Conference ulysse::rdb_vms_competition

Last night I was talking with an engineer back east about exactly this
topic.  A friend of his, who I also knew, had left engineering and gone
to <the field> as a software specialist.  About 8 months ago the person
left DEC because the people in the local office were not interested in
selling DEC's database and tp products.  They had many execuses
including a disinterest in learning about our products and a desire to
not be held responsible for supporting them after the sale.

If you look at some statistical evidence you'll see there is a problem.
The penetration rate for Rdb/VMS varies greatly from district to
district.  In some districts (I won't name names in the notes file)
where you would expect us to sell LOTS of Rdb/VMS (or ACMS or xxxx) we
sell very little.  In other places where you would expect to see minimal
sales, we sell a lot.

A broader indicator would be to look at the first year of sales for
different geographies.  For example, both ACMS and RALLY sold very well
in Australia during their first year, but not in the U.S.  The general
experience of engineers in dealing with the field is that Australia
(1) Hires more bits and bytes technical software specialists and puts
more effort into training them to support sophisticated products than
does the U.S. and (2) Takes the approach of pushing DEC products to
solve the customer problem and only resorting to third parties when the
DEC product just can't handle the job.  The same two comments seem to be
true of most of Europe.

The impression of many engineers vis a vi the U.S. is that while there
are lots of good software specialists (and I include sales support in
here) out there, coverage is spotty.  Also, the U.S. has good
application coverage but poor bits and bytes knowledge compared to the
rest of the world.  Most importantly, the U.S. seems to have the
attitude expressed in the first paragraph.  There appears to be little
incentive amongst the U.S. Salesforce to avoid giving up business to
third parties when we want that business ourselves.  Europe and GIA seem
interested in selling systems, the US in selling hardware.

By the way, attitude is everything.  In the early days of ACMS there
were an incredible number of sales in Dallas.  Why Dallas?  Well, there
was one salesman down there who was hot on the product, saw the
potential, and went after TP business with it.  Elsewhere in the U.S.
sales were pretty slow, including the bastions of commercial processing
such as NY, LA, etc.

Hal

As you read this you should be able to detect that I am extremely frustrated
with the current sales/sales-support environment.  I believe that if you talk
to the sales-support people (like me) in the field, you'll get similar
messages.  I would encourage you to meet and talk with the pre-sales people.
You'll find hundreds of very bright and dedicated people.  If you only talk to
managers, you may not get an accurate picture and may be lead to believe that
everything is fine and dandy.

In my district, I am the only one who is trained to cover DECtp products. It's
been that way for the past 1.5 years. The other database consultant quit because
he wanted to be a consultant NOT the sales person's crutch. 

Sales and Account Plans
-----------------------
In our district, I don't have a clue to the account plans ... not one !! Here we
are, half way through the measurement year, and not one rep has come to me to
discuss their STRATEGY for their accounts with respect to the DECtp and VIA
products. In spite of that, our district was one of the top 4 in the country
last year and had maximum participation in DECathlon and SWS Excellence Awards.

The end result of not being informed is that the sales support people are unable
to prepare in a QUALITY way, get trained, or do research.  Because preparation
IS the key to success, the odds are not on our side when the sales rep comes to
me and asks for an Rdb demo "day after tomorrow".  Without a clue to what
the strategy for the account is, the politics of the account, etc., we are
always going to leave the customer with a bad impression when we go into
a meeting without a clear understanding of the customer's needs.

Also, we're still a hardware vendor.  My experience has been that if the sales
rep can get his number with hardware, nothing else matters.  In order to make
their sws and ed services number, they allowance a six month "resident" off the
hardware margin and give them $25k ed services.  I have had numerous experiences
where sales had told me the customer has decided on Oracle and on our hardware.
Hell, the rep didn't have a clue the customer was even looking at databases !!

Digital Strategy in General
---------------------------
As you know, our strategies are complex for they embody many products with
sensitive interfaces. For example, in order for a customer to really appreciate
our CASE strategy, you must present/discuss numerous products (CMS, MMS, PCA,
LSE, DTM, SCA, VAX document, DECdesign, a few compilers, Rdb, DECforms, CDD+)
and then describe the integration. This takes a lot of time, planning, and
preparation. (All the time you're praying you don't have to do a demo !!) To
present our DECtp strategy, it is even more tedious.  If you do a good job, you
have to include CASE then add in ACMS/DECintact and some pretty detailed sample
scenarios. 

Database Strategy
-----------------
The only way we can win against Oracle and the rest is to be early in the
cycle.  Early means we have to continuously present our strategy to the customer
and listen carefully for signs of a mis-match.  We can't wait till the Oracle
rep has a free copy of their product on a PC on the vp's desk to start talking
about Rdb.  We only have a few weapons we can use against Oracle and we have
to play those quick to have a chance.

Product Thoughts
----------------
- Rally.  I don't even talk about it anymore.  It may be the most functionally
rich 4GL but it doesn't get marks as good as SmartStar, Focus, Oracle, and a
host of others.  Rally is meant to replace a fairly complex 3GL application.
What people seem to be wanting is quick, medium level 4GL work ... something
a "smart" user could sit down and put together a quick application.  Rally
does not fit this emerging requirement.  We don't have anything that does.
and we have missed the end-user query need by a mile.  No.... it's not
DECdecision either.  There are still thousands of users with character cell
terminals.  (In fact, I'm just about sick of hearing that DECwindows is the
answer to all the problems.)

- Teamdata.  Needs some updating.  It's missing some features that should be
included in a product of this type.  I like it but its next release is long
over due.  My guess is that it is suffering starvation for lack of developers or
money or both.

- DECdecision.  We can't get workstations out here.  We've had VS3100's on order
for six months ... yet to show.  I don't have time to walk downstairs to see
if the one in our demo area is being used or not.  I recently sought help
of someone in our district to demo DECdecision but noone was trained.  We did
finally find someone in the St Louis ACT who was willing to play with it on
Friday prior to our proposed demo on Monday.  We scrubbed DECdecision from
the agenda.

