Conference yukon::christian

I don't recall much that the Bible says specifically about suicide.

But it says an awful lot about life, and about not taking it in our own
hands.  There is the commandment "Thou shalt not murder," which doesn't have
any exception clauses about yourself.  There is the fact that "You are not
your own, you were bought with a price."

So to your questions:

>Is it OK? 

  Absolutely not.

>Is it OK with God?

  Absolutely not.

>Is she committing a sin?

  Absolutely.

>Can we know her final destination?

  Not specifically because of this, one way or the other.  Jesus blood covers
  our sins, and there's nothing that says if our last act happens to be a sin
  that His blood can't cover that sin.  Her salvation will depend on her
  relationship with Him.  Though if her attitude is one of "I know this is
  sin, but I'll just do it anyway because it's what I want, and He will
  forgive it," it doesn't speak well of her relationship.

Paul

 "yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear
 no evil for thou art with me.  Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me".


 God is with us in this life, and with us as we transit to the next. I believe
 we are to trust Him as we make that transition.



 Jim

    What do you mean by "committed Christian?"  If the woman heard the
    gospel with faith unto obedience, confessing Jesus Christ as her Lord
    and Saviour, then her destination is sure.
    
    A question might be, who killed the woman, she herself or her terminal
    cancer?
    
    Such a hypothetical case tends to polarize rather than unite.  We're
    being asked to judge without knowing the measure of faith given the
    woman.
    
    Not to mention God's sovereignty!
    
    Some would deem the woman's "natural" death from cancer okay, or would
    not question her destination should she be killed by accident.  But, if
    she took her own earthly life in the flesh, then all of a sudden her
    death is "not okay," supposedly because life was somehow ripped from
    God's control.
    
    /Wayne

    .3
    
    Well put!  I concur completely Wayne.  We are often polarized by
    hypothetical questions as Christians and partially its because we
    present ourselves with having an absolute truth.  Because of having a
    single absolute truth i.e., salvation through Christ Jesus, and this
    Truth is rather dividing all on its own, we are often being put on the
    spot by such questions as this.  Some of these questions may be
    sincere, but my experience in the notes environment is that they have
    typically been used to criticize Christianity.
    
    

    Re: .4
    
    Oh come on Nancy I'm not repeat NOT trying to critize Christianity nor
    am I trying to divide or create polarization! The question was asked
    sincerely! The situation is not totally hypothetical and I was
    wondering what people thought, especially what the bible had to say
    about this situation or does it not say anything on this, why can't you
    take the question at face value.
    
    Peter
    

    Re: .3
    
    Wayne I'd like to start here with your reply,
    
    > Such a hypothetical case tends to polarize rather than unite.  We're
    > being asked to judge without knowing the measure of faith given the
    > woman.

    This, I am explicityly not trying to do! Maybe my questions could have
    been asked a little differently.
    
    > What do you mean by "committed Christian?"  If the woman heard the
    > gospel with faith unto obedience, confessing Jesus Christ as her Lord
    > and Saviour, then her destination is sure.
    
    OK this is a good question. I'm not sure how to answer, but let me
    provide this. The situation is not totally hypothetical. My wife
    raised the issue and told me this story about a relative of one of
    her work friends. I can't answer you what the woman's measure of
    faith was. I don't think anyone truly knows that of another. She was
    a believer though. My wife thinks that it is ok to take your own life
    in this situation, I don't. I don't think that God's going to sit back
    and say it's OK for you to check out and take your own life because, you
    know, things are getting a little rough. Yes you can say she would have
    died from the cancer so it's really the cancer that is killing her. Well
    I sorry that doesn't fly with me. One we don't know the future so this
    woman could have been cured dispite modern medicine. Two it's possible
    that God allows things like this to happen to bring good about, like
    the faith of another individual. Now maybe my question about her final
    destination was unfair, but I'm was just trying to see if we felt this
    was right or wrong in God's eyes and what he would do about it if it
    was wrong. Paul, I believe, commented on this and I can accept his
    position, however I would caution that that does not give us license
    to end our own lives when the going gets tough, no matter how tough.

    Peter
    

In the following statement, only paragraph 2 refers to suicide; the rest has
to do with limiting extraordinary care for the dying; the two issues are
related but distinct.  Note that the liberals in the Episcopal Church will
seek to weaken the absolute prohibition on suicide contained in paragraph
2 with each successive triennial convention, as they have done with every
other moral guideline on record.

                    THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH AND EUTHANASIA

Resolved, the House of Bishops concurring, That this 70th General Convention
[1991] set forth the following principles and guidelines with regard to the
forgoing of life-sustaining treatment in the light of our understanding of
the sacredness of human life:

1. Although human life is sacred, death is a part of the earthly cycle of
life.  There is a ``time to be born and a time to die'' (Eccl. 3:2).  The
resurrection of Jesus Christ transforms death into a transition to eternal
life: ``For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection
of the dead'' (I Cor. 15:21).

2. Despite this hope, it is morally wrong and unacceptable to take a human
life in order to relieve suffering caused by incurable illness.  This would
include the intentional shortening of another person's life by the use of a
lethal dose of medication or poison, the use of lethal weapons, homicidal
acts, and other forms of active euthanasia.

3. However, there is no moral obligation to prolong the act of dying by
extraordinary means and at all costs if such dying person is ill and has
no reasonable expectation of recovery.

4. In those cases involving persons who are in a comatose state from which
there is no reasonable expectation of recovery, subject to legal restraints,
this Church's members are urged to seek the advice and counsel of members of
the church community, and where appropriate, its sacramental life, in
contemplating the withholding or removing of life-sustaining systems,
including hydration and nutrition.

