Conference ulysse::rdb_vms_competition

    I think the problem is not in what is sold but in the mindshare of the
    customers.
    
    I agree with the consultant that this is Christmas in July for Oracle.
    Over the last couple of years I have seen several cases where I believe
    the only reason the customer gave us a chance to compete was because of
    the perceived advantage of the free run-time.  With Rdb being
    "proprietary" in the minds of the customers they had no plans to even
    look at it.  They had the perception that Oracle was superior to Rdb,
    but were willing to listen to us because the sales rep had learned to
    go in and make the cost argument based on free RTO.
    
    When we presented Rdb, the customers were pleasantly surprised to find
    that it is a strong database package and has competitive advantages of
    its own.  If nothing else, it gave us a chance to counter the
    misperceptions spread by the competition.

    Well, are they comparing apples to apples? What is the cost of
    RDB-runtime vs. Oracle-runtime vs. Sybase-runtime? I don't think the
    latter 2 have runtime only options!
    
    Do we really have anything to worry about?
    
    The base OpenVMS systems are for OEMs and VARs. I will continue to sell
    traditional systems which include DECnet E/N and RDB-runtime.

Rdb Runtime being free was a siginificant contributor to the
penetration of Rdb over the last year or two in my exoperience.
I can give you the names of at least three customers where we won
partially because of the cost and marketing advantage this gave us.

I think it's a mistake to unbundle it.

PDB

    NOTHING in life is free. The customer ALWAYS PAID for it, but didn't
    realize it because it wasn't a seperate line item. You can STILL sell
    traditional systems which include RDB-runtime. We didn't raise the
    price on systems, we lowered the price by stripping out possibly unused
    software for the OEM and VAR markets. 

RE: .4		I still think it's the worst thing we ever did even though
		nothing in life is free.  It's the perception of free that
		counted.  We had gobs of customers buying Rdb Full DEV. because
		of the perceived (and I might add real) cost savings of Rdb RT
		being FREE.

		I've now spoken with two loyal Digital Rdb customers who are
		very upset.  Even after explaining to them the fact that they
		can still get Rdb RT with a full VMS base license, they were far
		from appeased.  Now, these guys who stuck their proverbial necks
		out in an all ORACLE shop are targets for increased pressure
		to move over to ORACLE.  They say we're falling right into 
		ORACLE's hands because the ORACLE Rep's had predicted that 
		Digital won't sell Rdb RT for free forever.  We're sure making
		those ORACLE reps look good now!

		It used to be that we could provide a very good cost 
		justification for using Rdb versus ORACLE, especially at
		sites with multiple production-only environments.  Now we've
		placed the old "kick me" sign on our own backs.

		On another note,  I've worked two years to get a customer with
		twenty-one production manufacturing plants running ORACLE to 
		consider Rdb instead of ORACLE.  Their main reason for 
		continuing their discussions with us was the free Rdb RT.  This
		offered them a great financial break from the ORACLE licensing
		and maintenance fees.  Now the whole deal is in dangerous 
		waters and nearing the treacherous rocks because of our small
		packaging change.

		No, nothing in life is free but, there are things that can
		sure make you feel like you got a deal.  Now, customers are
		saying they feel like they got the shaft,

		Beware of your local ORACLE shark ... the waters are full of
		meat and the sharks are known for their feeding frenzies.

    
    
    but rdb/VMS is still free. The majority of customers will keep buying
    the regular VMS/CLUSTER package, and get Rdb/VMS bundled in.
    
    CSOs and resellers are the only people supposed to be buying the
    stripped down licence.
    
    I think a really well written position paper could rescue this position
    and make everybody feel better. 
    
    Simon

    and legacy systems are "grandfathered"
    

    Re: .5

    >On another note,  I've worked two years to get a customer with
    >twenty-one production manufacturing plants running ORACLE to consider
    >Rdb instead of ORACLE.  Their main reason for continuing their
    >discussions with us was the free Rdb RT. This offered them a great
    >financial break from the ORACLE licensing and maintenance fees.  Now
    >the whole deal is in dangerous waters and nearing the treacherous rocks
    >because of our small packaging change.


    Hi Rick,

    When you price it out how much more will they be paying for the
    combination of VMS and Rdb then they would have been paying before the
    change (i.e., how much did the new packaging change your quote by)?


    - Barry

Or, look at it this way:
Price the Rdb system the old way, and an Oracle system: our advantage is $X.
Price the Rdb system the new way, and an Oracle system: our advantage is $Y.

How do $X and $Y compare?  (Are they equal?  Is $Y negative?)

I haven't tried it with actual numbers, but the pricing proposal was
that:

VMS Base + Rdb Run-Time + <VMS users> LESS THAN traditional-VMS (including Rdb)

Also, the systems packages that include NAS 300 (and thus Rdb Run-Time)
apply a discount to the HARDWARE resulting in an overall much lower price
and great incentive.

In other words net cost to the customer should be LOWER with the new
packaging, though the Rdb cost is now more exposed.

It wasn't our (DBS) idea, but we have to live with it.

Hal

I appreciate all of your comments about the pricing under the new structure.
Unfortunately, to a customer who is forced to use ORACLE because of a corporate
standard, it is difficult if not impossible to fend off the pro-ORACLE (or in
these troubled times, pro-save my own job by not making waves) people when they
say, "There goes Digital, changing their plans again!"  We have done that in
so many cases, as far as this customer is concerned, that they don't listen 
after that.  

Back to reality: 

One thing I hadn't mentioned, is that the customer was hoping to take advantage
of the less-than-base VMS for their 22 plants to save money on licensing.  
Couple this with the fact that they aren't buying new systems, they have no need
for a NAS 300 package, and now they won't get Rdb RTO, I'm in a tight spot.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still pushing to sell Rdb into this account but, the
re-packaging just about wipes it out.  Keep your ideas rolling in, I'm using 
or have already tried them.

By the way, ORACLE has begun their FUD campaign within the account to discredit
our intentions with Rdb RTO,

Wish me luck.

    if they buy "advantage server" configurations then you can show the
    cost of the nas300 software = 0. The packaged disk and tape cover all
    the software costs if added up as a line item.
    
    
    Barry

You also mention they aren't buying new systems.  Do you mean they
already have the 22 VMS systems?  If so, then they must have the 001 VMS
license that includes Rdb RTO!

Hal

Sounds like a real easy no brainer doesn't.

Geez, mister customer you already have the license for free and will continue
to get it for free.  Isn't it an easy decision.  Well I thought that it would be
but, they are really upset with lot's of things about Digital that tend to
cloud their vision.  At certain levels, they also tend to believe ORACLE that 
this is the first step in Digital forcing the customer to pay for Rdb RTO 
eventually.  

We're trying to stop the FUD and tell the straight story.

By the way, the result of this FUD is that people who were or might be willing
to champion the introduction of Rdb into the ORACLE shop, are reluctant to 
go any further until we (the Account team) work to convince all the players at
the account that Rdb RTO is not a cost issue for them.