- ACMS. I like ACMS but it is a bear to sell.  This strategic product needs lots
of exposure to the customer. You don't just walk into an account with an ACMS
quote an expect them to sign.  ACMS is proprietary and, as such, requires a
level of commitment by the customer.  OLTP is thrown around so much these days,
you really have to sit down with the customer, listen to his needs, describe how
ACMS (and DECtp products) solve their business problems.  First, we're not
getting the right audiences for this level of work.  Second, we're late in the
cycle many times.  Third, customers are a bit goosey about proprietary tools.

�� My job is database marketing for CIM Marketing and Product Development (CMPD).  
�� I have a concern regarding field support capabilities for information 
�� management products like Rdb, ACMS, Rally, Teamdata, DECdecision and other 
�� related products.  In recent meeting with with manufacturing Strategic Account
�� Managers (SAMs), their overwhelming concern was lack of support for Rdb (and 
�� related products).

What exactly did they mean by "lack of support" ?  How many of their account
plans called for database and DECtp penetration ??  This is my point.  If they
don't expose the sws folks of their strategy and the need for support SO WE CAN
PLAN, the resources will always be in short supply.

�� I also heard this concern voices at seminars for Rdb support people, Summer
�� School, and other interactions with ACT and Field personnel.  At a recent
�� meeting of Senior management CMPD voiced this concern, and was told that the
�� problem had been addressed and solved. 

This assumes they understood the problems in the beginning.  In my opinion,
some of the problems are:  (not meaning to ramble here but I'm having a bad day
!!!)

Sales Support
-------------
- not enough insight into the sales strategy 
- not enough preparation time
- head count more important than investment for the future (eg hiring more
	pre-sales people, getting them trained)
- good people overworked by not providing "bench" strength ... eg not enough
	time to do research and "play" with new products (such as DECdecision
	and DECwindows in general)

Sales
-----
- no account plans for software or consulting, take the hardware and run
- metrics don't encourage long term software consulting, pre or post sale.
- too much allowancing off the hardware to make other metrics (sws, ed services
	field service, etc)
- don't work until they get their budgets (several months into measurement
	year) ... then they expect us (pre-sales) to help them make 12 months of
        budget in 7 months !!! 
- there is no incentive for them to sell Rdb.  With the free runtime license
	and most customers buying development licenses for $10k on a mv3100,
        where would you spend your time ?? 

Management
----------
- focus too narrow.  SWS delivery people don't send their people to get
trained on Rdb until we sell Rdb consulting.  The mentality of sending a
person to Rdb Programming 101 and expecting this person to delivery Rdb
physical database design consulting is ridiculous.  We're not investing
for the future because it doesn't fit the "profit margin" model of the SWS
unit. 

- we've had slots open for many months now but can't fill them because we've
got to look at the all the people eligible for relocation.  Even if we
got another DECtp person identified TODAY, it's going to be several months
before they can get in a position to make a measureable difference in a
pre-sales situation.

- we get notification of training events (like the one going on now in Detroit)
with anywhere from 5 to 21 days notice.  It's like the people who schedule these
things think we're sitting on our hands !  There was a time a month ago where I
was telling sales reps that it would be 4-6 WEEKS before I could go with them on
a sales call.  How do you think this made them feel ??  me feel ?? Think they'll
come back to think of Rdb again ? 

- where are the Rdb V3.1 release notes ??  Here we are with an announced product
with no way to know for sure what's in it.  People have been asking about this
for over a week .... nothing.  We need every once of information as soon as
we can get it so we can get these new enhancements in front of the customer.
Every week that goes by gives our competition a chance to beat us.  I bet in
30 minutes you could Email the Rdb 3.1 release notes to every sales support
person in the US.  

�� If the problem has been solved, Please relate your experiences, as well
�� procedures for getting resources to meet both pre and post sales consulting.
�� CMPD needs to communicate this procedure to the manufacturing SAMs and other 
�� manufacturing field audiences.

In what used to be our area, if you need pre-sales assistance, the sales support
manager and/or consultant files a 911 request to area.  Area would then
obtain resources.  I have tried to use the mechanism to obtain help for sizing
Rdb database servers but it failed.  One one instance, the response was too
late.  One two other occassions, the "area" resource was doing post-sales
consulting and was not available for "several months".  There was one situation
I know of where the pre-sales consultant established a good relationship with
the customer.  When the customer decided to purchase Rdb AND there were no
sws delivery people trained to do physical design, it was decided to use the
pre-sales person.  How's that go ... robbing Peter to pay Paul ??

�� If you see lack of field support for both pre and post sales Rdb consulting
�� as a problem, or the resources are not sufficient to meet the demands of the 
�� sales force and Digital customers ?   then give us examples with specific 
�� details:  

�� o    Was a third party vendor brought in, because support resources 
��	      were easier to find ?

I've been guilty of this when Rally or 4GL is concernd.  How about the
workstation people ENCOURAGING us to encourage our customers to get a DECstation
or VAXstation 3100 with the free Oracle trial "so you can experience the
power of Digital's desktop environment".  All this does is expose the customer
to the power of Oracle so he can chose other hardware.

�� o    How come Rdb resources were not available ?

Too many technologies, not enough people, not enough time for training.  Think,
for a minute, about all the NEW technology that has been announced in the last
12 months along with all the all the existing products that have been
dramatically improved.  When you combine that with the fierce competition, it
makes the job much more difficult than 12 months ago.  Not only that, in the
database market, it is often more important to understand your competitions'
(Oracle, Sybase, et al) products than our own.  I would expect that to be
especially true in the workstation market or any of the current "hot spots". 

�� o    What was the lost opportunity ??  $$$$

Depends on how you want to look at it ... short term or long term.  It's the
$$$ mentality I hate for what we lose, account control, cannot be measured.

�� o    Is the customer still a loyal VAX customer ?