5. We acknowledge that the withholding or removing of life-sustaining
systems has a tragic dimension.  The decision to withhold or withdraw
life-sustaining treatment should ultimately rest with the patient, or
with the patient's surrogate decision-makers in the case of a mentally
incapacitated patient.  We therefore express our deep conviction that any
proposed legislation on the part of national or state governments regarding
the so-called ``right to die'' issues, (a) must take special care to see
that the individual's rights are respected and that the responsibility of
individuals to reach informed decisions in this matter is acknowledged and
honored, and (b) must also provide expressly for the withholding or
withdrawing of life-sustaining systems, where the decision to withhold or
withdraw life-sustaining systems has been arrived at with proper safeguards
against abuse.

6. We acknowledge that there are circumstances in which health care
providers, in good conscience, may decline to act on request to terminate
life-sustaining systems if they object on moral or religious grounds.
In such cases we endorse the idea of respecting the patient's right to
self-determination by permitting such patient to be transferred to another
facility or physicial willing to honor the patient's request, provided that
the patient can readily, comfortably and safely be transferred.  We
encourage health care providers who make it a policy to decline involvement
in the termination of life-sustaining systems to communicate their policy to
patients or their surrogates at the earliest opportunity, preferably before
the patients or their surrogates have engaged the services of such a health
care provider.

7. Advance written directives (so-called ``living wills,'' ``declarations
concerning medical treatment'' and ``durable powers of attorney setting
forth medical declarations'') that make a person's wishes concerning the
continuation or withholding or removing of life-sustaining systems should be
encouraged, and this Church's members are encouraged to execute such advance
written directives during good health and competence and that the execution
of such advance written directives constitute loving and moral acts.

8. We urge the Council of Seminary Deans, the Christian Education
departments of each diocese, and those in charge of programs of continuing
education for clergy and all others responsibie for education programs in
this Church, to consider seriously the inclusion of basic training in issues
of prolongation of life and death with dignity in their curricula and
programs.

Okay, Peter, here's the problem with hypothetical situations--everyone reads
between the lines:

|   A woman's husband gets cancer and she cares for him while he is sick.
|   Eventually he dies and she has seen his suffering and been with him to
|   the end. A few months later she is diagnosed with a fatal cancer also,
|   because she has seen and been a part of her husbands great suffering
|   she decides to commit suicide.

** Your original scenario says "she is diagnosed with a fatal cancer."  Were
   we supposed to read that as absolutely fatal, or just fatal to the best of
   man's understanding?

   Your bias apparently assumed not really fatal, but only fatal according to
   medical opinion and past history.

   In note .6, you said, "One we don't know the future so this woman could
   have been cured despite modern medicine. Two it's possible that God allows
   things like this to happen to bring good about, like the faith of another
   individual."  True enough, but that was not given as part of your original
   hypothetical scenario.

   You see, the more explicit you are around assumptions in hypothetical
   cases, the more likely we are to reach agreement.  Usually hypothetical
   situations lack such clarity, so they tend to be divisive because people
   read in their own assumptions.

   Do you see what I'm saying?

|                                  This woman is a committed Christian that
|   feels justified in doing what she does. She knows she will die anyway
|   and does not what to go through the suffering that she witnessed with
|   her husband. Her cancer is such that she will suffer significantly.

** Again, your original scenario says "she knows she will die anyway and does
   not want to go through the suffering that she witnessed."  You explicitly
   said "she will suffer significantly."  The context suggests that she
   wouldn't be cured, unlike the possibility of healing you assumed in
   your first reply to me.

   So, would you say that some Christians get cancer because they were called
   to suffer?

   What's the sin, actual suicide or the thinking that might lead to suicide?
   Jesus' own clarification of the law would seem to indicate that the desire
   to commit murder is the sin, not just the act.  What if the woman had died
   "naturally" all the while wanting to kill herself?  Would that be
   different?

|                                                                       Ok
|   here's the questions. Is this ok? Is this ok with God? Is she
|   committing a sin and can we know her final destination? What does the
|   bible have to say about this?

** Redundant questions: Is this ok? Is this ok with God?

   The answer to the second question answers the first!

   Is suicide murder?  If the answer to that question is affirmative, then
   suicide is sin, according to Scripture.

   Then we must talk about sin.  Is sin sin?  Or does God ignore "small" sins
   and punish "big" sins?  Are we declared righteous based on our sinlessness
   in the flesh, or are we righteous based on faith in Jesus Christ?  I know
   of only one person who died without sin.  Do you know of anyone else who
   has passed from this earthly life without sin?
    
|   One comment, this is a ficticious situation, although it certainly
|   could be a real one.

** Yep.  And you left too much to be read between the lines.

   I have a real-life suicide for you:  A Christian teenager--all who knew the
   girl were fully persuaded that she was saved--committed suicide by sitting
   in a running car in a closed garage.  But did she really?

   When her parents found her, the car door was open and both her legs were
   dangling out--she apparently had tried to get out, but too late.  She was
   overcome by carbon monoxide.  Was she repentant when she died, i.e., did
   she decide to not commit suicide after all?  But she was dead.  What was
   her destination?  Did she enter heaven without sin?  Did she respond to
   God's grace too late?

   The girl kept a diary as she waited to die.  The diary clearly showed that
   she intended to commit suicide when she started the car and shut the doors.
   But the writing also showed her mind changing to the point of questioning
   the validity of her decision.

   You be the judge.  Was her suicide just a tragic accident?  Who was to
   blame?  The pain was immense for her family who remained.  Her parents
   actually blamed themselves.  And many wondered where God was.

/Wayne

    And what about a Christian who falls asleep at the wheel of his car,
    causing "an accident" in which he dies and others are killed.
    
    Was he a murderer?  He was wrong to be driving tired, right?  Was he
    sinning?  Did he commit suicide?
    
    Suicide is understood to mean intentionally killing oneself.  But what
    about wrong action, or willful sin or known risky behavior, if you will,
    that leads to "accidental" death?  What's different in the final
    analysis?

    Re: .8
    
> Okay, Peter, here's the problem with hypothetical situations--everyone reads
> between the lines:
>
>|   A woman's husband gets cancer and she cares for him while he is sick.
>|   Eventually he dies and she has seen his suffering and been with him to
>|   the end. A few months later she is diagnosed with a fatal cancer also,
>|   because she has seen and been a part of her husbands great suffering
>|   she decides to commit suicide.

