Conference yukon::christian

    From the American Heritage Dictionary:
    
    Womanhood - 1. The state of being a woman.
                2. Woman's nature.
                3. Womankind.
    
    Woman     - 1. An adult female human being.
                2. Women collectively; womankind.
                3. Feminine quality or aspect; womanliness.
    
    Womanly   - Having or showing qualities or characteristics considered
                typical of, suitable for, or admirable in women.
    
    Female    - Of or characteristic of the sex that produces ova or bears
                young.
    
    Feminine  - 1. Of or belonging to the female sex.
                2. Marked by qualities attributed to women.
    
    I entered the above definitions to establish common human understanding
    and use of terms.
    
    Now, where does woman find true identity and purpose?  Nancy has asked
    us to compare and contrast our opinions with Scripture.

    "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and
    let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of
    the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every
    creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in His
    own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created
    He them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and
    multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion
    over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every
    living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have
    given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of the earth,
    and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to
    you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every
    fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
    wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it
    was so." (Ge.1:26-31, KJV)
    
    "And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to
    every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet
    for him. And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he
    slept: and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead
    thereof; And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made He a
    woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of
    my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Isha (Woman),
    because she was taken out of Ish (Man). Therefore shall a man leave his
    father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall
    be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were
    not ashamed." (Ge.2:20-25)
    
    "In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made He him;
    Male and female created He them, and called their name Adam, in the day
    when they were created." (Ge.5:1&2, KJV)
    
    Observation:  Man created in God's image is male and female.
    
    Hypothesis:  God's likeness is seen in man and woman together.
    
    Woman was in man from the beginning, and man saw himself incomplete
    without woman.  Apart from man there was no woman, and apart from woman
    would there be no more man.  In the beginning, man and woman together
    were given dominion over every other living thing, but not over each
    other.

    
    
    
    
    My husband and I are both Christians who have strayed far from the
    Lord.  I am trying to find my way back.  Part of what I feel I am being
    called to do is to be submissive to my husband but I am not exactly
    sure this independant feminist is capable.
    
    I am frustrated because I have asked several people for help and always
    just told to "pray" and read the bible.  That's wonderful but it doesnt
    really help me to understand what submission truly is. I really dont
    think I can just blindly obey someone, especially someone who is not
    right with the Lord himself..
    
    
    I would really like my husband to take headship of the home, but he
    seems to want all the authority and none of the responsibility.  As I
    said he is not right with the  Lord either, and yet I feel this may
    actually be the way which he is led back.
    
    Any insights which you may have would be appreciated.
    
    
    

I've sat here for a minute trying to figure out how to address you.  "Dear
anonymous noter?" just sounds sort of odd, but I didn't want to just start. 
But I guess I will anyway... :-)

It makes me kind of sad that no one has been able to respond to your request,
but I guess it doesn't surprise me.  This is an area where in our age people
tend to feel strongly in one direction or the other, and I think we frequently
miss the real point.  You seem to be straddling the fence between the two 
views - feminist indepence and biblical submission - and I applaud your
willingness and desire to seek to apply what the Bible says to your life,
despite the fact that you recognize that it's not a good fit with your natural
self.  Boy, can I ever relate! :-)

Essentially, I'm not really qualified to tell you how to do this particular
portion of obedience to Christ, because I'm a man.  Men have been telling women
how they should do this - and I believe interpreting it wrongly - for millenia.
The last thing anyone needs is another man spouting that women should submit to
their husbands, even if they say it differently than most men.

I'll include below something I wrote a couple of years ago.  It's addressed
mostly to men, but it's about the biblical roles of both men and women.  I'd
say some of this a bit differently if I re-wrote it now, but I'm not going to. 
I've thought about it some more and have some more nuances, but I'll write
those another time.

