Conference yukon::christian

    The bible says to pick up our cross and follow Jesus.  Thats rather
    painful.  How can a God of love allow us to suffer this way?  How can a
    God of love allow His son to suffer this way?  
    
    
    Jill

1 Peter 2:21  
    For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us,
 leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
    
4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try
 you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that,
 when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
4:14  If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit
 of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but
 on your part he is glorified.
4:15  But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an
 evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
4:16  Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him
 glorify God on this behalf.
4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if
 it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel
 of God?
4:18  And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the
 sinner appear?
4:19  Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the
 keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

I think you answered the 'what,' Mike, but not the why.

Yes, it is very true that Christ suffered, and it is very true that as
believers we share in His sufferings.

I think Jill is asking deeper.  Why?  Why is this necessary?

Paul

    
    Because it is the reality which God has created.  It is the means He
    has chosen to achieve His ends.  The view of God's immeasurable
    goodness and riches is most clearly seen in its contrast with wickedness,
    poverty, and suffering.
    
    jeff

�    The Bible says to pick up our cross and follow Jesus.  Thats rather
�    painful.  How can a God of love allow us to suffer this way?  How can a
�    God of love allow His Son to suffer this way?  

God's purpose in creation is to make people to share the perfection of 
eternity in His presence.  Physical life is a means to an end; not an end 
in itself.  The essential feature of sharing heaven with God is a dominant 
feature of His character; that of love.  He desires independent people, who 
have chosen to love Him.  The only way you can develop love for someone is 
to voluntarily relinquish your personal comfort zone for their benefit - 
whether they realise it or not.

God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son.

Not so that Jesus ceased to exist in the Godhead, but to bring into it a 
new dimension.

  "During the days of Jesus' life on earth, He offered up prayers and 
   petitions with loud cries abnd tears to the One Who could save Him from 
   death, and He was heard because of His reverent submission.  Although 
   He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered, and once made 
   perfect [complete] He became the source of eternal salvation for all who 
   obey Him."
							Hebrews 12:7-9

Jesus' choice to die for us was a voluntary yielding up of what was most 
precious - life as He knew it, in His physical form.  It was also a choice 
of something even harder.  Bearing our sin.

� How can a God of love allow His Son to suffer this way?  
Because God wanted to make us into the very best that we can be - otherwise 
we wouldn't feel at home in heaven, where He, the Holy One is sovereign.
We had to see the depth of the cost of love - on the cross - in order to 
begin to understand the foulness of sin; in order to realise that love 
isn't just a comfortable woolly feeling, but active to the point of 
accepting pain.  In order to realise that an unGodly character in us is 
grieviously offensive to Him Who died to live in our hearts.  In order to 
invest in love, to the extent of 'dying' to sinful desires, just so that He 
can have delight in us, and not sad because our claim to love Him is not 
reflected in our actions, motives, thoughts, opinions, attitude to others 
who are also made in His image....

It's also a part of learning that 'the law' isn't a rigid, overbearing 
domination, but a simple revelation of how we can enjoy to the fullest 
practical extent the life He has designed us for.

The cross we take up is a denial of self - the self which would keep Him 
out.  As we lift up that cross each day, we find that it is He Who has 
taken its weight, and that it makes room in our hearts to enjoy Him.  The 
world sees it as a cruel burden, because they can only try to lift it in 
their own strength.

He asks us to give up the burdens that drag our hearts down.  At first, 
they seem to be so much a part of us that it is impossible.  Until, with 
our eyes on Him, we lose sight of other things.

Matthew 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


Matthew 10:38 
	And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not 
	worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24 
	Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after
	me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mark 8:34 
	And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also,
	he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, 
	and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mark 10:21 
	Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing
	thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the 
	poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the 
	cross, and follow me.

Luke 9:23 
	And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him
	deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.


God is preparing a people for heaven who will not be disappointedly longing 
after the things they left on earth ... unlike Lot's wife!  He says "I've 
got something so valuable here that you need to invest everything in it."  
And He is right.  There is pain here so that we can learn the steps of 
love; how to put it into practise.

On our wedding day, my wife said that she loved me.  (actually she'd said 
it before, but that's beside the point).  It cost her little to make that 
claim.  What's more difficult has been to stay with me and put that love
into practise for 27 years.  That's what 'proved' her love for me.  Not 
that it was in doubt, but the investment of those years, and weathering 
aech other's differences; putting our unity first, gave that expressed 
love new dimensions.  It is much more real now, though there was nothing 
unreal about it on 27th August 1989 (our wedding day).  But the 'nice' 
times together aren't the best cement; it's the difficult times we've 
weathered together.  I guess that's another reason why children are born to 
parents... ;-)

As we walk with the LORD and put Him first, He becomes more real to us in 
many ways.  Our will becomes willingly crucified, and life becomes more 
exciting as we learn new dimensions of Him...


  His example showed us that love is willing to suffer pain for the loved one.

  Willingly accepting suffering builds up our character - the real 'us' for 
  eternity

  Choosing to put Him first - before ourselves - gives Him room to work in us.
  His live is developed within us.
 

Sorry Jill,  I feel I've not managed to express this as I would like to.  


					God bless
							Andrew

    I've got a question that I'd like opinions on (I certainly have my own 
    8^) ).
    
