Conference koolit::vms_curriculum

    While looking at the course specification, I noticed a section here
    called 'LATCP and LTLOAD.COM'.  There have been some changes to the LAT
    software that will require updating of the materials (LATCP syntax
    changes, renaming of the startup files, etc.).  We may also need to mention
    SET HOST/LAT somewhere.
    
    Mark Thorne

    
    	A draft of the eigth Sysnet II chapter entitled:
    	
    			Queue Management
    
    		is available for review in:
    
    	SUPER::ES$REVIEW:[SYSNET_II]SYSNETII_CHAP8.PS
    
    			Wendy

    Omissions 	- prefixed [O]
    Typos 	- prefixed [T] 
    
    It sure is a megamodule...
    
    Content is fine. The logic goes wrong around page 8-56. Are the
    pages in the correct order or is one or more pages missing there?
    
    Page	Comment
    -------------------
    8-3a	[T] Line 3: managment -> management
    
    8-8a	[T] Line 9: A output -> An output
    
    8-9a	[O] Line 4: execution becomes -> execution queue becomes
    
    8-10	[O] Bullet 7: PRINT places -> PRINT command places
    
    8-12	[O] Line 8: queuepriority -> queue priority
    
    8-34a	[T] Line 1: ]Limiting -> Limiting
    
    		Para 2 refers to pages though jobs may be limited by
    		block size. Perhaps the instructor page should
    		stick to blocks too?
    
    8-38	[T] Final line: LPA0) -> LPA0
    
    8-46a	[T] Line 12: exists, a you can -> exists, you can
    
    8-47	Line 6 & 7 (ahead of Example 8-11) are superfluous
    		following the statement at bullet 3
    
    8-53	[O] Final line: needs an extra "$" for continuity:
    
    		$ SHOW QUEUE/ALL SYS$BATCH
    		Batch queue SYS$BATCH, stopped
    		$
    		$ SHOW SYSTEM/BATCH
    		$
    
    		Students might wonder what follows the command 
    		SHOW SYSTEM/BATCH?
    
    8-56	First paragraph doesn't make sense. There wasn't an
    		instructor page 8-56a. have some pages got out of order
    		here?
    
    8-58a	$ SET QUEUE example at bottom of student page - WHERE?
    
    		[T] Bullet 7: but shouls a -> but should a
    
    8-65a	[T] Line 7: LOGIO -> LOG_IO

                         chapter 8
                    Queue Management
8-6 Maybe add one more bullet about $Start/queue/manager

               .Creates sys$system:jbcsysque.dat if it doesnt exist.

8-8  Often students ask about the symbiont, maybe mention its created when
your firt print queue is initialized or started.

I'm glad you didnt mention logical queues. Personally I think they are
a waste of time and 99.9% of the class could care less about them.
 
8-9 Change Generic Output Queue to --- Generic Print Queue

8-10 This page is very useful. I like it.

8-14  I dont think you can just throw this Vaxcluster queue management
page in at this point. It goes with the cluster queue stuff at the end
of this chapter.

8-18 in the example where you $init/queue/start/generic=(lpa0,lpb0) --
just mention one of the two execution queues you set up since the way
you show it in the book would be the default anyway.

8-20 Thank god the chapter left out logical queues, but you didnt leave out
how to set them up in this example of systartup_v5.com

8-56 first sentence.  The nature of these networked-based services is that..
-What networked based services?? WHere does this fit in?

I dont see how this page fits in. There is no heading introducing a new
topic or anything. Is RSM a layered product? Tell us.

8-57 Elaborate on this a bit. Maybe show an example. At least put something in
instructor notes. 

8-58 I just don't see how we can set up cluster queues when we have not
covered clusters yet.

They have no idea nodes can share a common disk or about the fact that they
can also share a common queue file, or about sys$common, which is where this
queue file would be.

8-59 your mentioning Barnum and Bailey, is the picture of that cluster in here
anywhere? Its a good example, but they need the diagram.

