Conference yukon::christian

    The next version of the Christian notefile has finally arrived.
    
    I am in the process of moving over two notes that were active from
    last week #959 Romans 4. and #960 - Final Quest.
    
    The previous version of Christian is still on YUKON and is 
    YUKON::CHRISTIAN_V7.NOTE and is also write locked.
    
    					Thanks,
    					Jim Glenn
    

Welcome,

    Since the new Christian conference has the same name, the seen/unseen
    maps will not work properly. To fix the seen/unseen maps, enter the
    following commands: 


Notes> MOD ENTRY CHRISTIAN /FILE=YUKON::CHRISTIAN_V7
Notes> ADD ENTRY YUKON::CHRISTIAN

�    Since the new Christian conference has the same name, the seen/unseen
�    maps will not work properly. To fix the seen/unseen maps, enter the
�    following commands: 

'scuse me .... also needs:


Notes> MOD ENTRY CHRISTIAN /FILE=YUKON::CHRISTIAN_V7  /NAME=CHRISTIAN_V7
Notes> ADD ENTRY YUKON::CHRISTIAN		!     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The addition of changing the entry name is so that it leaves room to add 
the new CHRISTIAN file!

And you dont' really need the "!     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^" bit...!

If you've already done the:
	Notes> MOD ENTRY CHRISTIAN /FILE=YUKON::CHRISTIAN_V7 
and are sticking over the:
	Notes> ADD ENTRY YUKON::CHRISTIAN
You need to do an:
	Notes> MOD ENTRY CHRISTIAN /NAME=CHRISTIAN_V7

 - then it will let you add the new CHRISTIAN conference!

						;-) 
							Andrew

    Brothers and Sisters,
    
    I have received a new prophesy for the West Coast which I
    believe is relevant, but I do not feel would be proper to
    place for all to see due to its intensity.  If anyone is
    interested in receiving this prophesy, send me an e-mail
    and I will e-mail in return.
    
    Remember, there is no safety except in the Lord and there 
    is no provision except in His will.
    
    Larry

    I was blessed today with the opportunity to meet my man, Ace Lopez.  We
    ate lunch together and spent most of the time talking about our Lord's
    work in our lives.
    
    The sense I had in note 17.41 was confirmed--Ace is a good man as Psalm
    112 describes.
    
    Folks, we're in a wonderful family.  Let's try to see our Father's
    likeness in each other.  The glimpse I caught in Ace today was
    refreshing.
    
    /Wayne

re.5

Wayne, you are too kind.

You refreshed me today, brother.

Thank you for sharing your Christ with me.

"Behold how good and pleasant it is, for brethren to dwell together in
unity, it is like the precious ointment..." (Psalm ??)


Ace

    Hey I met Ace and he never said nothing nice about me! :-(
    
    :-) x 100

    Well, ya gotta get your view of virgins straight! :-)

8*)  8*)

    That's Psalm 133, Ace.
    
    Thanks.
    
    /Wayne

    ACE, you gonna let him say that??? :-)    
    

    Ace, I'm embarrassed!  How could I not have remembered "The normal
    Christian Life?"
    
    Private joke, folks.  But not really.

    re: virgins and such
    
    <sound of hand smacking forehead> * Harry mutters "oy gevalt!"

re.12

Ah yes, Wayne. "The Normal Christian Life". A classic indeed.

Ace

    I will be leaving shortly to attend a funeral of a deacon from our
    church.  And then from about 1-5 I'll be working from home.
    
    Nancy

    My copy has a lowercase n in normal.  I think Nee intended that. :-)
    
    /Wayne

re.16

My copy has a capital "N" but I think you are right.

8*)

    How old is your copy?  Mine was published more than 30 years ago.
    
    No big deal.  Just curious.
    
    /Wayne

re.18

Mine has a picture of the Grand Tetons on the front. I think
you must have one of the very first english translated 
versions. Plain cover, no frills? A collector's item no doubt.  8*)

ace

    Not so glorious as that, me thinks.
    
    Third edition, paperback 1963.  The book was compiled and first
    published in Bombay in 1957.
    
    "The normal Christian Life," in fact, was the companion text with "He
    That Is Spiritual" by Lewis Sperry Chafer in one of my undergraduate
    courses.
    
    /Wayne

    Lord I'm ready now
    I'm waiting for your triumphant return
    Your coming so soon
    This world has nothing for me
    I find my peace and joy solely in you
    Only in you
    I want the world to see that you're alive and living well in me
    Let me be a part of the harvest
    For the days are few
    He's coming soon
    
    {Chorus}
    |: So people get ready
    Jesus is coming
    Soon we'll be going home
    People get ready
    Jesus is coming
    To take from the world His own :|
    
    There will be a day
    When we will be divided right and left
    For those who know Him
    And those who do not know
    Those who know Him well
    Will meet Him in the air, Hallelujah!
    God is with us
    Those who do not know
    They will hear "Depart I knew you not."
    For my friends you see
    There will be a day when we'll be counted
    So know Him well, know Him well

    Who is He...
    The mightiest of all
    Who is He...
    Creation trembles at His call
    Who is He...
    The lowly sacrifice
    Who paid a victim's price
    His name is Jesus
    
    {Chorus}
    Jesus!
    From the Father's own right hand
    Jesus!
    Son of God and son of man
    Jesus!
    Who died and rose again
    Jesus!
    He's the Lion and the Lamb
    
    Who is He...
    With the power none can tame
    Who is He...
    That every foe would fear His name
    Who is He...
    Who was humbly led away
    To suffer that dark day
    His name is Jesus
    
    {bridge}
    He's the Lamb that was slain
    He's the Lion that reigns
    My Savior and King both the same
    
    Who is He...
    With the eyes that burn like fire
    Who is He...
    Oh the wonder He inspires
    Who is He...
    Who bore the guilt and shame
    For the ones who'd gone astray
    His name is Jesus

    re .22
    
    Mike, I don't recognize that one.  What cd is it on?
    
    
    Jill
    

    Hello Michael!  How have you been?  I saw your name fly at the bottom
    of my screen as I entered into IAT. :-)  I said, Hi, did you hear me?

    Jill, they are from the new CD by Crystal Lewis - the little lady with
    the *HUGE* voice.  If you've ever been to a Harvest Crusade, or
    listened to a Maranatha Praise Band CD, you've heard her.

    Mike, thanks.  I might just have to get that one.
    
    

	Just saw on the tube that more and more teens are turning towards
religion. That they are finding it 'cool'. That's a good thing!

 There are a lot of things out there today called "religion", some of which
 my teenaged son finds "cool".  It is anything but "cool" according to
 God's Word.



 Jim

re.27

Hi Glen,

Well it's certainly better than drugs, immorality, mosh pits 
or a host of other things kids get into nowadays. Though in 
the end if they haven't turned to Christ their religion will
be to no avail.

Regards,
Ace

	Jim, some were towards Christ, some were not.

	Ace.... can you say that in DEC?

	Oh yeah.... one kid said right out front that she needs Jesus in her
life, which I thought was cool.....

    a lot of teens are smoking today too...
    
    At least if they are accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior,
    that's encouraging.

    Glen, what did Ace say that you thought DEC might not approve?
    
    Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
    the Father, but by me." (Jn.14:6)
    
    Actually, Ace said nothing that could not have been said in (the old)
    DEC, but your point is well taken about (the new) Digital. :-)
    
    On earth Truth is regarded rarely, if ever, as "politically correct."
    
    As a matter of fact, Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to send
    peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to
    set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her
    mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's
    foes shall be they of his own household (or company)." (Mt.10:34-36)
    Parenthetical comment mine. :-)

    I know that many of the "religions" of choice for teenagers today is
    in fact witchcraft.
    
    

 yep.

| <<< Note 14.33 by ROCK::PARKER >>>

| Glen, what did Ace say that you thought DEC might not approve?

	Putting down another religion. I did not think that was allowed in DEC.

    Jimbo,
    
    I don't see Ace putting down anybody's religion.  I see him offering a
    word that states Truth versus truth.  Now anyone can say that they have
    Truth and someone else doesn't and I've heard it an enormous amount of
    times in other conferences against Christianity, however, I've never
    taken it as an insult, merely as someone elses view of things.
    
    Nancy

    Did Ace "put down" another religion, or did he rather exalt Christ?

 I deleted .37



 Jim

    Why?

	Nancy, for the same reasons one can't talk about certain subjects in
here is why that should not be allowed. While it may be something that you
believe to be true, DEC doesn't allow that kind of judgement.

I know I probably shouldn't do this, but I'm really curious.....

Glen, I REALLY don't get your objection.  Actually, I do get it, but have
never seen you pursue it to this level before.

All Ace said was:

>in the end if they haven't turned to Christ their religion will be to no
>avail.

Yet you are objecting to that.  There is no specific put-down of any kind,
just a speaking of the Truth that Christ said He is "The Way, the Truth, and
the Life, and no one comes to the Father but by Me."

Glen, this is the very essence of Christianity.  In .42, you say this should
"Not be allowed."  What you are suggesting is that Christianity itself should
be totally barred from any mention within DEC.

I imagine (please correct me if I'm wrong) that you will say that we can talk
about Christianity, just not mention that anyone else might be wrong.  I'm
sorry Glen, much though you may like to, you can't take this part out of
Christainity.  For many years I tried.  I didn't want this exclusivity to be
part of Christianity.  But it just is.  And it's not just a peripheral piece,
it is the very ESSENCE of Christianity.  If you are suggesting that we can
talk about Christianity, but not make any mention of the fact that other
religions 'are to no avail,' then you are in fact saying we can't talk about
real Christianity, period.  I don't know what you'd call the 'religion'
without that essence.  It would be sort of like saying you can speak about
Marxist thought, except you can't ever contradict the idea that anyone can
amass as much capital as they want, even at other's expense.  You've taken
all the guts and soul out of it, and there's only a lifeless shell left, that
doesn't even resemble the real thing.

Paul

| <<< Note 14.43 by PAULKM::WEISS "To speak the Truth, you must first live it" >>>

| >in the end if they haven't turned to Christ their religion will be to no
| >avail.

| Yet you are objecting to that.  There is no specific put-down of any kind,
| just a speaking of the Truth that Christ said He is "The Way, the Truth, and
| the Life, and no one comes to the Father but by Me."

	Paul.... I know you don't see an insult. But what of those that may be
reading this file who are not Christian? That right away tells them their
religion is worthless. Or do you think the words, 'their religion will be to no
avail' mean something else? You can't make that kind of judgement in DEC,
that's all.

| Glen, this is the very essence of Christianity.  

	But this is a DEC notesfile. The rules were set forth in note 2 about
one such topic not being discussed due to Digital's policies not allowing a
judgement to be made. This is exactly the same thing. You can not make the
statement under Digital rules and your present set of rules seem to dictate you
just can't talk about it. This can't be a pick and choose thing ya know. 


| What you are suggesting is that Christianity itself should be totally barred 
| from any mention within DEC.

	No, I was not stating that. Christianity can be talked about. Other
religions can be talked about. But one can not put down anothers religion. Lets
use the following example:

You can say, "The Lord is the way to Heaven" as that is your belief, and it
fits under the DEC guidelines. But you can't add to that statement, 'any other
religion will be to no avail' as at that point you have just put a value, or
lack thereof, onto anyone elses religion. DEC does not allow that.

| I imagine (please correct me if I'm wrong) that you will say that we can talk
| about Christianity, just not mention that anyone else might be wrong.  I'm
| sorry Glen, much though you may like to, you can't take this part out of
| Christainity.  

	If you want to note in DEC you will have to.

| If you are suggesting that we can talk about Christianity, but not make any 
| mention of the fact that other religions 'are to no avail,' then you are in 
| fact saying we can't talk about real Christianity, period.  

	That is a false statement. You can talk about Christianity with
omitting certain things to remain in DEC guidelines. God is so out there today
doing wonderful things. He teaches us so much. He guides us, blesses us. How
can you say you can't talk about Christianity? 




Glen

Ah, if Ace had said, "Though the Bible teaches that in the end, if they haven't
turned to Christ, their religion will be to no avail," then that would be okay
because Ace was making no judgment, rather presenting what a book by another
author seemed to say to him.

If people disagreed, then they could offer a counter-opinion, or go check out
the Bible for themselves.

No problem, right?

Just trying to make sure I understand the rules.

Just curious, Glen, are you gonna turn Ace in to the PC police?

    Glen, in my opinion, forbidding someone to make a value judgment in a
    public forum is, in fact, a public value judgment.
    
    No?

| <<< Note 14.45 by ROCK::PARKER >>>

| Ah, if Ace had said, "Though the Bible teaches that in the end, if they haven't
| turned to Christ, their religion will be to no avail," then that would be okay
| because Ace was making no judgment, rather presenting what a book by another
| author seemed to say to him.

	Under Digital terms, I don't think so. 

| If people disagreed, then they could offer a counter-opinion, or go check out
| the Bible for themselves. No problem, right?

	No, your own rules, or more the way they are enforced won't allow that.
You can not discuss things in here unless they are for Christianity, which
makes it impossible for someone to discuss their religion, nevermind defend it. 

| Just curious, Glen, are you gonna turn Ace in to the PC police?

	Would *I*, no.... I don't have time to pursue it. But from what I am
seeing the policies of this file are not held accross the board. But that is
really what I had expected. Of course it doesn't mean that others who read this
file from the sidelines wouldn't make an issue of it to HR. 