           <<< RGNET::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN_V7.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< The CHRISTIAN Notesfile >-
===============================================================================
Note 708.207                       Patriarchy                        207 of 249
PAULKM::WEISS "For I am determined to know nothing, except..."  109 lines  
25-APR-1995 15:29:50.76
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I've hesitated about entering this note, because there's a potential big
rathole that can be taken from it.  I'd like to ask, if you don't agree that
the Bible gives instructions to men/women wives/husbands, for the moment at
least, could you not draw us down that rathole?

I want to address, from a Biblical perspective, what has become a christian
'norm' for husband/wife relations, and how that matches up with what the
Bible calls us to, or more specifically how it DOESN'T match up.  People look
at how women are treated in supposedly 'Christian' contexts, and are quite
rightly appalled.  That treatment of women is then often defended, when it is
really indefensible from a Biblical standpoint or from any standpoint.  And
then because people react to that defense, the whole Biblical model of
male/female relations gets tossed, which is a tragedy.

Let's assume, for the moment, that the Bible calls BOTH husbands and wives to
sacrifice themselves for the other, but in slightly different forms.  First
addressing the New Testament assertions of equality before the Lord, there is
Eph 5:21, which exhorts ALL believers to 'submit'� to each other.  There is
Gal 3:28, which proclaims that in Christ there is neither male nor female. 
There is 1 Cor 7:3-5, that proclaims equally that the husband's body belongs
partly to the wife, and the wife's body belongs partly to the husband.  There
is 1 Pet 3:7 that identifies that wives are co-heirs to the gracious gift of
life in Jesus.  I'm sure there is more, and there's certainly more in the Old
Testament.  And there are numerous passages that call us to sacrifice
ourselves for others in general, not just for our spouses.

So far, so good, and I think everyone is probably still with me.  :-)  The
Bible also gives some more specific commands to wives and to husbands.  These
are a bit more controversial.  Again, if you disagree that these commands are
given, could we talk about that another time?

The specific command to wives is to focus on and excel in the 'submission'
that all believers are called to, to the point of sacrificing themselves. 
Scriptures which assert this are Eph 5:22-24, Col 3:18, Tit 2:4-5, and
especially 1 Peter 3:1-6, which calls wives to focus on the beauty of "the
inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of
great worth in God's sight." 

The specific command to husbands is to focus on and excel in the 'loving'
that all believers are called to, to the point of sacrificing themselves. 
Scriptures which assert this are Col 3:19, 1 Pet 3:7, and especially Eph
5:25-33, which calls husbands to "love your wives, just as Christ loved the
church and gave himself up for her."

Now it's important to note that both of these are, essentially, sealed
orders.  Wives have their orders from the Master, which are for them and for
them alone.  Husbands have their orders from the Master, which in the same
manner are for them and them alone.  There's nothing in these orders giving
authority to the spouses to see that they are followed.  There's nothing that
says: "Wives, it's up to you to make sure your husbands love you and give
themselves up for you."  Nor is there anything that says "Husbands, it's up
to you to make sure your wife submits to you."  The orders are directed
specifically to the people who must obey them, not to their spouses.

What men have in fact done, historically, by virtue of superior strength and
power positions, is to tear up their own orders unread, snatch their wives
orders out of their hands, and then beligerently hold their wives to those
orders, while completely ignoring the orders that were for them.  Men in
supposedly bible-believing Christian churches have asserted again and again
for centuries (millenia, now) that their wives should submit to them -
demanding it, enforcing it with ridicule, shame, and violence.  Self-
righteously, they have used it as a spiritual club to keep women in a
position not of submission, but inferiority.  And all the time the men have
done little or none of the "giving up their lives" for their wives that Jesus
has called *them* to.

It's one of the great tragedies of Christianity, and *long* overdue for
correction.

But compounding that tragedy is the way that it is now being corrected. 
After centuries of having their husbands tear up the orders they were
supposed to follow, and then insist that their wives should still follow
theirs, women are now moving into a stage of tearing up their own orders, and
saying, in effect "You won't follow yours, so we won't follow ours, either." 
Male/female relationships are now being completely destroyed because
*neither* are following God's plan any more.

