Conference koolit::vms_curriculum

    
    	What is the cut-off date for review comments ?
    
    	Ron(who is just starting to review...)
    

    
    We pilot in August. Any comments that come in after about
    mid-July won't make the pilot materials. They could very well
    be input _after_ pilot though...I haven't seen the MTF on
    SYSNET I, but I would guess 'drop-dead' would be sometime late
    August....with review coming in _AFTER_ pilot having to be
    pretty 'monumental' to be included.
    
    M_
    

    Having just completed teaching SYSNET I, I ran into a situation where a
    number of students were expecting more material than offered for
    VAXcluster and Network Management.  Consequently their EXPECTATIONS
    were nor met.
    
    I offer the following MARKETING suggestion.  Refer to page 18 of the
    current "Digest" (Jan 92 - Jun 92).  Take a close look at the
    description for SYSNET I.  The use of the terms refering to VAXclusters
    and Networks are not misleading in the introduction.  However,  the
    highlighted area specifically mentions "VAXcluster System Management I"
    and "Network Management I".  If you read further you will find that
    VAXcluster System and Network Management skills are not mentioned in
    either the "Master These Skills" or "Detailed Outline" areas.
    
    Note also that SYSNET II does not refer to either VAXcluster System or
    Network Management.
    
    In view of this I recommend a choice of actions:
    
    1. Remove all reference to VAXcluster System Management and Network
    Management fron the "Digest", or
    
    2. Rename SYSNET I to "VMS for System Managers".  This would provide a
    complete set of "VMS for ..." courses.  Renaming of SYSNET II and III
    would be optional.

    
    Hi,
    
    Sometimes I feel like a broken record...[and before Gregg jumps in here
    and beats me to it...sometimes I look like one too...]
    
    Anyway...this is really a marketing question I guess...Andy or Bill...
    would you care to field that part of it?
    
    In the meantime...I will rehash the stated objectives of the SYSNET
    courses....just as a 'set piece'...the first one is for the NOVICE
    system and network manager...you don't expect novice 'anybody' to
    get much deeper than we go...not if they are REALLY novices. The
    second course covers daily operations...nothing fancy, nothing
    beyond day-to-day operations. Yes we all agree that more could go
    in there...but the question becomes what do you put in there and
    still manage to teach it in 5 days? There is a limit to how many
    hundreds of pages one can successfully teach from Monday to
    Friday. And SYSNET II gets into the more complicated stuff...begins
    to anyway.
    
    Having said that...[which everyone has heard until that are very
    tired of it...I know]...I think it is fair to say that we all are
    
    1) Aware that we could juggle these topics about fourteen other
    ways and still have some people [customers and instructors] not
    happy with them
    
    2) Terribly aware that registration people have got to be very
    sensitive to whom they are registering for what course...the course
    outlines are pretty specific...four levels deep...it is very
    clear what is and is not covered.
    
    3) That this is a problem. Beyond being aware and trying to make
    sure that everyone who needs to know...knows what is in the courses.
    there is little that course development can do.
    
    Andy...it's in your court.
    
    Mel

Sorry I haven't been able to reply before - I've been trying to fix some of the
issues...

This reply is intended to address the preceding replies in this note plus the
other similar ones on Programmer etc. I'll try to hit all the issues here, if I
miss any let me know and I'll backfill later. I'm not going to try to directly
address all the individual instances, but will try to cover everything in one
shot so you may need to think about the application to your specific input...

It seems to me that we have several problems to fix:

1. People getting on the wrong course

We're revisiting the training and materials that we provided to the registration
and sales folks to make sure that they're sufficient. All the specific instances
of misplacment are being investigated to determine the cause. It looks as if
they're teething troubles but we're watching very carefully. If you have other
instances in the US, please send them direct by mail to ESMAIL::TOWNE and
CC me (you can also post them if you wish).

2. Marketing Materials (Digest, Catalogues, Flyers etc)

We're going to rework all the materials in the light of the feedback we're
getting here - I agree with some of the points. In our zeal to make the courses
attractive we've maybe overstated some stuff. We'll try to ensure that there
is no possibilty of people being misled. In the meantime you can help by making
sure you go over the objectives and course description at the start of the
course.

The other issue here is caused by the level of detail that the Digest
descriptions allow - some items that show up in the general descriptions are not
sufficiently large to show up in the highest level of topics, which is all that
show in the Digest. The problem won't appear with the Catalogue. We'll try to
make the Digest stuff more internally consistent. We'll also look at removing
the references to other old courses as this seem to have to potential to
confuse people (which is the opposite of why they were included)

3. Course Titles


Thanks for the suggestions - however I don't think we can change the title again 
so soon. Ultimately I'd like to change the Sysnet titles to System and Network
NODE Management, but it will have to wait a while - at least till after we
remove the old courses, otherwise the confusion in the customer base will kill
us.


4. General Overall Issues:

- The restructuring is not yet complete - most of the topics that seem to be
missing at the moment will show up either in the Troubleshooting course or in
the 'specialist' VAXcluster, Security, Performance or Programmer II courses
later this year.

- The new curriculum takes a completely different approach to the subject
matter. We're trying to inculcate job-related skills and info in a phased
just-in-time fashion. This will, of necessity, tend to fragment the existing
material and some people will react against this - however it is our belief,
based on the Task Analysis that we did and on experience in Germany and field
inputs, that these will be in the minority, and the most of our customers will
be pleased with the new approach. 
As an example - it's true that you now have to take 3 classes to learn to
install VMS - the survey indicated clearly that this task is not carried out by
system managers until they are quite experienced, while installation of layered
products is important much earlier in their development. (Ref: System and
Network Management Job Analysis, Table 5 on Page 63) 

- There seems to be a misapprehension that a goal of the restructuring is to
lessen the total number of classes that someone has to take. This is not quite
right - the goal is to reduce the number that they take to GET STARTED, and we
have achieved this. The real goal is to decrease the number that they HAVE to
take, but to increase the number that they WANT TO and DO take. This is how we
will stay in business!!!!! 

- The other issue is the confusion as to what's happening with the old
curriculum, what's going away and when...

The idea is that we will eventually replace almost all the existing courses, and
that this will be complete by the end of next fiscal year (93). we will be doing
a Task Analysis for the Programmer audience, starting in February, and we'll
rework the Programmer piece once we have the results of that.

The existing 'back-end' system management courses (Performance, Security...)
will be replaced as soon as we can get them done - by the end of Q2 next fiscal
at the latest, in the meantime we'll keep them around for the people who've done
their 'basic training' and want to progress. 

The 2 that are causing the most confusion seem to be U&C II and Sysman II. 

The vast majority of the material in U&C II is all covered either in Programmer
I or in the Sysnet string, so it should go away very soon. We've defined
cross-over paths for eveyone who's taken U&C I and nothing else so there should
be little need for U&C II to survive long.

Syman II, on the other hand, will survive longer as we're recommending that
people who've done Sysman I and now want to progress should stick in the old
curriculum as the cross-over paths are too messy.



