| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
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| 65.1 | RE: .0 | AROLED::PARKER | | Wed Apr 02 1997 15:58 | 27 |
| Jesus also said, "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither
cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their
feet, and turn again and rend you. Ask, and it shall be given you;
seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For
every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to
him that knocketh it shall be opened." (Mt.7:6-8, KJV)
Jesus said in charging His apostles, "go, preach, The kingdom of heaven
is at hand...freely ye have received, freely give. And in whatsoever
city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there
abide till ye go thence. And when ye come into an house, salute it. And
if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not
worthy, let your peace return to you. And whosoever shall not receive
you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city,
shake off the dust of your feet.
"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye
therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
"But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for
verily I say unto you, Ye shall not finish in the cities of Israel,
till the Son of man be come. The disciple is not above his master, nor
the servant above his lord." (Mt.10:7-16)
I believe we are to be wise (in terms of being abused) and harmless (in
terms of abusing). The Holy Spirit gives us discernment around staying
or fleeing.
|
| 65.2 | Pondering it All | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Wed Apr 02 1997 16:47 | 2 |
| Whew! Those 2 notes were a lot to chew on. /me takes out stick of gum
and starts perpetual chewing.
|
| 65.3 | | PAULKM::WEISS | To speak the Truth, you must first live it | Wed Apr 02 1997 16:54 | 3 |
| Very interesting, Wayne. I've never pondered that direction before....
Paul
|
| 65.4 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Wed Apr 02 1997 17:03 | 9 |
| :-) I do recall that one of the very first notes I ever posted in this
conference said something like this.
Do you ever feel like you have positioned yourself in front of a loaded
canon and you don't have the sense to move out of the way?
Jill
|
| 65.5 | cannon | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Give the world a smile each day | Wed Apr 02 1997 17:09 | 3 |
|
|
| 65.6 | | SMARTT::JENNISON | And baby makes five | Wed Apr 02 1997 17:12 | 4 |
|
maybe Jill was referring to the Canons !
|
| 65.7 | | ALFSS1::BENSONA | Eternal Weltanschauung | Wed Apr 02 1997 17:12 | 194 |
| >There's been a thought running around in my head for the past week or so. It
>was really brought on by seeing a situation in a friend's life - she has
>treated a person in her life with agape love for years, and the result has
>been that the other person now has the expectation that he can treat her
>terribly one day, and expect to be totally forgiven the next. But it crops
>up in all sorts of situations that many of us face.
Agape love, in my opinion, is simply too broad a term too loosely used
to be self-evident in its meaning or application. There's plenty of
room to be wrong in our response to life based on a misunderstanding of
many things, especially "agape love". Many times, "agape love" is
preceived to be "suffering the sinful actions of another in silence".
I'm quite sure this is not what it means. Similarly, there's only
three situations in which consistent maltreatment from another could be
expected to continue: at work; in the family; and in the local
congregation.
>We've all heard Jesus's call, that our response toward those who treat us
>wrongly is to respond in love - and all the examples that Jesus gives are of
>'overcoming evil with good.' His examples are always "If someone takes your
>cloak, give them your tunic," "If you are owned as a slave by a hateful
>master, serve him as you would serve Christ."
That's right.
>There's a very real problem that we can identify - what if the person we are
>treating so lovingly doesn't ever get it? It is easy for us to say "How
>wonderful, isn't agape love a wonderful thing?" about the situation where
>someone takes your cloak, you lovingly give them your tunic, and they
>suddenly look in your eyes, break down in tears over the love you are showing
>them, and change their ways. But it doesn't always work that way, in fact it
>very seldom works that way. Usually they just take the tunic, perhaps a bit
>shocked that you offered it, but without further comment. Worst case - and
>sadly all too common - they will take the tunic, and then come to believe,
>since you responded to them so lovingly, that their behavior is right and
>good, and they will continue to expect that behavior from you and others.
I think you are describing a very limited view of "agape love". The
love of God does not cower before sin but aggressively responds to it.
How did Christ respond to those who resisted and antagonised him? Was
it always to suffer in silence? What instructions did the Apostles
give for dealing with sinners and saints alike? In what on-going
situation would a person consistently not be able to explain what sinful
behavior is and what God requires? The idea that "turning the other
cheek" is the end of our response to evil, is wrong.