Perhaps it's necessary.  I don't know how to get men to stop trying to get
their wives to follow the orders for them and instead focus on their own
orders without shaking the men up.  But I fear that this method, instead of
shaking men into re-examining how *they* should be following the Lord, will
just result in destruction.  Or if the men finally do figure it out, then
their wives will no longer be interested in following their orders any more,
and we'll switch from one imbalance to the other.

What I think is most critical is for men to focus on *ignoring* the Biblical
mandates for their wives altogether.  So the Bible says they should be in
submission, and so they are not following that mandate.  As Jesus said to
Peter on the beach "What is that to you?  You follow me."  Jesus did not
demand that people submit to Him.  Far from it, He allowed Himself to be
nailed to a tree and put to a horrible death to *call* people to submit to
Him.  Men's orders are to do exactly the same thing - to literally die for
their wives, and not just in some relatively easy, done quickly and gotten
over with way like stepping in front of a bus for them.  But the much more
difficult path of daily, for a lifetime, giving up, sacrificing, doing
anything for their wives out of love.  And to do it *BEFORE* their wives
decide to follow what Christ as called them to.  Men are to emulate Christ,
and "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Rom 5:8)  We are to
die, daily if necessary, for our wives, while they as yet are not loving us
as Christ commands.

Perhaps if enough men start following our orders soon, before too many
christian wives believe the lie that they shouldn't follow their orders
either, we can restore Christian marriage (on a large scale, there have
always been a few who have figured it out) to God's design.

Paul

� Greek "A voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back to 1997......

I'd note just two things to consider based on that:

 - Even though they have been misinterpreted for you for ages by men, those
   ARE still your orders from the King of Kings.

 - Remember John 21:22.  Peter has just received a commision from Jesus, and
   the first thing he does is turn around and point to John and say "What about
   him?"  Jesus' response is, essentially, "What *about* him?  You follow me."

   The good news is that how well YOU follow the Lord's will is not at the
   mercy of what your husband - or anyone else - does.  You can still follow
   the Lord perfectly (well, none of us can do that :-) regardless of what your
   husband does.  The form of following the Lord will be different - you might
   be called to do one thing if you were in full partnership under the Lord
   with your husband, and something completely different if your husband is, as
   you say, "not right with the Lord," but there is still a perfect path of
   obedience to Jesus no matter what anyone does.

Paul

    I do agree with many things that Paul said in .4 but I also feel that
    those "orders" were given for Christians.  In order to make the
    Biblical model work, both spouses should be trying to get closer to the
    Lord.  In the situation in .3, I would suggest starting off by
    attempting to get the husband closer to the Lord.  Let your actions be
    a witness for Christ.  If you try to do it yourself then you will fail
    but if you pray and let the Lord lead you then you may succeed.  I wish
    I could give a guarantee but I hope this is a start.

    Go ahead Mike, what does this scripture mean to you?

    The household is view as sanctified because of the woman's position in
    Christ.  Sanctified as in protected as Lot was in Sodom.
    
    1 Peter 3:1-7 has much to say too on how the woman's behavior can be a
    testimony to attract the spouse to Christ.
    
    As for their past difficulties, I would recommend 3 things:
    
    1. Don't change it, challenge it.  Change the trend.
    2. Don't bury it, build on it.  Like Jerusalem.
    3. Don't mourn it, let it adorn you as a testimony to Christ.

    Talk about 1 Peter 3:1-7.  Can you post the scripture?

    
    
    1 Peter 3:1  Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands;
    	that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be 
    	won by the conversation of the wives;
    1 Peter 3:2  While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with
    	fear.
    1 Peter 3:3  Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of
    	plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of 
    	apparel;
    1 Peter 3:4  But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which
    	is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, 
    	which is in the sight of God of great price.
    1 Peter 3:5  For after this manner in the old time the holy women also,
    	who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto 
    	their own husbands:
    1 Peter 3:6  Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose
    	daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with 
    	any amazement.
    1 Peter 3:7  Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to
    	knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, 
    	and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers 
    	be not hindered.
    

