Conference ulysse::rdb_vms_competition

like K.O.

Bitching here or in MARKETING will have no affect other than to allow venting of
your spleen.  I really think people should send memos directly to K.O. on this.
Or maybe Jack Smith.

    
    re .1
    I don't consider my original note as bitching or whining.  There
    is no way I can send a note to anyone in corporate and not have
    the wrath of God descend upon me.  I want to make people aware of
    it because it affects a lot of revenue.  By creating interest, maybe
    the individuals who made this gesture will consider the ramifications.
    
    One note from a lowly sales rep will not accomplish much.
    
    Guy

    
    BTW, FABS has signed a joint marketing agreement for Oracle Financials
    and Oracle Government Financials to be sold on RISC/Ultrix and VMS.
    
    Effective May 23, 1990.
    
    Guy

The agreement details follows:

 Digital, Oracle - Announce application agreement
	{Livewire, 24-Apr-90 [sic - TT]}
   Oracle Corporation and Digital have announced a sweeping marketing 
 agreement to jointly promote, market and sell Oracle Financials and Oracle 
 Government Financials families of application software products on Digital's 
 VAX/VMS and RISC/ULTRIX product families.
   In support of this agreement, Digital's Finance and Administrative Business 
 Systems Group and Oracle's Applications Marketing Group are in the process of
 implementing the following sales and marketing programs:
  o   Digital has begun an intensive campaign to educate its worldwide sales 
      force on the unique appeal of the Oracle Financials and Oracle 
      Government Financials products.
  o   Oracle has begun to train its worldwide application sales force and 
      financial support specialists on Digital's products and services.
  o   Digital has begun to train its pre-sales accounting specialists on the 
      Oracle Financials and Oracle Government Financials products.
  o   At DECWORLD '90, the companies will jointly demonstrate the Oracle 
      Financials products running on VAX/VMS and RISC/ULTRIX systems in 
      distributed and client server configurations.
  o   Digital has agreed to demonstrate Oracle Financials and Oracle 
      Government Financials products at key customer demonstration centers 
      around the world.
  o   Oracle has agreed to demonstrate Oracle Financials and Oracle Government 
      Financials on Digital-provided platforms at key sales offices around the 
      world.
  o   Both companies have agreed to provide each other technical assistance 
      and early access to information to ensure that subsequent versions of 
      Oracle Financials and Oracle Government Financials are promptly 
      available on future DEC VAX and RISC platforms.  
  o   Digital and Oracle have assigned full-time relationship managers to 
      facilitate inter-company communications and teamwork.

   Oracle Corporation, headquartered in Belmont, Calif., is the world's largest 
 supplier of DBMS software and the second largest software and services company
 in the world. Oracle develops and markets an integrated line of software
 products for database management, applications development, decision support
 and office automation, as well as a complete suite of financial applications
 packages.  
 ---
 Oracle is a registered trademark of Oracle Corporation. 

	Just another example of Corporate "doing the wrong thing". I
	have seen some stupid alliances in my time, but this takes the
	cake. How can I sell Rdb now? What does this do to our credibility?
	I have been working on customers trying to get them to convert
	to Rdb because of poor all-around Oracle performance and a group
	within Digital blind-sides me!!! I feel like Agent Cooper in
	Twin Peaks seeing someone shoot me in the chest.

	I'll be waiting for the Sales Update article to see who announces
	this program so I can call up and vigourously discuss this error
	in judgement on their part. I expect this note and its replies
	to get a big workout in the days ahead...

    � How can I sell Rdb now? 
    
    It shouldn't affect our ability to sell Rdb one bit...
    
    Unless, that is, the competition happens to be ORACLE!
    
    � What does this do to our credibility?
    
    I pride myself on my honesty, preparedness, and knowledge of both 
    our products and our competition.  No problem for *my* credibility...
    
    Unless, of course, some astute customer ("We don't have many of those,
    do we?" he asked sardonically.) asks us why we're saying Rdb is better
    than Oracle's database, since we just entered into this wonderful
    agreement with them.
    
    
    � I feel like Agent Cooper in Twin Peaks seeing someone shoot me 
    � in the chest.
    
    I expect to an Oracle choo-choo train come crashing, like John Madden
    in those beer commercials, through our shiny new Rdb ad in the trades.

Here is the original press release


Craig Mitchell				       Gail Snider
Digital Equipment Corporation		       Oracle Corporation
(603) 884-0753				       (415) 637-7879

					       Laura Olson
					       Oracle Corporation
					       (415) 578-6828



        DIGITAL AND ORACLE ANNOUNCE APPLICATION AGREEMENT

         Oracle Applications and Digital Platforms Offer
          Alternative to Traditional Accounting Systems