> ** Your original scenario says "she is diagnosed with a fatal cancer."  Were
>    we supposed to read that as absolutely fatal, or just fatal to the best of
>    man's understanding?

Absolutely fatal what does that mean? Fatal to the best of man's understanding,
I always thought that God was in control not man or his best understanding.
Often, statisically, modern medicine is right, but not every time.

>   In note .6, you said, "One we don't know the future so this woman could
>   have been cured despite modern medicine. Two it's possible that God allows
>   things like this to happen to bring good about, like the faith of another
>   individual."  True enough, but that was not given as part of your original
>   hypothetical scenario.

Ok Wayne so I gave a bad hypothetical scenario and in other posts I indicated
that the situation was in fact real.

>   You see, the more explicit you are around assumptions in hypothetical
>   cases, the more likely we are to reach agreement.  Usually hypothetical
>   situations lack such clarity, so they tend to be divisive because people
>   read in their own assumptions.

Is it not better to ask questions than make assumptions? That's usually the
way you operate Wayne. You know I would have been glad to clarify.

>   Do you see what I'm saying?

Yes, why are you approaching this this way, I'll clarify anything as needed,
I wrote the base note in haste, for sure, because I was busy this morning.

> ** Again, your original scenario says "she knows she will die anyway and does
>    not want to go through the suffering that she witnessed."  You explicitly
>    said "she will suffer significantly."  The context suggests that she
>    wouldn't be cured, unlike the possibility of healing you assumed in
>    your first reply to me.

I guess this is one of those areas that need clarification, I usually respond
better to questions though.

What the woman knows and what God does are two different things aren't they?
Yes my original post suggests that the woman will in fact die and suffer
much before. That does not negate the possibility of God's intervention.

>    So, would you say that some Christians get cancer because they were called
>    to suffer?

This is a tangent that I was not necessarily looking for. I suppose it's
possible that some Christians are in fact called to suffer.

>   What's the sin, actual suicide or the thinking that might lead to suicide?
>   Jesus' own clarification of the law would seem to indicate that the desire
>   to commit murder is the sin, not just the act.  What if the woman had died
>   "naturally" all the while wanting to kill herself?  Would that be
>   different?

Could you give me some scripture for that? Personally I don't think that 
would be a sin. However I'd have to think about it. Actually no I'll stand
by that. A person suffering could want to kill themselves and because they
believed strongly that it was wrong to and therefore did not kill
themselves would, IMHO, not be committing a sin.

> ** Redundant questions: Is this ok? Is this ok with God?

Yeah I guess they are!

>   Is suicide murder?  If the answer to that question is affirmative, then
>   suicide is sin, according to Scripture.

This is in fact the question I'm looking for.

> ** Yep.  And you left too much to be read between the lines.

>   I have a real-life suicide for you:  A Christian teenager--all who knew the
>   girl were fully persuaded that she was saved--committed suicide by sitting
>   in a running car in a closed garage.  But did she really?
>
>    Did she enter heaven without sin?  Did she respond to God's grace too late?

If in her heart she changed her mind before she died as the situation seems
to indicate then this is in fact a different situation. The woman in my
does not change her mind. How's that for reading someones mind. :)

I've got to go home I'll answer the rest tomorrow.

Peter

    

    I could not say suicide was ever justifiable, but I could and will say
    that it in cases it can be understandable, and also can be forgiven. We 
    do so many many things on a daily basis that miss the mark of God's 
    standards, and there are probably a multitude of things we are not even 
    aware of. Praise the Lord for His great mercy to us!

    Each of us make our choices and it is for our own choices we are 
    responsible.

    Leslie

Hi, Peter.

| Absolutely fatal what does that mean? Fatal to the best of man's
| understanding, I always thought that God was in control not man or his best
| understanding.  Often, statisically, modern medicine is right, but not every
| time.

** So, you say that God is in control, not man or his best understanding.  If
   the woman committed suicide, did God lose control?

| Yes, why are you approaching this this way, I'll clarify anything as needed,
| I wrote the base note in haste, for sure, because I was busy this morning.

** Because hypothetical situations are often based on presupposition, i.e.,
   presented in such a way as to force an obvious conclusion.  In this case,
   I saw an "obvious" answer to be that suicide is a (mortal) sin.  I saw
   suicide being postured as a greater sin, wherein one committing suicide is
   damned while one who killed another person might later repent and be
   forgiven.  Murder is murder.  Suicide is sin, and sin is sin.

   Suicide is a very sensitive issue, very close and real to some.  I do not
   feel a pat answer is appropriate, even in your hypothetical scenario, let
   alone in real life (and death).  The situation seemed to imply that the
   woman could commit suicide and lose her salvation, if she were ever saved.

| What the woman knows and what God does are two different things aren't they?
| Yes my original post suggests that the woman will in fact die and suffer
| much before. That does not negate the possibility of God's intervention.

** Okay.

| This is a tangent that I was not necessarily looking for. I suppose it's
| possible that some Christians are in fact called to suffer.

** But, did this hypothetical situation even imply an alternative to the
   woman's suffering?  If suicide is ruled out, then the only thing left was
   suffering, apart from God's intervention, of course.

| Could you give me some scripture for that? Personally I don't think that 
| would be a sin. However I'd have to think about it. Actually no I'll stand
| by that. A person suffering could want to kill themselves and because they
| believed strongly that it was wrong to and therefore did not kill
| themselves would, IMHO, not be committing a sin.