	For *me* I see it that this file sets rules but only adheres to them if
someone is 'perceived' as a Christian. Because you and I both know if someone
from a different religion came in and started complaining, their notes would be
set hidden/deleted. And to me it does not make sense to do that instantly, but
not also do it instantly for what is being displayed here. 


Glen

| <<< Note 14.46 by ROCK::PARKER >>>

| Glen, in my opinion, forbidding someone to make a value judgment in a
| public forum is, in fact, a public value judgment.

	Take it up with Digital. Look at it this way. I think there are a lot
of rules in this file that were made up that just don't make sense. Just as you
seem to feel about what Digital allows and doesn't allow. But we have to live
with it either way. So I would ask the mods to delete that note, and any others
that reference it. 



Glen

    Why would people want to discuss things in the notesfile titled
    CHRISTIAN that were not "for Christianity?"
    
    Would you expect people to come into the notesfile titled SOFTBALL and
    try to convince participants to NOT play softball?  Or that softball
    should be played by different rules than have been used from the game's
    inception?
    
    Me thinks you, not Digital, is holding the CHRISTIAN conference to a
    different standard for whatever reason.
    
    That, of course, is my opinion, Glen.

| <<< Note 14.49 by ROCK::PARKER >>>

| Why would people want to discuss things in the notesfile titled
| CHRISTIAN that were not "for Christianity?"

	Errr.... Wayne.... the statement about their religion might be one
reason that might want to make someone speak up. But they can't because it will
be set hidden/deleted. Yet people can carry on about the other people's
religions all they want. 

| Would you expect people to come into the notesfile titled SOFTBALL 

	Stop! We are discussing a SPECIFIC incident. The comment about other
religions. You stated a couple of notes back (.45, 2nd paragraph) that if 
someone had a problem, they could just state it. That was when I brought in the 
rules of the conference do not allow for that. So the softball scenerio does 
not work here. It only works if you were discussing opening the conference up 
for everyone to speak about their <insert whatever>. I'm not discussing that. 
I am discussing one particular incident.

| Me thinks you, not Digital, is holding the CHRISTIAN conference to a
| different standard for whatever reason.

	I want Christian to hold the same standard for everyone, regardless of
whether they are perceived as Christians or not. 




Glen

Glen, we have always, and always will, proclaim the Truth that Jesus Christ
is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and the only way to Salvation.

If the day comes when we are no longer allowed to do that in a file dedicated
to the honoring of Christ, then I for one will not participate.

Speaking as a moderator, but not for all the moderators:

No, Glen, I will not hide or delete that note.  And if it comes to a point
where it must be hidden or deleted, I will resign as a moderator and sadly
delete CHRISTIAN from my notebook.

The Truth is The Truth, and I will proclaim it here as long as I am allowed
to do so.  But I will not shamefully remain silent about the VERY ESSENCE of
the truth so that I'm allowed to speak the meaningless, empty shell that is
left.

The Truth is that Jesus Christ, through His death on the Cross, is the only
way of salvation.  All other attempts at salvation are doomed to failure. 
Eternal failure.  And I will stand on that Truth as long as I have breath to
speak it.

Paul

    So why not start a notesfile entitled <insert your own religion here>,
    rather than struggling with Christians?
    
    I don't understand Silva logic--that is my opinion, of course! :-)
    
    Have your say, Glen.  I'm done.

	It really is amazing to see that a file that has set up a ton of rules
to keep people from speaking their views doesn't honor them when it applies to
anyone who is not a Christian. You live by a double edge sword and can't even
see it. 

	No one has to give up their beliefs. But with what you said in your
last note and what was said by Ace, you are passing judgements onto other
people's religion and that can NOT be done in Digital. 



Glen

    Thank you for sharing your opinion, Glen.

| <<< Note 14.52 by ROCK::PARKER >>>

| So why not start a notesfile entitled <insert your own religion here>,
| rather than struggling with Christians?

	It has nothing to do with that. Why you can't see that I don't know.
One particular topic is not allowed to be discussed in here. Why? Well read
note 2.3, 3rd paragraph for the answer. Yet Paul's and Ace's notes do just what
that says can not be done. It is hypocrisy at its best (or worst). 

| I don't understand Silva logic--that is my opinion, of course! :-)

	It's your own conference logic. The conference set the rules. Now they
need to uphold them. 



Glen

    Okay, now that we know what your real issue is, what does the 4th
    paragraph say?

    No-one's notes in this string reference homosexuality.  Color me
    confused, Glen.

| <<< Note 14.57 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>

| No-one's notes in this string reference homosexuality.  Color me
| confused, Glen.

	Are you saying that Digital does not also include other religions under
their belt? Are you saying that you can make value statements against anything
else except that one subject? 

| <<< Note 14.56 by ROCK::PARKER >>>

| Okay, now that we know what your real issue is, what does the 4th
| paragraph say?

	Wayne... talk about making your case worse. That paragraph shows the
conference just can't discuss certain issues due to Digital's rules. Other
people's religions is just one of them.

	I'm curious, Wayene. When you stated that people who disagreed with
what was said could just speak up, where were you thinking it was going to
happen? Not in this file, that's evident. 

	Hypocrisy is what it is. Either you honor all of the Digital Umbrella
by not passing value judgements on anything Digital covers, or you pass them 
for all. You can't have it both ways and not expect it to be brought up every
single time.


Glen

    Okay, Glen, I'm an ignoramous.  Now you won't have to say it, and I
    can't take offense.
    
    I honestly see no validity to your argument.

| <<< Note 14.60 by ROCK::PARKER >>>

| Okay, Glen, I'm an ignoramous.  

	One, why do you think you are that? And two, I don't view you as that.
And three, to not know about something that is going on is not an insult.

| I honestly see no validity to your argument.

	Of course not. You can correct me if I am wrong, but what I see is
this:


1) You feel it is ok to speak of all Christianity in here as it is the
   Christian notesfile.

2) The only thing that should be discussed here is Christianity.

3) You feel there is nothing wrong in stating your belief about other religions
   in here even though they can not respond due to the rules.



	What I see that is missing is:

1) The rules state that because of a certain topic is under the Digital 
   diversity umbrella, it can not be discussed.

2) Other religions also fall under the Digital diversity umbrella. Why are they
   not treated the exact same way as any other subject when they are all under
   the same umbrella? 


	The rules basically show that the notes need to be deleted. They pass a
value judgement on other religions. 



Glen

    We obviously don't see the rules the same way.  And this subject has
    been discussed by you with others many times before.  I have nothing to
    add.

	Yes, we don't seem to look at the rules the same.

	But, if one group of people who fall under decs umbrella can not be
talked about as value judgements can't be made.... then guess what? No group
under the dec umbrella can be talked about because of the same value judgement
rule. 

	Because if it is under the dec umbrella, does it matter what group it
is? The answer is no. Not if you are going to make value judgements and not if
you restrict one group, but not the other. 


Glen

    Re: a lot of different ones.
    
    Well Glen I think that maybe you are picking nits, maybe the intent of
    what was said is not what you think, however that's my take on it and
    it could be flawed. :-) In any case I tend to think you are right in
    how you have interpreted the "rules" and sometimes there does seem to
    be a double standard in this notes file. I say this in part because
    I've seen this many times in wading through past notes and archived
    Christian notes files.
    
    Blast me with flames if you want but I think that Glen is right.
    
    Peter
    

    I have a question for the moderators.
    
    This is from the "statement of faith" in note 2.(whatever).
    
    >	  earth in power and glory to rule a thousand years
    >
    >	o in the blessed hope, the rapture of the Church at Christ's coming (1
    >	  Thesselonians 4:17); in the resurrection of both the saved and the
    >	  lost, the one to everlasting life and the other to everlasting
    >	  damnation (Daniel 12:2; John 11:25,26; Revelation 21:7,8)
    
    What if a noter does not totally agree with this, that is the thousand
    years and the rapture? If someone were to post against this would it be
    censored? I'm not looking to get into a discussion about the theology
    of these doctrines. I'm asking questions about procedures in this notes
    file. So if anyone starts to try and prove these to me I will just
    ignore it. :-)
    
    Thank you,
    
    Peter

    Peter, there are regulars (who are also Christians) in here who don't 
    believe in that minor doctrine and it has been debated before.

    RE: .66
    
    Mike, does that mean that what it is the "statement of faith" is open
    to debate. Just trying to understand the ground rules. :-)
    
    Peter
    

    The purpose of the exclusion of homosexuality was due to previous
    moderators who experienced an inordinate amount of workload due to the
    controversy this topic causes, period.  Digital pays us to work not
    moderate conferences.  
    
    The diversity window has opened quite a bit as Digital has evolved over
    the last 5 years under new leadership.  Perhaps Glen's points have some
    merit,  but I'm not sure that they merit a policy which excludes the
    valuing of the diverse belief of Christianity in spiritual exclusivity. 
    
    This is *not*, I repeat *not* a man made idea, it comes straight from
    the Bible on which we base our beliefs.  Now if Digital comes and tells
    me that my Christian Biblical beliefs are not valued, I perhaps need to
    seek employment elsewhere.  Digital has not commanded me to value the
    lifestyle of homosexuality, they have requested that I value the
    person.  This is not a conflict in my heart as I've always valued human
    life.  
    
    
    
    
    

| <<< Note 14.68 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>


| The purpose of the exclusion of homosexuality was due to previous
| moderators who experienced an inordinate amount of workload due to the
| controversy this topic causes, period.  Digital pays us to work not
| moderate conferences.

	Then are you saying that even though the rules state it has to do with
not being able to make a value judgement because it is covered under the
Digital Umbrella, that the real reason is just because there was too much work
involved? Nancy, could you clarify this? It seems kind of odd that you would
list a reason for why something can't be done and not have it be the real
reason.

	If it turns out that the real reason IS based on not being able to make
value judgements, then the other notes must be deleted as well. 

	But as usual, you missed the point. This has to do with a rule. One
that was man made. One that was made (maybe, anyway) because of what Digital
covers. Digital also covers other groups as well. You can't ignore the facts
and you need to correct the problem.

    I'm sorry, but enough is enough. I stopped reading in this notesfile
    for a couple of months because of exactly this type of back and
    forth not getting anywere arguing.  The Lord said that we shouldn't
    argue about the gospel. No matter in what context.  We all know that
    certain people will just mold it to their satisfaction.  I went
    through twenty notes looking for inspiration. I'm just a baby 
    Christian and I'm trying to surround myself with the Gospel to
    grow and walk knowledgeably with Christ, but instead I find myself
    getting frustrated!
    
    If you talk about people of other religions looking into this notesfile
    it's because their looking for something.  And what they are going to
    find if this back and forth goes on is a way OUT of the conference!
    
    Signing off for another awhile!!
    
    Rose
    

    Rose,
    
    There are plenty of wonderful things beginning in this conference.  If
    you desire to focus on Glen's batting around, then you will find
    discouragement.  Glen has been an antagonist of this file for as long
    as I have known him.  If you feel harm against me or Ace or Glen
    because of this dialogue, I ask you to pray for us.
    
    I love you Rose... and I will miss you.
    
    Nancy
    
    

	"Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this
        adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man
        be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy
        angels."
	-- Mark 8:38

        If, to participate in notes, we must be ashamed of the Word of
        God and what it says, mincing our words and compromising Truth, 
        then we may as well bag this notesfile right now.

	Peace,
		TonyC
		

	Nancy... live by your own rules you set forth and there are no
problems. It's when you or someone else doesn't, I bring things up. Just like
the mods do when there is a problem.

    
    This is moderator action.  The notes will remain as they are.
    
    Any further discussion of this is to be taken off line.
    
    					Jim Glenn
    					Co-Moderator
    

    Well,
    
    2 days of rain in 'godzone' country. Seems some drivers just don't know
    to slow down ;') Traffic chaos everywhere. Good thing I catch the
    train.
    
    So - did we all fill up on pancakes for Shrove Tuesday?
    
    better hit the printer for my printout now - God Bless you all in Jesus
    who is our Ressurection and Hope.
    
    H

    I heard an interseting talk from our new pastor last night.
    
    He was previously at All Saints' Church in Jakarta, and he said that
    about 10% of the Indonesian population is Christian (10% of 200,000,000
    = 20,000,000) more Christians than the total population of Australia.
    
    
    Praise God!!
    
    
Peter.

    Hi Peter!  BTW, did I tell you I received your Christmas card??? 
    Lovely family now if I could only get one of you?
    
    :-)

    I'm usually on the wrong side of the camera so that I'm not seen.
    
    I will try and include Elizabeth and I in next years photo.
    
Peter.

    That would be wonderful Peter!  I will try to do the same.

      Can someone help me out?  Every time I log in, it says "No
      more new notes."  Not of the other conferences I browse do
      this.  I have a fair number of unseen notes, but it 'thinks'
      I don't have any.  (???)
    
      Also, are we gonna have instructions for using an on-line
      Bible?  That was the one thing I asked about for this Conf.
    
    					Tony

    Oops, I was gonna point you to the opening notes here in Chit Chat
    which told you what to do.  But, alas, the Chit Chat time period has
    expired and the early notes are gonzo.
    
    For me, the easiest thing was to delete both the old and new CHRISTIAN
    notesfiles from my notebook, and then reenter them.  I did the
    following after deleting the CHRISTIAN notesfiles:
    
      ADD ENTRY CHRISTIAN/FILE=YUKON::CHRISTIAN
      ADD ENTRY OLD_CHRISTIAN/FILE=YUKON::CHRISTIAN_V7
    
    Then I opened OLD_CHRISTIAN and SET SEEN.
    