That's it for now.
                                          
Cheers,

Andy

    
    
    I taught sysnet I for the first time in Richmond last week.  The
    class went really well. But, on monday I had two people who had
    utilities and commands and system manager I.  A Digital Training
    consultant told them sysnet I was where they would want to start.
    Luckily they were local and went back to work.  The consultant
    who told them this was notified.
    
    Another girl also had utilities and commands, system arch., system
    manager I.  She called up and registered for sysnet I after taking
    those courses on the same day she registered for sysnetII and
    system manager II.  She has also had u and c II.  Here is a case
    where the registrars were not aware of whats going on with these
    classes.  She stayed in the class because she wanted the review
    andit worked out fine.
    
    My other six students were great. This as there fist class and I
    thought it went great.  
    
    We have to flag these people when they register and it sounds like
    you all are working on that problem.  That was my only delima last
    week.
    
    Wendy Mullenhoff
    Washington DC
    

    I wanted to take a moment and add my comments.  The feedback that I
    received in my first teach of SYSNET I was the same as Wendy's and
    Susan's (Santa Clara).  
    
    I had one student who had been a System Manager for 3 years and was
    currently working on a CAD/CAM system.  He brought with him a diagram
    of his data center and wanted to understand the complete networking
    layout.  After talking with him, we decided he needed to be in SYSNET
    III.  FORTUNATELY, he was local, that is if you call driving 2.5 hours
    local.  When you add up to and from time, this man lost almost a full
    day's work.
    
    Another student was not so accommodating.  He REFUSED to leave because
    registration told him he should take the FULL curriculum because they
    "really didn't know where he belonged".  I talked with him about his
    experience.  He should have been in SYSNET II BUT since CORPORATE
    registration told him he should be in this class he stayed.  
    
    He was TOTALLY bored all week.  When we introduced disk quota's, I
    finally hit on a topic that he did not know!!!  BUT he wanted me to
    teach all of diskquota's to the entire class, he REFUSED to stay for
    labs or on Friday.  I, of course, explained that the material he wanted
    was beyond the scope of this class and it was not fair to the other
    students to push them into such detail.  I told him that I would teach
    him all I knew about diskquota's on a one-on-one basis or if he was
    going to take SYSNET II, that they would teach it in there.  You
    guessed it, he said "that's what they all say."  Definately, a "can't
    win" situation.
    
    The other students in class (7 others) should have been there.  They
    got alot our of the course.  My only comment here is that I did switch
    the module on Adding Users to earlier in the week.  On Friday, everyone
    wants to leave and this topic was vital.
    
    From what I have seen in the notes files and memos going back and forth
    between managers and registration, there is definately a problem here
    and what instructors are hearing is that it is registration that is
    telling them wrong.  On the other hand, registration is saying that all
    of the registrars are trained and they are not telling customers wrong.
    
    We are in a vicious circle.  Let's hope for all of our sakes that this
    gets settled soon.
    
    Dee Sayers
    Dallas                                  

>    From what I have seen in the notes files and memos going back and forth
>    between managers and registration, there is definately a problem here
>    and what instructors are hearing is that it is registration that is
>    telling them wrong.  On the other hand, registration is saying that all
>    of the registrars are trained and they are not telling customers wrong.
>    
>    We are in a vicious circle.  Let's hope for all of our sakes that this
>    gets settled soon.

We HAVE to settle this soon.  I find it absolutely impossible to believe that
all of our customers are lying about what central registration is telling 
them.  I'm certainly not going to suggest it to them when they start griping
about it on Monday mornings.  Have we forgotten that the customer is why we
are and that the customer is "always right?"

I would like to suggest that the registrars start doing what one of our local
did years ago.  She would ask whether they met the pre-req's for a course.
If they elected to take a course without the pre-req's, she told them that she
would make a notation on the enrollment form to that affect so that if there 
were a problem later on, she would have a record of it.  She also made notes 
indicating that she had asked what classes they had previously taken.  She
accomplished two things:  customers tended to do the right thing when they
knew it would be documented and she had proof that she was doing her job.

Simple?  Yes!


			Susan

    This is my second teach of the new SYS/NET I course.  My first teach
    was filled with the wrong people.  My second teach is also.  Here are
    some specifics:
    
    I have 13 people in class.  (Had 14 one left)
    
    One person was furious that he had been told that even though he had
    mega years experience on the VAX via work and college (bachelors and
    masters), he HAD to take this course.  What he needs is SYSNET III.  
    I offered him a credit.  Did he accept?  NO. 
    Reason:  He is from out of town.  It would look bad for him to have
    spent all of this money to only turn around and go home.  He feels that
    while he is here that he might as well stay and get the certificate.
    
    Another person from a MAJOR oil company was furious for being told that
    he had to have this course after already having taken Utilities and
    Commands I, Utilities and Commands II and System Management I. 
    LUCKILY, we had another class running that he could be placed in. 
    Would he have left?  DEFINATELY NO!!!!  In his own words, "There is no
    place on an expense report for being put in a class by error."  (Read
    that Digital error.)
    
    Now for the WORST scenario....I have four people (their director is one
    of the four people) in class who just took VMS SKILLS FOR BASIC USERS
    last week!  I guess I do not have to say that the same exact materials
    are in both VMS SKILLS and SYSNET I.  They were told that they had to
    take ALL of the courses.  Now they get 3 days of review.  
    Would they leave?  No way!!!  Four people from out of town!  
    
    Ok, now this is 6 out of 14 that were very angry.  How many people out
    of the fourteen should have been in this course, how many really needed 
    it?  Actually only one person.  Ther rest had taken CBI courses and had work
    experience.    
    
    Our goals was to provide less courses and get people up to speed
    quickly.  Now they are not only taking more courses they are taking
    redundant courses.  
    
    Perhaps this is not the place to discuss this issue.  I placed this
    here because I thought more instructors would have access it it.  
    
    No matter how much some people deny that there is a registration
    problem, believe me I am here in class and there IS a registration
    problem.  This many customers do not lie.
    
    The very frustrating part is that we cannot make them leave, but we are
    made to take the very negative QA's because of the mistake.  They are
    here and they are going to take this out on someone.
    
    Well folks, lets hope that I can do something to WOW these people.  But
    then if I do that, that is going beyond the scope of the course and
    infringing on someone elses material.
    
    Where's Bob Hope when you need him???
    
    Dee
    

    I probably have the record this quarter for moving people out of class
    on Monday -- (maybe that is because I have the record number of Sysnet
    I&II teaches locally...)...
               
    First week of Sysnet I -- 2 were re-registered
    First week of Sysnet II -- 2 more re-registered
    First week of Operator - 4 re-registered
    Second week of Sysnet II -- all stayed (travel was a problem)
    Second week of Sysnet I - turned one away before she got seated this
    	morning (took U&C I & II from me -- recently).
    
    Does this mean all the others belong there?  No.  But I am making it
    very clear starting on Monday so it is an informed choice.  But this is
    a tired tap dance, and frankly puts us in a tough position.  They
    should have been informed BEFORE walking in the door. 
    
    irene

    
    I hear you. I hear you all.
    
