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Conference ulysse::rdb_vms_competition

Title:DEC Rdb against the World
Moderator:HERON::GODFRIND
Created:Fri Jun 12 1987
Last Modified:Thu Feb 23 1995
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1348
Total number of notes:5438

670.0. "Ingres queries" by WARNUT::BRYAN () Fri Jun 15 1990 18:35

    I've just been chatting to the local Ingres guy and the question of
    database metadata mods came up. Now I understood that Ingres would not
    allow you to add a table , add a column, add an index etc. without 
    closing the database and performing an unload/reload.  
     He assures me that this is not the case and they even state this in 
    one of their glossies - 
     
      quote -
    
        " Dynamic modification of databases,tables and field
          without processing interruption.
    
      unquote.
    
    As this is a real weakness that you could get alot of mileage from can 
    anybody clarify this point.
    
    One more thing - Does Ingres provide a snapshotting facility ? If not, 
    and it does not seem to, do reads take place in a RW transaction thus
    generating concurrency probs ?
      
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670.1you got it!GNPIKE::GUAYFri Jun 15 1990 21:4612

With the current release, you have to do an unload/reload as you say.


No, Ingres does not have a snapshot file.  They have three types of locks...

Shared, exclusive, and no-locks.  Unless you use no-locks, (where you have
to deal with the locking yourself in the application), the readers and the
writers will interfere with each other, which can lead to concurrency 
problems.  Since RDB has a snapshot file, shared read transactions won't 
interfere with the writers. (assuming that you haven't disabled snaps!).
670.2but ......WARNUT::BRYANMon Jun 18 1990 11:2014
    
    I've just read Michael Booths ' Ingres - Competitive Fact Sheet ' and
    there is no mention of the lack of snapshotting/multiversioning
    capability within the Ingres database ...... I've got an inconsistent
    read here !
    
    Metadata mods - as I have not got access to an Ingres system I am
    unable to test this out. If they cannot do it without an unload/reload
    then there sales sheet ( page 23 of the Ingres overview document,
    section entitled 'Elect a new administration,  3rd bullet) is 
    seriously misleading and what there salesman told me is seriously 
    misleading.             
    
    So what gives ? Are they telling porkies ? 
670.3But...NOVA::BOOTHWhat am I?...An Oracle?Mon Jun 18 1990 15:319
    Lack of multiversioning is not in the fact sheet because it was too
    technical to explain, and space was at a premium as that document had
    to be kept to three pages. As far as I know, the lack of snapshotting
    is real, as is the NOLOCK problem. That is, using the NOLOCK type of
    lock for reads allows updates to occur to the data with no protection
    for the reader. In other words, terribly inconsistent data. And this
    has been verified by the person we recently hired from Ingres.
    
    ---- Michael Booth
670.4Further....BANZAI::LOURDESTue Jun 19 1990 00:1421
    Further....
    
    - Until Ingres comes out with their ALTER TABLE feature (non-ANSI
    standard at this point), they *DO NEED* to unload/reload their tables
    when they want to modify it (e.g. change or add a data field).  I know
    that they are planning to add this in the future; until then it is a
    knock-off.
    
    - Tables need to be locked (taken off-line) to create indexes.
    
    - WHen they say "Dynamic modification of databases etc. without
    processing interruption" could mean dynamic modification of the data
    (which is true); this is not what we are talking about above.
    
    - Ingres may sometimes refer to their Checkpoint feature as "taking
    snapshots of the database".  All they mean here is that they are taking
    a static copy of the database.  It *IS NOT* the same type of
    functionality that Rdb supports.  Therefore, Ingres does not provide
    Snapshot capabilties as we define it with Rdb.
    
    --Lourdes Roberts
670.5GNPIKE::GUAYThu Jun 21 1990 21:433
And I'll bet their local reps will even tell you that they support 7X24 
operation with a straight face....