    Then I opened CHRISTIAN and SET SEEN/BEFORE=<whatever>.
    
    Now all seems well.
    
    /Wayne

    Re: .81
    
    Sticking my nose in where maybe I should'nt. :-)
    
    Wayne, I'm not sure but I wonder if Tony will see that. If he's
    having problems with unseen notes maybe not. Just a thought but
    maybe you might want to send that to him via E-mail.
    
    Sticking my nose back where it belongs. :-)
    
    Peter
    

    Hi, Peter.
    
    As a matter of fact, I did send him e-mail immediately after posting
    note 14.81.
    
    And he replied, so Tony should be cookin' again shortly.
    
    I'm sure Tony will be touched by your concern, your willingness to
    stick your nose in where maybe you shouldn't! :-)
    
    /Wayne

      Hi,
    
        Whats the syntax for ??? in the statement "set seen/before=???"
    
    						Thanks!,
    
    						Tony

    I just did the SET SEEN when the switch happened and life went on as
    normal could be. ;-)

    the date format is dd-mmm-yy or you can use the keywords TODAY or
    YESTERDAY

      I'm all set!  Thanks 'fellow computer nerds'!!!  ;-)
    
      Just kidding.
    
    					Tony

If'n the moderators had used PAN to set up the new conference, it would
have continued the SEEN map without a hitch.

/john

    Hi, John.
    
    I'm not a moderator, but what is PAN?
    
    I'm an old dog still trying to learn new (to me) tricks. :-)
    
    /Wayne

A notes conference management tool.

See ROCKS::PAN for info.

      By the way, speaking of teaching an old dog new tricks...
    
      Guess what I'm learning to do at the ancient (that ancient is
      for Wayne who I know is older than me!!!) age of 38.
    
      I'm learning to play the piano.  
    
      Two years ago, I told my wife I wouldn't mind a keyboard and
      learning to play a piano.  I didn't get it for Christmas and
      this year I forgot about it/gave up on it and what did I get,
      but a Casio keyboard and piano lessons!!!  I've gone through
      four lessons and have practised consistently so far.
    
      I hope to be able to play 'Take My Life and Let It Be' some
      day!!!  (I love that hymn...brings me to tears.  I usually
      can't sing the whole thing.)
    
    						Tony

    http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/vom/vom.html

interesting site

    re: PAN
    
    years back I used it for all the maintenance work I did on various
    conf's I Mod'd (incl. this one).
    
    But the bit about the 'unseen map' - I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm
    wrong, John ;'), but I would have though that the unseen map would be
    stored in the user's own notes$notebook.note file, rather than in the
    conference.note file itself?
    
    My only criticism of the way the conference was rolled over, was the
    lack of notice. It should have gone something like...
    
    1 - a week before announce that it's happening
    2 - the day before - remind everyone, and specify the time (e.g. 9am
        Tuesday morning Mass. Time zone)
    2a - tell everyone that after 9am Tuesday to
    - Notes> modify entry Christian/name=Christian_v7/file=yukon::christian_v7
    (this would have kept the 'unseen map')
    - Notes> add entry Christian/file=yukon::christian.note
    3 - set conf. 'write-lock' overnight or early Tuesday morning
    4 - rename the files around
    5 - un-write lock the new ::christian file
    
    But what is done, is done now.
    
    If anyone is still having troubles with their unseen map, then I
    suggest Notes> set seen/before=today will make everything seen before
    todays date, and then hit 'next unseen' and read all the entries for
    today again ;')
    
    hth,
    
    H

    Because with PAN you can create the new conference using the old as a
    template, which means it retains all the original date info, which
    means your seen map doesn't get hosed.
    
    Mike

    Happy Valentine's Day Everyone!  If you are a single person with no
    lady/man love in your life this year, just remember the one who
    loves you most is with you in your heart; Jesus.
    
    There's just something about that name,
    Master, Savior, Jesus
    like a fragrance after the rain
    
    Jesus, Jesus, Jesus,
    let all heaven and earth proclaim
    kings and kingdoms will all pass away 
    but there's just something about that name.
    

    I wonder why, for the last two days, I've logged into CHRISTIAN only to
    find "no new notes".  Yet, when I go to "chit chat", I find notes
    posted during this time.  Most peculiar (or however you spell that).

The Moderator could use PAN at any time to make sure that any new notes
from _now_ (ok, from when he uses PAN) on will automagically show up in
users' old unseen masks.  It won't have a noticeable effect on anyone
who has already gotten straightened out.

Just use the command that sets the highest used Note ID.

You can do that at any time (upward only).

Make it one more than the last one used in the old conf (which PAN will
tell you).

/john

    If I'd read the previous replies (rather than just looking at the date
    stamps), I guess my question would have been answered.  8^)

               \|/ ____ \|/
                @~/ ,. \~@
               /_( \__/ )_\-----Snarf! 
               ~  \__U_/  ~ 

    Hi, please forgive me for intruding on you usual "chit-chat" group, but
    this didn't seem like a significant question to start a new topic over:
    
    Has anyone seen the movie "Michael"?  The reason  I ask that my unsaved
    husband has suddenly out of the blue said that he really wants to see
    this movie.  That is really unusual for him since we are not
    "movie-going" people (except for the occasional Star-Treck" film), and
    he really "dislikes" John Travolta, as well as all thing "spiritual".
    
    Lately, alot of folks have been praying for him, so I guess I'm
    wondering where this urge is comming from.  As most wives out there
    know, I can say "OK" and we can get our coats on and go, or I can
    say, "Gee, uhm, let's go "someday" - then of course we never get
    around to it.
    
    So how is this movie?  Is it something I should encourage?  The thought
    of sitting through a John Travolta in wings movie is a bit hard to
    fathom, but if it the Holy Spirit can use, I'm willing...  any
    thoughts on this film??
    
    Thanks!

    
    
    RE: 101 No intruding at all.
    
    I have not seen the movie but I have some of the previews.
    
    I personally may not go and see it, because the previews in my
    estimation did not accurately depict the nature of angels.  As
    a matter of fact, it seemed to be slamming or at least misrepresenting
    the angels according to scripture.
    
    Since I havn't seen it, maybe someone else who has may be able to 
    provide a better answer.
    
    					-JimGle-
    
    
    

 All I know about it is what I've seen in ads.and it is not a movie
 which I'd consider seeing.  



 Jim

I thought that Michael (in this movie) was not Holy Michael Archangel
but rather a fallen angel.

    Fallen angel?  That settles it and answers all my questions.  Thanks
    for the input.  I was hoping that maybe the Holy Spirit was starting to
    get through to his hardened heart and that there was *something*
    (anything!) redeeming about this movie that He could use.  My opinion
    was the same as yours from the ads and that's why seeing it was
    something I really didn't want to do...
    
    Thanks for your thoughts...
    
    Elaine

fallen? I think that might be right to a point. I had thought it was like a
highway to heaven where he is going to get back into His good graces.

    I thought it was a slam at Michael the Archangel?  The following is a
    site that does movie reviews for Christians:
    
    http://www.ChristianAnswers.Net/reviews/reviews.html
    
    "Michael" is reviewed at
    http://www.ChristianAnswers.Net/reviews/i-mchl.html

    Wow!  Thanks!  I checked out the website you mentioned and we are
    definetly not seeing this movie.  And now I can tell him *why* I won't
    go with him to see it (instead of just stalling and hoping he forgets
    about it!).
    
    Thanks again, you saved us what would have been an "argumentative"
    evening at best since I would have probably gotten up and walked out in
    the middle of it!  

Note .108 is a set of reviews of the movie "Michael."  Mike posted it hidden,
and asked us to reivew first.  We didn't see anything objectionable (except
the movie :-)

[The Moderators]

>	Seems to me yet even more value judgements are taking place in here.
>New week, new value judgements to make. Simply amazing.
    
    Glen value judgments are made in every area of a persons life almost
    every day.  
    
    I find this statement to be not only true that you have written, and to
    the contrary not amazing at all.
    
    I will ask you however, to not antagonize the participants of this
    conference through insults directed personally towards someone.
    
    I also find the same types of discussions with value judgments in other
    conferences as well, don't you?  
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy
    
    

The previous note, and note 30.9 to which it refers, set hidden pending
moderator discussion.

Paul

Notes 30.9 and 14.111 have been un-hidden.  They are a re-opening of a
discussion we had a week ago, which was closed by moderator action in note
14.74.  They are unhidden only because the issue has come up again in another
note.

Glen, as was discussed at length just last week when you proclaimed your
value judgement that we shouldn't make this particular value judgement, we
will unapologetically stand on The Truth that Jesus Christ is The Way, The
Truth and The Life, or we will close this conference.  Please refrain from
making derogatory comments every time someone proclaims that Truth.

If you feel the need to have further discussion of this with people who
proclaim this Truth, please take it offline.

Paul
Co-Moderator

| <<< Note 14.111 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>


| Glen value judgments are made in every area of a persons life almost
| every day.

	With the exception of this file, one can always turn around and place
their views in. In this file if one had slammed another religion, anyone who
read it who is from said religion would have their note set hidden/deleted if
they responded. Because if their religion is not based on the Bible, then it
can't be discussed in here. And there is where the problem is. If they can't
discuss their religion, their version of Christian faith, how can the people of
this conference talk about it? Allow others to be able to respond, or don't
make the comments. It can't be a one way street. Not in DIGITAL.

| I will ask you however, to not antagonize the participants of this conference 
| through insults directed personally towards someone.

	It is not antagonizing. I am using your own rules. You have them here
for a reason, right? My guess is they are supposed to apply to all, right?

| I also find the same types of discussions with value judgments in other
| conferences as well, don't you?

	Nancy, reread my first paragraph of this note. 


Glen

    
    
>	With the exception of this file, one can always turn around and place
>their views in. In this file if one had slammed another religion, anyone who
>read it who is from said religion would have their note set hidden/deleted if
>they responded. Because if their religion is not based on the Bible, then it
>can't be discussed in here. And there is where the problem is. If they can't
>discuss their religion, their version of Christian faith, how can the people of
>this conference talk about it? Allow others to be able to respond, or don't
>make the comments. It can't be a one way street. Not in DIGITAL.

    You can always change your channel Glen.......
    
    
    

    Re: -1
    
    AMEN!

| <<< Note 14.115 by YUKON::GLENN >>>


| You can always change your channel Glen.......

	Except that isn't the correct answer. What makes this file unique and
go against DIGITAL's rules is a one sided view. That in itself isn't bad. It is
when that one sided view goes into areas other than Christianity. Then it goes
against Digital's rules for reasons stated in note 2.3. Value judgements.

	Open the dialougue and then it fits in with Digital's rules. But note
2.3 says why you can't talk about one topic. Those same reasons also apply to
all other Digital diversity umbrella areas. You can't pick which groups you can
make value judgements about. Either you can make them for all and allow
dialogue, or you can't make them for any. 

	You expect others to live by your rules. But you can't live by them
yourselves.


Glen

    Glen, if you find this file so offensive and oppressive, then why do
    you continue herein?  What we believe about someone else really is of
    no consequence, so why bother?  We look on outward things, but God sees
    the heart.

    Just apprise Digital of our bigotry and be done with us.

    Hey,
    I've heard that we may have a heat wave in N.E. tomorrow.
    
    Could this be the case ?  In the 50's?
    
    					-JimGle-
    

 Yep!

      I had one thing I wanted to say.
    
      In my view, Digital's valuing diversity 'philosophy' is
      impossible.
    
      We, as human beings, cannot help but convey (at least to
      some extent) our personal value systems.  For example, if
      I say I am a Christian, I have implicitly at least conveyed
      the value system that Jesus is the way the truth and the 
      life and thus other 'paths' are false ones.
    
      If a person conveys agnosticism, he has conveyed a negative
      value of Christianity purely on the basis of the values
      inherent to Christianity (belief in God a must) and the
      values inherent to agnosticism (not being sure is a-OK).
    
      If you really think about it, you couldn't really communicate
      if you can't communicate who you are and communicating who
      you are implies conveying, to some extent at least, your
      personal value system.
    
      I think valuing diversity is just plain dumb.  I think we
      should be called to value PEOPLE, but to be told to value
      things about them is a bit much, imo.
    
      Do I have to value someone's atheism?  Do I have to value
      someone's satanism?  Do I have to value someone's rather
      obvious love of self?
    
      The whole idea is so ludicrous to me that I just laugh it
      off.
    
    						Tony

    
    Eeehaw.  I guess I should try to get on my running garb and
    get back into the swing of things. 
    
    I usually run through the winter, but have been side tracked with
    a lot of other events; like moving to a new facility and position.
    
    					-JimGle-
    

 I need to get out and start walking again.  I've dropped nearly 20lbs, but
 I haven't really excersize much lately.  Maybe I'll get out tonight.



 Jim

    re: 14.123
    
    Looks like it might be a good night for it.  A beautiful sunset
    may be in the making.
    
    If I feel more up to snuff, I'll be hitting the pavement tomorrow
    to loosen up them muscles, ligaments, and joints :-/.
    
    				

 I was just looking out the window thinking it will be a nice sunset..

    I wonder what's beyond the sunset? :-)

| <<< Note 14.118 by ROCK::PARKER >>>

| Glen, if you find this file so offensive and oppressive, then why do
| you continue herein?  

	Whether or not I like the rule isn't the issue. The rule has to be kept
by everyone for it to be consistant, for it to be within dec's guidelines. If
you are going to put a rule in here, it has to be enforced. 