We do have one customer that bought Oracle and is now using PCs for development.
Before Oracle, they were pretty much a VAX only shop.  They may still be a
DIGITAL customer but are now switching to Ultrix/RISC or Ultrix/VAX.  As you are
probably aware, when we go beyond VMS, we have no ACMS, no Rdb, no Rally, no
CDD+. (BTW, I still believe that VMS is the best database and commercial
environment.)

�� o    Has the third party influenced them to buy other hardware ?
	      etc...
Sure. I have one customer where we lost the sale of a 6000-420 to Sequent
because the customer had Oracle financials because they had Oracle database.
We did, however, win the sale of several other 6000-4xx systems BUT ONLY after
discounting 30-35% in order to be competitive with Sequent who was cheaper AND
was low-balling.  Here's at least one explanation of our margin woes.  The sad
part of this particular event was that Oracle got a po for over $600k.  Money
the customer could (and should) have spent with us, over time.  So, when you
consider the the discount amount when combined with the Oracle license fees,
we left a significant amount of money on the table.
     
��  If Rdb support reasources is still a problem, the more specific examples 
��  can find, the  stronger our position will be to convince management that 
��  additional resources are required.  The manufacturing SAMs have promised 
��  us their war stories, but the more we have the better.

Maybe we need more loses to Tandem, Sequent, Arthur Anderson, Oracle, et al
to get the message across.  The ole' hardware pipeline is just about to dry
up.

	I think the problem is the way the sales people are goaled. They
	should be goaled on the sale of Rdb and if it is lost to a
	competitor (Oracle, etc), they should lose somewhere between 25-50% 
	of the sale certs. If they sell Rdb with services, they should get
	a 25-50% bonus on the sale. 

	They key here is that management of corporate data is key. If
	the corporation we sell to doesn't use our product, we don't have
	account control. Without account control, we can't guide the
	account and sell additional items over the years.

	Most of all, .-1 says it very well, although it is a bit long. 
	However, the length of the reply shows how poorly we are doing
	in the Rdb area.

    re: .3
    
    Differential goaling is exactly how IBM got their sales reps to sell
    DB2 and come from a minority position to a commanding one in the IBM
    database market.  Pity it is so hard to do that in Digital.
    
    -mark

    Another major problem that relates to the success of selling Digital's
    information management products is the way Software Services is
    organized in the field. In most of Canada, a software unit is aligned
    with a sales unit(s) that sells into a specific market. You are an
    expert on whatever product is being sold today plus banking. In this 
    environment it is very difficult to become an expert on Digital's 
    information management tools. Why not create a software unit that lives and
    dies for Digital's information management tools in each district.
    This unit can then support the regular software and sales units
    and provide the expertise that our customers demand.
    
    A few years ago the company thought they needed "industry experts"
    to help Digital's sales efforts. In reality we need product experts.
    A banking transaction or a manufacturing transaction is the same
    to the database expert. Our client's have the industry expertise,
    they are relying on Digital to supply the product expertise.
                                                                    
    Yes it is disheartening, but in looking back the products are very
    good (and getting better), there are more knowledgeable people - but 
    demand/sales is out-stripping the available resources and 
    sales/management attitudes are slowly changing (obviously too slow).
    
    
    for what it's worth.... 
    
    Ken McMullen

   RE: .1	A very fair summary of the situation today!!  SWS
    management definitely comes up short on the preparation side when
    discussing the training of PSS folks.  We have lobbied and gotten
    many Data Management training courses for the SWA so that PSS people
    could receive training locally.  Much to our chagrine, very few
    delivery people (read it as zero to one per class) from our area went 
    to the classes.  Even after approaching DSUM's to convince them
    of the up and coming need of delivery support for products like
    Rdb, CDD/Plus, DECforms, ... , they asked the usual questions like
    what sales opportunities will require one of my people for this?
    or, what work statement have you written that necessitates these
    skills?  Unfortunately, even our Delivery Sales Support Unit Managers
    seem to be goaled in a way that does not support the sales and support
    of our Data Management products.
    
    A tribute (?) to the fact that we are still very much a hardware
    company comes from the DUIT Systems and Servers session where one
    of our loyal Data Management support people had the opportunity
    to observe the attitude of some of the VAX Engineering Group (specifics
    of the actual group name, not available).  These holy men (and women)
    who design and build our latest and greatest VAXen actually stated
    that they personally like Oracle because IT SELLS BOXES!  They said
    that no matter what the Database Group says, Oracle is good business
    as far as they are concerned.
    
    Well, there you have it - Oracle sells boxes and preserves the jobs
    of a few people in a few development groups because we made a few
    more sales.  That may have been true in the past - and may temporarily
    hold to be true - but, look everywhere in this conference and see
    how that trend is changing.  Sequents are lower cost than VAX, Oracle
    does more of its development on a Sequent now, the Oracle Financials
    people will do a presentation to sell the CFO on the advantages
    of buying Oracle on a Sequent because of a higher TPS per  dollar.
    So as we lose market to some of the other mini vendors why not hold
    onto something that still sells VAXen.  OR DOES IT!!!
    
    But I ramble.  It is not my intent to reply as long .1 but, I have
    observed much of the same and have similar opinions.
    
    Now, what can we do about it?  I have participated in local area
    ways to address the problem and look for other ideas as many have
    fallen on deaf ears here.
    

    
    Re .2  Yo Gerry!  Go for IT!
    
    Now to some more specifics...here's my nickel...
    
>In recent meeting with with manufacturing Strategic Account
>Managers (SAMs), their overwhelming concern was lack of support for Rdb (and 
>related products). 
    
    True, there is an overwhelming lack of support for Rdb and related
    products in various field locations.  On the other hand, there is a more
    overwhelming lack of support on the part of the corporate offices and
    field management.  
    
    	1) There is virtually no money available for advertising so that 
    we can compete with the real-estate that Oracle
    owns on the inside front cover of Digital Review every month.  I'm fed
    up with seeing ads for VAX Rdb/VMS in DECsell and nothing in magazines
    that would be seen by customers.  Anyone call database systems lately
    and ask about their advertising budget?  It's depressing!  These
    folks have a golden opportunity to capitalize on a strong product set
    while the market is hot and are helpless to react.  It's a shame to see
    the money put into engineering a superior product and then it's
    eventual death because someone didn't recognize it's market potential.
    