** I see this as rationalizing.  Jesus said, "except your righteousness shall
   exceed the righteousness <taught by> the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in
   no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Ye have heard that it was said by
   them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosover shall kill shall be in
   danger of the judgment: But I say to you, That whosover is angry with his
   brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment...Ye have heard
   that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I
   say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath
   committed adultery with her already in his heart." (see Mt.5:19-48)

   Sin is in the heart.  Righteousness goes beyond law keeping.  No man will
   enter the kingdom of heaven by virtue of keeping the law perfectly.  Jesus
   said those breaking even one of the least commandments will be least in the
   kingdom of heaven.  "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend
   in one point, he is guilty of all." (Ja.2:10)

   No doubt that suicide is breaking the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill."
   Does that mean the woman is eternally damned?  You be the judge,
   remembering Jesus' words, "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what
   judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it
   shall be measured to you again." (Mt.7:1&2)

   And "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."
   (Jn.7:24)

| This is in fact the question I'm looking for.

** Well, I think suicide is committing murder.

| If in her heart she changed her mind before she died as the situation seems
| to indicate then this is in fact a different situation.

** Different?  How so?  Are you suggesting that the basis for God's forgiving
   murder was because the girl saw suicide as wrong just before she died,
   that repentance turned intent into accident?

   Are you so sure that suicide couldn't be regarded as an accident caused by
   sin, i.e., not being perfect in the flesh?  We look on outward appearance
   while God looks on the heart.

/Wayne

    Re: .12

> ** So, you say that God is in control, not man or his best understanding.  If
>    the woman committed suicide, did God lose control?

I'm really not interested in having this discussion right now.

> ** Because hypothetical situations are often based on presupposition, i.e.,
>    presented in such a way as to force an obvious conclusion.  In this case,
>    I saw an "obvious" answer to be that suicide is a (mortal) sin.  I saw
>    suicide being postured as a greater sin, wherein one committing suicide is
>    damned while one who killed another person might later repent and be
>    forgiven.  Murder is murder.  Suicide is sin, and sin is sin.
> 
>    Suicide is a very sensitive issue, very close and real to some.  I do not
>    feel a pat answer is appropriate, even in your hypothetical scenario, let
>    alone in real life (and death).  The situation seemed to imply that the
>    woman could commit suicide and lose her salvation, if she were ever saved.

Ok Wayne I'll take back the question about the "final destination", it was
not what I was looking for anyway, again I'll say I wrote the base note in
haste. My intent was not to get into a discussion on levels of sin, or
wether suicide is a mortal sin or whatever. I do in fact have opinions on
that but I don't see any point to expressing them now. I don't want to
argue about that issue, or discuss it at this point.

I understand that suicide is a sensitive issue and I agree that there are
not "pat" answers, however I do believe that as Christians we need to
be ever vigilant against moral relativism. We must be careful how we
present this issue and the ramifications of it.

Again I take back the question about her final destination. It was not
where I wanted this discussion to go anyway. I don't think Christians
should run around saying that suicide is ok, even in difficult medical
situations. Why? Because life is a gift from God even if that which
remains is only 6 months or whatever. I repeat I feel very strongly
that life is a gift from God and suicide devalues that gift.

> ** But, did this hypothetical situation even imply an alternative to the
>    woman's suffering?  If suicide is ruled out, then the only thing left was
>    suffering, apart from God's intervention, of course.

Wayne I'm not sure what you are getting at. Is suffering necessarily a
bad thing? Do we not suffer if God chastises us when we do wrong?

> ** I see this as rationalizing.  Jesus said, "except your righteousness shall
>    exceed the righteousness <taught by> the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in
>    no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Ye have heard that it was said by
>    them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosover shall kill shall be in
>    danger of the judgment: But I say to you, That whosover is angry with his
>    brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment...Ye have heard
>    that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I
>    say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath
>    committed adultery with her already in his heart." (see Mt.5:19-48)

I don't. The only way I can explain it is to use sort of an analogy. I see
this as levels. A person who is suffering greatly may think about suicide
because they are in a sense overcome by the "flesh", that is the suffering.
However in their heart they feel it is wrong or unrighteous, so they
struggle with it. So this struggle is like a deeper spiritual level for
this person. Do we all not struggle with sin in some way or another?
Does this make us unrighteous? What should we do?

Christ in his suffering cried out to the Father, "why have you abandoned
me", in the garden he asked to have the cup removed. Of course in the
end he followed the Father will. Does this make him unrighteous? What
exactly was in his heart? What is in our heart when we struggle with
sin? Does that struggle automatically make us like the pharisees?

>    Sin is in the heart.  Righteousness goes beyond law keeping.  No man will
>    enter the kingdom of heaven by virtue of keeping the law perfectly.  Jesus
>    said those breaking even one of the least commandments will be least in the
>    kingdom of heaven.  "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend
>    in one point, he is guilty of all." (Ja.2:10)
> 
>    No doubt that suicide is breaking the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill."
>    Does that mean the woman is eternally damned?  You be the judge,
>    remembering Jesus' words, "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what
>    judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it
>    shall be measured to you again." (Mt.7:1&2)
> 
>    And "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."
>    (Jn.7:24)

Ok I've said I will take back that question. I'm looking more for a
theological stance on suicide and the ramifications of it. I agree that
the way I approached it was certainly not the best way. I will say that
others have seen it that way though. I'm in not position to judge anyone
and if you know me at all from this notes file you know that I'm very
carefull not to judge. If that's the way you see me well then I'm sorry
that's not me.

> ** Different?  How so?  Are you suggesting that the basis for God's forgiving
>    murder was because the girl saw suicide as wrong just before she died,
>    that repentance turned intent into accident?

Wayne I think all suicide is wrong. Many people would see a medical situation
involving suffering as a gray area, that is it may be ok to commit suicide in
those circumstances. A young man/woman committing suicide in despair due
to emotional issues in their life is different. Most of the time they can
get help and work through this issues. Understand I'm not saying that
suicide is ok in one situation and not the other I have stated so that
I feel it is all wrong. As you have said sin is sin.

>    Are you so sure that suicide couldn't be regarded as an accident caused by
>    sin, i.e., not being perfect in the flesh?  We look on outward appearance
>    while God looks on the heart.