	If one can not talk about a religion that does not use the Bible, then
it can't be talked about on both sides of the coin. This is an issue of
fairness, this is an issue of living by your own rules.

| <<< Note 14.121 by YIELD::BARBIERI >>>


| We, as human beings, cannot help but convey (at least to some extent) our 
| personal value systems.  For example, if I say I am a Christian, I have 
| implicitly at least conveyed the value system that Jesus is the way the truth 
| and the life and thus other 'paths' are false ones.

	Tony.... expressing one's views only becomes a problem when you don't
allow someone to convey their thoughts on a subject one just made a value
judgement on.

	For instance, if one says, "Christianity is the only true way of
getting to Heaven, and all other religion's won't work", then the statement is
a belief one has. And it CAN be said within DIGITAL. That is unless you then
turn around and don't allow someone from another religion to make their views
known.

	Can you see that?

| Do I have to value someone's atheism?  Do I have to value someone's satanism? 
| Do I have to value someone's rather obvious love of self? The whole idea is 
| so ludicrous to me that I just laugh it off.

	And to think what you said isn't even diversity.


Glen

    Sunset?????????? I'm still in the middle of my day! :-) x 100
    
    Amen Tony!  I couldn't agree with your assessment more.  But I also
    believe that Digital's only real influence around valuing
    diversity/differences is towards VALUING PEOPLE.  No insitution can
    mandate I value a morality contradictory to my own.  That would be
    devaluing my morality.
    
    It is how we TREAT EACH OTHER that makes the difference.  Discussion
    around a "topic" is very different than attacking a person.  I've been
    through this defining with Glen Silva SO MANY TIMES that I've given up
    trying to get him to understand.  
        
    Doctrinal differences/opposing beliefs are discussed in this file
    frequently.  Moderators draw the line when a people begin to devalue
    people i.e., personal attacks, see 2.* for policy.
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy
    

	Gee nancy.... maybe someday the mods will follow 2.3 for all of the
digital diversity umbrella groups like you should be doing?

>    I've heard that we may have a heat wave in N.E. tomorrow.
>    
>    Could this be the case ?  In the 50's?

It was over 50 today in Acton.

/john

    
    > I wonder what's beyond the sunset? :-)
    
    If the Lord comes, I won't be wondering :-).
    
    Outside of that, a night and another day that the Lord has made :-).
    
    

    Glen,
    
    Your statement that people from different belief systems can't make it
    known is ludicrous.  This file and in its history has had more topics
    with this very essence in them than I can name.
    
    There is only one topic we don't allowed discussed in this file and its
    not discussed by either side, period.  See 2.* for that topic in case
    you don't know what it is. :-)
    
    The only other area we draw a line on is whether or not the discussion
    is based on the Bible if it will bear fruit or only become a time
    sinkhole or for bickering.  
    
    There are plenty of examples in the previous versions of Christian to
    back up the decisions made around noting rules.
    
    The entire purpose of the rules in this file are to eliminate conflict
    and ratholes.  Now that is it.  They aren't to shut out others points
    of views.  
    
    What I don't understand is why in the world you pick on this file when
    I've seen in other files a harsher set of dialogues that you will
    rarely find in this file.  We really do try to be good corporate
    citizens in this regard.
    
    Your multi-year attack on this file boggles me, Glen.   What I really
    can't understand is how you can spend so much time in so many different
    conferences.  I've seen you in so many conferences where you seem to
    "reside" that I just wonder.
    
    I've had to nearly cease all participation in notes conferences due to
    the increased workload based on Digital's downsizing efforts over the
    last 5 years.  
    
    Tell me how do you find time to moderate files and participate in the 4
    conferences in which I know you note?
    
    

    To add to what Nancy has said, it is about time we all acted our age
    and realize that the moderators have *REAL* DEC-revenue-generating
    (hopefully!) *WORK* to do.  Babysitting a dissident, on what has been
    standard procedure in here for years, is not in their job description.
    You have more than enough diversity discussions to keep you "busy" in
    all your other conferences.
    
    thanks for turning the channel,
    Mike

    Glen, do you believe everyone has a right to be wrong?
    
    Do you believe anyone has the right to say someone is wrong?
    
    Do you believe there is any such thing as right and wrong?
    
    Who can say what is right and what is wrong, and how would they say it?

There is no double standard here, Glen.  There is ONE standard, and that is
precisely what you seem to take issue with.  As is clearly stated as THE
basic rule for this conference - the basis of discussion here - the ONE rule
under which we gather - Scripture is The Standard.

We seek to gather as a group of people united by that One Standard of Truth. 
As such, a statement that Christ is the only way of salvation is TRUE -
according to the standard under which we have gathered.  A statement that
another way might lead to salvation is FALSE - *BY THAT ONE SAME STANDARD*.

People are welcome to join us from any perspective, but EVERY perspective
will be held up to the One Standard, and compared to that Standard.

Besides, it's not as if there is nowhere to have a discussion of Christ in
which all possible versions of truth are accepted.  There already exists
within DIGITAL a forum where anything can be proposed as truth, under a loose
banner of affiliation to Christ - the CHRISTIAN_PERSPECTIVE conference.  And
that conference is a good example of exactly what happens when there is no
standard, and where every view must be accepted as 'possibly true.'  It only
loosely resembles Christianity any more, because people from anywhere and
everywhere equally proclaim any and every version of truth.

Glen, your insistence that this file recognize any version of truth is
effectively a demand that we cease to exist, or a demand that we turn into
another version of CHRISTIAN_PERSPECTIVE, which is essentially the same thing
because it destroys this fellowship.  We could all go to that file if we
desired that type of fellowship.  But we don't.  We desire to share a
fellowship united by a common standard.  A fellowship where anyone is welcome
to participate UNDER THAT STANDARD.  What is so hard about that?

And I will note without further comment that you have been raising exactly
these sorts of issues in this file for seven years now.  That's a very long
time.  Why can't you just accept that we are who we are and let us be?

Paul

| <<< Note 14.133 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>

| Your statement that people from different belief systems can't make it
| known is ludicrous.  This file and in its history has had more topics
| with this very essence in them than I can name.

	Nancy, please tell me what would happen if the following scenerio was
done:

yukon:	any religion other than Christianity is doomed.

resp:	my religion supports the true One. Buddah.

resp:	Christianity is a farce. How dare you say my religion is doomed.

	You and I BOTH know both would be deleted because it doesn't include the
Bible. In fact, it goes against that rule. So PLEASE don't tell me someone can
respond. They can't. 

| There is only one topic we don't allowed discussed in this file and its
| not discussed by either side, period.  See 2.* for that topic in case
| you don't know what it is. :-)

	If the things I said above can be said in here, then yes, I would be
wrong about what I said. If the above can not be said, then I am right (about
the 1st �). But on the 2nd � it still stands. Why can't that topic be
discussed? Because it falls under the diversity umbrella. So don't the other
religions that people make value judgements against in here, as is
Christianity. You have to allow all or nothing. Either all discussion on
people's religions, or none. Either all diversity umbrella topics are off
limits, or they are on.

	In your own little worlds you can have it the way you want. But in
DIGITAL, you have to go by their rules.

| The entire purpose of the rules in this file are to eliminate conflict
| and ratholes.  Now that is it.  They aren't to shut out others points
| of views.

	If you allow the above statements to be made, then yes. Otherwise, no.

| What I don't understand is why in the world you pick on this file when
| I've seen in other files a harsher set of dialogues that you will
| rarely find in this file.  We really do try to be good corporate
| citizens in this regard.

	Nancy, other conferences allow dialogue. This one prevents it.

| Tell me how do you find time to moderate files and participate in the 4
| conferences in which I know you note?

	I type fast and run lots of tests. 2 hour tests leave time.


Glen

| <<< Note 14.134 by PHXSS1::HEISER "Maranatha!" >>>

| Babysitting a dissident, on what has been standard procedure in here for 
| years, is not in their job description.

	If you live by your own rules, then policing wouldn't happen.

    Glen,
    
        I have no further comment.  All has been said from me that I feel
        needs to be said, I will not continue in nitpicking or pulling
        apart of your answers or mine.
        
        In His Love,
        Nancy
    

| <<< Note 14.135 by ROCK::PARKER >>>

| Glen, do you believe everyone has a right to be wrong?
| Do you believe anyone has the right to say someone is wrong?
| Do you believe there is any such thing as right and wrong?
| Who can say what is right and what is wrong, and how would they say it?

	Yes, Yes, Yes, Anyone

	The only thing is if you use Digital utilities, you have to allow for a
return discussion.

    Is this a snarf!? :-)

| <<< Note 14.136 by PAULKM::WEISS "To speak the Truth, you must first live it" >>>


| People are welcome to join us from any perspective, but EVERY perspective
| will be held up to the One Standard, and compared to that Standard.

	With DIGITAL's equipment, you have to go by their rules. In your own
church, or your own group outside Digital, you can do whatever you want.

| What is so hard about that?

	What is so hard about living by your own rules?

| Why can't you just accept that we are who we are and let us be?

	I have no problem with that, Paul. As long as you also obey the very
rules you put forward.

>	What is so hard about living by your own rules?

Nothing.  We are.

And I echo Nancy:

>        I have no further comment.  All has been said from me that I feel
>        needs to be said, I will not continue in nitpicking or pulling
>        apart of your answers or mine.

(Though I have asked permission of an author to repost a note from two years 
 ago that very accurately captures this discussion, and may repost when I
 receive said permission.)

God bless, Glen

Paul

    It's a beautiful day here - and the pitchers and catchers have started
    to report in.

 Yep, baseball is back in the sports sections...

    On what basis do you say:
    
    Yes, everyone has a right to be wrong.
    
    Yes, anyone has the right to say someone is wrong.
    
    Yes, there is such thing as right and wrong.
    
    Anyone can say what is right and what is wrong.
    
    You didn't answer how anyone would say what is right and what is wrong.
    What would be the basis for determining right and wrong?  Who or what
    establishes what is right and what is wrong?

re .146

There is one simple basis required to make Glen's answers possible:

	Everyone is God.

/john

     -< It's good to be the King >-
    
    	- thanks Mel ;')

| <<< Note 14.146 by ROCK::PARKER >>>


| You didn't answer how anyone would say what is right and what is wrong.

	Each person's view of what is right or wrong is going to be different,
as no two people are alike. Two people may even use the same tool, but come out
with two different views on things.

	The only One who knows what is right and wrong 100% of the time is God.
We aren't God, so we will not be right all the time.

| What would be the basis for determining right and wrong?  Who or what
| establishes what is right and what is wrong?

	God. The best we can do is emulate what we THINK is correct. 

| <<< Note 14.147 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>

| Everyone is God.

	At times I wonder about you..... :-)

14.65 � What if a noter does not totally agree with this, that is the thousand
14.65 � years and the rapture? 

Hello Peter,

Sorry - Mike was the only one to respond, and no mods seem to have picked up
your 14.65.  While I keep up as far as I can, pressure and changes inside and
outside work rarely let me contribute here these days to any extent. 

If you look carefully at the statement in note 2.1, you'll see that it 
actually narrowly avoids anything truly contraversial, in order to include 
purely a literal acceptance of the 1 Thessalonians passage.  The
controversy tends to be in two areas; 'whether', 'when' and 'where' the
millenium (which isn't mentioned in 2.1), and 'when' for the rapture.  Not
'whether', as all eschatological views I can remember agree that when Jesus
returns, we shall meet him in the air in accordance with 1 Thessalonians
4:17.  I believe that the point of that inclusion in the "statement of
faith" is to emphasise that Jesus' return is a real anticipated physical event 
which will happen on a set date and time (unknown, until He reveals it by 
returning), and that His return includes identification, acknowledgement
and acceptance of His church, of which all Christians form a part.

14.65 � If someone were to post against this would it be censored? 
It would depend how this was approached.  If 'someone' entered a reply 
which said effectively "I don't care what the Bible says, I just don't 
believe that this is true", it would contravene the guidelines, because 
their basis of argument is extra-Biblical and rejecting the Bible; it would 
have nothing ot do with this conference, and should be taken elsewhere.

If they entered a reply in the vein of "How do you interpret this passage 
in the Bible, do you think it means a literal future occurrence, I would 
take it to mean something else based on correlation with the following 
verses..." - that would be a legitimate approach, even if it concerned a 
verse mentioned in the "statement of faith".

Bottom line is, if you want to question some interpretation or view about
the rapture, that's ok.  If you want to propound some other world view 
which has to reject 1 Thessalonians 4:17 totally out of hand, it might 
just incur that heavy word 'censored'.  

I hope that answers your question to your satisfaction!

					God bless
							Andrew

p.s. as this is chit-chat, where replies are deleted after a week, I'll 
include the original query on the next page.


    I have a question for the moderators.
    
    This is from the "statement of faith" in note 2.(whatever).
    
    >	  earth in power and glory to rule a thousand years
    >
    >	o in the blessed hope, the rapture of the Church at Christ's coming (1
    >	  Thesselonians 4:17); in the resurrection of both the saved and the
    >	  lost, the one to everlasting life and the other to everlasting
    >	  damnation (Daniel 12:2; John 11:25,26; Revelation 21:7,8)
    
    What if a noter does not totally agree with this, that is the thousand
    years and the rapture? If someone were to post against this would it be
    censored? I'm not looking to get into a discussion about the theology
    of these doctrines. I'm asking questions about procedures in this notes
    file. So if anyone starts to try and prove these to me I will just
    ignore it. :-)
    
    Thank you,
    
    Peter

    Clayton tried out for baseball yesterday with a Santa Clara Boys PAL
    league.  They play "real" competitive baseball, not little league rules
    and he did fantastic!
    