MAYNARD, MA -- May 23, 1990 -- Oracle Corporation and Digital 
Equipment Corporation today announced a sweeping marketing 
agreement to jointly promote, market and sell Oracle Financials 
and Oracle Government Financials families of application software 
products on Digital's VAX/VMS and RISC/ULTRIX product families.
    "This formal relationship with Digital is an important 
milestone for our accounting application products and for Oracle 
Corporation," said Jeffrey L. Walker, Oracle's Senior Vice 
President and Chief Financial Officer.  "Oracle Financials and 
Oracle's software quality program, combined with Digital's 
endorsement of our application products and the support of their 
sales and marketing organization, should further accelerate our 
customers' implementation of distributed accounting systems."  
    "Now, our customers around the world have access to robust, 
world-class accounting applications on the full line of Digital 
VAX and RISC systems," said Michael Carabetta, Digital's 
Finance and Administrative Business Systems Group Manager.  "With 
our new VAX 9000 series, our largest customers can meet their 
mainframe processing and accounting needs, while using different 
sized VAX and RISC systems to distribute their accounting 
functions to subsidiaries and user departments," said Grant 
Saviers, Digital's Vice President of Storage and Information 
Management.
    In support of this agreement, Digital Finance and 
Administrative Business Systems Group and Oracle's Applications 
Marketing Group are in the process of implementing the following 
sales and marketing programs:



o   Digital has begun an intensive campaign to educate its 
    worldwide sales force on the unique appeal of the Oracle 
    Financials and Oracle Government Financials products.

o   Oracle has begun to train its worldwide application 
    sales force and financial support specialists on Digital's 
    products and services.

o   Digital has begun to train its pre-sales accounting 
    specialists on the Oracle Financials and Oracle Government 
    Financials products.
    
o   At DECworld, Digital's premier customer event in July, the 
    companies will jointly demonstrate the Oracle Financials 
    products running on VAX/VMS and RISC/ULTRIX systems in 
    distributed and client server configurations.

o   Digital has agreed to demonstrate Oracle Financials and 
    Oracle Government Financials products at key customer 
    demonstration centers around the world.

o   Oracle has agreed to demonstrate Oracle Financials and Oracle 
    Government Financials on Digital-provided platforms at key 
    sales offices around the world.

o   Both companies have agreed to provide each other technical 
    assistance and early access to information to ensure that 
    subsequent versions of Oracle Financials and Oracle 
    Government Financials are promptly available on future DEC 
    VAX and RISC platforms.  

o   Digital and Oracle have assigned full-time relationship 
    managers to facilitate inter-company communications and 
    teamwork.

    Oracle Corporation, headquartered in Belmont, California, is 
the world's largest supplier of DBMS software and the second 
largest software and services company in the world.  Oracle 
develops and markets an integrated line of software products for 
database management, applications development, decision support 
and office automation, as well as a complete suite of financial 
applications packages.  Oracle is a publicly-held corporation 
whose shares are traded on NASDAQ/NMS with tickler symbol ORCL.
    Digital Equipment Corporation, headquartered in Maynard 
Massachusetts, is the leading worldwide supplier of networked 
computer systems and services.  Digital offers a full range of 
computing solutions and systems integration for the entire 
enterprise -- from the desktop to the data center.

                               ###

Note to Editors: VAX, VMS, and ULTRIX are trademarks of Digital 
                 Equipment Corporation.

		 Oracle is a registered trademark of Oracle 
                 Corporation. 

CORP/'90/874
                                  

    Re: the press release and the words used by Jeff "loose cannon" Walker,
    are we "endorsing" the Oracle applications ???   or is Oracle AGAIN
    putting words in our mouths !!!

    If I were someone like Mega, who have spent a considerable (I imagine)
    sum on basing their financial package on Rdb, DECforms, and All-in-1,
    I'd be pig sick at this preposterous agreement. What does it do
    for other financial package firms, like Ross Systems, who (I believe)
    are currently migrating to Rdb?
        
    I've spent the last year or two trying to convince the sales force
    in my district office of the dangers of letting Oracle into their
    accounts, using some real examples of how they've damaged us in
    the past.
        
    All that work has just gone down the drain.
        
    Ah well. Short term gain, long term pain, I suppose.
        
    PDB.   

    The agreement applies to the layered products (i.e. financials)
    rather than just the database (which is an incidental).
    
    With one of my customers, it's a case of Oracle Financials being
    selected as the application FOLLOWED BY Digital being selected to
    provide the hardware platform, plus some consulting.
    
    I also have a customer with a third party application where the
    database is simply link-list blocks.  They bought the application's
    functionality, even if they would prefer a better "engine" underneath.
    
    That's how I would position the Oracle Financials agreement as regards
    the grossly inferior DBMS they have underneath it.
    
    
    Now, if anyone has details on packages that can seriously compete
    with Oracle Financials I would love to receive details about them.
    That's the only way this current customer, and maybe the next, could
    change database.
    
    Cheers, Martin

	I was on a PID con call today and Cynthia Therrien was the
	moderator. She imparted some very interesting information
	concering the Oracle deal which may be of interest.

  o   Digital has begun an intensive campaign to educate its worldwide sales 
      force on the unique appeal of the Oracle Financials and Oracle 
      Government Financials products.

	Since FABS is part of Digital this is true. However, this 
	agreement was done by the FABS group and not by Digital as a
	corporation. Oracle is simply a CSH, a Complementary Software
	House which simply gets them a listing in the SOFTBASE. Any
	group within Digital can make any vendor a CSH. This is exactly
	what the FABS group did and does not reflect a decision by any
	other group other than FABS.