    Here are my margin notes for 1 Peter 3:1-7...
    
    - Truths apply to both saved and unsaved spouses.
    
    Guidelines for unsaved spouse
    -----------------------------
    1. Realize you can't save your spouse - only Jesus can.
    2. Respect them.  They aren't spiritually dumb; ask them spiritual
       questions.
    3. Bomb them with prayer, not the Bible.  Don't preach at them.
    4. Walk louder than you talk.
    5. Brag don't nag.
    
    Men & Women
    -----------
    1. Communicate differently.  Men typically communicate facts as
       feelings.  Women typically communicate feelings as facts.  
    2. Weaker vessel = more precious.  Men are clay pots; Women are 
       crystal/fine china.  They are more delicate in an admirable way.
    
    - Men living with your wife in an understanding way includes being
      aware of communication differences, recognizing mood swings and
      knowing why they happen.  It is important enough for the Holy Spirit
      to specifically address this need in men.
    
    - Marital Strife hinders prayer (Colossians 3:23-24, 2 Thess. 3:1).
      Respect goes both ways for harmony between man, wife, and God.
    
    - Law of forgiveness is the inherited blessing (v. 9): Matt. 18:21-35,
      Luke 10:5-6.

Posted with Permission
    
                [email protected]

                            March 14 

                  The "One Flesh" Challenge 

                       by Barbara Rainey 

             And the two shall become one flesh. 

                               Ephesians 5:31 

    As a wife, I believe the Bible calls me to commit to my husband in a
    mutually fulfilling sexual relationship-to truly become "one flesh"
    with my husband. That means I need to understand his needs and desires
    in this area. 

    My husband's sexual needs should be more important and higher on my
    priority list than menus, housework, projects, activities-even the
    children. A friend shared something with me that I think puts the
    sexual dimension of a man in a biblical perspective. A man can send his
    clothes to the laundry, eat all of his meals out, find companionship
    with friends, be accepted and respected at work, be listened to by a
    counselor and in all those things not go against the will of God. But
    if he meets his sexual needs with someone other than his wife, it is
    sin. 

    I believe that many wives don't really understand how important the act
    of "becoming one" is to our husbands. We make time for the PTA, church
    work and helping a child with homework. Think about it: How often do
    you set aside time to be together? It may be a weekend getaway or a
    romantic dinner in your bedroom. 

    Perhaps one of the most "spiritual" acts a wife might need to do is put
    the kids to bed and invite her husband to go to bed early. 


    Discuss: At an appropriate time, ask your husband to share his needs in
    this area. You might want to share what would create sexual fulfillment
    in your marriage. 

    Pray: Ask God to help you both better understand one another's needs
    and how you can act to meet them on a regular basis. 

                                                                                  
                [email protected]
                Copyright 1996) FamilyLife
                All rights reserved
    

    A wonderful attitude but hopefully her husband is just as unselfish.

    When God speaks of a woman submitting to her spouse, does that mean
    only if He is godly?  Scripture please?

    Submit to your husband as you would submit to the Lord.  The Lord is
    not going to ask you to do ungodly things.  An ungodly husband can ask
    for ungodly things (even a Godly husband can but when both are Godly
    then they should submit one to another).
    

	The problem here is one can trust in the Lord and KNOW that they are
doing the right thing. One doesn't always know that when submitting to a human
being. And depending on what congregation you belong to, different variances
will occur as to what is Godly and what is not. I think Nancy's note she
started can show some light on this subject.



Glen

    .15
    
    By your line of reasoning how do you deal with I Peter 3, where God
    commands a godly wife to submit to her ungodly/unsaved husband?
    
    

	You don't really want me to answer that, do you?

