| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 26.1 | Definitions | ROCK::PARKER | | Thu Feb 06 1997 08:57 | 27 |
| Manhood - 1. The condition of being an adult male.
2. The qualities usually attributed to a man.
3. Men collectively.
Man - 1. An adult male human being.
2. A human being; person.
3. Mankind.
4. A man having the qualities considered characteristic of
manhood.
Manly - Having qualities generally attributed to a man.
Mankind - 1. The human race.
2. Men as distinguished from women.
Male - 1. Of, pertaining to, or designating the sex that produces
spermatozoa for fertilizing ova.
2. Characteristic of the male sex; masculine.
Masculine - 1. Of or pertaining to the male sex.
2. Characteristic of or suitable to a man.
I entered the above definitions to establish common human understanding
and use of terms.
Now, where does man find true identity and purpose? Nancy has asked
us to compare and contrast our opinions with Scripture.
|
| 26.2 | Man and Woman | ROCK::PARKER | | Thu Feb 06 1997 11:14 | 41 |
| "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and
let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of
the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every
creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in His
own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created
He them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and
multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion
over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every
living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have
given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of the earth,
and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to
you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every
fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it
was so." (Ge.1:26-31, KJV)
"And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to
every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet
for him. And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he
slept: and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead
thereof; And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made He a
woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of
my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Isha (Woman),
because she was taken out of Ish (Man). Therefore shall a man leave his
father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall
be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were
not ashamed." (Ge.2:20-25)
"In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made He him;
Male and female created He them, and called their name Adam, in the day
when they were created." (Ge.5:1&2, KJV)
Observation: Man created in God's image is male and female.
Hypothesis: God's likeness is seen in man and woman together.
Woman was in man from the beginning, and man saw himself incomplete
without woman. Apart from man there was no woman, and apart from woman
would there be no more man. In the beginning, man and woman together
were given dominion over every other living thing, but not over each
other.
|
| 26.3 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Wed Mar 26 1997 11:39 | 153 |
| Sorry, I just couldn't resist posting this joke that came across the net
today...
Are You a Guy?
Take This Scientific Quiz to Determine Your Guyness Quotient
1. Alien beings from a highly advanced society visit the Earth, and
you are the first human they encounter. As a token of intergalactic
friendship, they present you with a small but incredibly sophisticated
device that is capable of curing all disease, providing an infinite
supply of clean energy, wiping out hunger and poverty, and permanently
eliminating oppression and violence all over the entire Earth. You
decide to:
a. present it to the president of the United States.
b. present it to the secretary general of the United Nations.
c. take it apart.
2. As you grow older, what lost quality of your youthful life do you
miss the most?
a. Innocence.
b. Idealism. Are You a Guy?
Take This Scientific Quiz to Determine Your Guyness Quotient
1. Alien beings from a highly advanced society visit the Earth, and
you are the first human they encounter. As a token of intergalactic
friendship, they present you with a small but incredibly sophisticated
device that is capable of curing all disease, providing an infinite
supply of clean energy, wiping out hunger and poverty, and permanently
eliminating oppression and violence all over the entire Earth. You
decide to:
a. present it to the president of the United States.
b. present it to the secretary general of the United Nations.
c. take it apart.
2. As you grow older, what lost quality of your youthful life do you
miss the most?
a. Innocence.
b. Idealism.
c. Cherry bombs.
3. When is it okay to kiss another male?
a. When you wish to display simple and pure affection without regard
for narrow-minded social conventions.
b. When he is the pope. (Not on the lips.)
c. When he is your brother and you are Al Pacino and this is the only
really sportsmanlike way to let him know that, for business reasons,
you have to have him killed.
4. What about hugging another male?
a. If he's your father and at least one of you has a fatal disease.
b. If you're performing the Heimlich maneuver. (And even in this case,
you should repeatedly shout: "I am just dislodging food trapped in
this male's trachea! I am not in any way aroused!")
c. If you're a professional baseball player and a teammate hits a home
run to win the World Series, you may hug him provided that (1) He is
legally within the basepath, (2) Both of you are wearing protective
cups, and (3) You also pound him fraternally with your fist hard
enough to cause fractures.
5. Complete this sentence: A funeral is a good time to . . .
a. . . . remember the deceased and console his loved ones.
b. . . . reflect upon the fleeting transience of earthly life.
c. . . . tell the joke about the guy who has Alzheimer's disease and
cancer.
6. In your opinion, the ideal pet is:
a. A cat.
b. A dog.
c. A dog that eats cats.