>This is a really serious question for me. What often happens is that a
>person is trained, by another's loving and forgiving nature, that they can
>behave like an absolute buffoon and the other will keep responding to them in
>love. They wrongfully then assume that their behavior is OK, despite any
>verbal protestations. They don't hear the words, they only hear the actions:
>The other keeps responding to them in love, therefore what they are doing
>must OK. And there is often every indication that so long as the other
>continues to treat them that way, they will never change their behavior.
I'm not so sure that a person is trained to take advantage of another's
loving nature. And I don't think that because someone is forgiven
frequently that he thinks his behavior is okay. Verbal protests and
instructions are heard if not immediately acted upon. And we're always
too eager to project today's behavior into eternity. For example, if
anyone were to look at me years ago, in the heydey of my sinfulness,
they would not believe that I would change. But God's power is great,
greater than our perception of His power.
>What are we to do in such a situation? There are all sorts of reasons for us
>NOT to continue to 'turn the other cheek,' and not all of those reasons are
>self-focused.
>I'm really trying to figure out an answer to this one, and it has a HUGE
>effect on my life. You know how I sometimes say "If the answer to this
>question won't change how I live, then I'm not going to think much about it?"
>Well, the answer to this question has a PROFOUND effect on how I live, so it
>deserves as much thought as possible.
The idea that "turning the other cheek" is the last word in response to
evil and injustice is simply wrong.
>The first thing I want to be sure of is this:
> "See to that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive
> philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of
> this world, rather than on Christ." Col 2:8
>Because one thing is sure and that is that the world's view of this whole
>subject is VERY clear: "Look out for number 1!" "If you don't take care of
>yourself, who will?" "Well, you don't have to be a DOORMAT!" "You need to
>stand up for your self!" "Do what's best for YOU!!"
It's easy, in our evangelical malaise, to draw oversimplified
conclusions such as if I don't turn the other cheek, I'm looking out
for number one or doing what's best for me. This reasoning will not
answer your questions.
>Then there's the really difficult question: What about the people who are
>trying to do this and are just weighed down with guilt over what they are
>'expected' to do, but have no joy in doing it and are being heavily taken
>advantage of by the person(s) they are 'loving'? What if they've been trying
>to do this for years, and it just seems to keep getting worse? What if
>they're so weary of turning the other cheek - cheeks that have long since had
>all the skin slapped off of them and are just raw meat now - that the thought
>of turning their head again for another slap makes them just want to scream?
>What about when they start to believe they deserve no better treatment?
This person is clearly in trouble. They may have misunderstood the
whole concept.
>And there reasons that are about the other person, too. By not confronting
>other people with their wrong attitudes, we can actually harm THEM. We have
>all known people who have been harmed by always getting their way, when
>people around them would not stand up to them and hold them accountable for
>their actions.
Isn't this the contradiction I allude to - in turning the other cheek
one cannot hold another accountable?
>I have a personal example of this that I've mentioned before, in my
>grandparents. My grandfather exhibited limitless agape love towards my
>grandmother, and the effect was that it simply trained her to be a monster.
>She never, in 50 years, figured out that she could respond in love to his
>continual loving of her. She treated him worse than I'd treat a dog for 50
>years, and she spent the whole time thinking he was the problem and was
>mistreating her and that everything she did was justified. My *grandfather*
>received more of the fruits of the Spirit than anyone I've known as a result
>of his limitless loving, but the truth is that others around him paid for it.
>Not only was my grandmother encouraged and allowed to become a monster by his
>continual loving of her no matter what she did, but because she became a
>monster my mother, her brother, and others who had to deal with her also paid
>a high price. Was my grandfather's decision keep acting in love toward my
>grandmother, long after it was clear that she was never going to understand
>or change, right? Or not?
What was his motive? What was her motive? And by what measure was his
love limitless? Was the limitlessness of his "love" actually the
problem?
>As a result, we can sometimes reason that we are not standing up for our OWN
>rights, we are doing this for the other person's good. We remember Jesus
>emptying the temple and scathing the Pharisees, and we say "Surely there is a
>time to stand up for ourselves."
