------

o  (Kevin) also sat in on the Digital user breakout.  There was a lot of concern
   about sales and channels issues.  A few customers were very vocal; many
   of the customers just listened.  Representative customer comments:

   - sales force is confused about channels policy.  Account team does the
     leg work to set up the sale, and then Pioneer or Avnet are brought in  
     to take the order.  Pioneer or Avnet end up selling the product and
     bundling in a service contract.

   - sales force demoralized, don't know what Digital's vision is, don't
     know where next cuts will take place

   - only a few, usually the best, people are left in sales support.  Many
     former pre-sales consultants are now chargeable.  Sales support people
     now seem to supporting more customers, always on a plane, etc.

   - no corporate vision around client/server (GE Corporate)

   - problems with All-in-1 support, CSC would not resolve, had to
     elevate (Corning)

>>>(distribution list of approximately 300 people removed)
1250.2Message to customerNOVA::SWONGERRdb Software Quality EngineeringFri May 21 1993 20:42113
Digital's strategic relational database management system, DEC Rdb,
has recently received some extremely negative comments from portions
of the consulting community. We would like to take this opportunity to
refute some of the rash and uninformed statements that you may have
heard, and assure the you of Digital's continuing commitment to Rdb.

With regard to a particular comment about the impending demise of Rdb
within the next two years, we would like to assert that Digital is
fully committed to support and enhance Rdb for out installed base of
over 30,000 installations, and to drive forward with a strategy to
support new directions in the IT market. Rdb is clearly poised for a
new and significant period in its life cycle -- a period that will
demonstrate Rdb's leadership in performance, integration, and
innovation for the DBMS market. The vision and strategy for this
exciting future is described below.

Over the past year we have increased our investments in research,
development, and capital support for Rdb to meet the needs of our
customer base. This investment has made possible world record
performance, highly tunable systems, robust data integrity and
security, and delivery of leading edge standards and distributed
capabilities. We have further expanded and enhanced our support
organization, to become more responsive to the needs of today's
changing market. The market today demands outstanding performance,
interoperability, and portability, and Rdb is moving to provide the
best-in-class solution meet these needs.

We have announced world record uniprocessor performance for a relational
DBMS using the TPC-A benchmark, record sort performance using the
Datamation Sort benchmark on Alpha (an Advanced Development project),
and directions in support of VLDB. We have announced directions that
include the porting of Rdb to the OSF/1 and the Windows NT operating
systems on AXP systems -- synchronized with enhancement of our OpenVMS
offerings. We have received awards and recognitions from Datamation,
Computerworld, and Digital News and Review. We view these achievements,
awards, and directions as the start of a significant period in Rdb's
life cycle, not the end.

Digital's database strategy is driven by the direction of the market,
and the competitive environment. As a company, Digital sees three
significant trends in the IT market:

    o Downsizing - the trend away from mainframe datacenters to fast,
      economical, desktop PCs and workstations.

    o Client/server computing - the integration of these fast and
      economical desktop machines into powerful and coherent distributed
      systems.

    o Very Large Databases (VLDBs) - the growth of databases up to
      hundreds and even thousands of gigabytes in size.

We view these trends as complementary, not divergent. All of these
trends present significant opportunities for Digital systems,
software, and services -- particularly around the new AXP systems as
the focus for downsizing and client/server applications. 

While we believe that Rdb and AXP systems provide the best solutions to
your database management needs, we recognize that there are certain key
vendors in the market who have widespread acceptance and demand from
existing and potential customers. These vendors have significant
presence and customer loyalty, both in existing Digital customer
installations, and in IS shops where we would like to develop a
presence. 

The database strategy builds on these assumptions with three thrusts: 

1) Provide the world's best database performance, with leadership
   production quality relational DBMS and an emphasis on graceful
   handling of VLDBs, satisfying the needs of downsizing and
   client/server applications;

2) Provide world-class data integration across multiple relational
   database managers, from multiple vendors and on multiple hardware
   platforms;

3) Make Digital's AXP systems the hardware platform of choice for
   database management, for any vendor's DBMS.