7. You have been seeing a woman for several years. She's attractive
and intelligent, and you always enjoy being with her. One leisurely
Sunday afternoon the two of you are taking it easy -- you're watching
a football game; she's reading the papers -- when she suddenly, out of
the clear blue sky, tells you that she thinks she really loves you,
but she can no longer bear the uncertainty of not knowing where your
relationship is going. She says she's not asking whether you want to
get married; only whether you believe that you have some kind of
future together.
What do you say?
a. That you sincerely believe the two of you do have a future, but you
don't want to rush it.
b. That although you also have strong feelings for her, you cannot
honestly say that you'll be ready anytime soon to make a lasting
commitment, and you don't want to hurt her by holding out false hope.
c. That you cannot believe the Jets called a draw play on third and
seventeen.
8. Okay, so you have decided that you truly love a woman and you want
to spend the rest of your life with her -- sharing the joys and the
sorrows, the triumphs and the tragedies, and all the adventures and
opportunities that the world has to offer, come what may. How do you
tell her?
a. You take her to a nice restaurant and tell her after dinner.
b. You take her for a walk on a moonlit beach, and you say her name,
and when she turns to you, with the sea breeze blowing her hair and
the stars in her eyes, you tell her.
c. Tell her what?
9. One weekday morning your wife wakes up feeling ill and asks you to
get your three children ready for school. Your first question to her
is:
a. "Do they need to eat or anything?"
b. "They're in school already?"
c. "There are three of them?"
10. When is it okay to throw away a set of veteran underwear?
a. When it has turned the color of a dead whale and developed new
holes so large that you're not sure which ones were originally
intended for your legs.
b. When it is down to eight loosely connected underwear molecules and
has to be handled with tweezers.
c. It is never okay to throw away veteran underwear. A real guy
checks the garbage regularly in case somebody -- and we are not naming
names, but this would be his wife -- is quietly trying to discard his
underwear, which she is frankly jealous of, because the guy seems to
have a more intimate relationship with it than with her.
11. What, in your opinion, is the most reasonable explanation for the
fact that Moses led the Israelites all over the place for forty years
before they finally got to the Promised Land?
a. He was being tested.
b. He wanted them to really appreciate the Promised Land when they
finally got there.
c. He refused to ask directions.
12. What is the human race's single greatest achievement?
a. Democracy.
b. Religion.
c. Remote control.
How to Score: Give yourself one point for every time you picked answer
"c." A real guy would score at least 10 on this test. In fact, a
real guy would score at least 15, because he would get the special
five-point bonus for knowing the joke about the guy who has
Alzheimer's disease and cancer.
|
| 26.4 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Tue May 27 1997 12:21 | 4 |
| Anyone?
Note 26.1, Manhood definition 2, what are qualities attributed to a
man?
|
| 26.5 | Ephesians 5:28,29 | YUKON::GLENN | | Wed May 28 1997 10:51 | 55 |
|
There are those men that think that the real image if a man is the
macho John Wayne type. But, the real man's type of man, the perfect
example of what a man should be is Jesus.
A lot of men like to think of themselves as a Samson, or an Abraham,
or some other bible man. In some sense we may even see some
characteristice of ourselves in them.
But *imo* the real man, and the man the that new testament believers
strived to be like was Jesus.
Ephesians 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies.
He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Ephesians 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but
nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
I suppose these verses are as good as any to start out with. Love
your wife as your own bodies; nourish them and cherish them.
Nourish - To provide with substances necessary for life and growth.
To foster the developement of; promote.
Cherish - To hold dear.
When we are with our wives, do we try to be life giving? Or is it
more like we are tearing them down or wanting them to serve us
or get us a drink, or tune them out like they aren't there ?
Are we trying to build them up; firstly by listening to how
*their* day went, and secondly by complimenting them on their
accomplishments ? Or can we actually just give them our full
attention and just listen to their thoughts and feelings without
trying to provide what we think are solutions for them ?
O.K. now for the last little piece of those verses.
" Even as the Lord the church"
Think on that for a bit. What did the Lord do for the church?
Did he not lay his life down for it? Did he not serve his
disciples and all mankind ? He (Jesus) washed his disciples feet.
When was the last time that we just drew some bath water for our
wives, or watched the kids to give her a break, or did some
totally unselfish thing for our wives expecting nothing in
return for that act ?
And this is just the beginning......
-JimGle-
|
| 26.6 | Fidelity to our wives | YUKON::GLENN | | Wed May 28 1997 11:25 | 77 |
|
Ephesians 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and
mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two
shall be one flesh.
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one
wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to
hospitality, apt to teach;
1 Timothy 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling
their children and their own houses well.
