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Conference ulysse::rdb_vms_competition

Title:DEC Rdb against the World
Moderator:HERON::GODFRIND
Created:Fri Jun 12 1987
Last Modified:Thu Feb 23 1995
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1348
Total number of notes:5438

43.0. "KNOCK-OFFS FOR ADABAS/NATURAL VS. RDB/RALLY" by IRT::MCGOWAN () Tue Nov 10 1987 20:24

***** Need info to position Rdb, Teamdata and Rally VS ADABAS & 
NATURAL *****

It seems that I have been working forever on this account (The 
Conference Board) trying to get them to buy Rdb, Teamdata and Rally.  
They are also going to be using All-In-1.  In demonstrating these 
products we put Teamdata under All-In-1 and used Gold-key editing and 
saving to Scratch pad.  We stressed integration and Gold-key editing 
alot.  MIS likes Rdb.  Users liked Teamdata but wanted more 
comprehensive report writing capabilities.  MIS is currently on 
ancient Burroughs technology and our pure COBOL 3GL coders (and not to 
bright or forward thinking at that).  Rally scared the living 
daylights out of them.  They can't seem to visualize moving from 
procedural code to on-line interactive application development without 
procedural code (or without a good deal of procedural code).

They looked at ORACLE and INGRES also.  Seems non of these made them 
warm and fuzzy.  We did a non-disclosure about Rally V2.0 cause 
Rally's user interface really scared them.  V2.0 will help alot, but 
is considered too far out.  I don't know anything about ADABAS and 
NATURAL except what I've read in product literature and this notes 
file.  I'm desparately looking for good product knock-offs.  So far 
all I've got is the fact that it's really an inverted list and not 
relational, and that NATURAL is VERY procedural.  Seems sort of 
DATATRIEVE-like.  Unfortunately, I believe MIS is probably attracted 
to NATURAL due to its VERY PROCEDURAL flavor.  Its something they can 
finally relate to.

Any help would be VASTLY appreciated.  I'm running out of time.

Thanks,

Leslie McGowan
subway::mcgowan
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
43.1It's always somewhere on Easynet!BISTRO::ROWLANDSRob RowlandsWed Nov 11 1987 15:45595
        <<< PRSOIS::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CLUB_GESTION.NOTE;1 >>>
                             -< SIG Club Gestion >-
================================================================================
Note 8.0                   ADABAS (Merci P.Grogniet!)                    1 reply
PRSSOS::LECORE "Guy Lecore, RDB/VAXclusters, Count" 488 lines  20-FEB-1987 12:15
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                         ADAPTABLE DATA BASE

                  (ADABAS V.4.1; ADABAS (VMS) V.1.1)


Initial compilation: September, 1985.
Revised: September, 1986.



1.1  ******** COMPETITIVE ANALYSIS ********

1.1.1  PRODUCT OVERVIEW (ADABAS V.4.1; ADABAS (VMS) V.1.1)

     ADABAS is an inverted index  data  base  management  system  with
relational-like  features.   ADABAS  uses a number of utility programs
under DOS or OS with EXCP for data base generation  and  access.   The
ADABAS  nucleus  supports  concurrent  batch  and  online  processing.
Interfaces are provided for TP monitors such as  ComPlete,  CICS,  TSO
and  Taskmaster  as  well  as  IMS DB/DC and FASTER.  All ADABAS (VMS)
communications are dependent on the operating  system  facilities.   A
data  compression  algorithm to load into the data base is an integral
function of the system.  Also featured is the separation  of  physical
data  storage  from the representation of logical relationships in the
data base.  ADAMINT is used to generate high-level interface  routines
for  applications  programs.   ADABAS  also  includes  a comprehensive
security system and automatic restart/recovery capabilities.  [4,5]

     ADABAS (VMS) is a version of the system  for  use  with  the  DEC
VAX-11 series of minicomputers.  ADABAS (VMS) is a full implementation
of mainframe ADABAS for VAX processors, and is currently bundled  with
NATURAL (VMS).  The ADABAS/VSAM Bridge is a conversion aid that allows
users  with  VSAM  data  bases  to  migrate  to  ADABAS  with  no  new
applications  programming.   This  facility is available to both OS/VS
and DOS/VSE users.  [5]


1.1.2  GENERAL TRENDS, POSITIONING, COMPETITIVE INFORMATION


      o  We will see a significant challenge in the future  from  this
         product,  as it is a good performer and has a good reputation
         among the user base. 

      o  ADABAS does support clusters as a network, but routes all
         requests through one node.