Hhhmmm, I'm not sure what you are saying here. If I read it right then I
see this as a potentially dangerous position, I.E. it could in some
peoples mind justify suicide. Wayne you are right suicide is a sensitive
issue, people contemplating it are in a very difficult emotional situation.
IMHO statements like the above can add fuel to this. I agree with your
statement at face value I just think we need to be careful.

Peter
    

This discussion should take into account the fact that Massachusetts is
about to consider (and with the current makeup of the General Court
I fear pass) a bill to legalize suicide in cases such as the one in .0.

As the theme of M*A*S*H plays in the background.

/john

    To all. I believe I have come across somewhat callously, it was
    not my intention and I apologize for it. Please forgive me.
    
    People that are contemplating suicide need our love, understanding and
    care not our judgement. I would never judge anyone in this regard.
    
    When someone has committed suiced there still needs to be love,
    understanding and care, this is a very difficult issue that has many
    significant ramifications. My intent was not to be insensitive but
    unfortunately that is the way I came across, again I apologize.
    
    My desire was to look at this objectively from a theological point of
    view. My concern is with moral relativism, and the dangers of the moral
    decay of this society. This decay unfotunately impacts Christians, so I
    feel that it's something we must consider.
    
    Thank you,
    
    Peter

    Re: .14
    
    This is more like what I was looking for. How as Christians are we to
    react to this?
    
    Peter
    

Hi, Peter.

| I'm really not interested in having this discussion right now.

** So be it.  I think this discussion is crucial to considering suicide, but
   I'll defer to your wishes.

| Ok Wayne I'll take back the question about the "final destination", it was
| not what I was looking for anyway, again I'll say I wrote the base note in
| haste. My intent was not to get into a discussion on levels of sin, or
| wether suicide is a mortal sin or whatever. I do in fact have opinions on
| that but I don't see any point to expressing them now. I don't want to
| argue about that issue, or discuss it at this point.

** So be it.  Again, I think a proper understanding of sin is crucial to
   considering suicide, but I'll defer to your wishes.

| I understand that suicide is a sensitive issue and I agree that there are
| not "pat" answers, however I do believe that as Christians we need to
| be ever vigilant against moral relativism. We must be careful how we
| present this issue and the ramifications of it.

** Agreed!  Moral relativism is anathema, as is thoughtless declaration of
   false absolutes.

   We are called to love the Lord our God with all our strength, mind, soul
   and heart.  To know Jesus is eternal life.
   
| Again I take back the question about her final destination. It was not
| where I wanted this discussion to go anyway. I don't think Christians
| should run around saying that suicide is ok, even in difficult medical
| situations. Why? Because life is a gift from God even if that which
| remains is only 6 months or whatever. I repeat I feel very strongly
| that life is a gift from God and suicide devalues that gift.

** Peter, I never said "suicide is okay," nor did I mean to imply that
   suicide is justified.  No sin is okay.

   What I'm asking you to consider is that only God sees the heart of man to
   know how His gift of life is regarded.  The woman in your scenario
   obviously valued the life of her husband above her own.

   I guess compassion in lieu of judgment seems more prudent to me.  When
   God says the two become one flesh in marriage, how deep does that go?  Is
   that just hyperbole, or did a part of that woman die when her husband
   died?

   Jesus in no way condoned sin, yet he neither condemned the sinner.  May we
   by His grace so minister to one another.

| Wayne I'm not sure what you are getting at. Is suffering necessarily a
| bad thing? Do we not suffer if God chastises us when we do wrong?

** Do you think the woman's suffering with cancer was chastisement for doing
   wrong?

   As a matter of fact, I do consider suffering "a bad thing," the result of
   sin.  But, God has chosen to make us like Jesus through suffering.

|I don't. The only way I can explain it is to use sort of an analogy. I see
| this as levels. A person who is suffering greatly may think about suicide
| because they are in a sense overcome by the "flesh", that is the suffering.
| However in their heart they feel it is wrong or unrighteous, so they
| struggle with it. So this struggle is like a deeper spiritual level for
| this person. Do we all not struggle with sin in some way or another?
| Does this make us unrighteous? What should we do?

** Ah, there you have it, "what should we do?"  There is nothing we can do.
   We cannot keep the law.  Only by God's grace through the measure of faith
   given do we obey.

| Christ in his suffering cried out to the Father, "why have you abandoned
| me", in the garden he asked to have the cup removed. Of course in the
| end he followed the Father will. Does this make him unrighteous? What
| exactly was in his heart? What is in our heart when we struggle with
| sin? Does that struggle automatically make us like the pharisees?

** The struggle with sin is how we know that we are sinners and that Jesus is
   at work in us.  The struggle indicates that we are alive unto righteousness.

   And righteousness comes by faith in Jesus the Christ of God.  He has done,
   is doing and will do that which we cannot.

| Ok I've said I will take back that question. I'm looking more for a
| theological stance on suicide and the ramifications of it. I agree that
| the way I approached it was certainly not the best way. I will say that
| others have seen it that way though. I'm in not position to judge anyone
| and if you know me at all from this notes file you know that I'm very
| carefull not to judge. If that's the way you see me well then I'm sorry
| that's not me.

** Peter, as a matter of fact, I do see you as careful to not judge.  I'm
   having difficulty with the position that damnation accrues to suicide.
   That is judgment.

   You've always been open to discussion and you seek out others' opinion.
   You're a thinker and seeker of Truth, and that's why I usually engage you
   on any issue you raise.

   My overriding concern is that we REALLY THINK about and through what we
   believe.

   For the record, I see suicide as murder.  Killing breaks the law of God,
   and is thus sin.  We cannot overstate the gravity of sin!  Neither can we
   grasp the height and depth of God's love nor His power to utterly save
   those who believe on His name!

   The "theological stance on suicide" should be no more than a proper subset
   of the position on sin, righteousness and judgment.

| Wayne I think all suicide is wrong. Many people would see a medical situation
| involving suffering as a gray area, that is it may be ok to commit suicide in
| those circumstances. A young man/woman committing suicide in despair due
| to emotional issues in their life is different. Most of the time they can
| get help and work through this issues. Understand I'm not saying that
| suicide is ok in one situation and not the other I have stated so that
| I feel it is all wrong. As you have said sin is sin.

