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Conference ulysse::rdb_vms_competition

Title:DEC Rdb against the World
Moderator:HERON::GODFRIND
Created:Fri Jun 12 1987
Last Modified:Thu Feb 23 1995
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1348
Total number of notes:5438

202.0. "Precompiler for ORACLE" by HGOVC::FLORENCEKWAN (Florence Kwan) Fri Sep 23 1988 11:28

   Here we are now having a keen competition with Oracle with our Rdb
    V3.0 and ACMS. We are a bit worried that the customer would choose
    ACMS and ORACLE. I know that if ORACLE has to be used with ACMS,
    the interface will be through 3GL database call. 
    Can anybody tell me more about the precompiler for ORACLE, 
    how does that compare with our RDBPRE ?
    
    Does the PROCOBOL of ORACLE behave like our callable RDO ?
    
    Thanks in advance for any helpful reply.
    
    Cheers,
    Florence
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202.1Oracle and TP don't mixDEBIT::DREYFUSFri Sep 23 1988 17:4558
>   Here we are now having a keen competition with Oracle with our Rdb
>    V3.0 and ACMS. We are a bit worried that the customer would choose
>    ACMS and ORACLE. I know that if ORACLE has to be used with ACMS,
>    the interface will be through 3GL database call. 
>    Can anybody tell me more about the precompiler for ORACLE, 
>    how does that compare with our RDBPRE ?
    
>    Does the PROCOBOL of ORACLE behave like our callable RDO ?
    
If the customer is to use ACMS, then they might be interested in our
TP architecture (we have one, Oracle doesn't).  The Oracle solution
requires the use of our TP monitor (ACMS) and our forms products (TDMS or FMS).

SQL*FORMS would not work with ACMS.

Oracle's precompilers require that programs be compiled without optimization
(/NOOPTIM) producing less efficient code.  In addition, the Oracle precompilers
require that runtime libraries be available on the target system.

That is, any machine that wants to run an Oracle precompiled program must
install Oracle's precompilers (even for runtime systems).  Oracle doesn't
have any concept of a runtime system.

I don't know what impact this will have on performance, but it could be
significant.  It does have an impact on price.  The precompilers will
have to be licensed on all machines running the task definitions.

Each Oracle precompiler costs $18,000 on a VAX 6240 (for example).  Then
there is the cost of maintenance (7.5% for updates, 15% for phone support
per year, per license).  The costs for there DBMS are even more outrageous.

If the customer wants performance,  they will need to purchase Oracle's TPS
(transaction processing subsystem).  It is only through this system that
you get row-level locking, online backup, etc.  All these come with Rdb.
TPS costs an additional 60% of the Oracle DBMS license (again, plus 22.5%
a year in support costs).

Oracle also wants there customers to use their new language PL/SQL for 
performance.  This language is Ada like and is totally incompatible with
Oracle's previous SQL products.  I have no idea how PL/SQL will integrate
with ACMS.  Some of the same concepts are in both ACMS and PL/SQL, but
they are probably not compatible.  I don't know if PL/SQL is its own
language (with compiler) or if it is precompiled and then compiled
with a VAX language.

The customer should really have a TP monitor designed to work with 
the database (Rdb).

Another issue is what happens when the customer has a problem implementing
the solution.  TP monitors, Forms, and databases are tightly coupled.
How can we support Oracle's database and help them in design?  How can
Oracle help the customer with ACMS and TDMS?


Hope this helps.  Call with questions.  

--David
dtn 381-2893
202.2It Ain't PrettyMDVAX1::DUNCANGGerry Duncan @KCOThu Sep 29 1988 20:0350
    Here's the scoop on Oracle V5.1 interface.  There are two ways to
    get to the database in Cobol.  Using Oracle's terms, there are the
    HLI (high level interface) and PCC (precompiler).  Some 4GL tools
    generate HLI calls which can change from one Oracle release to another.
    (I know because I'm involved with a customer who has a 4GL and is
    stuck in this situation.)  If the programmer uses the HLI (macro
    like) interface, no precompiler is necessary and the code can be
    compiled with optimization.  The draw back of HLI is that Oracle
    will someday (rumored in V6) not support this interface directly
    and the programmer would have to learn the call structure each time
    Oracle has a new release.
    
    PCC works much like RDO and the entries in your Cobol program are
    more civil.  When the code goes through the Oracle precompiler,
    HLI calls are generated and the VMS cobol compiler is invoked. 
    The advantage for the programmer to use the PCC approach is that he
    is insulated from changes in the call structure because the precompiler
    maps the PCC statements to the HLI syntax for that particular release
    of Oracle.
    
    PL/SQL is yet another interface to V6 with TPS.  Noone seems to
    know what it is or how it will be handled except that you will have
    to modify your programs in order to get full performance boost from
    V6 and TPS.  (I'll know a lot more 2 weeks from now.)
    
    Last week I did a benchmark on Oracle at the Los Angeles benchmark
    facility using 5.1.22 and it was a disaster.  Since the customer
    identified the poor performance of Oracle (which caused us to fail
    the benchmark) as a significant problem (.5 TPS max on 8820), they
    are pounding on Oracle for a V6/TPS benchmark which we will run
    on Friday, Oct 7.  I will report the results of all benchmarks in
    this conference after we're done.  (By the way, we will still get
    the PO for the system but customer is holding Oracle's 200K PO until
    after the benchmark.)  I'll also know more about the modifications
    to the Cobol source as well.
    
    Give me a call if you want to discuss ..... you can win Rdb battle
    but have to sell Rbd unique features:  backup, row level locking,
    easy to manage, et al.  
    
    DON'T LET THIS GET OUT OF HAND .... ASK FOR PERFORMANCE RUNS AND
    BENCHMARKS OF RDB VS ORACLE .... 
    
    Gerry Duncan @KCO
    DTN 452-3445
 
    
  
    
    
202.3recent update?CGOO01::LMILLERNow try it once more ......Thu Feb 15 1990 19:3410
    Any changes known in V6 regarding the compilers?
    
    I am in a situation which forces me to help ORACLE size a machine.
    It's a long story.  I have to be pleasant, but I want to know the
    pitfalls - ie which languages do they support etc - so "to be
    forewarned is to be forearmed " etc.
    
    Thanks
    
    Linda
202.4TROA01::NAISHRDB4ME Paul Naish DTN 631-7280Sat Feb 17 1990 16:3515
    Linda, I suggest you look at the notes under DIR/TITLE=SIZE.
    
    Also, Art Kamp in the London office may be able to help. He is working
    at a customer at present who has standardized on ORACLE. Another
    person with hands-on experience is Martin Kunaus (TRCO01::). Martin
    was working at the Ontario Ministry of Health which is also an ORACLE
    shop.
    
    The trick is that you need to ensure the proper sizing is done and
    that the local ORACLE office is on the hook if their estimates a
    off. We shouldn't size systems but get ORACLE to do so.
                          
    TTFN
    
    Paul