 


1.1.3  SELLING STRATEGIES

     KNOCKOFFS (Rdb/VMS vs.  ADABAS)

      o  Unstructured data support (any digitized data can  be  stored
         in Rdb/VMS databases).

      o  The price of ADABAS ($50,000 on VMS)  is  steep  compared  to
         $15,600  (for Rdb/VMS and DATATRIEVE); this will make Rdb/VMS
         more suited to the smaller applications and tight budgets.

      o  Rdb/VMS supports several more  datatypes,  including  varying
         text, date, and floating point.

      o  VIA integration allows us to sell forms (TDMS), graphics  and
         a   report  writer  (DATATRIEVE),  spreadsheet  (DECalc),  an
         Application  Control  and  Management   System   (ACMS)   and
         dictionary (CDD) for well under the total cost of ADABAS with
         options.  There is no spreadsheet available with ADABAS.

      o  Users will likely find  ADABAS  more  difficult  to  use,  as
         physical  and  logical  database  design  must  be taken into
         consideration.  Rdb/VMS  users  must  only  consider  logical
         database  design  or have the ability to easily change
         the design to get good performance with  no  further  tuning.
         There are no tradeoffs of flexibility vs.  performance.

      o  Digital offers strength in  distributed  database  management
         through  the remote access and update capabilities of Rdb/VMS
         and remote transaction processing capabilities  of  VAX  ACMS
         V2.   This  enables us to put together a TP solution based on
         the Digital style of computing (many machines cooperating  to
         do  the  job)  rather  than  selling the centralized approach
         typical with an ADABAS installation.

      o  Rdb/VMS provides ease of use and flexibility,  especially  at
         the design phase.  We make it much easier to get the database
         up  and  running  with   good   performance  for   smaller   
         organizations  and  applications that do not have the benefit 
	 of a DBA, Rdb/VMS should have the edge.



     STRENGTHS (ADABAS)

      o  ADABAS  excels  in   high   volume   data   base   management
         environments where there is a centrally administered file, as
         compared to VAX DBMS.

      o  ADABAS is easy to use.  It is a field oriented system with no
         embedded structure.  This structure facilitates changes.

      o  Security is implemented at  the  field,  not  just  the  file
         level.

      o  Automatic START RESTART capability provides  control  of  the
         timing of updates.

      o  Users can dump very large data files onto disk without having
         to  first  massage it with a data definition language.  Those
         files are then converted to ADABAS format in  a  fraction  of
         the time normally required.  [1]

      o  A variety of user languages  can  accomodate  many  different
         types of users.  [1]

      o  The  product  has  extensive   network   support   facilities
         including   ADABAS/VTAM  (provides  network  capabilities  in
         remote processors), Channel-To-Channel Software system (CTCS)
         (provides  network  capabilities  to  local  processors)  and
         ADABAS/VM  (provides  communications   in   virtual   machine
         environments.  [1]

      o  The ADABAS/VSAM Bridge can migrate VSAM programs.

      o  Its "loose" file structure allows  the  database  to  support
         unlimited  modifications  without having to be reloaded.  All
         of the changes are automatically captured by indexes.  [1]

      o  The flexible structure of ADABAS allows a DBA to  choose  the
         data  base  architecture  that  best  fits  an  application's
         requirements.  [2]

      o  ADABAS  does  not  need  to   design   chain   pointers   and
         predetermined paths, so reloading is relatively easy.  [2]

      o  ADABAS performs best in a highly centralized environment.  It
         is  built  to  handle  the  continuous operations of a highly
         interactive  environment.   The  ADABAS  DBMS   automatically
         reclaims  space  when  it  becomes  available and the storage
         space in ADABAS does not have to be reorganized.  As  records
         are  updated, deleted, or added, the random access efficiency
         capabilities of ADABAS  are  not  degraded.   All  integrated
         ADABAS   components   contain  multithreading  and  multiuser
         subtasks.  The latter capability allows all system  users  to
         share work areas.  [2]

      o  All ADABAS's TP programs are user friendly and do not take up
         large amounts of overhead.  [2]

      o  ADABAS is a good DBMS that is  pretty  simple  to  learn  and
         master   for  all  users.   ADABAS  has  established  a  good
         benchmark  record  that  is  getting  better  with  each  new
         enhancement.  [2]

      o  Software AG has done a good job in  implementing  distributed
         data  management.   [3] Three optional products, ADABAS/VTAM,
         the Channel-to-Channel Software System (CTCS), and ADABAS/VM,
         permit  the  use  of  ADABAS  in  all  types  of  distributed
         environments.  [5]

      o  ADABAS has a good data dictionary which offers  an  effective
         approach  to  distributed data.  [3] PREDICT, the ADABAS data
         dictionary, allows users to access data from other DBMS's  or
         files and perform updates and changes.  PREDICT is monolithic
         and contains multithreading capabilities.  [2]