Want to be considered a good servant in the sight of God and serving
His church? Here's another characteristic that God is looking for
in His men.
One key word in these verses is *one*. As in singular. The woman
that you pledged to be faithful to. That *one* woman that should
and in a sense has become one flesh with you.
Let's face it, the world, T.V., and movies do not promote that
F-word as in Fidelity.
Fidelity - Faithfulness; loyalty. Conformity to truth, accuracy.
We Christian men and believers in God's word have a place to get
their conformity and accuracy of truth. How often do we go there
to get the answers along with getting down on our knees before the
Lord ?
The flip side of Fidelity is infidelity, or adultry.
Matthew 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou
shalt not commit adultery:
Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to
lust after her hath committed adultery with her already
in his heart.
It doesn't need to start with the real act, but just how we look and
lust after a woman. If we as men could just run to the Lord at
this stage and start dealing with it ASAP before him there would be
a lot less trouble. That's what 1 John 1:9 is there for amongst
other verses. We need to be swift to call these thought what they
are, that being "sin" and get before the throne of grace to deal
with it!
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own
lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin:
and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Well, the start of that death can be seen on earth. The death of
a family. The death of all that the husband and wife have worked
for being tossed away in a moment or moments of pleasure. The death
of the good times together. The death of a loving and caring
environment not to mention the damage to the souls.
Proverbs 6:32 But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh
understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.
I wonder if men in general would be so swift to committ adultry if
the laws of this land enacted the punishments from the old testament?
Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another
man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his
neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall
surely be put to death.
-JimGle-
|
| 26.7 | Hindered Prayers | YUKON::GLENN | | Wed May 28 1997 12:12 | 69 |
|
1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to
knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker
vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life;
that your prayers be not hindered.
Although in many respects, women are not as weak as some men perceive
them to be, that still doesn't negate the fact that we should be
honoring our wives. Want to get a taste of their strength? Just
volunteer to run the house and do everything she does for a couple
days; letting her be away from the house a bit and hanging with some
friends...
Anyway, onward. Deal with your wife according to knowledge. That
knowledge that is drawn from the source of truth (Jesus) and the
word. In our goal to be like Jesus we shouldn't just read about
Him, but try to incorporate His truths and character into our
living.
One example: How did he deal with the women caught in adultery?
Jesus' response was not to condemn her, but to have compassion
on her and because of who he was to forgive her.
Take that principle down to a smaller scale. Did your wife forget to
do something or get you agitated or mess things up big time ? The first
impulse is most often to say, boy that was stupid, you messed things
all up, blah, blah, blah.
Let me suggest a different approach: That's O.K.dear. We all mess up but
we're in this together and we'll just do this instead or not bother
at all.
In all honesty, wouldn't we like this response from our wives when we
mess up, and I will be the first to admit that I'm right up there in
the mistake and sinning department.
If we are fortunate to have a born again wife, we are both heirs of
life through Christ. She is just as much a child of God as we are.
A lot of times, our wives are the ones that install the spiritual
foundations and morals in our children. What type of heritage
our we passing along to our children as they see how we treat our
wives, our Lord, our faith, and other christian brothers and sisters
in Christ ?
Lastly, "that your prayers be not hindered."
Ever wonder why your prayers seem to be just bouncing off the ceiling?
How's your relationship with our wife? Have you confessed that
adulterous thought to the Lord ? Are you working on your unity with
your wife for life ?
This could be the very thing that is hindering the breakthrough for
that answer to prayer. The one that will benefit you both, but is
being hindered because of the disunity between you and your wife.
How about that feeling that you're a lone ranger and that God isn't
listening ?
He's listening all right, but are *you* listening and obeying Him
when it comes to how you treat that one who should be your
primary loved one after the Lord.
-JimGle-
|
| 26.8 | kiss and make up | USDEV1::LEVASSEUR | http://www.ultranet.com/~bigbooty/ | Wed May 28 1997 13:36 | 41 |
| re .5 et all
Iinteresing topic. If men did emulate Jesus, there would be
no power brokers, outlaw bikers, drug barons, hi-powered
ruthless x-exutives, military talking heads, etc. The world
would be a much more peaceful place.....but unfortunately...
Murcan myn are raised (to a medium>large extent) to be
Dirty Harry, John Wayne, Arnold, etc. The media drills this
as well as parents, etc, "don't be vulnerable, don't be a sissy,
yadda yadda." It would (only IMHO) take a massive societywide
change of heart for both sexes to be more Christlike.