    I can't do a d*** thing about it! And I just wanted you to
    know that it burns us also...and frustrates us...to have
    possibly _very good_ courses getting beaten on because
    SOMEONE puts the wrong students in the classroom.
    
    And I can't do anything but pound my head against the same
    wall you are pounding yours against.
    
    M--
    

    OK folks... We're still working for the same company with the same set
    of goals, customer satisfaction and company growth.  Call it flag
    waving if you wish.  I have been fully trained in System Management,
    old curriculum.  The decision was made to re-structure the VMS
    curriculum.  It was well known by the decision makers that this would
    create some level of confusion to the customers.  Well it's happened.
    I'm currently on assignment with Central Registration and have been 
    since October '91.  Each and every member of their registration team
    does their best to help place/advise/consult each customer to the best
    of their ability or advise them to speak with one of the Training
    Consultants in OFO.   Every Registrar in Central Registration has been
    trained on the content of the "VMS Mastery Series".  This does not make
    them systems managers, magician or VMS Specialists.  There are NO
    Crystal Balls,  so the best they can do is ask the customer to evaluate
    their own comfort levels and tell us where they need to be.  We do make
    suggestions based on the career paths the customer have told us but the
    customer has ownership beyond that.  
    
    I can speak for most of the Registrars.  I/we do offer to fax full
    course descriptions to any customer who sounds confused concerned or
    undecided.  We often make follow-up calls and know most of our larger
    customers on a first name basis.  We always treat them with courtesy
    and respect.   Simply said we do the best we can to provide accurate 
    information from which they must make their own informed decision.  It
    comes as no surprise there's an occasional mis-placed student, I don't
    have the numbers to present percentages, but my guess is we(DECys) are
    doing quite well...   (FLAME OFF)
    
    I would be receptive to any and all critques you as Instructors have.
    Along with those, please send me or post suggestions you may have to 
    improve on our joint success in this space.
    
    Regards
    Frank (SCARGO::FERREIRA)  dtn 264-6620
    Graduate System Management Training Program (SMTP) class #3
    

    re: .12
    
    Well, in the good old days, when the registration was handled in the
    training centers, a registrar could always call on an instructor to
    answer technical training questions.  We still occasionally found
    misplaced students; but, not like what is being reported in this
    notesfile.  The fact is that customers calling in are going to need
    technical advise that simply cannot be furnished by anyone other than
    people who teach the course(s) in question.  FAXing a course
    description?  These people are trying to do business with us!  They're
    spending money to learn our products!  Why are we making this a
    difficult exercise for them?  There are plenty of competing training
    establishments that will spend HOURS with the customers to ensure that
    they are getting what they need for their training dollars.  I
    understand that the author of .12 isn't to blame for the present
    arrangement, I understand that we all work for the same company, and I
    also understand that we, as a company, MUST become more profitable. 
    We're not going to do that by making it more difficult for people to
    select which of our products to buy, and we're not going to do that by
    making it more difficult to do business with us.  People buying these
    services need technical support that goes beyond someone looking at a
    curriculum chart and FAXing course descriptions.  Having taken the
    courses and TEACHING the courses are two very different things.
    
    Mark Thorne
    Chicago Training Center

    RE: .11
    
    Centralized Registration is aware of some things that you may not be. 
    Please call me.  I would be happy to discuss this with you.  I can be
    reached at DTN: 264-7000.
    
    Regards,
    Valerie Greenwald

    RE: .14
    
    Gee, since we in the field are the ones having to deal directly with
    the results of poor course advice to customers,  I'd love to know what
    it is that Centralized Registration knows that we don't.  Maybe you
    could share it with us here.
    
    Mark Thorne

  re: -.1 & -.2

  Agreed.  Please post anything relevant here.  I'd like to hear what else
  is 'known' to make these things run smoothly, but I don't get an answer
  when I call the number posted (after I get out of class -- maybe you are
  already gone for the day).

  $

Ditto.   Instructors on the West coast find it even more impossible to get 
through by phone.  Besides, I'm sure you really don't want a hundred 
instructors all trying to call at once.  I'm afraid we have a real gap between
the information the registrars have and the "on-the-block-experiences" of 
seasoned instructors.  As was noted earlier, when registration was handled 
locally, we could stop by the registration office and answer the registrars'
questions, but it is apparent that this type of resource is not available to
the central registration office nor is it available to their consultants.

So, anything that anyone can post here to provide us with insight into the 
problem could ultimately lead to one or more of us coming up with some viable
solutions.  What on earth do we have to lose?  We have to stop angering our
customers, else we won't have any left!

				Susan

PS. No one that I know of is trying to affix blame; we simply want to identify
the problems and brainstorm solutions.

    
    Let me share with you what is happening here. I welcome your response
    via notes or calling directly.  I can honestly say that Registation is
    doing everything possible to place people in the proper courses.  There
    are problems that are much greater than Registration i.e., the mass
    misinterpretation of course content and level from what seems to be a
    result of the write-ups in the Digest as well as even our Dec Sales
    people misunderstanding and misrepresenting the curriculum to our
    customers.  It is quite typical for a student to call and request a
    course and the following scenario exits.  Let's say the course is
    SysNet I.  Registsrar:  Do you realize this is an entry level course? 
    Student says yes.  Registrar: Have you taken Utilities and Commands. 
    Again, student says yes.  The Registrar now has to explain to the
    customer that this is not the appropriate course.  The student is
    usually baffled.  He did not percieve the course in that light from
    what the read.
    
    We are lucky if it's as simple as the scenario I described above: one
    student, one course.  It's easy enough to make the switch. 
    Unfortunately, more often than not, we are speaking to training
    coordinators.  Just the other day, I spoke to a coordinator who was
    ready to register about five students for courses that were entirely in
    the wrong order including overlapping courses.  Needless to say, he was
    quite frustrated that he misunderstood the write-ups to such a degree. 
    We had to rework the entire schedules.  I faxed approximately 15 pages
    of cours flow maps which he appreciated.  Unfortunately, it is not an
    exaggeration to say that customers are more frequently than not
    calling and wanting to register for the wrong courses and Registrars
    are continuously put in a position to "talk them out" of these courses. 
    Sometimes, believe it or not, they insist on taking the courses despite
    the recommendations.
    
    As you are aware, another problem that exists is that a Customer
    Service Rep does not have anyone to pass a call to that has technical
    expertise.  The best a Registrar can do is fax a description of the
    course to a customer or pass the call to a Sales Consultant.
    
    The kinds of efforts that we have put in place include having one of
    our Reps enroll in the entire mastery series.  We are filling the
    business gap by putting in place our own course adviser.  We have
    developed our own training for Registsrars which include small
    group training and one-on-one.  As I noted above, we are so concerned
    about the confusion regarding these courses that we not only ask if the
    student has met the prerequisites but we probe further with two or
    three additional questions.  Again, one of our dilemmas is that we
    often speak to the caller who is not the student himself.  Usually when
    we ask if the student has met their prereques, the caller is unsure but
    "believes" the student has.  Rather than accepting this we have now
    learned to tell him that we will hold on the line while he contacts
    the student or we will call the student directly but, for the students
    sake, we need to be sure that this is the right course.  However, even
    with these efforts there will still be some misplaced students.  The
    problem is much greater than Registration.
    