    Glen, if your response is Biblically based, then there is reason and
    room for dialogue.  If not, then your response cannot lead towards any
    real understanding because our basis for dialogue is not the same.  I
    don't want to get on a round circle of debate with anyone on this
    subject, but I am willing to discuss what the Bible says though.
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy

	I ran it by Nancy, and she said it could be posted. So don't yell at
me! :-)


	If a woman meets a man and becomes nothing more than friends, and he 
leads her down the wrong path, she must leave this person. If this person is
her husband, she must obey. Once contradicts the other, doesn't it?



Glen

Well, one situation has a solemn covenant of lifetime fideltity, through good
times and bad, and the other has no commitment at all but only a casual
friendship.

So why is it surprising to you that the actions in the two situations are
different?  There's no contradiction there; it's comparing apples and rocks. 
(i.e., apples and oranges, only even MORE different)

Paul

	If both are leading down the same wrong path, why is one acceptable?
Both paths are wrong. Lets say the path was to assist in a suicide. Why is one
ok, the other not? Being a friend or being the married mate in no way changes
that assisting in a suicide is wrong. 

    Hmm, interesting.  Ok lets use an extreme example.  Lets say the
    man tells the woman that they are going to go rob a bank.  
    
    Paul, are you saying that if the wife does this thats ok?
    
    
    Jill
    

    RE: .22, .23
    
    The context of the question has been changed.  Glen's original question
    was worded such a way as obey=stay.
    
    That is how Paul answered.  Sticking by husband despite his actions.
    
    Now both Glen and Jill, you are posing a different question.  That 
    being obeying the husband by committing acts that are illegal or 
    immoral.
    
    In your case Jill if the husband was the only one who robbed the bank 
    and the wife was not involved, then the answer that Paul gave still holds 
    true. Don't jettison the man as in divorce, ride out the storm.  
    
    So Glen, your first question was answered.
    
    Your next question, if I understand it properly is:
    
    What should the woman do if her husband asks her to do an act that
    is legally or moraly (I will define as biblically based truth)
    wrong?
    
    

| <<< Note 25.24 by YUKON::GLENN >>>

| The context of the question has been changed.  

	Yes, by you.

| Glen's original question was worded such a way as obey=stay.

	No, obey=ok if married.

| Now both Glen and Jill, you are posing a different question.  That
| being obeying the husband by committing acts that are illegal or immoral.

	Actually, the wrong path could have meant just that. I know it did for
*me* when I wrote it. I did not originally give an example because people have
a tendency to say they will not address hypothetical situations. I figured
"wrong path" would cover all asspects. 

| So Glen, your first question was answered.

	No, not as of yet.

| What should the woman do if her husband asks her to do an act that
| is legally or moraly (I will define as biblically based truth)
| wrong?

	It is also the 1st question. :-)

So what SHOULD a wife do if a husband is asking her to do something
questionable?

To be flat-out honest:  I don't really know.  How's that for a cop-out?

The clear and obvious and intuitive response - partly conditioned by our
current culture, but partly more than that - is to say "No, of course not. 
Absolutely out of the question."  And you can pull out scripture to support
that idea: "We must obey God rather than men." Acts 5:29  And, by the way,
that is the response that (mostly) seems right to me, from what I understand
of the Word.

But then there's this odd thing: in 1 Pet 3, the example of a Godly wife is
SARAH!  Of all people!  I mean, what about Ruth?  She's a great example of a
Godly woman, who always did what was right.  

But that's not who Peter, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, chose.  He
chose to model a Godly wife with Sarah - the one who (TWICE, yet!) obeyed
Abram's stupid and immoral idea of telling people she was his sister (Gen
12:10-20, Gen 20), and who actually let herself be led away with Pharaoh and
then with Abimelech.  God had to rescue her both times by sending plagues on
the people who had (unknowingly) taken a married woman for themselves.