I agree that women are much stronger in many ways than men;
if not in physical brute strength (sorry if I p* off the
female competative bodybuilders out there). I learned much
about this when I was married. My ex-wife had strengths that
i could not find in myself or other myn. What i got from the
experience was that men and women are meant to be complementary
to one another. Too bad in today's society there's the war of
the sexes...and I am not saying that women do not know their
place, but men are much better suited for some tasks and
women shine above men in many others. I do believe and take
women to be total equals to men, but in different ways. Again
it's a mystery to me, but one was designed and built to complete
the other.
It's too bad we cannot discuss certain lifestyle issues in
here or i would share a tidbit that a friend confided in my over
after he dropped out of one world and got married. Perhaps some
day in my "never to be published book" I can go into great
detail about this stuff.
Sorry for yadda yadda rambling, but it's only my own observation
that since our society has pretty much thrown away the Judeo/
Christian moral code, WYSIWYG, what you see (today) is what you
get.
Well, sigh, i'll pray over it.
ray
|
| 26.9 | Yep, sad but true | YUKON::GLENN | | Wed May 28 1997 16:13 | 52 |
|
re: .8
Hi Ray,
> Iinteresing topic. If men did emulate Jesus, there would be
> no power brokers, outlaw bikers, drug barons, hi-powered
> ruthless x-exutives, military talking heads, etc. The world
> would be a much more peaceful place.....but unfortunately...
I wouldn't go as far as to say no as in none, but your point about
the world being a much more peaceful place is right on. It would be
nice to see that maybe only 25% percent of the men were those ruthless
types that you mentioned. The world would be a lot more palatable.
> Murcan myn are raised (to a medium>large extent) to be
> Dirty Harry, John Wayne, Arnold, etc. The media drills this
> as well as parents, etc, "don't be vulnerable, don't be a sissy,
> yadda yadda." It would (only IMHO) take a massive societywide
> change of heart for both sexes to be more Christlike.
The negative side of the ol' one eyed monster and movie theater
madness for sure.
> Sorry for yadda yadda rambling, but it's only my own observation
> that since our society has pretty much thrown away the Judeo/
> Christian moral code, WYSIWYG, what you see (today) is what you
> get.
Don't be sorry. I appreciate your postings.
What you say is sadly the reality at the moment. But, just because
men choose to toss them or think them false, doesn't change the facts
that they are still true (RE: morals based on Christian truths).
It just makes it a lot harder to persist in the Christ way instead
of the worldly and societies way.
> Well, sigh, i'll pray over it.
Well, this is an example of a manly response :-).
-JimGle-
P.S. < kiss and make up > that's a very good way to start :-).
|
| 26.10 | Hello out there... | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Jun 02 1997 11:07 | 12 |
|
Gee,
Not much activity in this note.
Comments ? Any loving examples and actions?
Are these things worth being accountable for?
-JimGle-
|
| 26.11 | | VMSNET::mickey.alf.dec.com::s_vore | Smile, Mickey's watching! [email protected] | Mon Jun 02 1997 13:40 | 15 |
| Maybe the old adage about men not talking is just true, Glenn.
Another point to go along with .8 etc. is that when men do get
together to discuss God, His commandments, our place in society, how
we can make it better, etc., we're looked upon by society differently
than when women do. I, at least, get the feeling that it's more
"accepted" and "normal" for women to get together, while the
lunchtime group of men is more quickly branded as "fanatics" or
somesuch. That shouldn't, and sometimes doesn't, stop us from
meeting... but I'm sure that it does keep some men from joining when
they'd like to. Peer pressure, men not "opening up" or "discussing
their feelings" or "being sensitive" and all that rot.
-Steven
|
| 26.12 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Mon Jun 02 1997 13:47 | 9 |
| .11
It is also possibly viewed as a not wise career move. I know a
Christian man who led our lunchtime fellowship/Bible study meetings and
quit because he was in line for a "manager's" slot. It was not viewed
well by his peers to be a Christian who actually does something so
outrageous and committed as lead a group one day a week at lunch.
|
| 26.13 | RE: .12 | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Jun 02 1997 14:32 | 20 |
|
Hmm. IMO it would have showed a lot more faith and trust in
God and what Jesus has done for his life to continue on
regardless. If there were a good number of men involved, think
of the faith building that could have taken place has these men
prayed together in unity for this man and seen the results of
their answered prayer. It's these type of lies from the enemy
that steal our strength and zap our effectiveness.
What an opportunity missed to live these verses.
John 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask,
and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my
name, there am I in the midst of them.
-JimGle-
|
| 26.14 | | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Jun 02 1997 14:39 | 17 |
|
RE: .11
Rot as you mentioned for sure. There are very sensitive issues
that a lot of Christian men battle against every day. Most of
the time we battle it alone and sometimes the enemy wins
(or is it mostly?).