    Ever looked at Oracle's development vs advertising budget??  Well let 
    me show you!  From their 4th quarter ended May 31...
    they spent:
    				    1989	   1988
    		
    	Sales and Marketing	$104,327,000	$42,918,000	(+243%)
    	Research and Development $20,020,000	 $8,144,000	(+245%)
    
    So, they have increased their R&D budget by 245% over last year.  While
    they added an additional $11.8 million to the Development busget, they
    increased their marketing budget to the tune of $61.4 million! 
    Clearly Oracle sees the power of advertising....are we missing
    something?
    
    	2) Rdb and the associated products
    are treated as stepchildren as opposed to hardware or 'architecture'
    announcements.  Example: The new release of Rdb V3.1 was mentioned as
    an aside during the Q&A session towards the END of the VAX 9000 
    announcement. 
    Did anyone see a list of what products were being announced at the same
    time on a slide?  Latest rumor has it that V3.1 will be available in
    April.  Let's strike while the iron is HOT! Let's capitalize on the
    fact that we have a new release of this super database engine,
    ADVERTISE IT, and bring in some more revenue.  
    
    	3) Like Gerry, I have a
    charter to help sales promote DECtp.  While we all believe this is a
    noble endeavour, we in the field also feel that the corporation should
    be trumpeting our database strategy as loudly as we do our
    'architected' TP strategy.  There's more to be gained from account
    penetration and control, as well as revenue if we would only learn how
    to MARKET VAX Rdb/VMS. 
    
    >I also heard this concern voiced at seminars for Rdb 
>support people, Summer School, and other interactions with ACT and Field 
>personnel.  
    
    Yeah, I've heard about the concerns voiced at summer school...I was
    there last summer.  I was also informed that my name was bandyed about
    in some other sessions and have received a few calls since... depending
    upon the local sales, sales support, and delivery managers, you will
    see varying levels of available support people for database
    applications.
    
    >At a recent meeting of Senior management CMPD voiced this concern, 
>and was told that the problem had been addressed and solved.

    Whoever answered this question must have just returned from MARS.  The
    problem has not been addressed.  In light of the current
    reorganizations that are going on, some of the folks who have
    previously been going after database sales are now looking at other
    jobs. Not so much out of frustration at being a loner, but more for 
    self-preservation.
    
>If you see lack of field support for both pre and post sales Rdb consulting
>as a problem, or the resources are not sufficient to meet the demands of the 
>sales force and Digital customers ?   
    
    Local offices need people who can address a customers needs on three
    basic fronts:
    
    1)  Ability to visit a customer, qualify them, present Digital's
    strategy and products, and arrange a demonstration.
    2)  Demo the appropriate product or prepare a prototype of the
    customers application.
    3)  Provide delivery consulting in the areas of Application Design,
    Database design, use of tools, performance tuning & maintenance.
    
    Once again, different offices pursue these different disciplines based
    upon the percieved *immediate* need.  As I was once told by a PSS Unit
    manager..."I don't train people unless there's booked business on the 
    table".
    
> o    Was a third party vendor brought in, because support resources 
      were easier to find ?
    
    I could recite numerous
    accounts that I haven't been brought into because it would just
    complicate the cycle in the eyes of the sales rep.  How can I possibly
    argue with a sales rep who is making 100% of his/her numbers,
    consistently, year after year, and partners with Oracle every time? 
    Who would I be fooling?  I'd be standing there on the dock, feeling
    that I had done the right thing in trying to convince him that he sell
    our own database manager and retain account control.  Meanwhile, as his
    boat was pulling away for the next DECathlon, I'd be yelling at the top 
    of my lungs that he was STILL wrong for bringing Oracle in!   Until
    the metrics are changed, this picture won't change...we'll still be
    pushing hardware, salesreps will still continue to be successful on an
    individual basis, and the profit picture will continue to shrink.
    
> o    How come Rdb resources were not available ?
    
    Because, unless the Regional SALES MANAGEMENT makes a strategic
    decision to sell our database products, and there is some form of
    measurement (tied to incentive) for sales reps, there will be a
    majority who can make their numbers without selling our layered
    products.  And if they don't percieve the need for pursuing the
    business, they won't ask for trained resources.  
    
    > o    What was the lost opportunity ??  $$$$
    
    The lost opportunity is in dollars that the customer would have
    available if they had purchased Rdb instead or oracle.  There is lost
    consulting dollars because we generally don't staff Oracle-trained
    personnel.  (Think it's hard finding someone who knows Rdb??)
    Lost opportunity?  mmm...$30 million in products and consulting sales,
    probably an additional $15 million in hardware sales that were lost to
    another vendor because they believed Oracle's pitch of the "vax being
    the problem....but Oracle will allow you to migrate!"  (This is just
    for my Area.)
    
> o    Is the customer still a loyal VAX customer ?
    
    Sure, but the issue of them being a loyal DIGITAL customer has now
    gotten extremely cloudy.  And if they aren't loyal to Digital, the next
    vicitm is the VAX...soon to be replaced by a sequent or HP.
    
> o    Has the third party influenced them to buy other hardware ?
>      etc...
    
    Every chance they get.  Because now, they can sell another license!!!
     
>     If Rdb support reasources is still a problem, the more specific examples 
>     can find, the  stronger our position will be to convince management that 
>     additional resources are required.  The manufacturing SAMs have promised 
>     us their war stories, but the more we have the better.

    Additional Resources is part of the problem.  We need also:
    
    - Timely information about new releases (What happened to training
    before announcement so we could handle customer questions?  The V3.1
    announcement was a real slap in our face.)
    - ADVERTISING, ADVERTISING, ADVERTISING....I know, all you old timers
    are saying 'dream on, Gil'....well, I've been here for ten years, and
    there'a always hope if you say it enough times!
    - Reasonable time frames from updated PID information.  Our poor
    database systems folks are so shackled with review cycles that by the
    time they finally get PID material to us, it's stale within a month.
    