8-60 good, again need diagram of configuration.

8-63 You mention startnet, but they don't know what that is until chapter 10.

Second dash from the bottom. You talk about setting up service Circus.
This woill be terribly confusing at this point. This should not be in here.
It has nothing to do with queue management and they don't even see how to build
a cluster until sysnetIII if I remember correctly.

8-64  How do you program servers to have those names? Students ask now, and
at least put that in instructor notes. Also mention at least in instructor notes
the LATSYM symbiont and why we need a different one here.




Wendy Mullenhoff

		Queue  Management
		Chapter 8

Objectives 	Add to the list of objectives:
		Student should be able to initialize and start both
		print and batch queues.

8-16	The word automatically at the second bullet.  Might be better
	to say "In a command procedure" .

8-17	Where it makes reference to creating and starting the queue -
	change the command line from SYS$PRINT to another queue name.
	I don't think you really want to use a generic queue at this time.

8-18	Where it makes reference to creating a generic print queue with
	specific execution queues.
	Change the command line to truly show what the /GENERIC
	qualifier does.
	Maybe use
	$INITIALIZE/QUEUE/START/GENERIC=LPA0 SYS$PRINT

8-20	Leave out the logical queues OVERNIGHT and FORM3.

8-23	Could you list possible situations that may occur (example-out
	of paper) and what the status would be?

8-25	Space the three different times you can modify queue attributes
	further apart.  Presently it all runs together.

8-38	There is a typo
	$ASSIGN/MERGE LPB0 LPA0    --Get rid of the )

8-40	Maybe put these pages on forms in an appendix.  Just a 
	suggestion.  Alot of customers don't use forms.

8-45	You may want to mention to the student these things work only
	if page breaks exists in the file.

8-47	Is it really necessary to have the card reader.  Students 
	usually get a good laugh out of this.

8-50	You have yet to explain anything about ACLs.  Remove from
	this chapter and save for later.

8-55	Page looks totally naked.  Maybe add an example from the
	system for one of these commands.

8-56	Does NOT belong in this chapter nor at this time.
8-57    Does NOT belong in this chapter nor at this time.
	If you must include these two pages put after the summary
	page, please.

8-58a	What page does this really go with?

8-58	Add some blank lines from the heading and the information.
	Turn the first two bullets into an opening paragraph.
	After the third bullet add an example maybe
		$START/QUEUE/MANAGER   MAN_DSK:[CLUSMAN]JBCSYSQUE.DAT

8-61	Add to the instructor page a paragraph explaining why you may
	opt not to use this style.

	Problem with this command procedure you need a similar one on
	each node in the cluster.  If ten nodes you have ten files
	to maintain and modify.  Better to use a common file for any
	node.

8-63	Maybe remove this page.  It is not part of the objectives.


Also - How about an example of setting up a server execution queue.
	Most customers will be setting up this kind in the real world.

	I liked the cluster print and batch pages. Even without under-
	standing alot about cluster they could go home and set up
	cluster queues.

Lynn White
Washington D.C.

    
    	The two week time period for reviews is over.
    
    	Any comments entered after this note will be considered, time
    permitting.
    
    			Wendy

This reply is limited to technical errors only.  I'll refrain from making
comments one way or the other about content, style, etc....

Module 2 (Queue Management) in SYSNET II

p. 3-15		Shouldn't the terminal queue name be TERMINAL_PRINTER
		instead of LINE_PRINTER in the "Create and start the queue"
		operation?


p.3-35		We should see the QUEUE_MANAGER process in this display along
		with the JOB_CONTROL and BATCH_103.


p. 3-47		We should see the closing apostrophes around 'BARNUM_START'
		etc.


