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Conference ulysse::rdb_vms_competition

Title:DEC Rdb against the World
Moderator:HERON::GODFRIND
Created:Fri Jun 12 1987
Last Modified:Thu Feb 23 1995
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1348
Total number of notes:5438

386.0. "An oracle solution ?" by WAR750::BRYAN () Tue Jul 11 1989 18:49

Hi chaps,
  one of my networking colleagues has just returned from mixed 
ibm(db2)/dec(oracle) site clutching a piece of paper describing an 
oracle solution to a particular problem. Anybody got a comments ?

The requirement -

  a. To be able to update tables in either db2 or oracle from either 
environment.

  b. Without the need for two terminals per desk.

Proposed solution -

     63xx (standalone)                    30xx or equivalent
       A                                     B
  +-------------+                      +--------------------+
  |   vms       |                      |      mvs           |
  |-------------|                      |--------------------|
  | oracle      |    Decnet            |  db2   |   ims     |
  |-------------|     +----+           |--------------------|
  |tools|sql*net|     |    |           |  sql* connect      |
  |     |       |-----|    |           |--------------------|
  +-------------+     |    |-----------| sql*net | sql*plus |
      |               +----+           +--------------------+
      |              Interlink Box                    |
      |                                               |
      |                                               |
   Terminal                                         3270 Terminal
  

  The above configuration would allow data to be seamlesly transferred 
from oracle on A to DB2 on B, or vica-versa, with sql statements. 
Importantly no security can be bypassed and can be done via standard 
access to TSO( should that be mvs ? ) - no switching needed.

  Applications running on MVS can access data on the VAX and vica versa.

The end

 It looks plausible to me but there again I'm no expert on oracle or 
vax/ibm connectivity issues. So, is there any dirt I can rub into what 
their suggesting.
  

 

T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
386.1Need more info but here's a startMAIL::DUNCANGGerry Duncan @KCOTue Jul 11 1989 21:3653
    Some thoughts:
    
    1. You need to establish how SQL*connect makes its connection to
    DB2.  Is it a VTAM application accessing DB2 via the call attachment,
    or is SQL*connect a TSO application, or does it execute as a CICS
    application ???  This is important to know since it will tell us
    how seamless the integration really is.  If SQL*connect runs as
    a CICS application (which I doubt), the MVS host will need the CICS
    attachment for DB2 (which comes from IBM).
    
    2. You mentioned TSO for security purposes but should also check
    to see if CICS and/or IMS applications will be needing to access
    the VAX Oracle.  There is a lot of difference between each of these
    three approaches (TSO, IMS, CICS) and make no assumptions re: security
    or integration.  For example, IF SQL*connect runs as a TSO application
    (batch or interactively), it is unlikely that a CICS application
    can "seamlessly" (sp?) access the VAX Oracle database or vice versa.
    
    3. Additional information we need to help analyze this solution:

        a. Does Oracle run in a separate MVS region ??  Where does SQL*plus
    		run, SQL*net, SQL*connect run, Oracle kernel ???
        b. Exactly (and I mean exactly) how does SQL*connect access
    		DB2.  There are only four attachment facilities to
    		DB2 (CICS, IMS/DC, TSO, call).  This is your #1 question.
        c. Exactly how does the IBM application access VAX Oracle ?
    		SQL*net is NOT the answer since it is only a transport
    		layer, not an API.  SQL*plus is not the answer since
    		SQL*plus stmts cannot be imbedded in an applicaiton
    		program.
    
    4. Oracle cannot claim to have read/write capability to DB2 from
    the VAX or from the IBM since this would require two-phase commit
    and they DO NOT HAVE 2PC. Sure they may be able to write to DB2
    through some obscure method but there is no recovery.  

    5. What does the Interlink box look like to the VAX??  to the IBM
    ??  If the interlink box requires MVS software (which I suspect
    it does), that probably means it looks like a PU4 or PU5 vs a PU2.
    This may mean some risk for future versions or MVS and/or Interlink
    software coordination.
    