    I don't blame any of the instructors for their frustration in trying to
    teach a class with students who are inappropriately attending that
    class.  Please understand that Registsration is doing everything they
    can do to help assure that students are placed in the correct courses. 
    Behind the scenes, we have been actively interfacing with those who we
    have identified can provide the support and changes we need  so that
    students properly understand the curriculum and make the correct
    choices.  I cannot stress enough that we all share the same goal--we
    are committed to satisfying the student and providing them with the
    training they deserve.

    RE: .18
    
    	Thank you for replying in this forum.  I see you are facing the
    same kind of problems we faced when the registration effort was handled
    in the field.  I have dealt with the very scenarios you outlined in
    your note, as well as others.  Perhaps we need to provide an avenue
    between the instructors and the registrars that could supplement the
    support you are already putting into place.  You are welcome to call me
    with technical course questions in the areas of VMS, networking, or
    languages at DTN 474-5331.
    
    Mark Thorne
    Chicago Training Center

    Please discuss implementation issues such as registration in topic 122,
    so we can keep this topic specific to Sys/Net I. I've copied some of
    the last few replies to topic 122 for continuity. Thanks!
    
    					Val

    We're starting an error-correction pass on Sys/Net I through III.
    
    If you've found typos, spellos, inconsistencies, etc. in the final
    materials for Sys/Net I, please post them as replies to this note by
    Monday, June 1. If you've already posted comments, you can post a
    pointer to your previous note(s).
    
    A small favor we ask of you, please:  make your comments as specific as
    possible (for example, instead of telling us "this qualifier is
    misspelled," tell us "this qualifier should be IO instead of I/O.") To
    make this project feasible we are having our production editors do the
    bulk of the work, so your comments need to be intelligible to a
    nontechnical person.
    
    If you are pointing out something that needs additional research by a
    course developer, you can flag it as such and the editor will pass it
    along to one of us.	
    
    Thanks very much!
    
    					Val
    

Listed below are the corrections I would like to see made to 
Chapter/Module 1 of Sysnet I.  

If this is not what you are looking for, let me know and
I will not continue with the rest of the Chapters.  


xxx	VAXcluster management (taught in VAXcluster System Management)

  	Should be replaced with the name of the new curriculum name.
	Maybe Sysnet III and Sysnet IV(?)


1-7	Default:  DUA0:[SMITH]

	Change DUA0:  to a logical name such as DISK$USER1

	Place a note at the bottom of the page:

	NOTE:  The Default field is comprised of two separate
  	fields when adding an account in Authorize.  These 
	qualifiers are /device and /directory.  System Managers
	commonly use a concealed logical name in place of the 
	physical disk name.  Logical names will be discussed in
	more depth in Chapter 9 Customizing Your Working Environment.

1-13	Username: System  (is in two places.  Example 1-6 and 1-7.)

	Change the username to Smith
	Reason:  These are new users.  The system account has all
	privileges and some of these people are looking for ways to hack.
	Changing the system password involves letting every system manager
	know the new password.  This is just a nit, but to me this is like
	saying "Here is your pilots license but by the way, you don't know
	how to fly yet."

1-20	LOCK
	
	Put the maximum amount of characters that can be used for a
	password  (I think this is 6, for a DECserver 100, if it changes
	for later models, you might want to include this.)

1-22	Is confusing.  You connect to CD but response says 
	Session 1 to CD on node NEAT established.

	Instructors get into talking about service names tooooo early
	in the game.  Why not put.....Connect Neat

	Follow this patter throughout the whole page.  (C TIDY, etc.
	Beginners then get the concept and can understand alias' later on.


1-24	Number 2    Set Forward ^X

	Control X is used by VMS for clearing the typeahead buffer.
	Why not use    Set FORWARD ^F

1-26A	Put instructions for instructors on how to logout a port
	if someone forgets their password.

1-28	Username: System

	Change to Username:  Smith

Laboratory exercise for Chapter/Module 1

Page 17-3	Keep trying.....

		Instead say, try two more times.  What happens?

		Trying too many times will cause the person
		to become an intruder.  VERY frustrating for
		the new user.  I end up telling the ones that want
		to know how to delete an intruder out of the intruder
		database and then others feel overwhelmed.  If I just
		delete them myself, well you can guess this one,  
		EVERYONE wants to know how I did this.  Lose/lose situation.
		Too much too soon.

	
17-8		Connect CD  (again)

		Instead use CONNECT NEAT
			    CONNECT TIDY


Thanks for this opportunity.
    
    Regards,
    
    Dee Sayers
    Dallas
    

Here are some changes that I would like to see made for Chapter 2.
   None of these suggestions were meant to be taken personally so please 
    do not be offended by any of my comments.  :')
    
    
2-9   	"One command line can consist of up to 1024 characters."
	"Each element in a command must not exceed 255 characters."

	We have always taught that there can be a maximum of 
	1024 characters on a command line.  This command line
	is comprised of 4 segments of 256 characters each.

	In the VMS General Users Manual, it states that
	A single command line cannot exceed 256 characters.

	Farther on down the page, it states that Each element in
	a command line cannot exceed 255 characters and that
	the entire command line must not exceed 1024 characters after
	all symbols and lexical functions are converted to their values.

	Wouldn't it be clearer to mention this in the SG or at least on the
	instructor pages for new instructors.  (Programmers really get
	caught up on number of characters in a line.  Imagine that!!)

2-11	Watch out here...soapbox time.

	Take out Set broadcast/nomail
	Take out Set noverify
	Take out Type/nopage

	Why?  You can spend alot of time on broadcast messages.  This IMHO 
	(in my honest opinion) opens up a WHOLE can of worms.  The students
	want to know "what else can I turn off".  Woah!!!!!

	Set noverify....this doesn't make sense to them because
	they don't know what verify is.....get my drift????

	Type/nopage is the default.

	In this section, you could actually leave out the "NO" part.
	
	Question?  Should we teach the "no" part?  
	Answer?    Yes
	Question?  Where?
	Answer?    When we talk about messages.  We tell them about
			Facility
			Identification
			Severity
			Text

		or my made_for_Digital acronym  FIST

		I first tell my students to type in  $ THINK
	
		We tear this apart by section.

		I then tell my students that they can to a 

		$ SET MESSAGE/NOF/NOI/NOS/NOT

		I then tell them to type in $think


		They get no error message.  Does this mean that what they
		type in was correct?  NOT.  But is DOES show them that 
		the messages can be turned off......

		Why do I emphasize this?  Because I had a Digital employee
		who told me she knew everything that there was to know about
		VMS (she was in U&C I).  She further commented that she KNEW
		that if she typed something in and then got a $, that everything
		was perfect.  NOT!   I showed the entire class this JUST in 
		case one of their users ever typed in this command,  now they
		would know what to do.