** "All suicide is wrong."  Agreed!

| Hhhmmm, I'm not sure what you are saying here. If I read it right then I
| see this as a potentially dangerous position, I.E. it could in some
| peoples mind justify suicide. Wayne you are right suicide is a sensitive
| issue, people contemplating it are in a very difficult emotional situation.
| IMHO statements like the above can add fuel to this. I agree with your
| statement at face value I just think we need to be careful.

** How did you read what I said as potentially dangerous position?  Jesus
   said, "Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no
   more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear
   Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say
   unto you, Fear Him." (Lu.12:4&5)

   "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (He.10:31)

   I would say to any who hear, do not receive the grace of God in vain.
   "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."
   (see 2Co.6)

   "Today if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts...For he that is
   entered into His rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did
   from His. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man
   fall after the same example of disobedience <in those to whom the gospel
   was first preached, but who entered not in because of unbelief>. For the
   word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than an twoedged sword,
   piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints
   and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
   Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight: but all
   things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do."
   (see He.4)

/Wayne

    Any "legalization" flying in the face of God's clearly revealed will is
    wrong!
    
    Legalizing suicide is morally reprehensible.
    
    The irony here, of course, is that no law on earth is binding on those
    who commit suicide, i.e., take their own life by their own hand.  This
    legislation is a sign of moral decline, ultimately seeking to absolve
    murder under the guise of man doing what seems right in his own eyes.
    
    The law impacts survivors in terms of insurance benefits.  But legaliz-
    ing suicide is NOT the solution to that issue!

>    The law impacts survivors in terms of insurance benefits.

I don't think so.  If the policy says no payout in the event of suicide,
then the law cannot change that contract made between the insured and
the insurer.

/john

    Hi, John.
    
    So you think the teeth of that clause in an insurance policy is not
    because suicide is illegal?
    
    Other exclusions deal with death in the context of known risky
    behavior.  If suicide weren't illegal, then wouldn't there be grounds
    to sue insurance companies for discrimination?
    
    You could be right.  I just see legal problems if you are, e.g., how
    would suicide be differentiated from murder?
    
    /Wayne

    Re: Wayne I forget the reply number. :)
    
> ** So be it.  I think this discussion is crucial to considering suicide, but
>    I'll defer to your wishes.

OK I'll bite. :) How does this fit into this discussion? Give me an idea of
what you think here Wayne? I'm not saying that it does not just want to
understand you point of view.

> ** So be it.  Again, I think a proper understanding of sin is crucial to
>    considering suicide, but I'll defer to your wishes.

This one I'll continue to leave alone. We may see this differently and that's
ok with me. For the purpose of this discussion I'll defer to you on "sin is
sin". I really was not trying to get into a discussion on levels of sin and
wether there are any or not. I have no problem with defering to the idea of
"sin is sin" because I think for the most part we agree on suicide as being
sinful. The issue of final destination is really not what I'm interested in.
Why, because suicide ultimately, IMHO, is an issue for the living.

> ** Agreed!  Moral relativism is anathema, as is thoughtless declaration of
>    false absolutes.
> 
>    We are called to love the Lord our God with all our strength, mind, soul
>    and heart.  To know Jesus is eternal life.

Amen! Something I pray for daily.
   
> ** Peter, I never said "suicide is okay," nor did I mean to imply that
>    suicide is justified.  No sin is okay.
>
>   What I'm asking you to consider is that only God sees the heart of man to
>   know how His gift of life is regarded.  The woman in your scenario
>   obviously valued the life of her husband above her own.

I don't disagree with this, most definitely God sees the heart.

>    I guess compassion in lieu of judgment seems more prudent to me.  When
>    God says the two become one flesh in marriage, how deep does that go?  Is
>    that just hyperbole, or did a part of that woman die when her husband
>    died?

I certainly would agree with this also and I would be the first to say that
a part of her did in fact die with her husband.

>    Jesus in no way condoned sin, yet he neither condemned the sinner.  May we
>    by His grace so minister to one another.

Agreed again.

> ** Do you think the woman's suffering with cancer was chastisement for doing
>    wrong?

No that's not the way I would look at it, though I'm sure it's probably the
way it came across. I would say, and not necesarily in this case, that God
allows suffering to happen in order for us to grow.

> 
>    As a matter of fact, I do consider suffering "a bad thing," the result of
>    sin.  But, God has chosen to make us like Jesus through suffering.

Do you mean sin in a general sense or specific? Is suffering the result of
a specific sin committed or the result of sin in general. I guess I'm not
sure I see your point, but I would agree in a sense with suffering being
"a bad thing", definitions are so important here. We life in a sinful
world and therefore everything is not always "A ok", that means we will
suffer sometimes.

> ** Ah, there you have it, "what should we do?"  There is nothing we can do.
>    We cannot keep the law.  Only by God's grace through the measure of faith
>    given do we obey.

I agree 100% with this, only through the grace of God!

> ** The struggle with sin is how we know that we are sinners and that Jesus is
>    at work in us.  The struggle indicates that we are alive unto righteousness.
> 
>    And righteousness comes by faith in Jesus the Christ of God.  He has done,
>    is doing and will do that which we cannot.

Again I agree 100%.

> ** Peter, as a matter of fact, I do see you as careful to not judge.  I'm
>    having difficulty with the position that damnation accrues to suicide.
>    That is judgment.

If I specifically said that then it was not my intent. I would not say that
"damnation accrues to suicide". But I wonder what the spiritual consequences
are of suicide, given that each case may be significantly different.

>    My overriding concern is that we REALLY THINK about and through what we
>    believe.

I will work to do just that.

>    For the record, I see suicide as murder.  Killing breaks the law of God,
>    and is thus sin.  We cannot overstate the gravity of sin!  Neither can we
>    grasp the height and depth of God's love nor His power to utterly save
>    those who believe on His name!
> 
>    The "theological stance on suicide" should be no more than a proper subset
>    of the position on sin, righteousness and judgment.