Would any of us counsel a woman to obey her husband in such a stupid and
immoral scheme, to the point of allowing herself to be led away by these
other men?  I sure wouldn't.  Yet Sarah is held up as being the prime example
of a Godly wife.

My guess is that a Godly response is somewhat different than our intuition
would suggest.  How different, I don't know.  And I think I'll complete my
cop-out here. :-)

Please don't take this as my telling women they should obey their husbands to
that extreme.  Men have been mis-interpreting women's 'orders' in the Word
for them for millenia, and I have NO desire to add to that tradition.  I'm
simply noting that the example given in the Word of what a Godly woman is
like has some rather thought-provoking implications.

Paul

    This subject is one that goes to the very core of human values.  It is
    often avoided amongst the most religious, either out of fear or perhaps
    a lack of real understanding the Bible's directives. Does the Biblically
    defined role devalue women?  Do Christians really live this stuff? 
    How do pride and ego affect our understanding of Christian women's
    roles? Is God really just?  Are men and women equal?  Should men and
    women have equal rights?  How do we define marital relationship rights
    and responsibilities, as well as in our societal legal system?  
    Should women have the same pay for the same performed job as men?
    
    Understanding God and His ways often escapes even the most learned of
    mankind.  Terms such as you put "God in a box", "Narrow-minded",
    "Liberal-minded" and "Right-wing-fundamentalist" are all icons of both
    Christian and non-Christian critics of Biblical morality.  But in all
    cases the elements which causes labels to be branded on the Christian
    are; fear, anger, insecurity, rejection, ego, pride, ignorance,
    righteous indignation and intolerance.  Most everyone thinks that their
    belief system and the basis of their beliefs i.e, personal
    interpretation of Bible, familial instruction, common sense or
    experience is pure and therefore there is no room for misperception.
    
    I have not yet met a person with whom I wholehearted agree on every
    subject under the sun.  Have you?  And I have especially never met
    anyone with whom either wholeheartedly agrees with me or I with them on
    the subject of women's defined Biblical roles.
    
    I have come to believe that life is not about being in total agreement
    between ourselves, but to be in agreement with God, which while is an
    absolute being, has chosen to reveal himself to each of us in many
    different ways.  His first and most powerful way was through Jesus. 
    And after Jesus' ascension, his second and equally powerful way is
    through the Holy Spirit.  Now understanding the tangible Christ is much
    easier than understanding the intangible Spirit of God.  
    
    But why is this?  Why do we question each other on the spiritual
    discernments and why are there so many varities of discernments?  Why
    in fact are many of these discernments which are equally based on
    scripture return with a different resolve?
    
    Will continue in next note.

    1Timothy 4:1  Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter
    times  some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing
    spirits, and  doctrines of devils;
    
    Eph 6:11  Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand
    against the  wiles of the devil.  12  For we wrestle not against flesh
    and blood, but against principalities,  against powers, against the
    rulers of the darkness of this world, against  spiritual wickedness in
    high places. 
    
    God warns us that not all "spirits" are godly.  We are in a constant
    battle between evil and good spirits vying for their position in our
    hearts.  I believe it is because of this that many Christians battle
    other Christians on doctrine, truth and worship practices.
    
    Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not 
    prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in
    thy name  done many wonderful works?  23  And then will I profess unto
    them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye  that work iniquity. 
        
    We can often dismiss someone's way of worship or belief by attributing
    these verses to their doctrine and believe them to be heretical lies
    leading others to the doorway of eternal damnation.
    
    Now it has been near 2000 years later and Christians are still battling
    over their doctrinal identity, which now includes the role of Christian
    women.  Who are we and why does the world's position on women feel
    better than the Bibles?  Why does their seem to be such a conflict?
    What is the magic formula that allows a woman to submit to her husband
    in all things?  What and in whom should she be trusting to meet her
    needs?  Is this person who meets her needs the one that gives her
    value or takes away her value?  Is it God or her husband?
    
