Conference ulysse::rdb_vms_competition

    
    	I'd like to add to the request...
    
    		I'd like information reguarding the effort/tools
    		to convert from INGRES to RDB...
    
    		If anyone was done convert effort in this area,
    		please let me know...
    
    		If you have a good idea how to do the conversion,
    		please send me mail..  You might get a trip to
    		Denver out of it....
    
    

    I'm not sure if anyone is still looking at this conference but here
    goes.
    
    It is unlikely for a company to switch from INGRES into RDB if they
    have a database already developed on INGRES.  It pains me to say
    this but RDB is less competitive than INGRES in user interfaces
    and application development tools.  Rally and Teamdata does provide
    some of the functionalities desired for querying or reporting with
    Teamdata for end-users and Rally for Application developers.  On
    the other hand INGRES has ABF, RBF, QBF for end users and EQUEL,
    ESQL, OSL, VIFRED, REPORT WRITER for application developers going
    under a common product roof.  Once they are actually on INGRES it
    may be difficult to convince them to scrap the INGRES system and
    convert to RDB.
    
    As to converting the database from INGRES to RDB, I'm not aware
    of any direct or indirect interface since they are competiting
    products.  But one possibility for a conversion of applications exist
    if the client has developed their applications using EQUEL or ESQL with
    a host language such as C, PASCAL, FORTRAN, COBOL or BASIC.  Since
    these languages are capable of embeddining RDO and EQUEL/ESQL, the
    only part of the applications require conversion are query statements
    and forms (and of course the database itself).  There are many
    similarities between the query languages so that if the person
    understand both, it is not too difficult to translate them.
    
    Hope this is of help,
    Mary

    You are right and you are wrong.
    
    Once a database decision is made, the database will stick for 3-5
    years, no matter how bad that product may be. So it is unlikely
    that a recent installation of any other database would convert to
    Rdb. 
    
    However, the tools argument is fallacious. The Ingres tools are
    loved by engineers and developers. The are notoriously inadequate
    for end-users. There are Ingres sights that have abandoned the Ingres
    tools in favor of SMARTSTAR. While developers represent a portion
    of the market, Ingres does little to address the needs of end-users
    and report-writers (generally management level employees). Rdb on
    the other hand can offer a wealth of tools to all users. If the
    end-users need to write reports and do financials, maybe FOCUS will
    help. The development group may prefer CorVision. 
    
    Most IBM commercial accounts use 3 or more 4GLs. What story does
    Ingres tell these people---"Don't worry...we have it all covered."
    Hardly likely. As Digital gets more involved with the commercial
    martkeplace, being able to offer such flexibility is a great plus.
    
    The other major fact is that Ingres is a horribly inept marketing
    company. Their VAX market share is now half of what it was only
    3 years ago. 
    
    ---- Michael Booth

    
    At a recent INGRES seminar, RTI announced that they are buying a
    product from a Denver based company to bring an ICON/graphics based
    end user tool to INGRES. I think that they must recognize a weakness
    in their product line for them to buy a 3rd party's product for
    end user functionality
    
    Jamey

I seem to remember announcements in the trade press a while back (within the
last 6 months, I think) that said that RTI and Sun were working together on
a 'standard' workstation graphics interface to relational databases.

Has anyone heard any more about this ?

    RE: .3
    
    O.K. I haven't any experience with INGRES for end-users except with
    QBF and RBF (and a bit of ABF).  Admitted, it may be inadequate
    for some of the things end-users want.  As to the decision makers
    for buying a system, unfortunately end-users are not as considered
    in such a decision.  There are still enough managerial level users
    who do not wish to 'dirty' their hand with work except for established
    applications which they rely on developers for input on what to use. 
    
    I do like the range of RBD tools available for a la carte selection,
    but something I have encountered in the past is that with a mixture,
    not enough attention is paid to consistency and compatibility of
    different products when one of the products goes into a new release.
    
    FOCUS is a nice product but at present they only have a read interface
    into RDB.  In addition, more complex manipulations may be beyond the
    knowledge of most end-users and tools such as TABLETALK are not
    bug-free and they allow the construction of queries that are blatently 
    wrong.
    
    A possibility for RDB et al is to coordinated the upgrades for
    consistency and market common selection groups as a fixed menu with
    a discount.  This may demonstrate to some clients that RDB is not
    just a database and nothing else.  At present, some portion of the
    market regard different DEC products are separate entities and not
    as different shaped pieces that can be fitted togather for different
    purposes.
    
    I do agree with that fact the INGRES (especially U.K.) seems to
    let the product sell itself rather than actively going after accounts
    to their disadvantage.  (although I don't know where you got the
    figure that their VAX market share is half of what it was 3 years
    ago).  And isn't it the best way to learn about doing something by
    learning from the mistakes of your competitors.
    
    Mary
    
    

From .5:

>I seem to remember announcements in the trade press a while back (within the
>last 6 months, I think) that said that RTI and Sun were working together on
>a 'standard' workstation graphics interface to relational databases.