				Susan

    Hi,
    
    At this moment I'm preparing the SYSNET II chapter QUEUE MANAGEMENT and
    missing the right commands for creating, starting, stopping print 
    and batch queues for VMS version 5.5
    What does the qualifier /AUTOSTART_ON mean, especially in a cluster
    environment.
    What is the function of the files QAMAN$MASTER.DAT and
    SYS$QUEUE_MANAGER.QMAN$JOURNAL
    
    The theory in the studentguide SYSNET II at this moment contains only
    queue management V5.4 en not V5.5 except one page of mentioning the
    process QUEUE_MANAGER and the new files, QAMAN$MASTER.DAT, 
    SYS$QUEUE_MANAGER.QMAN$JOURNAL and SYS$QUEUE_MANAGER.QMAN$QUEUES
    I miss the process QUEUE_MANAGER in the example 3-10 page 3-55.
    
    Is it to the instructor to complement the chapter with Version 5.5
    theory?
    
    Greetings,
    Ed Janssen
    

Ed, much of what you need is in the V5.5 Update Seminar. You can pull the chapter
on queues from 

	SUPER::ES$REVIEW:[vms_v55_update]upd_batch_print.ps

Regards,

Perry

    >Is it to the instructor to complement the chapter with Version 5.5
    >theory?
    
    In the new curriculum, the general rule is to avoid teaching theory at
    all, unless it is essential to performance of a task. 
    
    Specifically for queues, management has not changed much from V5.4 to
    V5.5 -- the old commands still work (except that you no longer need
    START/QUEUE/MANAGER, since its effect is now permanent and Sys/Net II
    assumes the student is managing a system that has already been set up).
    Obviously the theory has changed a lot, but you shouldn't need the
    theory to manage the system.
    
    Please let us know if you disagree, and we can consider adding more
    theory in the next update. 
    
    Also, should we add autostart queues, given that we are sticking to
    essential features & have limited time? (In retrospect I think it would
    be a good idea, since the recommendation is to use them when possible.)
    
    QUEUE_MANAGER runs on only one node of a cluster, so if it's missing
    from a listing then you can assume the listing is taken from a node
    that's not running the queue manager.
    
    					Val
    

    
>>    In the new curriculum, the general rule is to avoid teaching theory at
>>    all, unless it is essential to performance of a task. 
  
    This really should be a new topic in the file, but since writes are
    disabled, I'll post it here.
    
    This statement, made by Val, is the heart of the "problem" that I have
    with the new curriculum.
    
    We will be teaching system managers from the cookbook perspective. 
    Without the underlying theory, I wish them much good luck when
    something doesn't go exactly, precisely right.  
    
    WE NEED TO TEACH THEM MORE THAN JUST THE COMMANDS!!!!!!!  WE NEED TO
    TEACH THE "WHY" BEHIND THE COMMANDS.
    
    Greg -- more frighted of this curriculum than ever.
    
      

>>    In the new curriculum, the general rule is to avoid teaching theory at
>>    all, unless it is essential to performance of a task. 

	Following this approach we will end up with customers who have no idea
why they are doing some tasks. Anyone can type in commands from a scripted
list. But the job of a System Manager is far more than that. Apparently we
consider "cookbook" system management enough. Would you want a "cookbook" type
of system manager running SUPER::? The biggest part of the System Managers job,
as I see it, is to make decisions. And unless we give them all the information 
how can the come to the correct conclusion. And if that is the case then the 
documentation does a fine job of explaining commands and qualifiers. With that 
approach what does our course offer?
	Basically there are three questions we need to be addressing:
What the task is, when would you do the task, how to do the task and why to 
do the task. With these new courses all we are doing is the what and how.
We have a duty not only to teach the student what they want to know,
but what they NEED to know.       


	Todd

    Topic 49 "VMS Curriculum Plan -- General Discussion" is the place for
    general discussion, so let's take it there. It's a bit late to discuss
    the basic premise of task-oriented training, but maybe we can fine-tune
    our definition of "task-oriented" now that instructors are having to
    put it in process.
    
    How much theory about queues we should include, discuss here. As I
    said, if something is missing it's always an option to add it in the
    next rev. if we need to.
    