There may be a time to stand up not for ourselves but for God's law.
Jesus was not appealing to his personal sensibilities but he was
appealing to God's law on the basis of his love for it and Him.
>So it's clear that there are a LOT of good, sound, human-reasoning reasons to
>put limits on what Jesus said.
There's a lot of good, sound, biblical reasons to consider Jesus's
teaching concerning turning the other cheek with all of his other
teachings and actions and the teachings and actions of the Apostles and
so on.
>But what does JESUS say? What does THE WORD say? Let us see to it that we
>are not taken captive by deceptive philosophy which depends on ANYTHING but
>Christ.
>As far as I've been able to tell, Jesus doesn't provide any loophole. Christ
>doesn't say anything like "If you give him your tunic and then he wants your
>sandals too, well, then it's time to tell him no for his own good." He
>doesn't say "Do it for a little while, but if you get too weary then it's
>time to stop." He just says "Overcome evil with good." He makes no promise
>that good WILL overcome evil, just that it is our responsibility as his
>followers to do so. He makes no provision that I can find anywhere that we
>can stop doing this at a certain point if the other person doesn't respond as
>we'd like them to.
The context is very important, Paul. If it is a family member, one
response is required. If it is a stranger, another. If it is a
co-worker another would be in order and so on.
>In talking about this with a friend the other day, they mentioned Proverbs
>21:3 "To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the LORD than
>sacrifice," wondering whether the sacrifice to love people who respond with
>continued injustice was LESS pleasing to God than standing up for justice. I
>thought a lot about that one, but if I look at the examples Jesus gave -
>having your face slapped, having your possessions taken, being forced into
>(temporary) slave labor - none of them are just at all, and yet Jesus didn't
>tell us to stand up for justice in those situations. He said exactly the
>opposite - take the unjust thing that is done to you, and not only accept it,
>but AMPLIFY it.
Doing what is right in a given situation is what God requires. But
situations are not always simple. And answers, wisdom, come slowly in
some situations.
>As I said, resolution of this one has a PROFOUND effect on how we live our
>lives, some lives more than others.
The only resolution is a full understanding of God's Word.
jeff
Paul
|
| 65.8 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Wed Apr 02 1997 17:29 | 23 |
| I never said I could spell!
I think motive is an interesting thing to look at. What is your motive
for your actions. In the case of the grandfather, what was his motive?
Perhaps it wasn't really love, but the underlying motive was one of
fear of rejection, of confrontation, of truth? I don't know this man
so I'm just saying these things as examples.
If the real underlying motive was fear it would explain the result much
better.
Its hard to see what our true motives are. There is so much confusion
in this world and in ourselves. I personally pray for wisdom and
truth, this helps.
Jill
One of these days I'll have to pray for the ability to spell! Maybe
soon.
|
| 65.9 | | ALFSS1::BENSONA | Eternal Weltanschauung | Wed Apr 02 1997 17:33 | 6 |
|
One of these days, spelling will be a thing of the past! Until then we
can only hope that such nitpicking as is found in other conferences
won't get out of hand here ;)
jeff
|
| 65.10 | | PAULKM::WEISS | To speak the Truth, you must first live it | Wed Apr 02 1997 17:34 | 8 |
| I thought it was a LOVELY typo.
Yes, I often feel like I'm standing in front of a loaded Canon (of
Scripture). The creator of the universe has loaded it, and is standing with
torch ready to light the fuse. And He's telling me NOT to get out of the
way! :-) :-)
Paul
|
| 65.11 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Give the world a smile each day | Wed Apr 02 1997 17:35 | 13 |
|
> One of these days, spelling will be a thing of the past! Until then we
> can only hope that such nitpicking as is found in other conferences
> won't get out of hand here ;)
Sorry, folks...I got carried away..it's been a stressful couple of days, and
well, I guess I just got carried away.
Jim
|
| 65.12 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Wed Apr 02 1997 17:37 | 13 |
| No offense taken.
Paul, perhaps thats exactly the answer to your question! It depends on
which can<n>on we are standing in front of to determine if we should
move or not.
Cool! God is funny!