    He was fantastic!  I was very proud of him.  He can bat, pitch and
    field!  He told his Aunt Jackie that he knew who his ancestor was.  
    
    She responded, "Who?"
    
    Clayton said, "Babe Ruth!" 
    
    We all laughed, Clayton is a bit chunky though not fat, but the even
    minor resemblance was humorous.
    
    

>    <<< Note 14.152 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>


    Whoa!  Some actual chit-chat in the chit-chat note!  What a novel idea!

    Nancy, you are in awfully early!  Good morning!

    Ron

    Re: .151
    
Hi Andrew, you wrote,

> millenium (which isn't mentioned in 2.1), and 'when' for the rapture.  Not
> 'whether', as all eschatological views I can remember agree that when Jesus
> returns, we shall meet him in the air in accordance with 1 Thessalonians
> 4:17.  I believe that the point of that inclusion in the "statement of

I know of views that don't think there will be any rapture at all. I know
that in the Church that my wife is a member they don't believe in any
rapture. Now they are a non-denominational church with Baptist roots.
The follow the idea of sola scriptura and the rest of what most
evangelical churches hold. Their view of the rapture or lack of the
rapture they feel is totally bible based. I don't know off hand all the
arguments and frankly I don't really want to debate them. I do want to
say that they agree with the doctrine of Jesus' physical return, as I
believe all Christians do, except for some fringe/cult Christian groups.
My reason for responding is based on what you said, it seems that I would
be censored if I debated that the rapture will not take place, yes or no?

The rest of what you wrote is fine with me.

Thanks for responding,

Peter

P.S. There are also Christians that believe that Jesus will not have an
     actual 1000 year physical reign on earth. That those passages dealing
     with that mean something else. I don't know where the conference
     stands on wether it's ok to debate that or not either.
    

    Hi, Peter.
    
    As Andrew said, debate concerning the rapture usually centers around
    when, not if.  Of course, definitions are important, so let's define
    rapture in the most general terms as Christ taking up or receiving His
    church in the fulness of time.
    
    One must ignore or explain away much explicit teaching of Scripture in
    order to say that Christ's church will not be translated/changed at all.
    
    One main point of contention is whether or not Christ's church will go
    through the great tribulation, with the camps divided into pre-trib,
    mid-trib and post-trib.  Then there's the issue of the millenial reign
    of Christ.  So if you're in the pre-trib camp, and see the great
    tribulation preceding the millenial reign, then you're a pre-millenialist
    by definition.  The pre-trib rapture thus seen is quite common among
    fundamentalists.  I would be quite surprised if the view of your wife's
    church holds that Christ's church will NOT be taken up.  My hunch is that
    the issue is a matter of when.  Again, rapture has come to be associated
    with the pre-trib position, and your wife's church likely takes issue
    with "classic" pre-millenialism.
    
    Now, if you don't believe there's a literal millenial reign, then you're
    an amillenialist viewing the millenial reign of Christ metaphorically,
    but without necessarily denying the translation of Christ's church when
    all is said and done.  Et cetera, ad nauseum.
    
    Some will find my using the term "ad nauseum" offensive because they
    supposedly have a full understanding of these things and the truth should
    not be taken lightly.  They, of course, are entitled to their opinions!
    :-)
    
    /Wayne

    I come by the blood
    I come by the cross
    Where mercy flows from hands pierced for me
    For I cannot stand
    On my righteousness
    My every hope rests on what Christ has done
    I come by the blood

    Chit-chat folks!  Chit-chat!
    
    Hi Ron!  Yeah I woke up at 4 this morning and couldn't go back to bed
    so I logged on and worked for about an hour and a half.  
    
    Then I cooked breakfast, French toast, bacon and eggs for the family,
    made coffee.
    
    Now I'm here in the office.  Can you imagine I'm ready for bed
    again????
    
    :-)

>   <<< Note 14.123 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Give the world a smile each day" >>>

> I need to get out and start walking again.  I've dropped nearly 20lbs, but
> I haven't really excersize much lately.  Maybe I'll get out tonight.


Congratulations Jim, that's wonderful. Keep up the good work! Exercise, I am
told, can help tremendously, and increases energy levels so make that extra
effort!

I have been very gradually working on changing my lifestyle. This week I 
started my new exercise program - at the Y near work during my lunch hour. 
Monday, Wednesday, and Friday I'll swim, and on Tuesday and Thursday, I'm 
doing 10 minutes on the treadmill to warm up, and then doing some of the 
weight machines. 

I will be allowing some exceptions though - for example, this week, we have 
out of town guests, friends who used to live here, so on Friday, I am having 
lunch with Diane and another friend instead of swimming.

My schedule doesn't really work for doing something before or after work.

Leslie

    Another Snarf for Nancy, another snarf for Nancy. :-) hee hee hee

    Leslie!  Snarfed out by a Sister, no less! :-) grins.
    
    

Sorry Nancy, if I knew you were getting ready to enter a snarf, I would 
have delayed hitting enter :-). I wasn't finished going through all the
notes so wasn't aware of the note number.

Leslie

One other thought, Glen.  I thought of this on my way home last night.  You
say:

>please tell me what would happen if the following scenerio was done:
>
>yukon:	any religion other than Christianity is doomed.
>
>resp:	my religion supports the true One. Buddah.
>
>You and I BOTH know both would be deleted because it doesn't include the
>Bible. In fact, it goes against that rule. So PLEASE don't tell me someone
>can respond. They can't.

This isn't exactly true.  People have always been allowed, on nearly any
subject, to say whatever they thought to be true.  But that statement,
whatever it is, is then held up to the Word for evaluation.  And in that
process of evaluation, what does get hidden or deleted or shut down is any
line of reasoning that denies that the Bible is the place to go to find what
the real truth is.

So, using your example, it would go more like this:

Statement:
  My religion supports the true One. Buddah. (allowed to stand)

Response:
  The Bible says that Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth, and the Life, so
  by the standard we have agreed to adopt, your statement that Budda is the 
  true one is not correct.

Possible response:  (Allowed to stand)
  But Jesus said that He had other sheep that were not of this pasture.  I  
  believe that includes other religions.

Possible response:  (Deleted or hidden)
  Well so what, I don't believe that the Bible is anything more than a
  collection of sayings.

I recognize that this does effectively shut down the ability to present other
views.  But it does so according to a single, easily verifiable standard.  We
hold to this standard because as a body of people who believe in this
standard and desire to discuss how to apply it to our lives, we are
effectively prevented from doing so if that standard can be questioned at
every opportunity.  We have found that without that restriction, every
conversation that we are trying to have about how to apply the wisdom of the
Bible to our lives degenerates into a discussion of why the Bible should be
the standard.  It always happens exactly as in the example above.  Someone
makes an un-biblical statement, the statement is countered with Scripture,
the poster of the original statement says they don't care about what the
Bible says, and we are off again in a 50-note rathole about "Why believe the
Bible?"  The possibility of discussing how the wisdom of the Bible can be
applied to the situation is totally lost.

And it's worth noting that this policy didn't just start this way, it came
into being over YEARS of exactly this happening.  I just looked back through
the guidelines of the previous versions of CHRISTIAN, and the progression
goes like this:

V1: All Christian discourse welcomed.  It explicitly states "You don't even
    have to believe the Bible."

V2: All Christian discourse welcomed.  The explicit statement of not having
    to believe the Bible is gone.  Toward the end of the life of V2, the
    question was raised as to whether CHRISTIAN should become read-only,
    because of the constant friction caused by disagreement about the Bible.

V3: The Bible is set forth as the standard at the beginning, but nothing is
    said about what happens when people disregard that standard.  Later in
    the life of V3, there is a general statement about how the moderators
    will deal with notes that don't adhere to conferece guidelines, which
    includes hiding or deleting notes, but this policy does not specifically 
    reference notes which contradict the Bible.

V4: Starts where V3 left off.  The Bible is set forth as the standard, and 
    there is a general statement that moderators may hide or delete notes 
    that don't adhere to conferece guidelines, but this statement does not 
    specifically reference notes which contradict the Bible.

V5: Same as V4.

V6: The Bible is the standard, and there is a specific statement that "any 
    entries which are derogatory, attempt to alter it, or attack Biblical 
    beliefs will be be set hidden and/or deleted."

V7: Same as V6.

V8: (current) Same as V6.

This shows a LONG progression of discovering that we simply cannot hold a
conversation about how to live life according to the standard of the Word
without actively preventing discussion which attacks that standard.

We hold a very clear, SINGLE standard - what does the Word say?

Paul

Posted with permission of the author:

           <<< RGNET::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< The CHRISTIAN Notesfile >-
=============================================================================
Note 713.85          Is it a Christian thing to.....               85 of 237
TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers"  41 lines  5-APR-1995 09:22:48
                            -< Fresh fish anyone? >-
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fishing.... 

This notes conference is dedicated to fresh water fishing. 
Salt water fishing can be discussed elsewhere.  

"Hey, salt water fishing is fishing, and what about aquatic life in 
the estuaries where fresh water meets salt water?"

"This conference is for fresh water fishing."

"No, I think it should be for all kinds of fishing.  Fresh water fishing
isn't the only kind of fishing, you know."

"That doesn't matter.  We want to discuss fresh water fishing; not salty
water fishing; not fishing in the briny estuaries."

----

Note xx.x

"Yesterday, I fished on a lake and caught some wide-mouthed bass..."

"Yeah, but if you fished on the bay, you could catch some flounder..."

"This notes conference is about fresh-water fishing."

"It should be about all fishing."

"It isn't.  We don't want to talk about that kind of fishing."

"Are you intolerant of salt water fishing?"

"What!?  Look, we just want to talk about fresh water fishing.  We don't want
to talk about other fishing."

"You are intolerant!  This is a double standard!  You can talk all you 
want about fresh water fishing but don't allow talking about other fishing.
And after all, the world is covered with salt water, and more fish are in
salt water than fresh water, and there are many more different kinds of 
fish..."

"This notes conference is about fresh water fishing."

| <<< Note 14.162 by PAULKM::WEISS "To speak the Truth, you must first live it" >>>


| This isn't exactly true.  People have always been allowed, on nearly any
| subject, to say whatever they thought to be true.  But that statement,
| whatever it is, is then held up to the Word for evaluation.  And in that
| process of evaluation, what does get hidden or deleted or shut down is any
| line of reasoning that denies that the Bible is the place to go to find what
| the real truth is.



	Then it would make sense for no discussion to be allowed on anything
that will have someone bring up the non-Bible issue, no?

When I find time, I'll move all this discussion about double standards and
such to it's own note.  And perhaps the rapture stuff too.

Paul
Co-Moderator

    So, we agree that everyone has the right to be wrong.  But, is being
    wrong right?
    
    With no objective standard, only anarchy remains.  Anarchy, by the way,
    is everyone doing what seems right in their own eyes, all within their
    rights, of course.
    
    You have spoken truly that only God determines what is right and wrong.
    
    Do you think God wants us to know what is right and wrong?  If so, how
    would He let us know?  Trial and error?  But then, as Pilate asked
    after being confronted by Jesus, what is truth?

	Paul, your fishing thing is cute, but Wayne tried that one last week.
It doesn't hold water! :-)

	If someone comes in and says, "I worship Buddah. Lets spend all the
time talking about Him." then your fish story works.

	When a participant of this file says, "All other religions are doomed",
and someone responds with the above, then they aren't the ones who brought it
up.

	Now if you want to put your fish story to good use, use it when those
who would bring up other religions and such in this file. Or when they say they
are all doomed. Cuz they are treading water at that point. Or is it only those
who are perceived to be Christians can bring it up??????

	

    fresh water fishing > salt water fishing

>	Then it would make sense for no discussion to be allowed on anything
>that will have someone bring up the non-Bible issue, no?

Then it would make sense to not allow discussion on anything, no?  People can
bring up the non-Bible issue on ANY topic.

This rationale eliminates the possibilty of the existence of this conference.

Paul

To all:

Sorry for this protracted 'rathole.'  We WILL shut this down soon, but the
moderators as a whole felt that this needed to be allowed to play out, at
least for a while.

 
 re .158


 Thanks, Leslie..for a while I was walking about 1.5-2 miles each night
 and another mile or so on my lunch hour.  As the weather got a bit
 colder I cut back and started riding my excersize bike.  However, a couple
 of colds and a flu bug kinda got me off the routine.


 Jim

| <<< Note 14.169 by PAULKM::WEISS "To speak the Truth, you must first live it" >>>

| This rationale eliminates the possibilty of the existence of this conference.

	No.... what it means is you would have to eliminate a rule. The
conference could still stay open, and stay basically the same as it is. But if
you keep the Bible rule in, and that prevents someone from giving their view,
then you go against DIGITAL's rules as a one sided conversation becomes a value
judgement. 



Glen

   RE: .126 and .162

   Paul,

   Thank you for clearly restating the obvious about ::Christian, and the
   comparison with ::Christian_Perspective.

   I admire and applaud the tact, restraint, and agape love exhibited by the
   Moderators; it is clearly apparent that one of their guidelines is the
   simple question:
			"What would Jesus do?"
   In His love,

	Ron

|	Paul, your fishing thing is cute, but Wayne tried that one last week.
| It doesn't hold water! :-)

** Really, Glen?  Doesn't hold water?  What is the basis for your conclusion?
   Logic?  If logic, then whose?  Logic other than your own leads to a
   different conclusion.
   