It's the ole' isolation technique. Make us think that no other
man is dealing with this, or can be trusted to help, or give us
an answer. Draw the guy away from other guys, and then pig
pile on him with temptations of <insert your weakness>. Stir
it up a little with guilt, trying to hide the sin, brew for
a while, and walla we have painful and shattering problems.
-JimGle-
|
| 26.15 | No time like the present | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Jun 02 1997 14:50 | 21 |
|
So, you Christian men out there. Anybody interested in getting
together with another Christian man or men to start talking with each
other about things ?
Fathers day is this month. Those of you who are fathers, might want
to get together and talk some about what you're going through with
your children. The good and the bad. Maybe even pray for each
other about those things that you share. See what happens....
Those who may not be fathers may have some issues with your dad
or other areas in your life. Give it a shot. Share some of the
easy stuff first.
This might be a good theme for this month. Grab a Christian
brother and pray with/for him about whatever needs he shares
with you. Let him know your praying and keep in touch so you
know when to stop after the answer(s) come in.
-JimGle-
|
| 26.16 | as iron sharpens iron ... | YASHAR::RONNIEB | Debt Free! Thank You, Jesus! | Mon Jun 02 1997 16:29 | 0 |
| 26.17 | | VMSNET::mickey.alf.dec.com::s_vore | Smile, Mickey's watching! [email protected] | Mon Jun 02 1997 16:51 | 3 |
| and let the others here know... groups can pray for other groups as
well (we've been meeting now for a bit over a year)
|
| 26.18 | | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Jun 02 1997 17:45 | 10 |
|
RE: .17
Good idea.
So any that are interested in getting going can pray for the
'alf' group.
-JimGle-
|
| 26.19 | Starting Point(s) | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Jun 02 1997 18:02 | 33 |
|
If anyone is wanting to know how to start, below is a posting from
an organization called Promise Keepers. There are probably some who
may not agree with everything, but rather than just trying to come
up with things, here's a place to start.
THE SEVEN PROMISES OF A PROMISE KEEPER
1. A Promise Keeper is committed to honoring Jesus Christ through
worship, prayer and obedience to God's Word in the power of the Holy
Spirit.
2. A Promise Keeper is committed to pursuing vital relationships with a
few other men, understanding that he needs brothers to help him keep
his promises.
3. A Promise Keeper is committed to practicing spiritual, moral, ethical,
and sexual purity.
4. A Promise Keeper is committed to building strong marriages and
families through love, protection and biblical values.
5. A Promise Keeper is committed to supporting the mission of his church
by honoring and praying for his pastor, and by actively giving his
time and resources.
6. A Promise Keeper is committed to reaching beyond any racial and
denominational barriers to demonstrate the power of biblical unity.
7. A Promise Keeper is committed to influencing his world, being obedient
to the Great Commandment (see Mark 12:30-31) and the Great Commission
(see Matthew 28:19-20 ).
|
| 26.20 | | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Jun 02 1997 18:46 | 31 |
| Hi Jim,
For ahwile I was going to Christian meetings made up of people
with various addictions. It was a forum for talking about our
problems, but within the context of God's desire and ability to
recover us.
I ended up stopping because my work hours changed and it was more
important to spend more time with my family. But, it was pretty
good and I definitely think Christianity as a whole is not reaching
out to sufficiently offer people with problems to be able to find
help in acknowledgment - that sort of thing.
I think a men's thing would be a good thing. It doesn't particularly
grip me real hard because I am more generic generaly speaking. That
is, there are enough issues I need to deal with that I see as people
issues.
But, anyway, I could maybe handle getting together for lunch somewhere
once every other week or else having a .dis list of men who want to
chat. A getting together thing might be hard for me until my work
hours change. I work Sun/Mon/Tues/every other Wed from 8 AM - 8 PM,
but my hours will change to regular Mon thru Fri 8-5.
Intellectually speaking, I feel I have a half-way idea of what it means
to be a man, but I have my hangups. Putting into practise is the real
challenge. Like I can get real mad sometimes. Dealing with anger.
Dealing with so many things it seems that a lot of men have a behavorial
problems for whatever reason.
Tony
|
| 26.21 | | VMSNET::mickey.alf.dec.com::s_vore | Smile, Mickey's watching! [email protected] | Tue Jun 03 1997 09:10 | 5 |
| we found that the best way to get us men started is to have a book
(such as 7 Promises) that's got questions at the end of each chapter.
Questions and discussion points to get us started and over that
inital "we're men, we don't need to talk" hump (though some are more
self-starters in discussing than others:-)
|