I do believe that Wayne said this in his note too.
Jill
|
| 65.13 | | ALFSS1::BENSONA | Eternal Weltanschauung | Wed Apr 02 1997 17:38 | 4 |
| What's stressing you, Jim? Haven't most of you been off work for
several days, relaxing by the fire?
jeff
|
| 65.14 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Give the world a smile each day | Wed Apr 02 1997 17:39 | 11 |
|
Long story, Jeff..and I braved the elements yesterday and came to work,
risking life and limb while venturing south in I93, to arrive and hold down
the fort here at Camp Digital.
Jim
|
| 65.15 | | ALFSS1::BENSONA | Eternal Weltanschauung | Wed Apr 02 1997 17:43 | 1 |
| whatta guy!
|
| 65.16 | | PHXSS1::HEISER | Maranatha! | Wed Apr 02 1997 18:04 | 1 |
| give that man a raise!
|
| 65.17 | | BBQ::WOODWARDC | ...but words can break my heart | Wed Apr 02 1997 18:26 | 5 |
| d'oh!
when I saw 'Canon' - I thought "printers" ;'}
H
|
| 65.18 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Give the world a smile each day | Wed Apr 02 1997 23:28 | 10 |
|
ACtually, I thought of the word spelled "canon" and pronounced "canyon",
and thought of one of my favorite places in Colorado Springs ;-/
Jim
|
| 65.19 | | ACISS2::LEECH | Terminal Philosophy | Thu Apr 03 1997 10:03 | 28 |
| I agree with Jeff, that turning the other cheek is not our only option
when confronting evil. In some cases, maybe God does want us to "grin
and bear it" for our own good or the good of others - even if it looks
like we make a doormat of ourselves. We can't see the results of such
actions right away, and perhaps God will use our actions to bring about
positive change in those who mistreat us.
It's a tough call, because WE can't always see the big picture.
Sometimes the best option is to extract ourselves from such an abusive
situation. I guess the best thing to do is to pray for discernment.
I know, I know... a lot of help I am not. 8^)
-steve
PS - I've recently been dealing with an issue of just how much help
should I give a friend who is less than responsible. Should I keep
bailing him out of his troubles, or should I draw a line? Am I really
helping him by turning into a crutch?
After much soul-searching, I decided that a line must be drawn at some
point. I'm sure there was some selfishness involved with this
decision, but in all honesty, I think that if I don't draw the line,
I'll do more harm to HIM than good... at least in the long run.
Perhaps not similar at all to the problems of the basenoter, but it's
along the same lines of "how much to you put up with?".
|
| 65.20 | | ALFSS1::BENSONA | Eternal Weltanschauung | Thu Apr 03 1997 11:44 | 10 |
|
Hi Steve,
Do you have "The Book of Virtues?". Under the "work" section there is
a letter Abraham Lincoln wrote to his stepbrother which may inform your
decision with your friend. The whole section may be beneficial. As
you are probably aware, Christian values were generally strongly
evident across society in western history.
jeff
|
| 65.21 | Chain yankers | CRUISE::LEVASSEUR | Nothing New Under The Sun | Thu Apr 03 1997 14:07 | 11 |
| .1
Thank you for posting that. It gives a clear, concise explanation
or clarification to what .0 asked.
This is like the ~/~~\~ groups who seem to endlessly challenge,
question and make fools of the faithful. You can be patient to a point
but at some point should banish said same people/groups...that is when
it becomes clear that they are baiting you and yanking your chains.
Oh well......sigh, ray
|
| 65.22 | | SSDEVO::THELLEN | Ron Thellen, DTN 522-2952 | Thu Apr 03 1997 15:19 | 12 |
| > <<< Note 65.18 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Give the world a smile each day" >>>
> ACtually, I thought of the word spelled "canon" and pronounced "canyon",
> and thought of one of my favorite places in Colorado Springs ;-/
Jim,
Are you talking about Cheyenne Ca�on?
If so, it is a very nice place.