   Since we agree that everyone has the right to be wrong, then you should
   have no problem with my saying you're wrong, right?

   You base your argument on an interpretation of Digital's rules.  We agree
   that I have the right to reject your interpretation in favor of my own,
   just as you have the right to reject my view of Scripture.  And we both
   have the right to be wrong.  On what basis do you continue to press your
   point?

>On what basis do you continue to press your point?

Sounding brass, tinkling cymbal?

| <<< Note 14.173 by ROCK::PARKER >>>


| ** Really, Glen?  Doesn't hold water?  What is the basis for your conclusion?
| Logic?  If logic, then whose?  Logic other than your own leads to a
| different conclusion.

	I gave the reason in my note. I will do it again for you.

person A:  Hey, I wanna talk about Budah, and how He is the only One to
	   follow!


your fish analogy story would be correct.


someone from:	All other religions are doomed!
Christian

person A:	Hey, that's not true. I think my religion is......



your fish analogy fails. Why? Because the conversation was started by a
christian from this file. If the fish analogy were to work, then the person
from Christian would not have been able to say what he did.

You can't have someone from in here start the conversation and then tell one
who is responding to it the fish story. 

| You base your argument on an interpretation of Digital's rules.  We agree
| that I have the right to reject your interpretation in favor of my own,
| just as you have the right to reject my view of Scripture.  

	In your life you have that right. Using Digital's resources you do not.
You have to go by their rules.




Glen

    Glen, I did not say I don't have to abide by Digital's rules for using
    their resources.
    
    I said we have the right to reject your interpretation of Digital's
    rules, just as your have the right to reject ours.
    
    And your logic still escapes me.

    Again I ask, on what basis do you continue to press your point?

	Fairness for all.

    And who defines fairness and determines what is fair?
    
    Are you pressing your point because you have determined what is fair
    based on your interpretation of Digital's rules?

| <<< Note 14.178 by ROCK::PARKER >>>

| And who defines fairness and determines what is fair?

	When using Digital's resources, Digital.

| Are you pressing your point because you have determined what is fair
| based on your interpretation of Digital's rules?

	Not based on my interpretation, based on discussions with Digital.

    We've entered the Spiral Zone, and I'm outta here!

    Fairness now that is an interesting concept, isn't it?
    
    I know for a fact as fair as I think I am with my children, that they
    themselves feel that the other one is treated more fair.
    
    Fairness?  Who promised anyone fairness in life?  Digital can't promise
    fairness at all.  How many times has their been competition in a job
    where you know that the requisition was created for specific person?
    
    All of these are subtle and intangible but they happen, are they fair?
    
    You talk about fair as if it's a given as if life really can be fair. 
    Reality is life isn't fair, as a matter of fact life is RARELY fair,
    but we learn to live in its inconsistency with a flair. :-) I rhymed.
    
    I am committed to being as fair minded as I possibly can be as
    permitted by this very unfair life we lead.
    
    In other words, no perfection though the effort is enormous.
    
    In His love,
    Nancy

    'fairness for all'
    
    I have to chuckle at the imagery of certain people standing before the
    Great White Throne judgement and saying "but every one should be let
    into Heaven - this should be made fair for everyone... maybe they did
    reject You, but Your rejecting them isn't being fair to them... but
    people's rights are being suppressed... their lifestyles are not being
    valued... " {and on and on}
    
    {sigh}

    |	Not based on my interpretation, based on discussions with Digital.
    
    Maybe you can give us Digital's phone number and email address so we
    can see what they think the rules are.

	Mike, I gave Nancy that info last week when she requested it. 

    > This rationale eliminates the possibilty of the existence of this conference.
    
    possibly not, but it sure makes some of us quit reading it even if 
    it does continue to exist.
    
    

    .185
    
    And that is okay, this conference isn't going to attract everyone. 
    Your choice is exactly that your choice, decide to participate or not
    as in EVERY OTHER CONFERENCE in this company.  Let's not forget this
    forum is not NEW, it has been established for some time.
    
    I CHOOSE to never open womannotes again.  IMO, it is not to my liking
    in both attitude of politics and religion.  I don't go to personnel
    saying they don't allow my difference to be valid without being
    moderated out of the file; and as a short time moderator there, I can
    tell you my diversity was moderated out of the file and request
    personnel to MAKE THEM treat me FAIRLY.
    
    I simply made the choice to NEVER go in that file again.  I valued
    their right in that forum to be how they want to be, period.
    
    Nancy

    [e-mail about my -.1 made me realize it's error...]
    
    Doh!  I misread "rationale" for "rathole", giving my reply an entirely
    different meaning.  My point is that the endless bickering going on
    makes one tire of the Notesfile; I for one often skip reading because I
    know half of the notes will will be this arguing and will bore/anger
    me.
    
    

    .187
    
    And Steve tell me can you narrow down the bickering to certain
    individuals?
    
    

    argh - I love notes.  s/-.1/.185/  
    
    and yes, I could choose not to read here again, but is that what
    everyone wants -- to drive folks away?  I'd think not.  Just keep in
    mind that for every "vocal, active" notesfile participant, there are
    many "lurkers" who are forming their opinion, right or wrong, of the
    participants and the subject in general, on what they read day-to-day. 
    
    with love for you all
    -Steven
    

    I choose not to, Nancy :-)  Yes, I know there are probably <10 who
    write >90% of the "bickering" notes, but more often I'm skipping
    through them fast enough and trying not to tie names to apparent
    attitueds.  I don't read for the "bickering", I read here for the
    praise and uplifting messages, for which I do heartily thank you all.
    

    Steve,
    
    Thanks for clarifying.  Your note prompted me to remind folks they have
    that choice.  That was not meant to drive you away. :-)
    
    Nancy

    I love it when Notes is faster than Mail and almost as fast as IRC

| <<< Note 14.186 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>

| I CHOOSE to never open womannotes again.  IMO, it is not to my liking in both 
| attitude of politics and religion.  I don't go to personnel saying they don't 
| allow my difference to be valid without being moderated out of the file;

	Nancy, you asked me for info. I gave it to you. Simple as that.

| I simply made the choice to NEVER go in that file again.  I valued their right
| in that forum to be how they want to be, period.

	They DON'T have a rule that would make some things impossible to talk
about if a member of this file brings it up. For instance, saying one's
religion is doomed because it isn't Christianity, makes is impossible for
someone to respond as if you really think that a religion not based on the
Bible won't have something come up that one, doesn't include the Bible, or two,
goes against the Bible, then you are kidding yourselves. 


Glen

    .193
    
    Glen,
    
    Your accusations are false.  They are your interpretation based on a
    noting rule for one subject in this conference.  Why do you wish to
    push your agenda on us?
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy

| <<< Note 14.194 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>

| Your accusations are false.  They are your interpretation based on a
| noting rule for one subject in this conference.  Why do you wish to
| push your agenda on us?

	Nancy.... can someone from another religion say the Bible isn't what
you claim it is if one were to say everyone should follow the Bible? You know
the answer is no. 



Glen

    .195
    
    The answer is yes.  And it has happened many times.  Unbelievers have
    often wondered in here and discussed subjects typically based on
    curiousity.  This is commong and very much accepted.
    
    But why would anyone care to come in here knowing full well the
    standard/subject is Bible based Christianity and begin a discussion
    that way?  That would sure seem to me like someone looking to be 
    antagonistic which would indicate a real lack of valuing our
    difference.
    
    The spirit behind the discussion reveals the real motivation in one's
    participation here.  And that spirit typically gets revealed fairly
    quickly.  Usually by the focus of the discussion from a topic to a
    personal attack.
    
    Do you not believe that as Christians we have the right to enjoy a
    conference without constantly being attacked or harassed for our
    beliefs?  
    
    Nancy
    
    
    

| <<< Note 14.196 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>


| But why would anyone care to come in here knowing full well the
| standard/subject is Bible based Christianity and begin a discussion
| that way?  

	This is what you and others keep missing. I am talking about the
situations where PEOPLE IN HERE start a conversation, and someone joins in.
Like the example I used before, SOMEONE FROM IN HERE SAYS, "Anyone who doesn't
follow the standard the Bible sets, is lost". That is hardly someone else
starting a conversation.

| Do you not believe that as Christians we have the right to enjoy a
| conference without constantly being attacked or harassed for our beliefs?

	Live by your own AND DIGITAL's rules, and there really isn't a problem.
Start making value judgements against others when they can't respond, then
yeah, I'll be here. Why? Because you shouldn't be any different than any other
conference.


Glen

    Get a clue Glen.  Digital cannot force any employee to value another
    person's lifestyle, diversity, religion, etc., whatever you want to
    call it.
    
    All Digital can do is demand that employees not personally attack other
    employees.  
    
    If you think they can legislate my morality or make me value your
    morality you are sadly mistaken.  Not even our government does this.
    
    

Forgive me for 'jumping in' but I wanted to point out an alternate view. 

The reason you folks are having so much trouble with Glen is that he is
right, dead right.  I would recommend a review of Matt 5:25-etc. about
settling things quickly with your adversaries.  
    
    The mark of a Christian is that they will know you by your love, 
    love that is willing to die for our enemies.   

Jesus was asked about the greatest commandment, and I believe we know what
He said.   Well I would like to turn your attention to the DEC commandments
in these notes files:

RE: 2.4 from Sims
>    Finally, employees should remember that it is never appropriate to
>    spend working time in employee interest notes for non-work
>    purposes.  

Search your hearts on that...

    Welcome ::Stephens
    
    And what is your belief in Jesus Christ?  Are you a fellow believer? 
    I'd be interested in knowing more about your testimony of Jesus in your
    life.
    
    It is also interesting to note in addition to your Matthew verses, that
    another mark of a Christian is Charity and Compassion both love based
    behaviors.  There is a topic 38 dedicated to that, perhaps since you
    aren't working while you're noting to encourage us there as well.
    
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy
    
    

| <<< Note 14.198 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>

| Get a clue Glen.  Digital cannot force any employee to value another
| person's lifestyle, diversity, religion, etc., whatever you want to call it.

	Nancy, what you say above is oh so true. But they also say you can't
use their resources in any other way except THEIR way. You are not doing that.

	Have you talked to those people whose name I gave you yet?

| All Digital can do is demand that employees not personally attack other
| employees.

	When one says all other religions are doomed, it is an attack on those
who don't believe in Christianity.

| If you think they can legislate my morality or make me value your
| morality you are sadly mistaken.  Not even our government does this.

	Not sure why you ever thought this, but maybe that has to do with when
you realize that you can't make value judgements against others when they can't
respond, you can still believe the way you do, just not be able to express it
in a one way mode like it is now.



Glen

OK, Glen, you have expressed yourself.  You have made your position very
clear.  For seven years now, you have made your position very clear.  We
disagreed with it seven years ago, we still disagree with it, and will
continue to disagree with it seven years from now.  The center essence of
Christianity is that Jesus is the only way to salvation, and we will continue
to proclaim that as long as we are allowed to exist here.

I for one will no longer respond to this discussion, and I urge others to do
the same.  Seven years experience has shown that Glen will continue to
re-express the same position over and over and over as long as anyone will
discuss it with him, and the only way for it to stop is for US to stop.

Feel free to go ahead and have the last word, Glen.

'til next time...

Paul

|	Nancy.... can someone from another religion say the Bible isn't what
|you claim it is if one were to say everyone should follow the Bible? You know
|the answer is no. 
    
    Glen, you do it in here all the time so why don't you give it a rest?

    Hi, Bruce.
    
    Thanks for your exhortation to "search our hearts" regarding Digital's
    "law."
    
    I wonder if Digital would say that it is never appropriate to spend
    personal time for work purposes?
    
    In other words, do you think Digital would want employees to strictly
    obey the letter of the law, or rather comply with the spirit?
    
    /Wayne

 A couple nights this week I've gone into one of the "Fellowship Rooms"
 in the Christian section of America on Line.  What a blessing it was
 to log in and see people praising God, entering lines from hymns, scripture
 and praying for various folks.  My heart was truly blessed that there was
 such a place where people from all over the country could share their beliefs
 in the Word of God and the Lord, and the things that are taking place in their
 lives.


 Jim

    Well someone wrote me and said that note late last night could be
    interpreted as snippy.  And in some ways I guess it was.
    
    I suppose for me if I am to take "correction" from someone, I want to
    know more about them.  I have no confidence that this is a loving
    Brother in Christ who cares about his fellow Christians.  For all I
    know he has been summoned here by the one who has continually attacked
    this forum for the 4 years I've watched it.
    
    So, for that I cannot apologize for my questions nor their intent.  For
    it was clear in my heart that I truly wish to know this person better
    to take his words seriously.
    
    If that makes me less Christian, then so be it.  But I dare say that
    anyone can criticize when they have no investment in the forum.
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy

| <<< Note 14.203 by PHXSS1::HEISER "Maranatha!" >>>

| -< are you of another religion or not? >-

	No.

| Glen, you do it in here all the time so why don't you give it a rest?

	False.

    I'm so happy and here's the reason why..
    Today is a vacation day!
    :-) x 100
    
    There's another reason, my sister is here from Michigan [really from
    Texas, but that's anudder story], and we are enjoying ourselves.
    
    Hugs everyone, [even you Glen],
    :-)
    Nancy

    
    Hugs everyone, [even you Glen],


Pretty crude, Nancy.... pretty crude.

    Glen,
    
    You and I have had enough dialogue for you to know that I sincerely
    care about you.  I've come to your defense on a number of occasions as
    a moderator.  We've had our struggles but I value you as a human being
    very much.  
    