Ok I accept this and I think we are in complete agreement.

> ** How did you read what I said as potentially dangerous position?

I think there may be a miscommunication here. I was looking at this from
more of a psychological positon than spiritual. Almost as if it was giving
permission to commit suicide, not that you intended that, I'm sure now that
you did not. I was in no way trying to say it was dangerous as to salvation.

Peter
    

| A person who is suffering greatly may think about suicide because they are
| in a sense overcome by the "flesh", that is the suffering. However in their
| heart they feel it is wrong or unrighteous, so they struggle with it. So
| this struggle is like a deeper spiritual level for this person. Do we all
| not struggle with sin in some way or another? Does this make us unrighteous?
| What should we do?

** So what of two people setting out fully committed to suicide, one
   succeeding and the other failing, both doing the same thing with intent to
   kill themselves.  One died alone, the other perhaps found by someone in
   time to save life.

   Whose sin was greater?  Why or why not?

| Christ in his suffering cried out to the Father, "why have you abandoned
| me", in the garden he asked to have the cup removed. Of course in the
| end he followed the Father will. Does this make him unrighteous? What
| exactly was in his heart? What is in our heart when we struggle with
| sin? Does that struggle automatically make us like the pharisees?

** This example is worth serious consideration.

   Who killed Jesus?  He said, "No man taketh <life> from me, but I lay it
   down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it
   again."

   Did the Father kill Jesus?  He said, "For as the Father hath life in
   Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself."  And Jesus
   cried, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? I thirst. It is finished.
   Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit."  Having said thus, "He gave up
   the ghost."

   Again, suicide is the act of intentionally killing oneself.

   In no way am I suggesting that suicide is acceptable because Jesus
   intentionally killed Himself.  But I am asking that we carefully consider
   what was in/on Jesus' heart when He died.  Did He feel the pain of suicide
   victims, the despair wrought by sin?

   What is on/in the hearts of those who commit suicide?  Into whose hands do
   they commend, or have they commended, their spirits?  Who has power to
   resurrect, some to life and others to damnation?

   We just do not see people's hearts, except as the Holy Spirit might give
   discernment.  Under the law is none righteous, only Jesus who became our
   sin and in/by whom believers live.

   "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. There
   hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is
   faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able;
   but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be
   able to bear it." (1Co.10:12&13)  What does this mean for believers?  What
   does this mean to a suicide victim?

   Our Lord Jesus Christ "shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be
   blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom we
   were called unto the fellowship of His Son Jesus Christ our Lord."
   (1Co.1:8&9)

   "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and you whole spirit and
   soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus
   Christ. Faithful is He that calleth you, who also will do it." (1Th.5:23&24)

   "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most
   miserable." (1Co.15:19)

   May God bless His Word to our hearts.  Any who would use Scripture I've
   quoted to justify suicide are not hearing Truth.  God does NOT justify
   sin, rather He justifies sinners.

Hi, Peter.

| OK I'll bite. :) How does this fit into this discussion? Give me an idea of
| what you think here Wayne? I'm not saying that it does not just want to
| understand you point of view.

** I see God in no less control of suicide than in one man's murder of
   another.

   I'm impelled to say no more, other than to suggest that God always was, is
   and shall be more than we think.  No matter how much we come to know, God
   is always there saying I AM (this and more).

   "Now unto Him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we
   ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto Him be glory
   in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end.
   Amen." (Ep.3:20&21)

| This one I'll continue to leave alone. We may see this differently and that's
| ok with me. For the purpose of this discussion I'll defer to you on "sin is
| sin". I really was not trying to get into a discussion on levels of sin and
| wether there are any or not. I have no problem with defering to the idea of
| "sin is sin" because I think for the most part we agree on suicide as being
| sinful. The issue of final destination is really not what I'm interested in.
| Why, because suicide ultimately, IMHO, is an issue for the living.

** Why do you say "for the most part" we agree on suicide being sin.  Concern-
   ing the sinfulness of suicide I could not agree with you more!

   The thing we might not totally agree on, though probably for the most part
   we do, is what sinning "willfully after that we have received the knowledge
   of the truth" such that "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" might
   entail.  "He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or
   three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be
   thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath
   counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, and unholy
   thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (see He.10:26-39)

   Peter, you've spoken profoundly, if not prophetically--"suicide ultimately
   is an issue for the living."  And God is God of the living!

| I think there may be a miscommunication here. I was looking at this from
| more of a psychological positon than spiritual. Almost as if it was giving
| permission to commit suicide, not that you intended that, I'm sure now that
| you did not. I was in no way trying to say it was dangerous as to salvation.

** I'm in no position to give "permission to commit suicide," even if I
   wanted to.  The law says, "Thou shalt not kill."  Seems clear to me!

/Wayne

    Re: .22 & .23
    
    Hi Wayne,
    
    I read your notes and want to reply but I don't have the time know,
    plus some of it I want to think and pray about. So I'll post more next
    week, in the mean time have a joyous Easter!
    
    Peter
    
    P.S. To bad the weather is not going to be like today this weekend, for
    those of you in the Mass/New England area.

    Joyous Easter, indeed, Peter!  I love Easter and the associated
    meditation on Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.
    
    We live because He lives.  "For I reckon that the sufferings of this
    present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall
    be revealed in us." (Ro.8:18)
    
    /Wayne

    Life's cheap in the gay 90's. Being sick, elderly or inform is
    a capital offense (costs money). how long will it be before they
    just come out and use the term popular in nazi germany "useless
    eaters". Closer than ya'll think?
    
    Doctors have been helping aids patients snuff themselves for 
    quite some time; all quite quietly and behind closed doors. Maybe
    due to the politikal nature of aids....pretty much unnoticed. 
    But then people with aids/hiv are at the bottom of the societal
    food chain in many's eyes.
    
