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Conference ulysse::rdb_vms_competition

Title:DEC Rdb against the World
Moderator:HERON::GODFRIND
Created:Fri Jun 12 1987
Last Modified:Thu Feb 23 1995
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1348
Total number of notes:5438

1035.0. "NATURAL/ADABAS Questions" by JENEVR::HAHN (CIS DCC - RALLY/CDD Support) Thu Dec 05 1991 22:35

Hello,

As a little background, I'm in the process of responding to a customer
RFP regarding the development of a state government application.  We
are currently looking at two alternatives: 1) transfer an existing
application (NATURAL/ADABAS on the IBM) from another state, port it to the
VAX, and make any necessary modifications; or 2) develop the application
from scratch using DECforms/ACMS/COBOL/Rdb.

I have a couple of questions regarding Software AG's NATURAL (their 4GL) 
and ADABAS (their database):

1) From what I understand, it is possible to port a NATURAL/ADABAS application 
   from a IBM mainframe to a VAX platform. Software AG's marketing literature 
   implies that this can be done with "minimal adjustments".  Any ideas about
   what these "adjustments" are?

2) Once on the VAX, is it possible to "un-plug" the ADABAS database and
   "plug-in" a Rdb database?  If not, how difficult is a conversion from
   ADABAS to Rdb, and what affect would it have on the NATURAL application
   itself? 

   The indication I get from reading some of the notes in this
   file is that if the ADABAS database has been implemented in a 
   "relational mode" with no/few inverted list features, this conversion
   process is relatively straightforward.

3) How robust is a NATURAL/Rdb application?  Can it function within a TP
   environment (in this case, the customer has 700 interactive users, mix 
   of read/write transactions, response time requirements of 1 to 5 seconds).

   SAG states that NATURAL/Rdb can handle a high volume of users and
   transactions, unlike some 4GLs (such as RALLY, which is why we have ACMS).
   Handling the volume is one thing. but can it provide the required response 
   times?  If I have 700 Rdb database attaches, it's questionable whether
   any amount of hardware can be thrown at this and still meet the customer's 
   needs.

Again, thanks for any input!

Regards,
 Dave

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1035.1Be carteful with VAXclustersSUOSWS::KAISERError from �@貿������Fri Dec 06 1991 12:469
Adabas has a nice feature - for Rdb. There is one server process in a cluster
(yes, cluster - not machine), which does all IO's for all users in the cluster.
I don't know wether it's one process for each database or one for all databases.
All requests are shipped over the net to this server and all results are 
shipped back to the user's machine. This is what Software AG calls cluster 
support. Here in Germany we sold at least one VAX 9000 because of that feature.
I think your sales people will like it.

-Hans
1035.2there are several options!SIERAS::NAKAPPANFri Dec 06 1991 22:4727
    I don't have a ready answer; but I do have some questions.  Did we,
    Digital help write the RFP or a friend of Digital help with the RFP ?
    What is the evaluation criteria and weightages for Technology,
    Performance, Cost and any other ?  The solution will depend on
    these criteria, as the objective is to *win* the business, not 
    necessarily provide the best technical solution, when you deal
    with government.  
    
    If initial acquisition costs are a major factor, I would consider 
    moving the application to VAX/VMS on Natural/Adabas, as this has 
    been done in the past successfully, and Software AG will assist 
    with such migrations from IBM to VAX.  Also, this does not necessarily 
    rule out Rdb in the future, as new applications can be developed using 
    Rdb databases and Natural, as Natural will interoperate well with 
    Adabas, Rdb and RMS environments.  Natural is generally more efficient 
    than other traditional 4GL, because it is compiled like COBOL. Also,
    Using Natural and/or Adabas database does not rule out the use of ACMS. 
    
    If technical elegance/performance are a major factor, I would go for 
    a re-write with DECforms/ACMS/Rdb, given the number of users and the 
    response time criteria.
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    regards
    Murli
                                         
1035.3Digital is the PrimeJENEVR::HAHNCIS DCC - RALLY/CDD SupportTue Dec 10 1991 01:1829
                     <<< Note 1035.2 by SIERAS::NAKAPPAN >>>
                        -< there are several options! >-

    I don't have a ready answer; but I do have some questions.  Did we,
    Digital help write the RFP or a friend of Digital help with the RFP ?
    What is the evaluation criteria and weightages for Technology,
    Performance, Cost and any other ?  The solution will depend on
    these criteria, as the objective is to *win* the business, not 
    necessarily provide the best technical solution, when you deal
    with government.  


    Murli,
  
    In this situation, Digital is the prime, with a sub who has knowledge
    and experience in the particular application.  This is basicly a
    software and services procurement - Digital can only cost out the
    development effort, so the account team has little incentive to
    sell any boxes (kinda refreshing for a change!).  Given this, our
    technical solution will drive the cost to a great extent.  An easy
    port means low cost and a low bid.  A hard port or developing from
    the ground up means higher costs.  The account team feels that
    technical elegance/performance are more important than price in this
    bid.  But when dealing with the government, you've got to figure
    price is still a major consideration!

    Thanks for your input!

    Dave
1035.4Porting hintsVNABRW::HOEFINGER_RFri Dec 20 1991 14:5918
    1) Porting of the NATURAL/ADABAS application will be relatively easy,
    if the IBM Version is NATURAL V2 and "structured mode" and if you stay
    on ADABAS.
    2) Plug in of Rdb will be very difficult, because most applications
    uses so called "Multiple Value fields" and "Periodic groups" which is
    not possible with Rdb -> so you have to redesign the Database in this
    case.
    3) When using NATURAL/ADABAS 700 Users should be possible, because
    of ADABAS's single server architecture. ADABAS is very efficient in
    using CPU and I/O. 
    NATURAL needs a lot of CPU-Power on a VAX, but you can use a
    Multiprocessorsystem for this case. 
    When using Rdb it will not work for 700 Users without ACMS. NATURAL
    cannot be used with ACMS -> So, the application has to be rewritten in
    this case using Decforms,ACMS,Rdb;
    
    
    Regards Raimund