Ron
|
| 65.23 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Give the world a smile each day | Thu Apr 03 1997 16:59 | 5 |
|
That's the one!
|
| 65.24 | name and all ;-) | PHXSS1::HEISER | Maranatha! | Thu Apr 03 1997 17:24 | 1 |
| Looks like it really made a lasting impression on you, Jim!
|
| 65.25 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Give the world a smile each day | Thu Apr 03 1997 17:25 | 7 |
|
I remembered the name, I just didn't post it. I used to go up there to
pray, many years ago..
Wise guy ;-)
|
| 65.26 | | DECWET::WANG | | Thu Apr 03 1997 20:06 | 31 |
| > It's a tough call, because WE can't always see the big picture.
> Sometimes the best option is to extract ourselves from such an abusive
> situation. I guess the best thing to do is to pray for discernment.
>
> I know, I know... a lot of help I am not. 8^)
As matter of fact I will take this for answer. When I read .0 I do not see the
mentioning of what the Holy Spirit has to say. Very often we can not tell
whether the "love" we give actually is from our flesh. A woman(a true story)
whose mother-in-law treated her badly and constantly accusing of her about
everything she did. She was always patient and nice to her mother-in-law. She
even prayed and asked the Lord to bless her mother-in-law. She won a lot of
other sisters' praises and they all use her as a role model. But the nicer she
treated back to her mother-in-law the worse her mother-in-law became. Until one
day this woman suddenly heard the Holy Spirit said to her "why do you treat your
mother-in-law so bitter and evil?". She suddenly became clear that
subconsciously the reason she treated her mother-in-law "biblically" was
actually to show that she was righteousness. She was using her "good" behavior
to show that how "bad" her mother-in-law was. She was not even aware of it
until the Lord revealed it her. She cried and repented and from then on she
treated her mother-in-law "normally". Shortly after that her mother-in-law
started to change her attitude. And now her mother-in-law treats her so nice
that no matter what she does her mother-in-law always says good things about
her.
Wally
|
| 65.27 | | PAULKM::WEISS | To speak the Truth, you must first live it | Fri Apr 04 1997 10:35 | 13 |
| Thank you, Wally. Your response is a blessing. I very much seek to hear the
Holy Spirit's leading in my life, and this is a wonderful example.
What I was seeking in .0 is to determine what the specific scriptural
limitations are. The Holy Spirit will never contradict the teaching of
Scripture, but if we are ignorant of the teaching of Scripture, we may
sometimes believe we have heard a directive from the Spirit which is not from
the Spirit at all. What I'm doing here is seeking the God-given boundaries
of acceptable behavior in these circumstances, within which the Holy Spirit
may lead us into the actions which are best for the particular case we are
living.
Paul
|
| 65.28 | | ALFSS1::BENSONA | Eternal Weltanschauung | Fri Apr 04 1997 10:53 | 20 |
|
Paul,
I recommend you first separate examples or potential occurences into
categories. For example - family, stranger, Christian, neighbor, co-worker,
etc. Then you should read the Bible with an eye toward what God has
instructed and see if it is qualified either directly or indirectly or
not at all, within a text, passage, chapter, book, the Bible. Then
note if the instructions tend to categorize actions along the lines
above. Then come to conclusions. Then check them with pastors,
teachers, commentaries, books on the subject, etc. Then come to
further conclusions. Practice what you understand, with the fear of
God. Be open to change.
Your subject is a broad and important topic. It will take you some
time to investigate and draw a well-thought out and well-understood
ethic from your efforts. There's no quick answers on such issues,
though we seek quick answers almost exclusively in our age.
jeff
|
| 65.29 | | PAULKM::WEISS | To speak the Truth, you must first live it | Fri Apr 04 1997 10:59 | 16 |
| > I recommend you first separate examples or potential occurences into
> categories. For example - family, stranger, Christian, neighbor,
> co-worker, etc.
Can you tell me a little of how you see these categories being different?
Give an example of how you see a significant difference in how we are to
treat someone?
I do understand some degree of categorizing. For example, though I have
pondered Wayne's response in .1 to some extent, I'm not sure it directly
applies to the situation. All the scriptures in .1 speak of walking away
from someone who we are attempting to teach about the Gospel if they prove
unwilling to listen. That is not the same situation that I'm asking about -
I'm asking about if someone directly mistreats you.