    The struggle we are currently having seems to have somehow changed your
    ability to receive from me a light-hearted hug that says, even you Glen
    in spite of our current set of conflicting points of view, I even
    embrace you.
    
    If you add anything else to that motive of genuine embracement, then
    you have missed out on the purity in which it is offered.  This for me
    is very sad.
    
    Sincerely,
    Nancy

      Hi Glen,
    
        Ya know...I am truly not certain of all of this, but one thing
        I feel fairly strong about is _emphasis_.
    
        Do you recall the description Jesus gave to the Pharisees?  He
        saw them tithing their spices and straining for gnats and He
        was amazed at their adherence to particulars all the while love
        and mercy were lost sight of.
    
        It seems to me that your emphasis on this point coupled with
        your nonemphasis on others is a bit of an emphasis problem.
        Kind of like those guys straining for those gnats!
    
        So maybe we are lunkheaded and don't have the vision you have.
        *BUT*, you could also volunteer writing efforts in exhorting to
        us a clearer vision of what Christlike love and mercy is - that
        is if such would be a priority for you (outside of this one issue
        I mean).   Paint us a clearer picture of the cross.  This is a 
        tad bit particular.  Know nothing else among us save Christ and
        Him crucified!  Get to the jugular!  Show us the Lifted One!
    
        Do you see what I'm saying?
    
        Continue to labor to 'help us see.'  But, if there is a balance
        of emphasis, don't hammer the same tired points.  There are
        other issues out there!  Many other ways to more rightly express
        what it means to love as Christ loves!
    
        If you are not gnat-straining, I would expect you to be impelled
        to need to show us light on these other aspects as well.
    
        But, if you have not, well...                          
    
    						Tony

| <<< Note 14.211 by YIELD::BARBIERI >>>


| Continue to labor to 'help us see.'  But, if there is a balance
| of emphasis, don't hammer the same tired points.  

	When things fall under the DIGITAL way, then the same tired points
won't have to be hammered. Pretty simple, Tony.

	Nancy, there was supposed to be a :-) at the end of what I said. Sorry
about that.



Glen

      But, Glen, I still see it as straining at gnats if other examples
      of what it means to love seen conspicuously absent by you.
    
      Did you get my emphasis idea???

    Today was a wonderful day with my sister in Monterey!  We had a joyous
    time enjoying God's creation as so vividly displayed in the Monterey
    Bay Aquarium.  Our Lord truly is a magnificent artist.
    
    

 I love Monterey..used to spend a lot of time there

    Mexico or California?

 California, wise guy

    Yesterday, at my second job, I got the chance to
    encourage a young lady (she's 15) to stick to her guns with regards to
    staying a virgin until marriage.  It sort of came out of the blue, and
    caught me off guard a bit (it's not exactly a normal admission these
    days from young ladies).
    
    I've only known her for about three months, and felt quite good that
    she was comfortable enough to bring up the subject of dating, which
    quickly lead to the discussion of her guy problems (guys only want one
    thing, and she can't seem to keep a boyfriend because she won't give it
    up), and the peer pressue involved with being a virgin (seems that some
    call her a "virgin-whore", which I told her was an oxymoron... it seems
    that some kids are in desperate need of a remedial English class).
    
    It was a very nice little talk, all in all, and I pray that I helped to
    confirm for her her choice in remaining a virgin.  It's my opinion that
    she really wants to save herself, but that she needs a little
    encouragement.  The fact that she brought it up at all, shows (to me)
    that she may have started doubting herself a bit, or perhaps her
    resolve was weakening. 
    
    I praise God for allowing me to help in what little way I can.  I'm not
    gifted with gab, as some are, but I think I managed to get a certain
    point across... adding in a bit of "guy" perspective for her to
    consider.  I told her that if she ever wants to talk, that I will be
    happy to listen.
    
    I feel pretty good about the whole thing, actually, though the praise
    belongs to God for anything positive that may result from this
    conversation.  It's not often that I get the chance to help out is such
    a way.  
    
    It would be nice if you would say a little prayer for Nicki in this
    regard.  Early sexual activity can do so much damage to a young lady. 
    She's a pretty girl, who I imagine a lot of guys would like to "score"
    with.  I'm sure this doesn't help matters much.
    
    
    -steve

    Praise God, Steve!  That's exciting!
    
    What an encouragement to see Christ at work in His chosen people.  As
    our Father sent Him into the world, so He sends us.
    
    'Twas no accident that Nicki crossed your path.
    
    /Wayne

    
    I second that. Praise God !  God is so awesome!
    
    Sent up a prayer and will do when remembered.
    
    			-JimGle-
    
    

    Me too, Steve!  Amen!  I find it so unique to see a young man give
    counsel in this regard, it shows character, the shining kind!
    
    :-)
    Nancy

    God is still in the business of setting up divine appointments.

 Amen..

    Yeah, way to go Steve!  I'm really happy about this!  (Will
    pray too.)
    
    					Tony

    Thanks all...
    
    I thought it would be nice to post something positive, for a change.  8^)

    that deserves a great big
              __  __ ______ _   _   _
        /\   |  \/  |  ____| \ | | | |
       /  \  | \  / | |__  |  \| | | |
      / /\ \ | |\/| |  __| | . ` | | |
     / ____ \| |  | | |____| |\  | |_|
    /_/    \_\_|  |_|______|_| \_| (_)

    .137:
    
�resp:	my religion supports the true One. Buddah.
    
    Who's that?
    
    Dick

Replies querying how the 'Statement of faith" can be discussed have been 
moved from chit-chat to note 40.* for clarity generally...

							Andrew
							(co-mod)

    Hi,
    
    I've been running the Rainbow's group at my church this year.  They are
    4-5 year olds.  Its sort of like a Christian Scouting program out of
    the Assembles of God Church.  
    
    Anyway I've been having fun and I thought I would share some of the
    things we have done.  Perhaps someone else will find them useful.
    
    
    Jill
    

                        RAINBOWS Jan 22, 1997
    
    January memory verse:
    
       "I am weak but He is strong"  2 Corinthians 12:10
    
    
    Lesson:
    "For the battle is not yours, but God's."  2 Chronicles 20:15
    
    2 Chronicles 20
    
    Some men came and told King Jehoshaphat a huge army is coming to
    attack.  Jehoshaphat was alarmed and went to ask the Lord what to
    do.  All the people of Judah came together to seek help from the Lord;
    they came from every town in Judah to seek the Lord. 
    
    Then Jehoshaphat said:
    
    O Lord.  You rule over all the kingdoms.  Power and Might are yours.
    No one can defeat You.  Please help us.  We do not know what to do,
    but our eyes are on You.
    
    Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon Jahaziel.  He said:
    
    Listen this is what the Lord says to you:  Do not be afraid or
    discouraged because of this great army.  For the battle is not yours,
    but God's.  Tomorrow march down against them.  You will not have to
    fight this battle.  Take up your positions; stand firm and see what
    the Lord will do for you.
    
    All the people fell down in worship before the Lord and praised the
    Lord with a loud voice.  
    
    Early in the morning they left.  Jehoshaphat said:
    
    Listen to me.  Have faith in the Lord your God and you will be
    successful. 
    
    Then Jehoshaphat told men to sing to the Lord and to praise Him.  They
    said:
    
    Give thanks to the Lord,
    for his love lasts forever.
    
    As they began to sing and praise, the Lord set confusion on the enemy
    armies.  One army attacked two others and after they killed them all
    they began to kill each other.
    
    When King Jehoshaphat and his men got there they saw only dead bodies,
    no one had escaped.
    
    There was so much treasure it took three days to collect it.   On the
    fourth day they all got together and praised the Lord.  They named
    that place the valley of Beracah because Beracah means Praise.
    
    

    I was praying about my Rainbow group asking for a way to show them
    that God was a good loving God who cares about them instead of a
    demanding punishing terrifying God who watches them constantly.  You
    know what I mean.  Anyway this is what developed.  It goes with our
    memory verse for this month too.
        
    We are starting out making sheep.  They are really really hysterical
    looking!  I took half a toilet paper tube stuck on some legs with
    white pipe cleaners and a styrofoam ball for a head.  Then we glued on
    cotton balls all over.  Its very cute!
        
        
       
                        RAINBOWS January 29, 1997
    
    
    January memory verse:
    ---------------------
       "I am weak but He is strong"  2 Corinthians 12:10
    
    
    Lesson:
    -------
    Matthew 18:14 "God is not willing to let any of these little ones be
    lost."
    
    
    The Parable of the Lost Sheep.  Matthew 18:10-14
    
    Jesus is the good Shepherd.  Sheep are just like little children.
    They need to be taken care of, they need to be loved, they need to be
    fed and protected from wolves.
    
    Jesus said if He had 100 sheep and one wandered off, He would not stop
    looking until He found it.  Each sheep is special to Jesus just like
    you are!
    
    "In the same way Our Father God who is in heaven is not willing that
    any of these little ones should be lost." 
    
    God made us all special to be with Him.  He loves us all.
    
    
    Tonight we:
    -----------
    We made sheep to go with our story.  We learned a new praise song with
    the Church music director. "My life is in you Lord, my strength is in
    you Lord, ..."
    
    

                        RAINBOWS February 5, 1997
    
    
    February memory verse:
    ---------------------
       "We love because God first loved us."   1 John 4:19
    
    
    Lesson:
    -------
    The Good Samaritan  Luke 10:30-37
    
    A man was traveling down the road.  Robbers attacked him and left him
    laying there half dead.  A priest walked by and saw him but kept
    walking.  A Levite also passed him by.  But a Samaritan saw him and
    helped him.  He bandaged his wounds.  He put the man on his own donkey
    and took him to an inn and took care of him.  He gave 2 silver coins
    to the innkeeper to look after the hurt man until he returned.
    
    Which of the 3 do you think was a helper to the poor man?
    
    Jesus said, be like that man, help others.
    
    Rainbows are helpers.
    
    
    Tonight we:
    -----------
    made bookmarks and baked rice crispy treats to put in the care
    packages that the Mom's are sending to the college students for
    Valentine's day.
    
    Rainbows are helpers.  We love because God first loved us.
    
    

                        RAINBOWS February 26, 1997
    
    
    February memory verse:
    ---------------------
       "We love because God first loved us."   1 John 4:19
    
    
    Lesson:
    -------
    God loves everyone.
    
    
    Story, The Parable of the Lost Coin.  Luke 15:8-10
    
    A woman has ten coins.  One is named Plain Penny, this penny is
    worried that no one really likes her because she is so plain.  Then
    she gets lost.  We must find her!  We are going to go on a penny hunt
    with picture clues.  When we find her we will know how important even
    Plain Penny is to us and God.
    
    
    Tonight we:
    -----------
    Made paper wallets to keep our 10 pennies in.  We learned that even a
    plain penny is important to us and God.  We made instant chocolate
    pudding.
    
    

    
    	We had a very moving service yesterday.
    
    	Our pastor and his wife are on vacation, so the pastor's
    	son gave the message.  He is our youth pastor.
    
    	He gave a very stirring message on "Why do you come to church",
    	then talked about different ways we worship God.  After the
    	message, he called the worship team from the youth group
    	up to the front, and they led us in worship and prayer.
    	(We usually depart just after the message, with worship
    	being only at the beginning of service.  This change
    	in normal routine was clearly orchestrated by the Lord.)
    
    	It was so AMAZING to watch the teens come alive when we
    	began to worship.  I had tears in my eyes just seeing
    	how much they all loved to the Lord.  As worship continued,
    	you could see people being touched by the Lord.  I was
    	moved with a desire to just open up the closed off places
    	in my heart to the Lord, and to repent for having closed
    	doors to him in the first place.  I was in tears by the
    	second song, and realized how much I'd been trying to	
    	do things on my own lately, rather than leaning on Him.
    
    	I felt such refreshment after the tears subsided, and was
    	filled with peace and joy.  
    
    	Many hearts were blessed yesterday.
    	Karen
    
    
    	

Glory, Karen!!! That's wonderful!

Paul

    I agree.  That is wonderful!  The soft ways in which the Lord deals
    with us reveals His hand of mercy.  Thank you Karen for sharing this!

    ARe there any Win95 gurus on board?
    
    If so, could you send me email I have question regarding modem
    dial-up.
    
    Nancy JULIET::morales_na

    Problem solved!

    Tony, re: "node unreachable"...
    
    dunno cobber. seems to be fine from Oz ;') (and your place)
    
    I did see some mail that there was a fire in the complex that Yukon:: is
    located, and that the machine would be 'out of action' for a time - but
    I was in the conference yesterday, so "I dunno" {shrug shoulders}
    
    H

 Saw a bumper sticker yesterday that has been on my mind ever since:

 "What happened to my country?"


 "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves and
 pray then I will hear...and heal their land"



 Jim

    just point it out if this has been answered elsewhere...  What's
    "B.C.(E.)" mean?  I've seen it several places where I would have
    expected "B.C." instead.  Is this some sort of PC way of saying
    something happened Before Christ without admiting that Christ lived? 
    

 Before Christian Era, I believe is what it means.  Why it is being used
 I don't know, but I suspect that your guess may be correct.



 Jim

    Before Common Era.  You guessed right as to why it is used.  

 that's right..I forgot they removed the name "Christian"

Compare and Contrast:

	A.D. = Anno Domini (The Year of The Lord)
	C.E. = Common Era

	B.C. = Before Christ (Before the Anointed One)
	B.C.E. = Before Common Era

The primary objection to the use of A.D. and B.C. comes from Jewish and
atheist scholars who do not wish to use an abbreviation identifying Jesus
as either "The Lord" or "The Anointed One".