    Whew.....this note really got me started too!  Anybody needs an Rdb
    Talk, give me a call....I LOVE to do 'em because we have a GREAT
    PRODUCT.
    
    Now let me see....where'd I leave that ammo belt...
    
    
    

> [...] At a recent meeting of Senior management CMPD voiced this concern, 
>and was told that the problem had been addressed and solved.

    I'd like to know how, exactly, this problem has been "solved." 
    I've been with Digital since January of this year, my prior experience
    was three years developing VAX DBMS applications.  I'd heard of
    Rdb, but I didn't know what the relational model was, I didn't realize
    that the IS world is leaning toward relational databases for more
    and more database requirements and surely didn't know that Oracle
    was the leading relational database on VAX/VMS.  
    
    Here I am 10 months later, a "district database specialist" covering
    five database opportunities where the customers seem to almost assume
    that Digital has the best relational products and tools and that
    we'll wheel in some relational experts very knowledgeable in the
    field and with our products to "wow" them and confirm their belief
    that we have the best answer.  Instead, they get a relative
    "greenhorn," me, who's had a single Rdb Programming class and 1.5
    days of a five-day (Sales comes first - Joseph Heller would love
    it!) Rally Support Course and I'm supposed to convince Mr. Customer
    he should spend his millions on us?
    
    (We have 3 or 4 other sales support database specialists in the
    districts with more experience, but still...)

    
>     o    Was a third party vendor brought in, because support resouces 
>      were easier to find ?
    
    On one opportunity I know of we were head-to-head with Oracle, but
    Oracle convinced the customer that he didn't want to be dependent
    on the same vendor for H/W, OS, and DB S/W ("Platform Independence,"
    gag me - if ya' choose a platform, you have to be able to depend on
    it!), so the customer said "bid UNIX," our sales rep said "fine, we have
    a DECsystem," and the customer is leaning toward Oracle on the
    DECsystem or Sequent.  Oracle will get the S/W consulting, continue
    to bad-mouth our products (software and - AND!! - hardware) and
    the sales rep will probably find herself wondering what went wrong.
    
> o    Is the customer still a loyal VAX customer ?

    I agree wholeheartedly with Gil, here.  When are we going to understand
    that h/w costs are going down and some independent DB S/W vendors
    are coming in to our accounts with a product which runs a VAX and
    also some other "cheaper" platform.  So that while they may remain a VAX
    customer for the existing VAX, it's not long before Sequent, HP,
    or some other platform is the next h/w purchase, and look whose
    left out the cold with great h/w.  We need more DIGITAL customers
    who are convinced we can provide "a total solution" (pardon the
    cliche' but providing it is "the right thing to do" for our customers,
    and we all believe the right, total solution is Rdb/VMS, CDD+, etc.
    on VAX/VMS, "backed by the abundant resources of Digital Equipment
    Corporation," and that it's the best solution for most (damn 
    near all!) situations.

> o    Has the third party influenced them to buy other hardware ?
>      etc...

    NO MORE TOOTSIE ROLLS!
    
    
>    If Rdb support reasources is still a problem, the more specific examples 
>    can find, the  stronger our position will be to convince management that 
>    additional resources are required.  The manufacturing SAMs have promised 
>    us their war stories, but the more we have the better.

>Over a year ago some one tried to start a similar conversation in this notes
>file with no success ?  Please give us your input so that we can more 
>effectively sell Rdb to manufacturing companies (specifically) and Digital
>customers in general.

    Come on, y'all let 'em hear from the rest of us!  If Rdb and its
    cousins are the
    Strategic database products that I keep telling current and potential 
    customers they are, then we need more corporate support for our efforts
    to help our sales force and our customers understand that we have
    the fine products they want and need.

    >> I belive that if you talk to the sales-support people (like-me) in the
    >> field you'll get similar messages.  I would encourage you to meet
    >> and talk with the pre-sales people.
    
    I have meet and talked with pre-sales people, thats why I was shocked
    when I heard that the problem was solved.  My analysis of the situation
    is that snior level managament thinks that the problem is solved.  CMPD
    is aware of the problem, I live with it daily.  CMPD waants to raise
    the visibility of this problem, but we need your help.  The more actual
    documented lost sales or input from the field that we can point to the
    stronger our position will be.  Rember this input will be going to
    senior management.  The input so far has been great, but give specific
    examples of lost dollars or accounts if possible.  talk about the
    reasources available, vs thoes required.  Goaling the sales force is
    also at the heart of this problem, but the sales force often says that
    they can't/don't sell our products due to lack of support.  I don't
    think that we can have one (software metrics) without the other
    (increased support).
    
    Verbal moaning and complaining is one thing, but well written
    documentation of the situation carries more weight and credibility.
    Please keep the responses coming.  Pointers to other notes which
    discuss similar topics would also be appreciated.
    
    Thanks,                                                   
    
    Rich

    Interesting.....
    
    I can give you examples of accounts that we have lost, but I don't have
    specific dollar amounts.  It's extremely hard to put a dollar amount on
    what account control is worth.  Also, if we don;t sell the database,
    then Oracle typically gets all the potential dollars there were that
    would have gone for PSS.  How much? I haven't the foggiest idea. 
    Usually we don't get to that point, because in losing the database, we
    have just about lost everything else that follows.
    
    A few examples?  Hmmmm......General Dynamics and the recent factory
    floor win in Dallas....went to Oracle for the database.  Boeing in
    Seattle...they are Oracle company wide....how about NASA?  Another
    Oracle stronghold.....the list goes on.  How much revenue do we lose?
    
    Hard to tell.  you're asking a few individuals who are already
    stretched thin how much potential business there is out there if we
    (the corporation) increase our efforts.  Is this the job of sales 
    support individuals? To track business potential for *A* product?  
    