WEAKNESSES (ADABAS)

      o  The query language, NATURAL, is an option which adds  $40,000
         - $60,000 to the base price of ADABAS.  [1]

      o  ADAMINT is not available on VAX systems.  ADAMINT supports  a
         MACRO  interface  between  ADABAS  and  applications programs
         written in any high-level language with a CALL facility.  [1]

      o  Faces more competition from relational tools such as  Ingres,
         ORACLE,   and  Britton-Lee's  IDM  systems.   ADABAS'  future
         limitation may be an inability to provide more  of  the  same
         query-type   capabilities   as  it  moves  into  more  direct
         competition with relational databases.  [1]

      o  The lack of tightly linked  data  chains  puts  ADABAS  at  a
         disadvantage  with  some competitors when operating in highly
         interactive production environments.  [2]

      o  ADABAS does not allow a DBA to create a physical table for  a
         user.  [2]

      o  SUPERNATURAL, an end-user language, is not very  spectacular.
         [3]




1.2  ******** PRODUCT PROFILE ********


1.2.1  PRODUCT NAME:

Adaptable Data Base (ADABAS) (V.4.1), (ADABAS (VMS) V.1.1)



1.2.2  VENDOR:

Software AG of North America, Inc.
Reston International Center
11800 Sunrise Valley Drive
Reston, VA   22091
703-860-5050



1.2.3  TYPE OF SYSTEM

     Inverted list with relational-like features.  [5]



1.2.4  MODE OF OPERATION

     Interactive



1.2.5  TYPES OF USERS

     Large government agencies and industrial establishments.



1.2.6  NUMBER OF INSTALLATIONS

     About 1,800 users worldwide.  [5]



1.2.7  SOME INSTALLATIONS

1.2.8  COMPUTERS/OPERATING SYSTEMS SUPPORTED

     IBM 370/125 and larger, 4300 series, 30 series; SSX/VSE,  DOS/VS,
DOS/VSE, OS/VS1, OS/VS2(MVS) and CMS component of VM/370.

     All  equivalent  plug-compatible  systems  produced  by   non-IBM
vendors.

     Digital Equipment Corporation's VAX-11/750 and VAX-11/780; VMS.

     Siemens 4004/45 and larger;; PBS, BS100, BS2000.


1.2.9  MINIMUM CONFIGURATION

     ADABAS kernal  requires  a  minimum  of  320K  bytes  of  virtual
storage.   ADABAS  (VMS) can be installed on DEC's VAX 11/725 - 11/785
and 8600 under the VMS operating system.  VT100  and  VT200  terminals
are  supported.   Dedicated  working  sets  of  .5M  to  1M  bytes are
required.



1.2.10  PRODUCT COMPONENTS

     The  components  of  the  ADABAS  DBMS  are   PREDICT,   NATURAL,
ADASCRIPT, ADACOM, and ADAMINT.  PREDICT, the data dictionary, tightly
integrates the four components.

     Only ADABAS (VMS) and NATURAL (VMS) are available on VAXs.



1.2.11  HOST LANGUAGES

     Any high-level language with CALL facility.



1.2.12  COMMUNICATIONS INTERFACES SUPPORTED

     COM-PLETE; IBM CICS, TSO, DC component of IMS DB/DC  and  FASTER;
Polygon  INTERCOMM;  Westinghouse WESTI; or ADABAS (VMS), depending on
the operating system used.

     NATURAL  CONNECTION  is  an  option  that  enales  uploading  and
downloading of data between a micro and a mainframe.



1.2.13  TERMS OF AVAILABILITY

     Package licenses (except the VMS version, which is not  available
for  lease)  can  be  purchased  or leased.  Purchases can be financed
through Software AG.



1.2.14  COST OF OWNERSHIP

     License purchase ranges from $106,000 (the ADABAS kernal for  any
DOS  environment)  to  $242,000  (the  ADABAS  kernel  version for IBM
OS/VS2(MVS) systems with NATURAL and PREDICT options).

     ADABAS (VMS), which is bundled with NATURAL (VMS) costs  $50,000.
Discounts  of  25%  to  60% can be negotiated for educational usrs and
quantity purchasers.