Digital's investment and support of Rdb and related interoperability
products is the result of the first two elements in the strategy.
Digital's relationships with Oracle, Sybase, Progress, IBI, and other
RDBMS vendors are a direct result of the final element in the
strategy.  

In conclusion, we see that our existing customers, and the companies
that we want to become our customers, are deeply committed to multiple
product offerings. We also realize that a spirit of fierce competition
without limiting choices best suits the reality of complex IT
environments. Our strategy and focus is on delivering best data
manager, Rdb, on open platforms (OpenVMS, OSF, and NT), adhering to open
standards, such as SQL and XA.

Further, we will deliver the best data interoperability through
announced and planned RdbAccess and database integration products. We
believe that your investments in other data managers can be preserved,
while the best choice for new or re- engineered systems will obviously
be Rdb.

We respectfully believe that independent consultants who have
extrapolated the potential demise of Rdb are wrong, and we have no
intention of canceling Rdb or even of reducing our investment in it.
We further view comments by third parties about Digital's database
plans as marketing ploys -- spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt,
without any basis in fact. While the avowed philosophy of at least one
independent database vendor is "It's not enough that we win, everybody
else must lose," we believe that database users and Digital both win
when we accept and compete in a heterogeneous market.

That is why Digital's vision and strategy will continue to invest in
providing the world's best DBMS performance, integration, and
interoperability with Rdb and the AXP systems.

1250.3aaah, it was OracleGRANPA::KMCGINNISHeidi-ho is Junior HunterMon May 24 1993 19:0621
    re:.1
    
    Towards the end, a Gartner pundit talking about Rdb performance:
    
    "o Was amazed that Digital released its first TPC benchmark for Alpha
       on a DEC 10000 - Gartner had forecast $7300 per tpsA, and Digital came
       in at $8300."
    
    Has anyone straightened them out??? That was not a total Digital
    benchmark.  Oracle!
     
    SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA -- May 5, 1993 -- Digital Equipment
    Corporation today added to the Alpha AXP platform's credentials as
    the database server of choice for computer downsizing by announcing
    breakthrough midrange price/performance and performance results on
    the TPC-A Benchmark.  At $6,643/tpsA, the new DEC Rdb Version 6.0
    running on a DEC 7000 Model 610 is the first relational database to
    deliver production-quality database performance on a midrange server
    at under $7,000/TPS.  At 302.68 tpsA, it offers the best performance
    in its class -- over 64% faster than HP's best tpsA uniprocessor
    offering. 
1250.4temporal logicTPSYS::SHAHAmitabh "Drink DECAF: Commit Sacrilege"Mon May 24 1993 22:284
	Re. .3

	Gartner conference was held before May 5 when the DEC 7000 Rdb numbers
	were announced. 
1250.5yes but..SSGV01::NEEDLEMANTue May 25 1993 15:529
    
    and please remember, Wes is only one of the Gartner analysts. The
    others are not so negative. Wes is not looking at Rdb technology,
    simply at a business model to compete successfully, when it is not
    offered off DEC hardware...
    
    B
    
    
1250.6Yes but but...NOVA::SWONGERRdb Software Quality EngineeringTue May 25 1993 16:086
	I agree that Wes is just one analyst. However, the fact that *we*
	know what's right, and that other analysts know what's right (in our
	view, anyway), doesn't change the fact that we have to combat this
	type of incorrect information.

	Roy
1250.7Also....TPSYS::SHAHAmitabh "Drink DECAF: Commit Sacrilege"Tue May 25 1993 20:395
	Re. .5 and .6

	Wes Melling is the demi-god of the Mid-range Computing (or whatever
	it's called at Gartner); this is where DEC competes, and thus his
	opinion should matter a lot.
1250.8Re: Letter to customersSTOHUB::DSCGLF::FARLOWSimplify!Wed May 26 1993 01:2723
My thoughts:

First, my impression of Wes Melling is that he has been a proponent of Digital's
systems and in the past has rated VAX/VMS systems as the superior midrange 
system over AS/400 and other UNIX systems.