    					Val

    If you create a studentguide based on VMS V5.5, you have to include the
    most necessary commands and qualifiers the student need to do his job
    well.
    So the new queue management commands have to be included in this
    chapter.
                                                                          
    Regards,
      Ed Janssen 

    > We will be teaching system managers from the cookbook perspective. 
    > Without the underlying theory, I wish them much good luck when
    > something doesn't go exactly, precisely right.  
    >
    > WE NEED TO TEACH THEM MORE THAN JUST THE COMMANDS!!!!!!!  WE NEED TO
    > TEACH THE "WHY" BEHIND THE COMMANDS.
    
    I agree with Greg, that we need to teach the commands and the "why" behind
    the commands. So also the new queue management commands for automatic
    failover off the queues. We teach the student system management also in
    a cluster environment, so they have to know the most necessary qualfiers
    for queue management and the reason of using them, because they can
    meet them in command procedures they use for their job.
    
    Regards,
      Ed Janssen 

>   QUEUE_MANAGER runs on only one node of a cluster, so if it's missing
>  from a listing then you can assume the listing is taken from a node
>  that's not running the queue manager.
    

I still maintain that the output display from $ SHOW SYSTEM should contain 
the QUEUE_MANAGER process:

1.	It's new.
2.	We're covering both VAXcluster and standalone environments.


A possible solution would be to have two examples:

1.	Add the QUEUE_MANAGER to the current display.
2.	In the second example, use SYSMAN and set the environment to include
	all nodes in the VAXcluster.  Then DO SHOW SYSTEM, so the students
	can easily see that the QUEUE_MANAGER will only appear on one system
	while JOB_CONTROL still appears on all systems.


				Susan

>    Is it to the instructor to complement the chapter with Version 5.5
>    theory?
    

Normally I would say it is always up to the instructor to complement, enhance,
etc. the material in any course.  It's what they call "value added."  However,
in this case I agree with the comments; this section is much too lean.  We do
need the specifics for V5.5 queue management.  A brief discussion of the theory
belongs here along with a diagram (a picture is worth 50 bizillion words here).

The best description of the new queue manager (the release notes kind of leave 
you with the impression that you just fell victim to double-talk) is in the 
DSA.  It shows the link between the processes (JOB_CONTROL and QUEUE_MANAGER) 
and the QUEUE_MANAGER as the sole process that accesses the queue file.  It also
describes failover in the VAXcluster and the purpose of the journal file and the
master file.

We still have to offer some theory even in a cookbook/task-oriented course.
And above all, we need the keystrokes....(so put in the specific command
examples).


				Susan

    page 3-6a- Could we have a detail discription of what is in these
    3 new files and why and how they are used?  In a cluster do we need
    to have all three of these in a common area?
                                              
    
    Chuck

    Many of the things I have found Susan has already stated.  He has
    some very good points.  Please follow them.
    
    	Also,
    
    		page 15  Because the queue names have been changed and
    
    		are no longer sys$print the last paraagraph in the
    	
    		lower right is totally not needed. Also the last comand
    
    		in each list needs a "/queue=" to be added.
    
    
    		Page 3-28-  This is NOT the order that pages would print
    		if you had them all turned on.
    
    			1. Job burst
    			2. Job flag
    			3. File burst
    			4. file Flag
    			5. the file contents
    			6. file trailer
    			7. job trailer
    
    		This was a bad scene.  "Why would they do it in the
    book this was????" asks the students.
    
    	page 3-47- Add Doller signs in front of the "!".  It may work
    the way it is but it is not good form. And again as in previous
    notes you force a symbol translation with a "'" in front and one
    in back.  Again it may work but is is not the proper form.  We
    teach them the proper ways and then do not do it our self.

    Sorry, Susan. I meant "She has some very good points."

>    Sorry, Susan. I meant "She has some very good points."

I didn't think anyone noticed :-)  Thanks!