     First year service is included in the license price.  The cost of
service for five years ranges from $42,000 to $96,800.



1.2.15  SUPPORT

     One year of free technical services and three days of  free  data
base  administrator  (DBA)  on-site  orientation  in  conjunction with
installation are  provided  for  all  leased  or  purchased  licenses.
Continuing  technical  support  is proveded for an annual fee based on
10% of the current license purchase price for each component.  Ongoing
service maintenance costs 15% of current purchase price.



1.2.16  SECURITY AND INTEGRITY

     Password file access;  multilevel  field  access/update  control;
field-value-dependent  record  access  control;  cipher facilities for
user-provided code.



1.3  ******** TECHNICAL SUMMARY OF PRODUCT CAPABILITIES ********

1.3.1  DATABASE DEFINITION

1.3.2  DATABASE STRUCTURE


      o  LOGICAL

              The  major   index   component   is   an   inverted-file
         associator.    The  inverted  file  scheme  is  an  index  by
         descriptor (domain) rather than by record  (tuple)  identity.
         An  inverted  file approach structurally supports generalized
         queries such as "List all the sales personel who  are  female
         and  who  make more $40,000." rather than direct queries such
         as "How much does Jane Doe earn?"

              A     logical-address-to-physical-address     conversion
         technique  permits  the indexes to be decoupled from the data
         and allows substantial data movement  on  disk  with  minimum
         effect on the indexes.

              Search criteria can be fully modulated  through  Boolean
         and mathematical operators.

      o  PHYSICAL

              All data is stored in tabular  form  and  there  are  no
         built  in  address  pointers to superimpose a hierarchical or
         complex overlay  on  the  data.   The  tables  or  relations,
         however, are not normalized and can contain repeating groups.

              Data compression is standard.  This in combination  with
         ADABAS'  buffer  management  techniques,  enhances processing
         efficiency because disk input/output is reduced.

              Data access is handled  through  EXCP;  certain  utility
         functions  use  QSAM.   In  addition, an ADABAS direct access
         method called ADAM can be  used  to  optimize  random  access
         operations on a uniquely defined description field.

              In ADABAS, rows (tuples) are called records and  columns
         (domains)  are descriptors.  A record/descriptor intersection
         produces a field (value  of  a  data  item).   A  record  can
         contain  up  to 500 fields, which can be defined by up to 200
         descriptors.

              Every  record  is  identified  by   an   ADABAS-assigned
         Internal Sequence Number (ISN).

              A file can contain up to 16.7 million  records,  and  an
         ADABAS  database  can  consist  of  up  to 255 files.  ADABAS
         supports multiple databases.  Multithreading is supported for
         2 to 20 concurrent threads.  [5]

      o  DATATYPES

         Alphanumeric
         Binary
         Fixed-point
         Packed or unpacked decimal format


      o  PREDEFINED FUNCTIONS

         ADASCRIPT includes the following capabilities:
         Addition
         Subtraction
         Multiplicaton
         Division
         Counts
         Floating point options




      o  INTEGRITY CHECKING

              During program creation, NATURAL performs a syntax check
         of each line as it is entered.  Error messages are displayed.

              The ADABAS Reflective Data Base Feature,  introduced  in
         beta  sites in 1984, is designed to eliminate the possibility
         of interruptions to database processing caused by I/O errors.
         With this feature, some of the blocks in the primary database
         and/or all of the blocks in the primary protection log can be
         maintained  in  mirror-image  copies  called "Reflective Data
         Base." Then, in the case of errors, the reflective data  base
         can be used to restore data.

      o  SECURITY

              Password security can be used by the DBA to control other
         users'  access  to  particular  files, and, for each file, to
         specify access or update privileges.  Access to fields within
         files can also be controlled.

              Encryption can be used to make it difficult to read  the
         contents of a data base obtained from a physical dump.




1.3.3  DATA DEFINITION INTERFACES


      o  LANGUAGE

              File entry/conversion/creation is handled by  a  nucleus
         utility  with an exit to user-written programs to accommodate
         unusual data occurrences.

      o  PROCESSING OF LANGUAGE

              In the interactive mode, a user  is  prompted  for  each
         statement  line.   In  the  batch  mode,  all statement lines
         contained in the input stream are  read  and  interpreted  by
         NATURAL.