Paul
|
| 65.30 | | ALFSS1::BENSONA | Eternal Weltanschauung | Fri Apr 04 1997 11:24 | 50 |
| > I recommend you first separate examples or potential occurences into
> categories. For example - family, stranger, Christian, neighbor,
> co-worker, etc.
>>Can you tell me a little of how you see these categories being different?
>>Give an example of how you see a significant difference in how we are to
>>treat someone?
How is a father to respond to a child? How is a child to respond to a
father? A son to a Mother?
How is a Christian to respond to a stranger? To a co-worker? To a
neighbor?
How is a Christian to respond to a Christian?
If my child is sinning through his treatment of me, as his father I
must point out that he is breaking God's commandment to "honor they
father and mother", to name one way he is sinning. I must guide him to
repent, ask for forgiveness, and understand that he is forgiven and
help him change his behavior. There could be nothing more unlike
"turning the other cheek" than the things I would be required to do as
a father.
If a brother or sister has sinned against me, I must go to him/her and
work it out which is not "turning the other cheek". If that does not
work I must take one or two with me to try to help work it out. And so
on.
If I my neighbor is sinning against me, I must qualify my response. If
it is a matter of danger for my family, I am obligated to protect them.
If it is a matter of destruction of my property I must weigh my
response carefully, with much prayer and discernment. But it would not
be a sin to appeal to the laws, both God's law and civil law, which
are designed to produce harmonious living among sinful men.
Does this answer your question sufficiently?
As an aside, sometimes we get trapped in our thinking, or at least I
do. What I mean is that sometimes we have mental obstacles of our own
creation or of our confusion or ignorance which prevent us from acting
in a proper manner. These mental obstacles can be as effective as
physical obstacles in their result. And of course obstacles don't have
just a negative effect but they shape our thoughts and actions as we
attempt to live them out, trying to "go around" them even when reality
is telling us that they shouldn't be there or they seem to prevent some
important breakthrough in idea or thought or behavior. I'm rambling
now.
jeff
|
| 65.31 | | PAULKM::WEISS | To speak the Truth, you must first live it | Fri Apr 04 1997 11:57 | 22 |
| I'm with you to some extent, Jeff. Certainly our relationships to our
children and parents are different than other relationships, and you're
correct about the model of dealing with conflicts with Christian brothers and
sisters as outlined in Matthew 18.
It's the situation of dealing with unbelievers, or with former brothers and
sisters who are now to be treated as unbelievers due to going through the
process outlined in Matthew 18, that I'm most concerned with. You suggest
that it would not be a sin to appeal to the civil law, but I believe the Word
disagrees. Everywhere that the Word speaks of dealing with injustice to your
person, it speaks of bearing the cost in love - to the point of being a
slave, and serving a hard master as if he were Jesus. And 1 Cor 6 speaks
directly against bringing civil suits into the picture, specifically saying
that we should bear the cost rather than 'stand up for our rights:'
"Brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers.
Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits
against one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be
defrauded?"
1 Cor 6:6-7
Paul
|
| 65.32 | RE: .29 | ROCK::PARKER | | Fri Apr 04 1997 12:12 | 37 |
| Hi, Paul.
| I do understand some degree of categorizing. For example, though I have
| pondered Wayne's response in .1 to some extent, I'm not sure it directly
| applies to the situation. All the scriptures in .1 speak of walking away
| from someone who we are attempting to teach about the Gospel if they prove
| unwilling to listen. That is not the same situation that I'm asking about -
| I'm asking about if someone directly mistreats you.
** Hmmm...ponder some more! :-)
I thought my response, i.e., the principles induced from the Scripture
presented, WAS directly applicable to the situation.
You see, I thought you were subject to mistreatment because you were in
fact "attempting to teach about the Gospel." If you weren't trying to
show Agape, then there is absolutely no reason to remain under abuse!
Again, the Holy Spirit gives us discernment, as Wally pointed out. Don't
just assume that you're called to be a martyr. If we're supposed to just
be doormats, then we'd need only patience and endurance, not wisdom! But,
in the context of trial, Scripture says, "If any of you lack wisdom, let
him ask of God, that giveth to all liberally, and upbraideth not; and it
shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering...A double
minded man is unstable in all his ways." (Ja.1:5-8) If the wisdom were
general and known once for all time as always remaining under mistreatment,
then there would be no need to keep asking for wisdom, i.e., God's specific
perspective, in the vicissitudes of life!
