Conference ulysse::rdb_vms_competition

    A couple of things could have happened. Oracle often offers large
    discounts. They also could have bid a "minimalist" system. That is,
    just the RDBMS. Then they will come back and tell the customer about
    SQL*Plus, SQL*Forms, DECnet Driver, SQL*Net, precompilers, SQL*Connect
    to RMS, TPO, and all the other :options" that will have to be purchased.
    
    Yes, Rally is drastically higher than its competitors. It is on the
    order of 20%-45% higher than the competing 4GLs. In the case of Oracle,
    Rally is on the order of twice as expensive as SQL*Forms.
    
    If Rdb/Rally is higher than Oracle, it is probably a combination of the
    horrendous Rally pricing and a substantial discount or underconfigured
    system from Oracle.
    
    ---- Michael Booth

    When competing with ORACLE, be sure that you are comparing apples
    to apples. I have found they do what Michael says. Even
    though the customer has asked for certain features and functionality,
    they bid bare bones that will not meet the requirements. The customer
    usually does not realize this, unless it is pointed out. Then watch
    the ORACLE price climb. If ORACLE gets away with this strategy,
    they are then able to sell away at "list" price once the customer
    is locked in to their technology.
    
    I agree Rally is expensive. Even though Rally is more complete
    than some of the other 4GLs, it's  pricing appears to be too high
    compared to the competition.

    For the record, here is the current US Oracle price for 6310,
    3800(VAXserver):
    
    Product            6310         3800
    --------------------------------------
    Oracle RDBMS      $84,000      $10,500       
    TPO               $33,600      $ 4,200 (Necessary to equal Rdb performance)
    SQL*Forms         $25,200      $ 3,150 (4GL)
    SQL*Plus          $21,000      $ 2,625 (Oracle SQL)
    SQL*Net           $16,800      $ 2,100 (Necessary for DB-to-DB comm.)
    DECnet Driver     $12,600      $ 1,575 (Necessary for DECnet access)
    Precompiler       $12,600      $ 1,575 (Necessary for embedded SQL in 3GL)
                      --------------------
    Totals           $205,800      $25,725
    
    Grand Total             $231,525
    
    Maintenance will be 15% of the 6310 initial MLP or $30,870/year + 7.5%
    of the 3800 initial MLP or $2,573/year based on the INITIAL MLP. 
    Note -- The Oracle 3800 price gets the "additional license discount,"
    but maintenance is based on "initial license MLP." In other words,
    additional licenses are discounted about 25% from MLP. But maintenance
    charges for those licenses are based on a percentage of the INITIAL
    LICENSE MLP, NOT the discounted price.
    
    Assuming the 15%/year escalation in pricing, the maintenance will also
    escalate 15%/year. We then get the following 5-year COO.
    
    Year         Cost (6310)     Cost (3800)    Total
    ----------------------------------------------------
    1            $205,800        $25,725        $231,525 Oracle SW initial cost
    2            $ 35,501        $ 2,958        $ 38,459 Oracle Maintenance
    3            $ 40,826        $ 3,402        $ 44,288 Oracle Maintenance
    4            $ 46,949        $ 3,912        $ 50,861 Oracle Maintenance
    5            $ 53,992        $ 4,499        $ 58,491 Oracle Maintenance
    ----------------------------------------------------
    Total        $383,068        $40,496        $423,564
    
    That's about $850,000 Singapore Dollars just for the software!! And
    these are US prices. I know there is a "lift" in prices for Asia!
    
    Force a five year COO, and force Oracle to specify what products are
    being proposed. That should help.
    
    ---- Michael Booth
    
    PS 
    With a maintenance revenue stream like this, you can see why Oracle can
    discount the initial purchase without really "hurting."
    

   Thank you for all those valuable inputs.

   I learnt from my colleague who is an ex-Oracle salesman, said that Oracle
   can easily give up to 50% discount on prices esp when the customer account
   is a strategic one. 

   In this tender we are quoting on a VAX3800 as against Oracle quoting on a
   VAX 6310 which the customer commented that it is an offer that they find it
   hard to refuse.

   We are in the process of getting back to the customer and warning them
   about those Oracle modules that are ought to be included and also to
   consider a 5-YEAR COO.

    I believe that Rally though is twice as expensive than SQL*Forms but
    do actually has much more functionalities. Perhaps, we could price Rally
    with a cheap or competitive basic defintion system and then charge
    for additional functionalities.
    
This tender though of insignificant amount but is of very strategic importance
because the customer is in an unique position that control the national
LAW network and hence its decision can influence the whole law community. 

Best Regards, Jeffrey Choy


   

	Have you considered using a small VAX for development to lower
	the cost of the development? Then deploy Rally Run-time licenses
	to the target machine. Remeber, Oracle doesn't offer Run-time
	licenses for their product. We do. Ask the customer to ask
	Oracle why they don't offer run-time versions of their products?

	

    Oh yes, we take advantage of the Vaxserver 3500 and have it upgrade to
    Vax 3800 for acting as a development machine. The developed application
    is then run on the Vax 6310 using runtime licenses of Rally and Rdb.
    
    Thanks, Jeffrey

	I didn't make myself clear. Do you really need a 3800 for 
	development? Can you get away with a smaller machine? The
	price for for Rally and RDB development ona 3800 is real
	expensive. If you have 4 users, a cheaper choice might be
	a MV3100 4-user system. Take a look at the price difference
	on that combination instead of the 3800 system for development...

    Oracle does have a run-time license .... it's called a big discount.
    I just talked to a customer who was offered a runtime license.
    
    -- gerry

    Additional recent Oracle SQLnet pricing infor
    
    Oracle SQLnet pricing goes up with the CPU speed.  14 MIP 6420 is
    almost twice the price of 7 MIP 6410 and 6320.  Upgrade of the CPU
    is a way of life.  This can be added to presuade the customer.
    
    good luck
    
       -Jen