              NATURAL operates as a  standard  transaction  processing
         (TP)  program  and  follows  the rules that apply to programs
         executing under the control of the  specific  TP  monitor  in
         use.

      o  DATA DICTIONARY

              PREDICT, the ADABAS Data Dictionary, is an active system
         that  contains  information that describes a data base's data
         and its use.  The description of data includes files, fields,
         and the relationship between the two.

              The Data Dictionary file is comprised  of  the  Standard
         Definition  File,  which  contains  commonly  used fields and
         their basic attributes; the Physical Definition File; and the
         Userview   File,   which  contains  a  data  base's  Userview
         definitions.  A "pull forward" facility  permits  entries  in
         the Standard Definiton file to be automatically inserted into
         the other two.


1.3.4  DATABASE MANIPULATION

FUNCTIONS

      o  RETRIEVAL

              ADASCRIPT  enables  users  to   retrieve   and   display
         information  from  an  ADABAS  data base at the terminal.  It
         contains  the   following   features:    arithmetic,   report
         formatting,   totals   and   count,   calculator  mode,  code
         translation,  condition   statements,   control   statements,
         dynamic   overrides,   record   selectoin,   record  sorting,
         statistical option, etc.

================================================================================
Note 8.1                   ADABAS (Merci P.Grogniet!)                     1 of 1
LYO01::LACOMBE_D                                     99 lines   1-APR-1987 09:01
                           -< IS ADABAS RELATIONAL >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                     < adabas discussion on relational aspect >

 my name is DIDIER LACOMBE
 I am DATABASE consultant in LYON FRANCE
 I used  ADABAS 1 years ago on IBM system


			ADABAS IS NOT RELATIONAL
	------------------------------------------------------

1/ tables can have repeating group , so they are not under first normal form
, this option leads to much better performance then for a full
relational system, but... what happens with redundancy, and when repeating 
group increase in size : rewrite your program .

repeating group ar limited to 99 , and the total memory size can' t grow up to
4k bytes for one record ,ADABAS can be seen as a hierchical dbms with
a limited level of hierarchies

  this point violate  CODD's first rule


2/ you can' t use ADABAS if you don't understand what an ISN is . an ISN
 ( internal system number ) is like a dbkey . You MUST use isn if you plan
 to use COBOL . If you READ by KEY , then ADABAS returns you an ISN , this ISN
  is used to read the record.

 Access by ISN is very performant, and generally that the way they implement 
 bench_mark, first read by key , then store isn list in table and
 continue precessing with isn only. But what happens if the table must grow:
 they change the program. We can also use DBKEY with same performances.

  this point violates another of the CODD'S rules : acces by data , without 
  link ,  vector  or pointer.

3/ DDL is not dynamic, you cannot mixed DDL and DML. You can't do 
   CREATE TABLE
   CREATE VIEW
   this point violates another of the CODD's rules : DDL and DML must be  
   at the same level.

4/ Metatada are not under relational form : metata data can't be accessed
   by DML.
   this point violates another of the CODD'S rule: DATA and MATADATA must be 
   in the   same organisation ( RELATIONAL IS SELF CONTAIN )

5/ CREATE VIEW is impossible, you must specify a KEY to access records.
   this point violates another of the CODD'S rule : program and data must be
   LOGICALY independent, any field can be a key at any time, a program is 
   never concerned by the logical organization, VIEW is necessary to keep
   logical independance.

6/ Under release 4 they were no INTEGRITY CONSTRAINT, check that under the 
   current release.

7/ They offer only a level 2 consistency, because they have only the PROTECTED
   WRITE LOCK , not the PROTECTED READ.No SNAPSHOT is available.
   in record creation they offer only the level 1: you can always read a 
   record stored by a not yet committed transaction. remember that RDB offers 
   a level  3 consistency.
 
THEY PRETEND TO BE RELATIONAL BECAUSE:

  they just manage files ( and a file is a table )
  they don't have links or rings or sets
  they can do boolean operation on ISN LIST ( LIKE with  KEEPLIST)
  they can do find customer gt 'balbla' and lt 'wwww' or eq '   '
  with  some kind of optimization to find the best strategy.
  they can create  new fields in batch mode only.

MAIN STRENGTH
--------------

BENCH MARK IN FRANCE ORGANIZED BY DECUS , FOUND MUCH , MUCH BETTER PERFORMANCES
COMPARED TO RDB AND OTHER RELATIONAL ( ORACLE INGRES) DATABASES PROBABLY BECAUSE
THEY USE REPEATED GROUPS IN TUPLES INSTEAD OF USING JOIN, AND BECAUSE THEY USE
ISN.