    Well with all the rising medical costs and difficulty of modern
    manmade diseases; aids, cancer, etc. God seems to have dropped out 
    of the healing/curing business. But ya know, them sinnah's must
    pay for their sins (only certain ones). Where God failed or turned
    his back, the western medical team moved in attempting to poison
    people into health with aids drugs, cancer chemo, radiation, and a 
    host of other equally unpleasant and questionable practices. The
    labs, drug companies, etc make their billions, hte patient is left
    as a burned out hulk.....nothing left to do but put'em down like 
    diseased livestock.
    
    Sign, as Ole Sachmo said, "and i say to myself, what a wonderful
    world".
    
    have a swell easter, r

    .26
    
    Ray, it's good to see you again!  :-)  I always enjoy reading your
    posts, they are a refreshing breath of realism.  
    
    Love you,
    Nancy

    Hi Ray!  I missed you too.
    
    Jill
    

Hi Wayne,

Sorry I have not responded sooner. I've been very busy and have not had a
chance. I'm going to separate my comments into a couple of notes.

> ** So what of two people setting out fully committed to suicide, one
>    succeeding and the other failing, both doing the same thing with intent to
>    kill themselves.  One died alone, the other perhaps found by someone in
>    time to save life.
> 
>    Whose sin was greater?  Why or why not?

I'm inclined to say their sin is equal but who am I to judge? Both desired
to commit suicide, which we agree is a sin. I would'nt say that the fact
that one was successfull and one wasn't changes the degree of the sin, in
as much as both had the desire. So I'm left with a question that I'm not
sure how to answer. Does the desire to commit a sin mean that we in fact
commit a sin, or more specifically does the desire to kill oneself mean
that a person sins? This of course is a whole other discussion.

Peter

    

    Opps I forgot the Re, for this and the note before;
    
    Re: .22
    
More here Wayne,

> ** This example is worth serious consideration.
> 
>    Who killed Jesus?  He said, "No man taketh <life> from me, but I lay it
>    down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it
>    again."
> 
>    Did the Father kill Jesus?  He said, "For as the Father hath life in
>    Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself."  And Jesus
>    cried, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? I thirst. It is finished.
>    Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit."  Having said thus, "He gave up
>    the ghost."

Some of this leaves me with more questions. Did the Father forsake him
deliberately or because he took on our sins? What was the relationship
Christ had with the Father? Was it something we can as humans understand,
such that to lose the Father as Christ did we would have any hope of
understanding his anguish? What happened to the Trinity in Christ's death?
What effect does the Trinity have on Christ incarnate and walking around
on earth?
 
>    Again, suicide is the act of intentionally killing oneself.
> 
>    In no way am I suggesting that suicide is acceptable because Jesus
>    intentionally killed Himself.  But I am asking that we carefully consider
>    what was in/on Jesus' heart when He died.  Did He feel the pain of suicide
>    victims, the despair wrought by sin?

I'm glad of that! :) My believe and hope is that love was on Jesus' heart
when he died. That's a big thing. How could a person love in the face of
so much suffering. Well thankfully Jesus was not merely human. When he
died he suffered in a way that no human has before or after. What would
it be like to take on sooooooo much sin? Do suicide victims feel the same,
I don't know, if yes then I would say on a much smaller scale. I'm not sure
this is a fair comparison though. What are you driving at with it Wayne?

As to who killed Jesus, that's a tall order Wayne. I would say the answer to
that question is very involved. Here are some potential candidates.

	1. God the Father.
	2. Jesus committed suicide.
	3. Pontius Pilate.
	4. The Pharisees.
	5. The Roman soldiers.
	6. Judas.
	7. Adam and Eve, after all sin entered into the world from them.
	8. You, me and every other human being.

As for #2 I don't think Jesus committed suicide. The fact that he willing
layed down his life does not say that he committed suicide, unless we have
very different definitions of suicide. If I see someone with a gun try to
shoot my daughter and I jump in the way and take the bullet have I committed
suicide? I think not, nor did the early Christians that were martryed for
Christ. What is it that Christ says is the greatest thing something about
laying down your life for another? Oh well some much for my memory of
scripture. :)

What happened at Gethsename (SP?), what was Christ's despair, he clearly
asked the Father if the cup could pass, but he knew and did the Father's
will. It was the Father's plan for salvation and Christ knew that he must
fulfill it. So maybe we can say the God the Father killed him. 

You know my gut reaction says that #3 through #8 are responsible. We are
the sinners he died for, including Pilate, Judas, the Pharisees etc.

I'm left with a question. Why? Why do it this way, why did Christ have to
die, after all the Father did say "Thou shall not kill". I know the
usual off the cuff answers, because of our sins and all that. What I'm
saying is God is omnipotent he could forgive our sins somehow else, no?
Well the Father's plan is the Father's plan. He set it out for a reason,
it unfolded as it did because that is what he wanted. I a mere human
cannot understand it, it is not completely logical to me. But did Christ
ask me to understand, no he asked me to believe, so I do, even though I
have no understanding. This is what faith is.

I don't know if this answers your questions or not Wayne, but I suspect
we may not be able to answer this one fully.

Peter

    

    Hi, Peter.
    
    You've done some good thinking, and I would really not ask more than
    that.  The Truth revealed to your heart as you focus on Him will be
    yours forever, and will become increasingly precious.
    
    May we together grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus
    Christ!
    
    I would refer you to topic 875 in (the old) YUKON::CHRISTIAN_V7 for
    some of my own thoughts on this subject.
    
    /Wayne
    
    P.S.  To answer your question, "What are you driving at with <comparing
    what might have been in/on Christ's heart when He died to what suicide
    victims might feel>?", I see suicide as sin, as murder is sin.  But, I
    do not see suicide necessarily as final rejection of, or turning from,
    God's grace.  Only God knows the heart.  And I believe that Jesus felt
    the despair that might lead sinful flesh to death.  Furthermore, I see
    death in/of the flesh as part of our being delivered from sin, and the
    time and circumstance of that delivery in Christ is God's prerogative
    alone.  Physical death is NOT the end of the story!