    No, what we are saying is that a couple of us perceive a golden
    opportunity to help out the corporation's bottom line.  While we put our 
    blinders on and root around the ground for places to sell VAX 9000's, 
    the Oracle folks are screaming overhead, shooting down Dbase biplanes
    and napalming the countryside....  we need to look UP!
    

    Software sells hardware.  The heart of any commercial data processing 
    system is the database.  If the database is a Digital database, then 
    the applications that are created not only use Digital development 
    tools and perhaps Digital consulting, but these applications consume 
    Digital hardware.  
    
    The easiest sale is the one where a customer needs additional power for 
    existing applications that have grown or for new applications, and asks 
    the sales rep to examine the new requirements and prepare a proposal 
    for the additonal CPU power additional disk drives, and other 
    components; not to mention ground floor opportunities to sell projects 
    or consulting.  
    
    If the database is Oracle or some other (DB2?), we don't sell the 
    development tools or consulting (and hardware if DB2). And when more 
    power is needed, the customer goes to Oracle who often extolls the 
    virtues of price/performance of Sequent or Harris or HP.  After all it 
    is in their best interest to have multiple platforms in an account. 
    
    What is the cost of not selling Rdb?  Is it the price of the 
    development license?  Is it the lost hardware when Oracle convinces the 
    customer to go with another hardware vendor for additional power?  Is 
    it the opportunity cost of losing easy future upgrade sales that don't 
    require extensive technical support in battles against fierce 
    competition?  Its hard to quantify.  
    
    If we don't truly understand the importance of winning the database and 
    pour the resources to sell and support database sales, we may just wake 
    up and suddenly find all sales slumping and profit margins extremely 
    thin on those sales that are made.  And perhaps we look at the 
    organizational structure or whatever else as the problem.  This may be 
    somewhat overstated, but the importance of the database has been 
    overlooked for too long.
    
    I echo the sentiments of all previous responses.  I don't have time to 
    go into more detail, being one of the few in the field focussing on 
    database sales and support,  I am booked solid, and even taking time to 
    read notes is a luxury.
    
    We must do better.
    
    Steve Farlow @STO
    
    

    I am surprised that there is only 11 replys to this note. I know in
    Canada that most other districts have less database support than
    Toronto. Due to the amount of business, we still must pass some
    of the tools and consulting business onto other vendors and we still
    have to ignore potential opportunities because of the lack of resources.
    
    If you believe this is a serious problem why not extract note 479
    and mail it to the appropriate people in your district!
    
    Ken McMullen

    Ken!
    
    I'm surprised that you're suprised.  Don't you all get it?
    The reason that there are only eleven replies here is that there
    are only 11 of us out here!
    
    How's that for a statement of support resources.
    
    "Excuse me sir, we tried to survey the field resources for this effort,
    all three replied that they were overworked....we didn't hear from the
    rest, however...."
    

    
    Rdb/VMS resources are pretty thin on the ground, but it is extremelly
    dificult to make sales people understand that the database sale
    must begin a long time before the h/w sale.  In a lot of sites we
    only become active when there is a chance of a sale, i.e. tender
    stage.  By this time ORACLE have been all over the account and have
    sold the CEO on portability, the head accountant on their financials,
    the MIS department on technical features and end-users on ease of
    use.
    
    Then we come along and propose hardware, which the customer mostly
    sees as a commodity.  At this time the sales person realises that
    trying to sell against ORACLE (i.e. Rdb/VMS) is too hard and
    could jeopardise the h/w sale.  So, he lives with ORACLE and if
    he is lucky and ORACLE feel like alowing us the sale we get the
    hardware.
    
    There is no account control, just a single order, and by the time
    the customer sees the price of ORACLE on our h/w, he may well choose
    a cheaper platform, just to accomodate ORACLE.
    
    I was just involved with a tender to a government department, the
    salesman only got involved in the sale when it was brought to him
    by a third-party who are going to be the prime contractor.  ORACLE
    were already in there and we were allowed to put in a VAX 6310 into
    the bid.  I told the salesman that this was not good business as
    ORACLE's prices would make our bid uncompetitive, he ignored my
    advice and proceeded with the bid, my involvement stopped at that
    time.
    
    The tender closed this morning and he came to see me and said "You
    were right, ORACLE s/w pricing came close to the price of our h/w,
    they provided very little support in preparing the tender and did
    not provide any sizing info.  They did not care if we got the h/w,
    as they were assured of a sale, no matter which h/w platform was
    chosen."
    
    So, yet another one to ORACLE, maybe we will get some h/w dollars,
    but I doubt it.  If we had been in the account earlier, this could
    have been a great DECtp and SQL/Services solution, but we get nothing.
    
    Sigh,
    Michael
    

Well I thought I'd contribute my 2� worth.

Until recently I was exclusively doing post sales work. Now I am officially 
a pre-sales body. But suprise surprise, I continue to spend the majority of 
my time in post sales (i.e. consulting).

I am really the only Rdb specialist in Sydney at the moment, as well as 
doing some interstate work. So Rdb resources are fairly thin :-)

I just don't see much demand for pre-sales work. The salesmen don't seem to 
think that account planning goes beyond hardware (with one or two notable 
exceptions). Without being more involved in the opportunities, I can't 
really pinpoint the losses.

BTW: Can't we do something to counter those ORACLE adds?

Mark.

>>    Verbal moaning and complaining is one thing, but well written
>>    documentation of the situation carries more weight and credibility.

    What ever happened to plain old' "gut feel" and common sense.  One
    thing that is disturbing is the overwhelming need to put every action
    into dollars and cents or make these comparisons more binary than they
    actually are.  America is full of thousands of instances where people
    charged off with a product based on intuition only to see it succeed
    wildly.  If we are so caught up in this documentation stuff (which is
    good from time-to-time), how will be ever respond quickly enough with
    our marketing and sales strategies ? For example, I'll bet you the
    decision to put on the summer school for sales and the DU:IT for us was
    made without a lot of fancy book reports.  If senior management is so
    far removed from the Oracle threat and the OBVIOUS need to control the
    database (and thus mission critical applications) in order to maintain
    account control, we've got problems that go beyond this conference. 