	Personally, I think our sales force is already educated about
	Oracle...

  o   Oracle has begun to train its worldwide application sales force and 
      financial support specialists on Digital's products and services.

	No comment.

  o   Digital has begun to train its pre-sales accounting specialists on the 
      Oracle Financials and Oracle Government Financials products.

	Key word here is "accounting". Only people involved in selling
	financial software will be trained.

  o   At DECWORLD '90, the companies will jointly demonstrate the Oracle 
      Financials products running on VAX/VMS and RISC/ULTRIX systems in 
      distributed and client server configurations.

	I guess CSHs are given this privilege.

  o   Digital has agreed to demonstrate Oracle Financials and Oracle 
      Government Financials products at key customer demonstration centers 
      around the world.

	Again FABS (Digital) has agreed to do this. I suspect this
	will be done at ACTs which need to sell financial software.

  o   Oracle has agreed to demonstrate Oracle Financials and Oracle Government 
      Financials on Digital-provided platforms at key sales offices around the 
      world.

	I guess FABS will be funding these platforms.

  o   Both companies have agreed to provide each other technical assistance 
      and early access to information to ensure that subsequent versions of 
      Oracle Financials and Oracle Government Financials are promptly 
      available on future DEC VAX and RISC platforms.  

	A CSH is not entitled to this information or help. This is clearly
	stretching things on Oracle's part. Maybe FABS will try to sign
	up Oracle as field test site. Hopefully they never will be...

  o   Digital and Oracle have assigned full-time relationship managers to 
      facilitate inter-company communications and teamwork.

	Again, FABS must be providing this help...

    
    Ted, 
    
    I was on the same PID concall, and unless your notes starting with
    "o" are from other observations in this note/conference, I didn't
    hear the same messages at all.  (However, the context may have been
    that you were providing "real" explanations for those points with an
    "o".)
    
    Be that as it may, this whole thing is image, and Oracle will stretch
    any point to their marketing advantage.  That's what kills me about
    the deal.  I've said it before and I'll say it again: We know that the
    deal doesn't amount to much (it simply helps the FABS group (or
    whomever) to leverage short-term hardware sales.)  A CSH doesn't get
    any real, tangible advantage from Digital beyond being in the price
    book.
    
    But Oracle will use this "endorsement" to whatever advantage they can,
    and you'd better believe that it will result in significant wins for
    Oracle.  They'll stamp CSH all over the advertisements... they'll imply
    that DEC and they have a wonderful working relationship... they'll, in
    short, do whatever they can.
    
    However down the road, we're all likely to be bitten by this.  Oracle
    will most surely gain a foothold in an account by selling the financial
    package and when things go sour, they'll begin recommending Box X over
    a VAX.  We've seen it before, and now we'll see it again in a number
    of places.
    
    So it's a fact that in order to become a CSH, you only need one sponsor
    within Digital.  Sad, but true, in this case.  Clearly we needed a real
    Corporate edict that says that we shouldn't "hop in bed" with such a
    competitor, and I think that whatever checkpoints *should* have been
    in place have failed us.  And now we will all have to clean up the mess
    and put ourselves back on the defensive JUST when we had gotten to a
    point where we had some clear competitive advantages that were known
    to all.
    
    Oh, the advantages are still there?  Tell that to the poor guy on the
    concall who had worked so hard to sell Rdb into his account, only to
    have the customer question his integrity because of the "new deal."
    Again, it's not capabilities, it's not whether we or they support SMP
    and clusters, or what the long term cost of ownership is...
    
    It's all image, impressions, and marketing hype.  That supercedes all
    consideration of what the deal is really all about.
    
    Bob

Bob,

	Indeed I was explaining the "o" items. I took the press 
	announcement from earlier in this topic and put the "real"
	explanations I heard in the conference call.

	Does that clear it up?

    
    Sure, Ted, That clears up the note just fine.  But either way, it's
    a problem.
    
    As in my previous note... Does it matter whether or not Digital
    actually provides technical assistance to Oracle?  No, for Oracle
    will say that we are.  Early release?  Cooperative marketing ventures?
    I think Oracle will use this to their extreme advantage and stretch
    the truth wherever possible.  They've done it before and they'll do
    it again.  From the top of Oracle to the bottom, they've made a killing
    by duping the "public."
    
    And do you really believe that our sales force is "educated" about 
    Oracle?  If so, I'd like to transfer to your unit come July 1st.
    
    Interesting news blurb that I saw last week, but unfortunatley I don't
    have it in front of me... roughly stated, "..even though Digital and
    Oracle have agreed to market the financial applications, they'll still
    be slugging it out in the database arena."
    
    I only hope that that message remains clear, or else we're going to
    have to do a lot of justification to each and every Rdb prospect
    that questions the move.
    
    Bob 

    
    A lot of the information you have put down is valuable.  Rather
    than running two notes, one here and the other on NODEMO::Marketing,
    note 1212, may I suggest continuing on Marketing?  I started that
    particular note and would like to see any good info to go in there.
    
    Thanks
    Guy
    Industry Sales