>Has anyone heard any more about this ?


RTI and Sun are working on a product called SUN SIMPLIFY.  I believe
it will be exclusive to Sun products for 6 months.  After that, RTI can
market the product elsewhere (DECwindows, perhaps).

The product will attempt to fill perceived deficiencies in their end-user
product line.

From the Ingres User Association meeting reported on 5/23/88 (complete
minutes in outline form are elsewhere in this conference):

The product uses a bit-map interface as opposed the the character cell
stuff their products tend to use now.  It is designed to support
the decision support market: it is an end user tool, not for programmers.

The three main parts of it are:  The schema design tool, data browsing tool,
and query design tool.

The schema design tool follows the entity-relationship paradigm and will
allow read-write access to the design.  It should be available by year end.

The data browsing tool allows users to look at tables and the relationships
between them.  The relationships in the schema design are used to navigate
between tables.  For example, a user could 'click' on a supplier name
to find all the parts supplied by the supplier.  This part should
be available by year end.

The query design tool is a visual query writing program.  Probably similar
to that which is available with the Multiplex product (Network Innovations).
Multiplex is called PClink in the Ingres product line.

The output of the query design tool is good for sending to the report writer,
spreadsheets, and graphics programs.  The spreadsheet and graphics portions
are not currently available (I think the other stuff is in Beta).

This product should provide the next generation of QBF and RBF (query by forms
and report by forms).  It is based upon standard window environments for 
unix (VMS was uncertain 5/23/88).

The audience for the presentation was 50% workstation users.  This is 
considered the year of the workstation. 

Restrictions:

	There were no plans to support character-cell terminals with this
	product.

	There are no font control capabilities in the report writer (no 
	postscript).

	There is no plan to mix character-cell and window based applications
	for deployment with any Ingres development tool.

Note that Sun will be able to market this product with other database systems.
Probably this has the same 6 month restriction that RTI has in marketing
the product on other hardware platforms.

    The market share numbers came from the CIC "VAX/VMS Relational Database
    Market Share" surveys of '85, '86, '87', and '88. Ingres had 46%
    of the market in 1985. They now have 23% of that market. I believe
    that means a 50% or one-half loss of market share.
    
    ---- Michael Booth

    I wonder if you can supply the figures from the survey? I would
    be interested in seeing how RDB performed against other DBs such
    as INGRES, ORACLE, etc. over time.
    
    And can you indicated how:
      1) end users
      2) application developers
      3) management (ie system managers)
    view the different databases?
    
    Mary
    

                                                  
                                Year
    Vendor       1985      1986      1987     1988
                          Percent of Market                    
    Oracle         21        22        27       35
    Rdb            21        28        34       28
    Ingres         46        36        28       23

    
    Most of the cpmments I have heard indicate that Ingres is the
    sweetheart of the engineer/developer crowd.
    
    End-users favor Oracle because their user tools are so good.
    
    System managers hate both Oracle and Ingres, because they require
    so much intervention.
    
    But that's just me. System managers are rarely asked about database
    issues. It's too bad, because they normally have a much more accurate
    view of the product than do the developers or end-users who tend
    to view the database through their friendly interfaces.
    
    ---- Michael Booth

    Michael-
    
    Where did those numbers come from?
    
    Are they VMS only? Do they include uVAX?
    
    I've seen so many of these things.  
    
    Just wondering,
    
    

    The numbers are:
    U.S. Domestic only, VMS only, including sites with any VAX processors.
                      
    ---- Michael Booth

    We have an opportunity to convert a LARGE number of INGRES sites
    to Rdb as they upgrade their hardware from 780 class machines to 6000
    class machines, IF we can help them understand the effort required to
    go from Fortran with EQUEL to our (Rdb's) SQL.
    
    I've talked to a few people but haven't come up with anything real
    solid so far.  One suggestion was to use an INGRES tool to convert from
    EQUEL to INGRES version of SQL then our gateway to INGRES/SQL (ULTRIX)
    and then 'hopefully' converting to RDB SQL would be
    straightforward/easy, but this is a lot of steps and several unknowns.
    
    Any body have any other ideas or any experience that would be
    helpful???
    
    Thanks in advance!
    
    Maryann
    

    Why don't you talk to SmartStar. They started with QUEL, and until very
    recently, still supported it. They should have a good idea of the
    effort involved moving from QUEL to SQL.
    
    ---- Michael Booth

	This subject has been quiet for quite some time.  Any new
	developments on a conversion tool for Ingres to Rdb?  I
	have a customer that wants to convert without much pain.

	Gordon

    Could you post why your customer wants to migrate to Rdb? Also you may
    want to tell us a bit about the application. What was the
    application(s) developed with...f

    Tune in to the database announcement next Wednesday.  We'll be
    announcing our SQL translator products.
    
    Also, if your user has developed his applications using the Ingres
    Tools, it should be very easy to convert these applications to run with
    Rdb.  (remember that the Ingres Tools also run on Rdb)