    Should we continue to help someone who continually puts themself into a
    position in which they need to be bailed out (due to bad decision
    making)?  Someone who seems positively unwilling to help themself?
    
    My view on this is that such a situation borders on co-dependency, and
    at some point, you have to stop helping or you make the problem worse.
    
    I realize this is a rather general question, and I can supply more
    details if necessary.  But the whole situation boils down to the above
    comments.
    
    Any comments?                                                    

    Ok, I'll jump in since no one else seems to want to...
    
    I really don't think that there is a clear answer here.  Every case is
    different.  The only thing to do is to seek the Lord's direction on
    this.  His will and timing are what is needed.  
    
    
    Jill
    

 re .6


 no.

As Jill and Jim say, this is so situation specific that no template answer 
can be rubber stamped onto it.

Often it boils down to whether you are more interested in blessing for 
the asked or the asker; whether you put more value on the material 
need/sacrifice or the person behind the request; maybe whether the 
motivation behind the request is deteriorating (making them more dependent 
/ selfish / greedy), or improving (is there percieved repentance or regret).

If you are really more interested in blessing the person who receives the 
request, their main spin-off is apparently patience, and a genuine yielding 
up of material goods and setting apart fropm worldly motivation.  So in 
that case, they should be prepared to give as the LORD gave...

If you are really more interested in blessing the person who makes the 
request, you're onto a much more difficult wicket, because unless you have 
direct revelation, you don't know at exactly what stage, and to what 
degree, resistance is going to bless rather than discourage them.

So it comes back to seeking the LORD for the specific situation, each time. 
Which is very possibly whay He allows one into the situation - to learn how 
to learn from Him continually...

							Andrew

    re: -1
    
    	AMEN!

    I can answer this question, but you many may disagree.  You don't help
    an adult get out of suffering consequences for their behaviors/actions,
    period.
    
    You can help in assisting them to discover why they made such wrong
    decisions.
    
    Love,
    Nancy

    Thanks for the comments.
    
    I tend to agree with you, Nancy (and Jim), but I'll keep praying on this 
    one.  Unless God tells me to do otherwise, I'm withdrawing my
    assistance.
    
    This is not a quick decision on my part, either.  I've been helping
    this person for well over a year (money, favors, and generally putting
    myself out for him) - even letting him stay with me for a
    while at one point (and I have a very small place).  I see no improvement, 
    only an increased dependance upon others due to his bad decision making 
    and unwillingness to hold down a job (this is the only conclusion I can
    come to, he has a trade and he is smart).
    
    I thought I was being too harsh in my opinion until I had a few
    enlightening conversations with his girlfriend.  It seems he is not
    above deception to get his way (it's amazing what a little shared
    information can peice together... she came right out and asked me "Do
    you have any clue as to why he doesn't want to work?"). 
    
    I'll admit that part of my motivation is simply "enough's enough".  I'm
    tired of this never-ending string of "favors".  But also, it is my best
    judgement that as long as someone continues to shield him from the 
    consequences of his own behavior, I don't see any change taking place in 
    the future.  

 Hmm...this isn't my son, Sean you are talking about, is it Steve?




 1/2 :-)

    Uh... no.  8^)
    
    If he were, you'd have to be a lot older than I imagined you.  8^) 

    heh heh heh, he is, he is, :-) 

 Watch it!

    What happened to chit-chat?
    
    Is there a note for comments on 28 (Prophesies & Visions), especially
    the last 10 or so, "gloom, doom, and misery on earth" ones?
    
    While these two questions may not be of the "frequently asked" variety,
    what do you think the most FAQ's after the devastation predicted there
    in 28.* will be?
    
    JPR 

The Note-Gobbler frequently eats the Chit-Chat base note.

Someone should fix it.

Whenever the Note-Gobbler has done its ravenous deed, ANY participant
in the conference can WRITE a new Chit-Chat base note and then
SET NOTE/NOTE=14 to put it into the customary place.

/john

    My son just asked me if Eve wasn't surprised that the serpent could
    talk in the garden of Eden because God perhaps made all animals with
    this ability to communicate.  And if not, then why wasn't Eve
    surprised?
    
    I couldn't answer... can you?

    well...
    
    (just a guess) but if everything is still pretty "brand new", perhaps
    the surprise would be that everything else _couldn't_ talk - after all,
    Adam talked to her, the Lord talked to her, why shouldn't the serpent?
    (and other animals).
    
    Let's face it, how many people talk to their pets nowadays, and insist
    that, in some way, the pets answer back?
    
    hth,
    
    H

    .20
    
    Best answer so far. :-)

    um... er... yeah ;'}

    "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the
    LORD God had made." (Ge.3:1a)
    
    "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his
    subtility, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that
    is in Christ." (2Co.11:3)
    
    Make no mistake.  The serpent was different, intelligent and more
    beautiful than any animal the LORD made.  In my opinion, Eve wasn't
    surprised by the serpent because she was so attracted.
    
    Good lesson for our times!

>    Let's face it, how many people talk to their pets nowadays, and insist
>    that, in some way, the pets answer back?
    
 
<sheepishly raises hand>

    you have a pet sheep!? ;')

 ewe knock it off..that was baaaaad..

    No pulling the wool over your eyes, I see.

    I'm in shear shock at you two!