		Ramble, ramble, ramble.......enough said.

2-12		Device_type PRO_Series.

		Change to Device_type:  VT300 or something along those lines

		This is also an EXCELLENT opportunity to tell them about
		UNKNOWN and the $ Set term/inquire command for Digital
		terminals.

2-13		A better time to bring up $ Set term/nobroadcast

2-16		Picky, Picky, Picky.......Why not put the one-stroke
		command F14 before the Ctrl/A, etc.

		You say they don't have Digital terminals and there is
		no F14 key????  Then let's get those sales reps in here.
		After all, we ARE teaching Digital products on Digital 
		equipment.  (told you it was picky)

2-17a		Nit.  I am so glad you gave everyone recognition for their
		efforts in editing and suggestions in putting this SG together
		but please tell us how to phonically pronounce some of these
		last names.  We are butchering them.

		WORK3:[PICCADACI]    PICK - ah - dock - see
				     PICK - ah - dockey
				     PICK - ah - dos -eeeee
				     Piecea - dos - eeee 

		Oh well, I guess you see what I mean.

2-18		How about Control W  to "wash"/refresh the screen.

		Also, might want to mention a note here about
		being careful in using one of these control 
		combinations when using your 
		LOCAL> SET FORWARD ^F
		command.  This can really mess up your DCL commands.

2-19		I mentioned the $ SET MESSAGE/NOF/NOI/NOS/NOT
		earlier in these comments.  See 2-11 above.

2-21		Almost perfect.....but how about putting in the WHOLE 
		command line since we are demonstrating the whole success
		message.  We have enough room on this page to expand.

%COPY-S-COPIED, WORK3:[USER]A.TXT;1 copied to WORK3:[USER]B.TXT;1 (1 block)

		Same for "I' message and "E" message, please expand these.

Exercises:	(can you tell that I like the exercises put after each
		module instead of at the end of the book?  Customers do to.	
		We get alot of commnets on the QA's about this.)

		Number 4.  Show users/full/output=users.list

		We didn't teach this.  IMHO, either put this in the
		material  (it is a good command they need to know) or 
		take it out of the exercises.


    

GETTING HELP
CHAPTER/MODULE 3

ADD-A-PAGE

One suggestion would be to place a page explaining how you can so straight
to a topic if you know the "path".

Example:   $ HELP PRINT EXAMPLES
           $ HELP LEXICAL F$GETQUI EXAMPLES

You could then show how to go back to the dollar-sign quickly by doing a
CTRL/Z.



LOVE the pictures on 3-11 and 3-12 showing the binder placket.

How about including a reference to the

VMS Software Documentation Catalog or maybe an excerpt from there.
It is an excellent reference tool, adds to sales, and is FREE from 
1-800-DIGITAL which is a number that (I hope) is not going to change.

16-11   Written Exercise

	I disagree that there should be no written exercise for
	this chapter/module.  How about a multiple choice:

	Match the definition on the right with
    	the reference on the left.
    
	Information line from the Master Index

	Login command procedure o (U) Files and Devices,
		2-8;   (U) Command Procedures, 1-9.

	
	Definition				Reference

	___ (U)					a. Page number in
						   Command Procedures
	___ Files and Devices  			   reference manual

	___ Login command procedure		b. A manual in the 
						   VMS Documentation
						   Set	

						c.  Topic looked
						    up in the Master
						    Index

	You probably get my drift here.  See the exercise on page 16-5
	and make it similar.  This might seem elementary.....it is.  But it
	is also imperative that they know WHERE to go to look.

Now on to Module 4.  Hope this helped.

Dee

    

    Since the first nine chapters of SYSNETI are part of the Operator
    course you may want to read comment 117.. I have written many
    lab exercisers that can be used in SYSNETI.
    
    Lynn White
    Washington, D.C.

>I took the time to type all of this. I hope someone, somewhere uses
>this.

Lynn,

I took the time, although I suppose you had someone else in mind (like someone
who could actually implement the changes!!!).

For the most part I agree with the comments you've made.  Comments for 
SYSNETI, chapter 1 are right on target.  Places where I especially agree
are noted below along with a few minor disagreements.

(Aside to the developers:  Just as a point of order:  why aren't examples 
created using $ SET HOST 0/LOG=meaningful_file_spec ?  Wouldn't a lot of 
technical typos be eliminated that way?)

>9-7	Make the device something like DUA1: and get rid of WORK1:
>	This causes too much confusion.
>
>12-11	Does anyone set up a logical with the ALLOCATE command.  This
	course is to be kept simple.  This is very confusing.  Why
	set up a logical and than another logical?

I disagree here.  Logical name usage should be encouraged from day one.  
However, I wouldn't mind seeing WORK1 replaced with USER_DISK or something
else more meaningful.  As for ALLOCATE, I've always taught it using the
logical MYTAPE or MYDISK and emphasized the purpose of this logical over 
the one created for a disk at MOUNT.  This is an area of confusion that
I believe we are here to help clear up for them.

>14-6	Make the ACCOUNT field and the Group identifier the same.  They
>	usually are and it takes only one customer who has had time
>	on the system to really open a can of worms and ask 1) how did
>	they get different  2) how do I make them the same?

YES, YES, YES!!!  This has long been an irritant!!!!

>9-7	Just a thought. Since this is the first time students are seeing
>	logicals don't use a logical for the device name.  That is instead
>	of using WORK1: use DUA2:  

See comments above re. logicals.

>15-11	Since this course is to include cluster information all the
>	shutdown options should be listed.
>
>	They are:
>	REMOVE_NODE
>	CLUSTER_SHUTDOWN
>	REBOOT_CHECK
>	SAVE_FEEDBACK

Don't forget to include DISABLE AUTOSTART.

>16-47	Change Question 2 to read "A system process that performs system
>	wide queue management and control tasks.  (We will no longer talk
>	about JOB_CONTROL here.)

We shouldn't completely exclude the JOB_CONTROL process since it is still 
involved in Queue Management.  Also the wording still needs work since what
we're looking for is the VAXcluster-wide queue manager process (not just 
system-wide).

Since I've never taught this course (as most of you already know, I'm the 
SYSNET3 victim out here), my comments may not be on the money.  However,
I do know what I need them to know later and we're not there yet.....

			Susan

These comments are from 49.91 -- I'm copying them here so they'll be found.

Comments for SYSNETI

1-9	Please mention that this is for the seldom used Hardwired
	terminal.

1-10	Why not tell the manager about the Dictionary and History
	file up front.  When they try to change their password they
	see it right away.

1-17	Why do you have a service that is a cluster alias?  What
	back ground do they have on what this is?

1-22	Bullet number 4 always causes a discussion.  "I connect to
	CD yet it tells me I am connected to TIDY. WHY?"

1-26	How do you unlock a terminal for a person who forgets? This
	is always asked.

3-6	Either increase the list or use a command that is listed.  The
	customer at the TOPIC prompt types in SHOW yet it isn't listed.
	The same thing is true with SYSTEM.  For a beginning user this
	is very confusing.