The mandate of Scripture is to not render evil for evil. I submit that
Christians are NOT called to suffer without a real sense of both purpose
and timeliness.
So, in terms of our response to mistreatment, we ask, "To what end, or for
what purpose?" and "Is now the right time?"
/Wayne
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| 65.33 | | ALFSS1::BENSONA | Eternal Weltanschauung | Fri Apr 04 1997 12:38 | 40 |
| >I'm with you to some extent, Jeff. Certainly our relationships to our
>children and parents are different than other relationships, and you're
>correct about the model of dealing with conflicts with Christian brothers and
>sisters as outlined in Matthew 18.
Okay, so I suspect you are already gaining some clarity of thought on
your base note. And I have sufficiently answered your question
concerning the possible differences of categories you asked about?
>It's the situation of dealing with unbelievers, or with former brothers and
>sisters who are now to be treated as unbelievers due to going through the
>process outlined in Matthew 18, that I'm most concerned with. You suggest
>that it would not be a sin to appeal to the civil law, but I believe the Word
>disagrees. Everywhere that the Word speaks of dealing with injustice to your
>person, it speaks of bearing the cost in love - to the point of being a
>slave, and serving a hard master as if he were Jesus. And 1 Cor 6 speaks
>directly against bringing civil suits into the picture, specifically saying
>that we should bear the cost rather than 'stand up for our rights:'
So, here you are categorizing into "unbelievers" some folks and believe
that they require a particular response.
I'm sorry, but as St. Paul says clearly, the civil magistrate is put in
place by God for Christians' and society's benefit. It would be false
to believe without qualification that it is a sin to appeal to it. As
further evidence in support of our appeal to the law, God's Law defined
clearly a standard of justice which He fully expected all to appeal to
when required by virtue of the judges He provided.
> "Brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers.
> Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits
> against one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be
> defrauded?"
1 Cor 6:6-7
But isn't this directed toward believers rather than believers and
unbelievers?
jeff
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| 65.34 | | PAULKM::WEISS | To speak the Truth, you must first live it | Fri Apr 04 1997 12:49 | 6 |
| > But isn't this directed toward believers rather than believers and
> unbelievers?
Interesting thought, could be true. Worth pondering.
Paul
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| 65.35 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Fri Apr 04 1997 13:02 | 8 |
| I liked what Wayne said in .32 about praying for wisdom...
So, in terms of our response to mistreatment, we ask, "To what end,
or for what purpose?" and "Is now the right time?"
Jill
|
| 65.36 | Love and Bless | HLFS00::WILDT_W | Technicians are alone 2 | Mon Apr 07 1997 06:46 | 37 |
|
Brothers and sisters,
A lot of the things I normaly think about depend on my knowledge,
and there are so many thing I don't know.
Last time in church our pastor asked our believers search your heart
and look if somebody have something against you, and if so go to
this person and forgive him and pray about this.
Because God saw that we had something against Him, he came to us
and forgave us, and Jesus has been our doormat until we came to the
step that we accept His offer for us.
God has been doing so much for us, and sometimes we worry about
to get the blame for something that should be the blame of somebody
else.
But the other inportant thing is that we keep our hearts clean.
When somebody treated me badly and it stay on my mind and it
depressing me, my heart is not clean anymore.
And then I have to think of a story my wife told me.
When my wife was in her own country, a sister of her has treated her
bad, stolen things from her mothers place after her death, saying
bad things about my wife.
And it has been a burden for my wife for a long time.
Finaly she brought her problem for the Lord, and she started to
blessing her sister whenever she was praying.
And the last time she had contact whith friends from her own
country she was told that the sister who has treated her so badly,
now has more problems than you can ever imangine.
The Lord has taken care of this, because He simply not let anyone
to hurt His own children.
But we have to stay in His love, and bring our worries in prayer,
Our God is the Judge, we can NEVER take this place.
Our job is to LOVE and to BLESS.
In Him
L.B.W.
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