    Here's an idea for you Rich.  Get yourself a hand full of senion level
    managers with tape recorders.  Have them show up at the DU:IT for
    OLTP/database on November 27 and talk to the people there.  You should
    be able to get some "numbers" but you'll have to suffer through the
    moaning. 

        

    Money ?
    
    According to an industry rpeort, 40% of Oracle revenues are VAX based.
    Their financial report is available. Just multiply.
    
    B

    I've been doing pre-sales for 2 years now. My area of specialty has
    been networking. Before coming to DEC, I was almost exclusively
    involved in OLTP (on a Stratus/SYS/88). Why did I forgoe developing
    my database expertise further at DEC? Because I was told Digital
    is the Networking company. We sell network, etc. etc. I did not
    even hear of RDB until about six months later. We were clearly not
    the database company.
    
    Now that my interest has rejuvinated in database, I've find that
    all of the reasons given in the past notes apply to us in Canada
    as well. In fact, Ken has done delineated them quite well in the
    last few notes.
    
    My conclusion is simply: Verbage, Marketing Tours (in fact, I have
    to go see Mike Booth in 15 mins), will never be as effective as
    putting some hard figures in our sales reps. goaling and metrics.
    
    The idea that someone put forward of doubling the certs for an RDB
    sales and giving negative credit for one that went to a competitor
    or some variation of this will be the only real motivation to win
    the database. ie. put your money where your mouth is.
    
    BHAGWANT SANDHU
    
    
    

    
    Only 11, 15, 18 of us?  Doubtful... perhaps many are so busy trying
    to wrestle opportunities from the likes of Oracle that they don't
    have time to read or reply to this conference.  Perhaps a lot of them
    are fed up with the seeming lack of committment to Rdb and have stopped 
    caring so much.  But whatever the reasons, I, too, have a hard time 
    believing that this is all we have... considering the hundreds of people
    that usually attend DECtp symposiums up north.
    
    Be that as it may, I find it equally incredible that "upper management"
    does not put forth a stronger committment to this strategic product.
    Isn't it clearly the direction and intent?  Rdb/VMS RTO is bundled
    with VMS now, and everybody knows it.  It is a clear indication that 
    Rdb is the "product of the future" in our own eyes, and serves as an
    invitation for companies to write product based on Rdb.  So why is it
    that I find a lot of my OEMs (VARs, VADs, whatever...) don't realize
    the implications of RTO before they come to me?  CDD/Plus is now on
    Rdb/VMS.  Many of the new products are going Rdb.  We're sinking a
    good deal of bucks into Rdb development.
    
    Overall, the key messages are not being heard in the right places.
    As I see it (along with many others here) Sales might be the weakest
    point.  NO committment whatsoever, as far as I can tell.

    What of resources?  Sales Support is now "owned" by Sales, to a large
    extent.  Unless Sales is willing to commit the $ and time to have a
    well-developed resource, the poor SWS rep is relegated to being torn
    in a hundred different directions as needs dictate.  The only direction
    that they surely *won't* go in is db/tp.  They'll deal with networking,
    PCs, Worksystems... anything, it seems, except Rdb.  (I know... I'm
    one of those resources.  I went to CASE DU:IT, Desktop DU:IT, countless
    symposiums on everything under the Sun, classes galore, and yet *I* have 
    to pretty much find and push for TP stuff.)
    
    If Digital wants to get the message across, they're going to have to
    invest dollars and time to effectively address the competition in an
    all-out concerted effort, starting with some of our internal organizations.
    Simply wishing it would happen, or letting the field organizations 
    determine for themselves how to make it happen, is clearly not enough.
    
    Oh, dollars, you ask?  You need documentation on how much "opportunity"
    was lost?  That's easy.  There are two ways:  The first is to read the
    financials on the competition.  There, buried in the Annual Report, is
    the answer to how much we might have gotten, if only...
    
    The second way is to measure Sales on database platform sales.  Kudo
    them if they get smart and sell Rdb (early on in the cycle...) and
    "penalize" them if they lose a sale to the key competitors.  Count the
    budgets of the winners and losers.  Put one in column A, one in Column
    B.  Piece o' cake.
    
    It scares me about having to document the dollars.  Funny about that.
    I've recently seen another set of products... one for VAX and one for
    conversion of systems to VAX... get completely nuked simply because
    they weren't selling too well.  They weren't selling too well because
    Sales did not know how to address this area.  It's left us with a real
    hole in our strategy, as far as I'm concerned.  (The products?  Let's
    just say that it addressed a little niche market... that of any RPG
    application system running on 36/34/38 and ASs.  Nahhh, not too much
    money to be found in that base, right? ���    )
                                           mmm
                                          "Grrrr"

    I submit: If the company is truly committed to Rdb as a way of life, 
    they'll have to do something about it and provide a clear, effective
    message along with the tools, resources, and capital.  If not, it's
    not going to be a great way to live.
    
    Bob
    
    PS: I'll be at DU:IT/TP.  Do ya'll need extra recording tapes?