IN FACT , ADABAS MUST BE COMPARED TO RMS WITH RECOVERY , FOR IT'S 
ONLY A MULTI KEY TOOL.


OTHER WEAKNESSES:
-----------------

VERY COMPLEX TO USE UNDER COBOL , MORE THAN 10 PARAMETERS MUST BE SENT

OTHER REPLY EXPLAIN THEY DON' T SUPPORT CLUSTER

NATURAL IS LIMITED TO DO SIMPLE THING SIMPLY

DIDIER LACOMBE
LYO01::LACOMBE_D
DATABASE CONSULTANT LYON FRANCE 
43.2Datatrieve IS alive and well, ya knowDEBIT::BERENSONRdb/VMS - Number ONE on VAXThu Nov 12 1987 22:026
Have you tried offering them DATATRIEVE?????

I mean, if Natural is similar, then sell them DATATRIEVE for reporting
and TEAMDATA for real end-users.  AND, hold out the ability to use RALLY
in the future.
 
43.3in additionAKOV11::NEEDLEMANpsychedelic relicMon Nov 16 1987 18:486
         I agree to show them Datatrieve. But for the end-user
         information generator types, you can probably help yourself by
         showing the newest version of Decreporter. This is VERY popular
         among those who have seen it. 
         
         Barry
43.4DATATRIEVE performance vs. NATURALBMT::MCGOWANWed Nov 18 1987 16:1935
As far as offering them DATATRIEVE...seems it seems they are no longer 
really evaluating 4GLs, but rather 3 1/2 (procedural) GLs, I have in 
fact returned to talk to the head of MIS, and have requested that they 
give us the opportunity to show them our equivalent product suite (ala 
3 1/2 GL) to ADABAS, NATURAL & SUPERNATURAL.  For that purpose I 
think those DEC products should include Rdb, DATATRIEVE, CDD, and 
TEAMDATA.  My only concern with DATATRIEVE is with its performance 
since it is interpretive.  I have no information as to how it should 
stack up compared to NATURAL.  Does anyone know if NATURAL is 
interpretive, pre-compiled or what?

Software AG delivered their contracts yesterday, and the customer is 
about ready to sign.  They are tired of looking at products (no matter 
how fair or unfair).  The MIS director agrees that they absolutely 
told us they wanted a 4GL originally, and even said had I proposed 
DATATRIEVE to begin with, Digital would have been eliminated from 
their short list.  That's life.  They have changed theirs minds 
(unfortunately that's their prerogative) because 4GLs really scare 
them (able to go where no man has gone before!)!!!

Anyhow, as to be expected, now Software AG is trying to get the OA 
content away from us also.  I truly believe the customer is making a 
grave mistake, and I have told him so.  I've given the "look to the 
future...future applications...breadth of 3rd party products to 
integrate with Rdb speech" ad nauseum, and apparently to no avail.  It 
is very difficult for us to come up with solid reference accounts.  I 
have been working with Karen Hvizda on this.  Software AG, on the 
other hand has many good solid reference accounts that apparently not 
only love the product, but many also threw Rdb out.  That was probably 
eons ago, but the damage is severe.

Any additional advice or info on DATATRIEVE vs. NATURAL performance is 
appreciated.  Keep those cards and letters flowing.

Leslie McGowan
43.5try another source?DEBIT::BERENSONRdb/VMS - Number ONE on VAXFri Nov 20 1987 02:341
The REFER database contains over reference accounts with Rdb.
43.6Sorry, but it's compiledAUNTB::BOOTHA career of MISunderstandingFri Nov 20 1987 04:234
    Just for the record, NATURAL is compiled, and the performance is
    quite good (about like compiled Cobol code).
    
    ---- Michael Booth
43.7BIG ProblemsAUNTB::BOOTHA career of MISunderstandingSat Nov 21 1987 04:298
      It may be too late, but our local LARGE Adabas user is having
    all kinds of system problems. Unexplained system crashes, difficult
    recoveries, and a new wrinkle --- when one member of the VAXcluster
    system crashes Adabas seems to crash the other members as well.
      SAG is having greate difficulty recreating the circumstances,
    and the users are quite unhappy because the problems are not
    consistent. It's just intermittent screw ups. Drives them up a wall.
    ---- Michael Booth
43.8DUB01::OSULLIVAN_DWell Holy God!Tue Dec 15 1987 17:164
	Is it too late to consider acms/tdms/rdb with just a bare minimum
    of cobol code in the processing step.
    
    -Dermot