5-18  	You may want to include the GET FILE command.  They always
	ask is there anyway not to have the two files in the same buffer.

6-27	You start with 17 files, subtract 6 and have 10 left.  The
	mathematics is incorrect.

8-14	At the bottom of this page Access is mispelled.

9-6	In Table 9-2 you need to add the qualifier /SYSTEM to DEFINE.

9-7	Make the device something like DUA1: and get rid of WORK1:
	This causes too much confusion.

9-18	The third dash is NOT true.

10-36	REMOVE this page completely.  Hold SYSMAN off until later.

10-41	If this course is for the inexperienced VMS user get rid of this
	page too! They should not even be thinking about changing the
	protection on system files/directories.

11-3	The first objective is wrong.... It should be hardware environment
	instead of console system.

12-11	Does anyone set up a logical with the ALLOCATE command.  This
	course is to be kept simple.  This is very confusing.  Why
	set up a logical and than another logical?

12-17	The format for this page should be corrected. The right column is
	too narrow.

12-27	Too little information for the Backup Utility.  Why not included
	how to restore an image backup?

13-5	Correct the last file name to:
	SYS$QUEUE_MANAGER.QMAN$JOURNAL

14-6	Make the ACCOUNT field and the Group identifier the same.  They
	usually are and it takes only one customer who has had time
	on the system to really open a can of worms and ask 1) how did
	they get different  2) how do I make them the same?

14-16   Include a copy of DELTREE.COM

15-7	You need to add the node ZEUS to the SHOW NETWORK display.



From a previous note that may not have been read.  

Here are some errors I found in teaching the new SYSNETI course.

Page
2-18	Two typos
        "ther curser" should be "the cursor"

4-11	The device name starts out as $1$DUA1: and then changes
	to VMS$COM  -  make the devices all the same.

6-27	You actually deleted 7 files.  The system message says 6.

6-33	The file names do not match. The displays are LISTA.DAT and LISTB.DAT
	but the last line showing the command list LIST1.DAT and LIST2.DAT

8-14	In the last display the ACE should have "PERSONNEL,ACCESS"
	not "ASSCESS"

9-6	In the table 9-2 the DEFINE needs the qualifier /SYSTEM.

9-7	Just a thought. Since this is the first time students are seeing
	logicals don't use a logical for the device name.  That is instead
	of using WORK1: use DUA2:  

11-3	Objective - The first bullet should read "Describe the different
	components of the hardware environment" not the "console system".

11-12	Typo - Use the the

13-5	The file name is spelled incorrectly, it should be
	SYS$QUEUE_MANAGER.QMAN$JOURNAL

13-5a	Same as above

13-14	Last sentence has a typo  -  commad should be command.

13-15	DELETE/ENTRY was not talked about in this chapter so you should
	remove it from the summary.

15-7	"ZEUS" should be listed in the display since it is the
	nearest area router.

15-11	Since this course is to include cluster information all the
	shutdown options should be listed.

	They are:
	REMOVE_NODE
	CLUSTER_SHUTDOWN
	REBOOT_CHECK
	SAVE_FEEDBACK

16-47	Change Question 2 to read "A system process that performs system
	wide queue management and control tasks.  (We will no longer talk
	about JOB_CONTROL here.)

	Also the word display is spelled disp[ay.

16-48	Incorrect answer to question #2. It should be Queue_manager.

17-50	Directions say to delete the [.TEST] directory but in the solutions
	you have [.MEMO]*.*;*

18-27	b. Should read "Listing messages you have "received."
	Also correct the question part.



Lynn White
Washington, D.C.
    

    Just to let you all know I DO still have a sense of humor about this, I
    mention to my students who also have to write documentation or
    procedures, that learning to use the DCL subprocess from within TPU is
    a great way to create real displays, with proper alignment and
    meaningful information...and if they ask why the UAF records are
    off by a character in the examples, I just tell them that the example
    has been around since before we all learned TPU so well....
    
      

         This note is for SYSNET I.

General comments about the course first the I will go through page by
page for specifics.

	1. The course has too much material for lecture.  In an
effort to cut this down I suggest:

		a.  Rename the string.  We cannot start changing anything
		    until that is done.  There have been good suggestions
		    in previous notes for names.  I think it important that
		    the string have the same name with appro. # (I,II,II,IV).
		    The student has to know what they are signing up for.  
		    The name alone has caused QA's to fail.  The previous 
		    note that listed the student's comments is a good cross 
		    section of the comments we have been getting here in D.C.

		b.  Remove module 3.  Add help to module 2 and mention
		    that there is also a doc set to give even more
		    detail about VMS and drop the info about the docset.

		c.  There is a lot in modules 10 and 11 that does not
		    need to be there and/or is redundant with previous
		    material.  So, lets combine 10 and 11 and keep it
		    no larger than the largest of the two.  By doing
		    this we make the two modules more interesting and
		    can cut about an hour to an hour and a half off the 
		    course.

		d.  Swap module 13 and 14.  I do when I teach for timing
		    and I want to do 14 on Thursday so that the students
		    can create accounts and in general play with Authorize.
		    13 and 15 are good for the last day time wise and also
		    there is not much we can have them do in lab for those
		    two modules.

		e.  Some of my students have said that module 12 should be
		    moved to the next course.  I think it is fine where it
		    is.  I have no problem with mod 12 to 15 except the
		    nits I'll list later.  I would change the book list
		    in a way that should help teaching this course.  "Hardware
		    operations Guide for VMS Systems" is an excellent book
		    but I do not refer to it at all in this course.  It
		    is therefore a neutral issue.  NOT REALLY, because
		    many students read it and say "my system is not here."
		    "Why have you left it out?"  "Is it not an important
		    system?"  "Where can I find this same kind of information
		    for my system?"  Can we drop this book from the book
		    list and add the System Managers manual.  I have a great
		    need to supplement the training with the SM Manual, and the
		    students can also look up the utilities they need to
		    know about.  This is a much more useful book to supple-
		    ment the last four chapters.  Without it here it is some-
		    times difficult to maneuver these chapters do to lack of 
		    reference material.

		f.  I could be wrong on this one but this is my wish
		    and I would like to here what others think:

			I would like in all there courses, after we
			have taught the topic clearly, not then to 
			have to go through "common errors encountered".
			I have not had one instance where this has,
			in my opinion, been helpful.  If this is needed put
			it in the text with the presentation and you
			are talking about it then, not later.  I do not think
			it helps because most of us do the "don'ts" as we talk
		        about the subject matter.  Put them on the instructor
			pages for those that are new to the info.

		g.  Comment: I would still like to cut at least 1 more
		    hour off of the first 2 days.  But I've cut all I
		    can think of.  

Now for specific page by page recommendations.

	Course Goals should be more specific like in other courses.
				***
	Course none goals and not always right when listing where
	the topic is taught.

		"Creating new DCL commands, help files, and error
	messages (mentioned in this course, but covered in detail in
	VMS System and Network Management II)"

		I do not think this is mentioned here or taught in II.	