Re the letter, I would not be so defensive.  I would like to try to better 
understand why GG may have the impression that they do and then in positioning
Rdb mention why some may misunderstand the strategic importance of Rdb.  Then, 
follow up with a powerful account of Rdb's current strengths and the directions
we have for it - ODBC, Data Integrator, RdbAccess, High Performance, Development
and Tuning tools, multiple platforms etc. Cite installed base and perhaps some
examples of large customers using Rdb for advanced applications.

I would prefer not to reinforce the negative comments by directly mentioning them
and addressing them.  If we sound to defensive, some could think that they might 
be true.  If a customer asked me about the comments, I would just say that the 
idea that Rdb would go away is ridiculous and then discuss its strategic 
importance. 

Thanks,

Steve
1250.9Interoperability alone is NOT the answer.MSDOA::SECRISTPaycheck by Rdb.Wed May 26 1993 05:1328
re: .5

	; Wes is not looking at Rdb technology, simply at a business model 
	; to compete successfully, when it is not offered off DEC hardware...

If this is the point Wes was really driving he was RIGHT ON TARGET.
Rdb is losing share in my fortune 500 account, and the opinion has
been asserted in recent notes that since Rdb isn't on non-DEC
platforms that this was the primary reason behind the D&DM CBU 
withdrawing its support.

In two years it may be a fact that Rdb could have a hard time competing 
in those accounts that have placed a higher premimum on portability than 
on functionality and performance.  These accounts would rather have a
database that performs equally bad on all platforms rather than one that
performs exceptionally well on those of only one vendor.  The reason the
D&DM stands out in this regard is that although private sector companies
that choose inferior technology are the ones that are more likely to go 
into chapter 11, huge customers like our government make billion dollar
mistakes all of the time and borrow the money from our children.

Has anyone in this company given serious consideration to putting Rdb
on ANOTHER VENDOR'S platform yet ?

Regards,
rcs

1250.10I understand his comments are internal orientedIJSAPL::OLTHOFHenny Olthof@UTO, 838-2021Wed May 26 1993 09:4612
    Re -1;
    
    I read the comments from Wes about business models as being targetted
    not at the business models of our customers, but at Digitals business
    models. To repharse and simplify, I understand what he says is "if
    Digital is not serious about Rdb (and softare in general) and does not
    treat that as a more-seperate product line, these products will be
    under constant fire and are likely to loose the battle in 2 years time.
    
    Still, I could not agree more
    Henny
    
1250.11NOVA::SWONGERRdb Software Quality EngineeringWed May 26 1993 17:308
>Has anyone in this company given serious consideration to putting Rdb
>on ANOTHER VENDOR'S platform yet ?

	Yes, it has been given serious consideration. If you desire specific
	plans one way or the other then I think you'll have to talk to our
	product management folks.

	Roy
1250.12Check recent Sales Update articles on RdbGRANPA::KMCGINNISGone trackin'...Wed May 26 1993 18:596
    Recent Sales Update article has some program announcement info
    about at least one other vendor's platform.....
    
    
    Ken
    
1250.13Kinda like sending your kid off to college...MSDOA::SECRISTPaycheck by Rdb.Thu May 27 1993 13:1521
	; Recent Sales Update article has some program announcement info
	; about at least one other vendor's platform.....

  True: W-NT on Intel.  Are we going to come out with Rdb on W-NT/AXP first ?

  Steve or somebody said something in a note or mail message lately and I
  wondered when they said AXP if they meant Intel.

  The other thing I'm having problems with in this regard is I "trust" VMS
  and Rdb and have a growing respect for our OSF/1 which seems to be a very
  solid product (I have more experience with it on MIPS at this point, and
  I do not mean Ultrix, I mean DEC OSF/1 V1.0 for MIPS).  If we put Rdb
  up under Sun O/S, I've seen the problems their users have -- I neither
  trust Sun O/S nor would I want to see Rdb's "rep" tarnished by running on
  it.  It will be a tough thing going to other platforms with something we
  care about so much ;-)

  Regards,
  rcs