    In whom did Sarah trust when Abraham passed her off as his sister?  In
    whom does the saved spouse trust as she exhibits humility before her
    unsaved spouse?  And what kind of faith must one have to believe that
    God would expect a Christian woman to submit to her husband even if he
    were to lead her down an ungodly path?
    
    It would take the faith of a woman whose relationship to God far
    surpassed her relationship to man.  It would take the faith of a woman
    who takes risks with her belief in God.  Who would defy man's
    interpretation of a woman's rights and hold onto her Biblical promise
    that God honors and protects her even when her intellectual reasoning
    and common sense would tell her otherwise.  The woman who will do this
    is a woman who's trust in God is so strong that she may be labeled a
    professional victim, co-dependent or even emotionally unstable.  
    
    I believe that there are few who call themselves Christian today that
    truly believe God is real to the point they are willing to test their
    faith.  
    
    God does not tell us to obey our husbands only when they are right.  It
    cannot be possible.  Are you always right when you expect your children
    to obey you?  Our humanity, our sinful nature must certainly offer
    witness enough to express that our obedience to our husbands is giving
    allegience to God, not man.  
    
    In conclusion, I wanted to note that in our spiritual battle the only
    weapon offered that can wound is the sword of Spirit, which is the Word
    of God.  By using the Bible as our weapon of offense we are assured
    that our battle bears fruit.  For God says in Isaiah 55:11, "So shall
    my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto
    me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall
    prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    .28
    
    Amen Paul!  :-)

    God does not tell us to obey our husbands only when they are right.  It
    cannot be possible.  Are you always right when you expect your children
    to obey you?  Our humanity, our sinful nature must certainly offer
    witness enough to express that our obedience to our husbands is giving
    allegience to God, not man.  
    

      Hi Nance,
    
        I really appreciated .31.  Just want to say that I don't think
        the role of submission implies in any way inferiority.  I don't
        think one has anything at all to do with the other.  And the 
        only way submission can be *perceived* to correlate with
        inferiority is if our perception is partially mistaken due to
        sin (selfishness).
    
        I tend to think this is one of those things where personal 
        discernment is key.  Maybe in some matters a woman is ultimately
        obedient to God if she submits to her husband in something that
        is wrong (I don't know).  But, I also believe that this does
        not apply to every circumstance.
    
        We could give so much credence to the simple idea of submitting
        our hearts to the promptings of the Holy Spirit!
    
    						Tony

    "Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the Church".
    
    If a husband does not love his wife as Christ loved the Church, does
    that make any difference to a wifes obedience?
    
Peter.

    
    
    RE: .35
    
    The wifes obediance to her husband IMO should at least start from 
    this verse for this particular case.
    
    1 Peter 3:1  Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands;
    		that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the 
    		word be won by the conversation of the wives;
    
    I suppose Peter, I could ask a similar question like you did but 
    addressing the man's response.
    
    Should any man not try to love his wife as Christ loved the church
    because our wife is or appears to be disobedient to the Lord or not 
    saved ?
    
    1 Timothy 3:11  Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers,
    			sober, faithful in all things.
    
    
    It seems to me that a lot of this note has been focusing on reasons
    or instances why a woman may want to consider going against 
    what scripture seems to be indicating here.
    
    How about some postings on instances where a woman might find a 
    way through the Lord to follow the intend of these verses.
    
    There are several that I can think of right away that are so
    simple and might mean a lot to their husbands.
    
    					-JimGle-
    
    

    How about "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers.  For what do
    righteousness and wickedness ahve in common?  Or what fellowship can
    light have with darkness?" to start.

    .37
    
    It is my belief that if a Christian knowingly marries a non-Christian,
    it is sin.  And there are consequences, but the vow of marriage is
    still sacred to God.  And I Peter is for both the Christian who sinned
    in marriage and the believer who comes to know Christ after marriage.

    1 Corinthians 7:14
    For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and
    the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing
    husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they
    are holy.