		"Troubleshooting error conditions (taught in VMS System
	and Network Management II)"

		Again I do not think so.

		"The Files-11 Structure of disk and tape volumes (discussed
	in VMS System and Network Management II)"

		I Thought Files-11 was only for disks and is taught in
	VMS System and Network Management III
				***


Page 1-6  First bullet/First paragraph

		Add the sentence "This file is in the Sys$system area and
				 is called SYSUAF.DAT."

PAGE 1-7  Put a couple flags in this example.

Page 1-9  Extend the title to "Steps for logging in to a hardwire terminal"

Page 1-17 There is no need to use alias's here.  Student's do not under-
	  stand this and this is too early to be talking about it now.
		(modify 1-18 too)

Page 1-20 Add the command "set preference" to this list.

Page 1-22 Fix alias here by having user connect to system directly

Page 1-27/28  Add that they can do "set host/log 0"  to log into
	      the same system and log all you do.  Good to do if
	      you need to capture on hardcopy some results that
	      are difficult to capture.

Page 2-9  Bullet 6-        $ SHOW -
			   _$ TIME

	gets a laugh or confusion as to what we are doing here.
	We need a LARGER command here to show a real use for
	the Hyphen.

	Move bullet 7 up after bullet 2 or 3.

Page 2-11 Table 2-4 The command "Type/nopage filename.type" is not
		    as good example because /nopage is the default
		    and no one would ever have a need to type it.
		    A better example would be "set terminal
		    /NONUMERIC".

Page 3-6 In bullet 3 "system" not one of the choices in bullet 2.
	 Therefore no reason to show example.  Have choice in 3
	 be in list in 2.

Page 3-8 to 3-14  Drop this except to mention we have a Doc set.

Page 4-19  Table 4-6    The contents of this table is confusing.
			We are trying to teach proper form for 
			commands and file specs.  Here they leave
			out sections of the file spec: the name.
			I know this works but should not be shown
			this early.  I would like to see an "*"
			here and any other place in this course that
			this has been done.   

	NOTE: This is where I end the first day. (15:50)

Page 5-3 Objectives- Change "move around the document" to
			    "move around within the document"

Module 5 EVE editor    I add 3 commands to this chapter.

	"BUFFER" to bring back a buffer the is now in the editor
		but in the background.

	"GET FILE" to get a file and put it in a buffer by itself.

	"DEFINE KEY"  I know this is not necessary but it is great
			to show windows which is also missing from
			this chapter and it is the greatest feature
			of eve.  I have them define the "1" key as
			"ONE WINDOW",  the "2" key as "TWO WINDOWS"
			and the "0" key as "OTHER" and they love
			the result.

Page 5-17	I would move help earlier in the chapter.

Page 6-3    Objectives.

		next to last bullet should read:

	"Use the SEARCH command to find character strings in files."

		The last bullet should read:

	"Use the DIFFERENCE command to list differences between files."


mod. 6  In this chapter also keep form of commands and file specs.

Page 6-22 Second bullet should read:

	The output-file-spec may contain a different directory name,
	but it must not specify a different disk, because this command
	only changes the name in the file header and does not actually
	move the contents of the file.

Page 6-27  There are 7 files deleted here--change the number in center
	of page.

Chapter 6-Difference command.  Better examples would be nice.  These are
	unclear and hard to see.

Chapter 7 is done well now that much of mail has been put in the
	appendix.
Page 8-3 Objectives:

	I would have:

		control and display file protection.

		use UIC protection and ACL protection where appropriate.

		erase the contents of a file while deleting or purging.

	I would take out the last objective about backup.  It is covered
later in another module.

Page 8-6  Bullet 1 Insert between 2 and 3 hyphen:

		A UIC member of 177777 (octal) represents the member
	number for the group and cannot be used for an individual user.

Page 8-6 Bullet 2

	I would add:

		- The UIC shows the ownership of the file.
		- The protection code shows what a user is allowed
		  to do with that file.

Page 8-14 Add acl protection to the example 8-3 so the student can relate
to where it is keep.

Page 8-14 Spell access right (in example at bottom)

Page 8-17 I do not like this kind of info but the center and bottom of
the page make it worthwhile.

Page 8-18 The qualifier is "/ERASE_ON_DELETE" and should be so stated.

Page 8-19 Drop bullet 4.  This was not talked about here.

Page 9-6  The flow should be:

		Table 9-1 as is.

		Then a discussion that there are atleast 4 tables
		your logical names can go into.

			Process, job, group and system.

		explain each and the search order then explain that
		group  needs grpnam privilege and continue with sentence
	      	below table 9-1 and then table 9-2.

NOTE: I stop at page 9-17 on day 2 at 15:15


Page 9-18  Under "Types of Symbols" bullet 1 hyphen 3 is totally wrong.
		I correct it is class by changing the word "not" to
		"NOW" and tell them it was a typo.

	After page 20 I think we should add the chart from UC I that
	Shows where symbols get decoded.  We need this because many think
	we can just put a symbol anywhere and it gets decoded automatically.
	We need to tell them here.

Page 9-24 Add the qualifier "/Lock"  They see it on page 9-26 and always
someone asks what it is.

Page 9-26  Add the "set state" command

Page 9-29  Remove this page.

Page 9-32 In rules add  Bullet 5  "Labels must be one word with no spaces
	followed directly by a ":"

To chapter 9 I would add the these commands:   Write sys$output
					       Inquire
					       IF/THEN
                                               GOTO

With this they can write command procedures much more extensive than
login.com and can go away from this course with a useful knowledge.


This concludes my review of modules 1 - 9.  This can relate to all 4
first courses for the strings.  My next note will include modules
10-15 for sysnet I.
    

         This is a continuation of my last note.  I will try to keep this one
on module 10 and 11.  My previous suggestion was to make both into
one module.  

Page 10-19 Should follow page 10-16.

I do not believe pages 10-20, 10-21 and 10-22 are needed here.  It is nice
to know info but does not flow and is not needed.  The following process
information is needed.(starting on page 10-23)

Page 10-29  I do not like the title of this page.  How about

		"VMS commands to look at and modify processes"

Page 10-30 You could put page 30 examples at the bottom of page
	10-29 if you took out the login usernames. Dropped note
	one and note 4.

Page 10-36 Should be removed.  It gives no viable info and leads into
	Other discussions that do not belong here.

Pages 11-5 to 11-9 Should be moved to Module 10 between pages 10-5 and
10-6.  This way we can talk about what is in one node before we talk
about what is in one tightly-coupled node, cluster or network.  

Pages 11-10 to 11-12 Should follow Page 10-35.  This is good for flow.

Pages 11-13 and 11-14 Though good info should be removed from here.
	This should be added to a later course.  It is too much for the
	beginner to be able to do a good Crash Dump Analysis.  Usually
	this is done by DEC remote support (software) or very experienced
	system programmers.

Page 11-15  The note:  Field Service in general does not want the Customer
	to be running Diags.  A better reason not to delete them is that
	Remote Support can provide some help by running some programs 
	before the engineer arrives.