  
    Based on what I know about Oracle's ability to connect to DB2, I'd
    say they're getting ready to set up a consulting engagement to write
    the code to match the requirements they've convinced the customer
    to spec since their connection to DB2 is not nearly as clean as
    VIDA.
    
    

	
        
386.2Is this seammless ?WAR750::BRYANWed Jul 12 1989 12:2848
    
    Thanks for your reply Gerry. I've done some digging around in notes
    and I came across this entry from Michael Booth.
    
              <<< BISTRO::ETC:[NOTES$LIBRARY]RDB_VMS_COMPETITION.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Rdb/VMS against the world >-
================================================================================
Note 297.1                      ORACLE & DB2 ?


                         1 of 4
BROKE::BOOTH "What am I?...An Oracle?"               22 lines   3-FEB-1989 16:06
                             -< Yes, but not Well >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Yes, in two ways.
    
    Oracle tools can run on an IBM mainframe and make calls to a resident
    DB2 database.
                
    Oracle has a product called SQL*Connect that can be installed on
    a mainframe. That product will allow an Oracle database on a VAX
    to communicate with the IBM DB2 database via an SNA/Gateway.
                
    Note that SQL*Connect will cost exactly 50% of the price of the
    Oracle RDBMS on said mainframe. In addition, if the customer is
    using MVS/XA (who isn't with DB2?), Oracle will tage him for another
    service called "/XA Support". I think they will also have to but
    SQL*Net to make the whole thing work.
    
    Then once it's installed, the discovery is made that the only
    communication is through Oracle's SQL*Plus interactive SQL. In other
    words, none of the other Oracle tools have direct access to the
    DB2 database. They must call pre-written SQL*Plus routines to get
    to the IBM data.
    
    ---- Michael Booth

    
        
    The bottom line seems to be that the link is not as quite as seamless
    as they have suggested in that none of the tools have direct access
    to DB2 , they need to call pre-written sql*plus routines to do so.
    
    I dont think 2PC is an issue here as they are not updating oracle
    and db2 in a single transaction.

    I take your point ( in 5. ) about the interlink box and will look
    into this a little further.
                               
    Charles
386.32PC not requiredCOOKIE::BERENSONVAX Rdb/VMS VeteranWed Jul 12 1989 18:289
>    4. Oracle cannot claim to have read/write capability to DB2 from
>    the VAX or from the IBM since this would require two-phase commit
>    and they DO NOT HAVE 2PC. Sure they may be able to write to DB2
>    through some obscure method but there is no recovery.  

No, you don't need 2PC.  You only need 2PC to update more than one
database at a time.  If what the customer is trying to do is have
SQL$FORMS on the VAX update a single DB2 database, then it would work
with fuil recovery, integrity, etc. (in theory, that is).
386.4INTERLINK + IBM = LOSS $TRCU09::NAISHRDB4ME Paul Naish @ 637-3352Mon Jul 17 1989 15:1319
    I've come across the INTERLINK solution before. A friend at ORACLE
    phoned to say that the easiest way for them to connect IBM PC's
    to an IBM mainframe was via DECnet-DOS and INTERLINK!
    
    There is a cautionary note in the solution though. INTERLINK use
    to be DEC's good buddy before we had our high-speed channel attach
    SNA solution. Since then, they have hopped into bed with IBM to
    help provide IBM's access to the DECnet world including putting
    DECnet under NETVIEW. While their earlier solutions were PDP and
    �VAX based, I believe today they are looking at 9370 based products.
    In addition, I think they are also working with IBM on providing
    a DECnet 'Portal' product over SNA.
    
    The bottome line! Be carefull with INTERLINK and look to see if
    DEC now provides a product which can be used in its place! For more
    information I would suggest trying some of the network conferences.
    
    Paul