    One of the reason that there are probably so few replies is that
    this type of question keeps being asked in one form or another time,
    after time. The MARKETING notes file is full of such discussions.
    Some of us just feel we are tilting at wind mills sometimes.  
                                                                  
    Its all very well for Corporate to identify the problem, but its the
    local districts which have to eat the cost of the solution. More
    trained specialists is always not the answer. The salereps and
    consultants need to understand the business of solutions which
    require our I.S. related products. Sometimes, this cannot be taught
    but only is gained by experience. If the salesrep doesn't understand
    what RDB and ACMS solve, a highly trained specialist can't help
    and believe me, salesreps don't understand our I.S. products regardless
    of what they were taught at summer school (but they're getting there).
    This is one of the reasons I have been suggesting that we work more
    closely with the large consulting/software houses which recommend
    software. They could be one of our biggest sources of business if
    they were sold on how our I.S. could make them succesfull.    
                                                                      
    The demand is created by Sales and their programs. I have not seen
    the DESKtop focus helping us, nor have I seen a similar program   
    in place for I.S. . While we have PARTNER programs for VMS, ULTRIX
    and CASE, why not one for TP/DB? Lets face it, we call ourselves
    a software company and still measure sales on hardware. How can
    be expect any significant gains until the metrics change (but there
    are a lot of wind mill chasers out here!)                                  
                                                                      
    The dedicated RDB Sales Reps which we now have in several Canadian
    offices are support outside of the software organization and should
    help on the pre-sales side. Mind you, I think they are having their
    own problems getting up to speed on both the technology, competition
    and our products.                                            
    
    On the delivery side, DEC is not view as a major player in delivering
    large applications which means we don't even get the RFP's for such
    systems. Our consulting house brothers do. In order to deliver
    effective support for I.S. products, we need a lot of soft skills
    such as Data Modelling and use of a methdology such as SLC. None
    of which are readilly available. At the same time, we need to bite
    the bullet in training people when its needed not ahead of time.
    I would like to see 'swat' teams which could come into a district
    and train a team when a piece of business has been closed.
                                                                
    Anyway, I'm rambling. The bottom line is that until sales changes
    its metrics, we will have the same situation and it will the  
    traditional grass roots specialists who will carry the banner.
                                                                  
                                                                  
    

    Re: last few
    
    We're out there, just busy banging our heads against the wall trying to
    figure out why the Company wants to get into bed with Oracle (witness
    the KO woods meeting).
    
    
    And, Gerry, keep tellin' it like it is, buddy...saves me from typing.
    

    >>    the KO woods meeting).
    
    Kevin,
    
    I saw a memo someone sent out about the woods meeting...
    
    I wonder if someone would care to post it here.

    -b

    
I think most replies so far have been US, Canadian or Antipodean.
Here's a view from Yorkshire.

I agree with a lot that has been said already :-

Sales force to be educated / shouted at more
More Aggressive Marketing
More Trained specialists - there is more of a need initailly for people who
can talk to the customer and put over the ideas of what a RDBMS should do (Rdb
in other words), and the need for the bit and byte person will come later (the
pre sales person will also learn on the job). Remember that Oracle and Co have
the same problem - but probably more so. They have a large turnover of staff
who can't stand the pace - sure they pay well, but they want their pound of
flesh at the end of the day.
Confidence - we can beat Oracle any day
Price - we cost much less
Danger - there is a great danger of letting Oracle in
Sales targetting - carrot and a stick approach please. 

I keep my fellow SWASers and Sales abreast of all the things that are going on,
trumpet Rdb successes, and Oracle problems. It is pointed out to people that an
Oracle sale today is lost revenue tomorrow, and I won't help Oracle get any
sale - they're on their own. Whenever an ITT comes in with Oracle and Ingres on
it, I reply for Rdb - I can't say how Oracle will perform (apart from not as
good as Rdb) - I know it will cost an order of magnitude more than Rdb. I know
Rdb is technically superior and more robust - so I tell em. IF the salesman has
not mentioned Rdb, I insist that it is put in. I'll help put Rdb in, but not
the others.                                        

Jon Blythe.

    

    Well, I used to do support in Australia but am currently 'helping out'
    in Hong Kong. 
    
    The biggest problem I see is that Rdb support people are allocated
    on a number per unit basis rather than a number per support request
    basis. Ie. a Unit will 1 person allocated to do Rdb support, 1 for
    Rally/4Gls, 1 for Pcs etc. rather than basing it on the number of
    support requests from Sales/Customers. Rdb is so popular now that
    several Rdb knowledgable people per unit would not go astray.
    
    I would go so far as to say that ALL VMS based specialists (ie
    specialists supporting a product on VMS) should get at least some basic
    training on Rdb.
    
    Having Rdb 'champions' in your area is also very handy. These people 
    would be a backup resource to other Rdb support people in the area.
    They are the ones who have had the support course training and have
    worked with the product for several years.
    
    John.

    Take a look at OASS::JOBS around #3903-3907.  Do you think this will
    help?  How effective could it be and what would increase the
    effectiveness?  (Please don't send me mail about it; it's not my
    organization and I can't really do anything with the suggestions.)
    
    The lack of support is not only in sales and presales, but in delivery
    as well.  I've heard of two occasions when someone from our group, out
    doing consulting, was told not to recommend a resident -- no one could
    be found to fill the residency.

I would like to thank all those people who took the time to express their 
views regarding the sales support issue.  Not only to the people who responded 
in this notes file, but to those who sent me mail as well.  Your comments were
summarized and presented to management.  There was general agreement that the 
problem had not been solved, but steps were being taken to help improve the 
situation.  The following programs were sited as evidence that change was 
happening.

        TP training seminars
        DU:IT Sales Support Seminars
        Increases Sales Support Personnel
        TP Resource Centers
        
Most of these programs need time before the benefits are realized. They also 
do not address all of the concerns expressed in the notes and letters that I 
received, but some change are being made.  As many of you pointed out, the 
real problem is probably how sales is measured.   If sales were measured on 
selling some of Digital's strategic software products, than some of the sales 
support problems would change. 

One of the major problems from our point of view is that sales is often not 
aware of available support resources.  That may not be true for those of you
who are booked two months in advance, but it happens more times than you 
think.  For example, of the five cases given to us at the Strategic Account 
Workshop, two went away and three found that they had local resources 
available that they were unaware of.  One area that Digital has definitely 
failed is to educate the sales force on what support resources are available 
and how do we go about working with them. 

We firmly believe that support resources are the key to the success of any of 
Digital's products.  Hal in his reply, has pointed out that we have been 
most successful where we have made the commitment in support personnel.  CMPD
has also recognized this fact, and has 5 engineers who are targeted with 
helping third party vendors port to Rdb.  We will continue to monitor this 
issue, and thank you again for your input.