Page 11-15 Change "unless you need disk space" to "unless you desperately 
	need disk space"

Add pages 11-15 to 11-19  to module 10 prior to page 10-37.

I end day 3  at 16:00 on page 11-19.

Well I just made one LARGE module without cutting a who lot.  The info
should flow better in the order it is in with the above changes.  There-
fore speed things up a little better. I had hoped to cut about 20 pages
from the 2 chapters and reorganize what's left into 1.  I was unsuccessful
in cutting pages.  Only cut 6 pages that had actual data on it.  The rest
needs to be taught somewhere and it may as well be here.  I still think
going to one module will help a little with the above re-ordering.  Wish
I could have done better.  

Chuck

         This note is to comment on Sysnet I modules 12-15.

Pages 12-5 to 12-8  are not needed in this module.  This info should be
in module 10 (or 11).  Page 12-5 & 6 when talking about peripheral devices.
Seven and 8 are already talked about in module 10 and can be deleted here.

Page 12-11 Example 12-1
	
	Bullet 3 and its response and then bullet 4 have no meaning here.

	The obvious need here was to do an "Analyze/media/repair" however
	the "analyze" was left out.  The above command should be put in
	or the commands at bullet 3 & 4 should be removed.  I recommend
	removing the 2 bullets do to the fact that dua2 is probably
	a DSA disk and should not have analyze performed on it.

Page 12-12  Fix this page accordingly with what ever you do with
	page 12-11.

This is a response to an earlier note about setting up a logical with
the ALLOCATE command.  WE can do it EITHER at the allocate or the
mount.  I prefer to do it at the allocate and not do it on the mount,
especially in command procedures when you do not know what device
was given you on the allocate.  Many people do not use the allocate
command at all and must, if they are going to use a logical name,
set it up on the mount.  This is a dangerous short cut though because
someone can get to your media before you do if you physically load
it then mount.  Therefore I think page 11 is O.K. as far as the
allocate is concerned.

Page 12-22 should be prior to page 12-15 

I would not have a problem if this module up to page 22 was moved to
sysnet II and melded into the disk chapter there.  I would keep backup
here and add the qualifiers and show how incremental backup works.

Page 12-26  Needs to be here but need the qualifiers too.  They want
examples and which qualifier does this or that.  We do not have them here
and we do not have the System Management Guide as a hand out to look them
up.

Page 12-29  Mention to book the stand alone backup kit where it can be
found.  One place is syse on the system disk or on an other disk or tape.

I teach these modules in order except I move module 14 after 12 so that
the students can have time to play in lab with Authorize.

Page 14-3  Remove the last objective about "communicate".

Page 14-6  Anyplace in any of our courses that we see a user profile
	in our courses please make the account name agree with the 
	member name in the UIC.  It causes no end to questions and
	confused students and other topics and other questions if it 
	is as shown here.

Page 14-12 Add the list of flags for /flags. (at least some)

Page 14-13 Show the form for the rang at least once.

	/ACCESS=( primary, 08-16, secondary, 00-23)

NOTE: I end day 4 with page 14-19  at 14:10

Page 13-13  Should not "stop/abort and Stop/requeue" be:
		
		"stop/queue/abort and Stop/queue/requeue"

In chapter 13 I would add the "Init" command.  This is one of those
incomplete thoughts.  We show how to "be an operator" but not how 
to set up a queue.

In chapter 13 we also do not mention the "Assign/Merge" command
	or the fact that a logical queue exists.

Page 15-6  I do not believe that sylogin.com belongs here when we are 
talking about bringing the system up.

Page 15-16  Add at bottom of page:

		To do an emergency Shutdown from the console:

			>>> @crash

		brings the system down as above.  The only difference
		is that if auto reboot is enabled the system WILL 
		reboot.


NOTE: I end on page 15-17 about 11:30 on the last day.
    

    re 51.30 -- see 49.107.

> re 51.30 -- see 49.107

Also see 51.29 (why use indirect referencing)?

			;-)

    I know this is passed the deadline but I was out of town. So if it's
    not late here is my input.
    
    
1-7	This being the USER portion of the course this page should 
	be taken out since USERS cannot look at the UAF the previous
	page is sufficient at this time.

1-24	Example 1-14  CTRL/X is used by VMS and should not be used
	as a forward switch.

1-26	How do you unlock a terminal for a person who forgets? This
	is always asked.

2-8     The qualifiers should be broken down into three types:
	 COMMAND QUALIFIERS
	 POSITIONAL QUALIFIERS
	 KEYWORD or PARAMETER QUALIFIERS
	the way it was done in the old U&C I page 2-12
	
2-9     Bullet eigth should say "You can abbreviate any command,qualifier
	and KEYWORDS..."

2-23	Table should also have CTRL/W and CTRL/Z

3-8 to 3-14  Drop this except to mention we have a Doc set.

4-16    Fourth bullet, why mention that you can separate file specs
	with "+". It just creates confusion about the difference between
	using "," vs "+" and about when to use each. Take it out.

4-11    Example 4-3. The list of files in the level1 directory should
	include the level2 directory files.  EQUIP.DIR;1
					     EXPENSES.DIR;1
					     MAIL.DIR;1
					     MINUTES.DIR;1 

5-18  	Include GET FILE command.  
        Also if we want our customers to believe EVE is a good text
	editor we need to teach them more features. With what's in 
        this chapter they are not very impressed, I always give them 
	a handout and cover  DEFINING KEYS
			     MULTIPLE BUFFERS
			     WINDOWS 

8-15    Example 8-4 shows the protection of the directory for WORLD to
	be RE, this is not what VMS gives by default, it should be E.

9-6     Talking about the SYStem table is not enough, they need to know
        about all 4 tables (Process, job, group and system).
	Explain each and the search order then explain that group  needs 
        GRPNAM privilege.

9-18    Under "Types of Symbols" bullet 1 hyphen 3 is totally wrong.

9-32    Under GUIDELINES third bullet, should say "use blank COMMENT
	lines" instead of "blank COMMAND lines". It is not efficient
	to use blank command lines since the system must read the line 
        to find out nothing follows the $.
	Example 9-17 should also be change accordingly using $! instead
	of just $.

9-35    Change example per note for page 9-32.

10-19   For GROWTH POTENTIAL it should say GREAT under VAXcluster to 
	since it is not as great as for Network.

10-20   Pages 10-20 thru 10-22 are not needed here.  

10-29   Title does not represent the content of the page.

10-36	REMOVE this page completely.  

12-13   In the top section of table 12-1 the example allocates DR but the
	explanations below says drive type DU.  They should match.
 
12-26   Add a couple of qualifiers as examples.

12-29   Some explaination on how to boot standalone backup kit is needed.

14-3    Remove the last objective "Communicate with system users and operators".
        this subject was moved to chapter 7.

15-16   Since page 15-9 mentions emergency shutdown from CCL, add information
        on how to do it and what happens.

17-89   This page needs to be moved to fit after page 17-46 since this is 
	a lab supporting topics on communication covered in chapter 7.
	Table of content should be modified accordingly.