/john

    Thanks.
    

 
 Does anybody know when the next CBD warehouse sale is?



 Jim

	I'm sure somebody does.

 I knew it..

    Go see my BIL at Morning Star and tell him I said to give you a
    discount.

 that's kind of a long haul from Derry!

    My BIL has a real problem with the CBD's of the world, and it's not
    just because of $.  He told me he'll match CBD's price on anything.  He
    views Morning Star Bookstores as a ministry.  They often get people in
    their stores that are just spiritually searching and they are able to
    witness to those people.  You don't get the ministry aspect from CBD -
    you're just an address and account #.
    
    Mike

    
    RE: .247 Which Morning Star location is this ?
    
    The one in Fitchburg or Shrewsbury ?
    
    				-JimGle-
    

 I'd prefer to purchase from my local bookstore, actually.  In fact I haven't
 been to a CBD sale, or purchased anything from them in at least 4 years.  My
 local store has taken very good care of me.  In fact, I think I'll get them
 to order what I'm looking for.


 Jim

    All the MorningStar's are owned by my BIL: Fitchburg, Shrewsbury,
    Worcestor, Providence, Springfield.

    
    WOW!  I'm sure there are headaches in owning them all
    but what a blessing for him!
    
    				Thanks,
    				-JimGle-
    

    He's typically at the Fitchburg store.

 Right...we'll probably get punched and charged double ;-)

    
    	;-)
    

    Actually I told Carl to punch Jim in the nose and kick him in the butt 
    (if he shows up).

    Mike, what's the address of the Providence store, I'm from RI.
    
    Peter
    

    Don't know, but I can find out.  I believe it's in N. Providence.

    I posted a rather rude note in the manhood topic.  Does the lack of
    response mean that the men here agree with it?  :-)
    

    that was rude?  Heck, I laughed out loud, shared it with m co-worker
    (who laughed out loud), then printed it out.
    
    
    but then again, both of us are guys, so maybe we just don't know what's
    rude :-)
    

    grins :-)

    well,
    
    having only just opened this conference today, before a
    FOUR-DAY-WEEKEND :') :') :'), I must admit to feeling more than a
    little...
    
    Amused :')
    
    H

Jsut awful the ideas the enemy puts in people's heads. Last count I
heard was 39 suicides in California. Apparently, they thought they were
going to meet a UFO behind the Hale-Bopp comet. They are in for a very,
very, very big surprise.

8*(

Incredible, isn't it.  Apparently one of the members sent a video tape to a 
former member saying it was time to "shed their containers" and meet the space
ship that was behind the comet..



"seeking whom he may devour..."

    Huh?  What are you guys rambling about?

 39 people committed suicide in a home near San Diego. 



 Jim

    Whhhaaaaatttt????? Why?  Do you have the news online?

MSNBC web site as a very detailed report.

R. 0 my people, what have I done unto thee, or wherein have I wearied thee?  
Testify against me.

V. Because I brought thee forth from the land of Egypt: thou hast prepared a 
Cross for thy Saviour.

R. Agios 0 Theos.  Holy God.  Agios ischyros.  Holy, Mighty.  Agios 
athanatos, eleison imas.  Holy and Immortal, have mercy upon us.

V. Because I led thee through the desert forty years, and fed thee with 
manna, and brought thee into a land exceeding good: thou hast prepared a 
Cross for thy Saviour.

R. Agios 0 Theos.  Holy God.  Agios ischyros.  Holy, Mighty.  Agios 
athanatos, eleison imas.  Holy and Immortal, have mercy upon us.

V. What more could I have done for thee that I have not done?  I indeed did 
plant thee, 0 my vineyard, with exceeding fair fruit: and thou art become 
very bitter unto me: for vinegar, mingled with gall, thou gavest me when 
thirsty: and hast pierced with a spear the side of thy Saviour.

R. Agios 0 Theos.  Holy God.  Agios ischyros.  Holy, Mighty.  Agios 
athanatos, eleison imas.  Holy and Immortal, have mercy upon us.

V. I did scourge Egypt with her first-born for thy sake: and thou hast 
scourged me and delivered me up.

R. 0 my people, what have I done unto thee, or wherein have I wearied thee?  
Testify against me.

V. I led thee forth out of Egypt, drowning Pharaoh in the Red Sea: and thou 
hast delivered me up unto the chief priests.

R. 0 my people, what have I done unto thee, or wherein have I wearied thee?  
Testify against me.

V. I did open the sea before thee: and thou hast opened my side with a 
spear.

R. 0 my people, what have I done unto thee, or wherein have I wearied thee?  
Testify against me.

V. I did go before thee in the pillar of cloud: and thou hast led me unto 
the judgment hall of Pilate.

R. 0 my people, what have I done unto thee, or wherein have I wearied thee?  
Testify against me.

V. I did feed thee with manna in the desert: and thou hast stricken me with 
blows and scourges.

R. 0 my people, what have I done unto thee, or wherein have I wearied thee?  
Testify against me.

V. I did give thee to drink the water of life from the rock: and thou hast 
given me to drink but gall and vinegar.

R. 0 my people, what have I done unto thee, or wherein have I wearied thee?  
Testify against me.

V. I did smite the kings of the Canaanites for thy sake: and thou hast 
smitten my head with a reed.

R. 0 my people, what have I done unto thee, or wherein have I wearied thee?  
Testify against me.

V. I did give thee a royal scepter: and thou hast given unto my head a crown 
of thorns.

R. 0 my people, what have I done unto thee, or wherein have I wearied thee?  
Testify against me.

V. I did raise thee on high with great power: and thou hast hanged me upon 
the gibbet of the Cross.

R. 0 my people, what have I done unto thee, or wherein have I wearied thee?  
Testify against me.

	Let us pray for the Jews: that the Lord our God may remove
	from their hearts the veil of unbelief; and that they may
	come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ our Lord.

		(Let us bow the knee.  ...   Arise.)

	Almighty and everlasting God, who extendest to the unbelieving
	of the Jews the abundance of thy mercy: graciously hear our
	prayers for this people whose hearts are blinded; that they
	may come to know Christ Jesus to be the Light of thy truth,
	and in him find the way out of the darkness of their
	misunderstandings.  Through the same Jesus Christ our Lord,
	who livest and reignest with thee and the Holy Spirit,
	one God, in glory everlasting.  Amen.

 ____ _    _    ____ _    _  _ _ ____   /  
 |__| |    |    |___ |    |  | | |__|  /   
 |  | |___ |___ |___ |___ |__| | |  | .    
                                                                      

 ____ _  _ ____ _ ____ ___   _ ____    ____ _ ____ ____ _  _   /  
 |    |__| |__/ | [__   |    | [__     |__/ | [__  |___ |\ |  /    
 |___ |  | |  \ | ___]  |    | ___]    |  \ | ___] |___ | \| .     



 ___ _  _ ____   _    ____ ____ ___     _ ____    ____ _ ____ ____ _  _ 
  |  |__| |___   |    |  | |__/ |  \    | [__     |__/ | [__  |___ |\ | 
  |  |  | |___   |___ |__| |  \ |__/    | ___]    |  \ | ___] |___ | \| 
                                                        

 _ _  _ ___  ____ ____ ___    /
 | |\ | |  \ |___ |___ |  \  / 
 | | \| |__/ |___ |___ |__/ .  
                               

 ____ _    _    ____ _    _  _ _ ____   /
 |__| |    |    |___ |    |  | | |__|  / 
 |  | |___ |___ |___ |___ |__| | |  | .  

    Last Wednesday, I took the family unit shopping at Metrocenter Mall. 
    It was spring break and the kids were driving me nuts so I figured it
    would be a good time to use up some of those Christmas gift
    certificates.  About halfway through our journey, we stopped at Lerner's 
    mostly because of the state of laughter induced by all the retro clothing 
    stores are now selling.  My wife said, "I could raid all the old
    pastel-colored clothes in my mom's closet and be trendy today!"  

    I'm standing near the opening of Lerner's with my boys while the women
    checked out this year's ugly fashions.  All of a sudden I noticed these
    2 guys strolling through the mall.  One of them I recognized right
    away.  He's on the tube all the time.  Baseball's Mr. Nike in the flesh!
    It was unbelievable how he was getting through a public place without
    being harassed!  I pointed him out to my oldest son, Alex, and he
    couldn't believe it either.  We decided to fix that real quick.  I
    said, "Alex, get a pen and piece of paper from mom quick and go chase
    him down."  This is why wives are always prepared with those large
    purses.  I also figured regardless of his reputation, a kid is less
    likely to get shunned.  

    When Alex caught up to Mr. Nike, he was indulging at the calorie
    gallery known as Cinnabon.  I couldn't figure out why a multi-million
    dollar superstar would treat his body this way, but obviously it works
    for him.  Alex was nervously excited so he just simply called him by
    name, asked for his autograph, and presented him with the paper and
    pen.  Mr. Nike cordially obliged and Alex thanked him.  

    What is even more surprising is all the people who came up to us
    afterwards asking who's autograph we just obtained.  Pretty sorry for a
    city who has a major league team throwing out their first ball next year.

    Alex has been on cloud 9 ever since, his first autograph from a major
    sports superstar.  The paper reads:
    
    "Ken Griffey Jr."

 Phew!  I knew who Mr. Nike is ;-)


 I remember years ago when I took my son, Chris to a Red Sox game and
 we got there real early and he got a bunch of autographs..he was thrilled.

    We put it in a frame next to my Larry Bird one. ;-)

 There you go!

    Now what happened to my old autograph book.....

    It had most of the Australian Cricketers of the day. Including Bill
    Lawry.

Peter.

    PS. The family and I spent Easter (a four day weekend here) camping at
    a Christian Convention. Topic: The Sovereignty of God. 

    Hmmm,
    
    Peter, that sounds suspiciously like Katoomba.
    
    re: the baseball names...
    
    
    {swish}
    
    that's the sound of the conversation going above my head ;')
    
    H

Does anyone have a pet meerkat?

 Yes, I'm sure someone does.

New England weather is so... so... so...

Sunday: 

   65 degrees, beautiful sunny spring day.

Today, a mere two days later:

   Digging out from the biggest snowstorm of the season - 16" at my house
   and still coming down.  Yow!!!!

Paul

 Somehow or other I managed to make it to work today..not too many people
 here.


 Jim

    80 degrees and sunny here.

 Quiet, you!

    We are expecting 24�C here today. Heading for Winter, but no snow (well
    maybe a flake or two if we are lucky :-)
    
    Peter.

    I did make it in today.  We measured 22inches of snow!  What an April
    fools day!
    
    
    Jill
    

    I'd almost rather be digging out of snow than sloggin through the
    pollen -- here in Atlanta the pollen count is once again setting
    record highs.  Praise be that I don't have my father's allergies!
    
    -Steven (who's given up washing the cars for the time being and 
    just accepted the fact that he drives something green this month)

    Here in (not so) New England, the pollen, mold spore, fungus, etc
    counts have been record setting; at least according to my doctor.
    My usually "seasonal" allergies are year round......hmmm....
    either God's wrath? plagues? , gummint testing on innocent masses...
    or a messed up climate becomming even more so.
    
    I hope the pollen counts in Taxachusetts this year are not as
    bad as for the last coupla years....these years round low and
    not so low grade background headaches, etc are wearing thin.
    
    believe me though digging out of snow is equally bad, especicially
    if it runs into Spring....well This coming May 9th marks my
    "20th" year at Digital.....a memorable date indeed. My ex-wife
    and I had spent the day at Plum Island at the beach the weekend
    before. On that fateful Monday, it began snowing on my long 
    drive to Westminster. First day at Dec and I got to go home early
    when the plant was closed......got about 17-21" that day in a
    driving blizzard....May 9th!....GEEESH!
    
    Well so long as no volcanoes erupt, stray asteroids/comets hit
    us. Sorry but i don't relish it like some of you, "oh praise
    the Lord for fulfilling prophecy and punishing a smarmy and
    sinful world"....or whatever.
    
    Just a deep gut level feel, something tells me 97 will be a
    banner year of weirdness and disaster. 
    
    ttfn, ray 

    .286
    
    Hi Ray,
    
>    Well so long as no volcanoes erupt, stray asteroids/comets hit
>    us. Sorry but i don't relish it like some of you, "oh praise
>    the Lord for fulfilling prophecy and punishing a smarmy and
>    sinful world"....or whatever.
    
    Personally, I have mixed feelings on this manner of prophetic
    fulfillment.  On the one hand, I'm excited by the literal fulfillment
    of prophesy, and I know that the Lord's coming is closer at hand.  On
    the other hand, it grieves me to see people lose their homes and lives
    to disasters.  Even though we know these things are going to happen,
    that there is nothing we can do to stop it, it is still a terrible
    thing to watch the destruction.  There's also a fascination aspect of
    this, too, with a bit of awe thrown in.
    
    Such things trigger introspection, too.  Am I really ready to meet
    the Lord?  I wonder... I've been very busy lately, but not especially
    busy for the Lord.  Perhaps I'm wasting my talents God has given me,
    and am not getting any closer to accomplishing what I'm been put on
    this earth to do. 
       
>    Just a deep gut level feel, something tells me 97 will be a
>    banner year of weirdness and disaster. 
 
    You may be right.  Look at how the year has started.  We've got a good
    head start on disasters.  In Ohio, we've experienced near-record flooding
    already, and in Northern Kentucky they've had the worst flooding since
    the 1930's.  And how about those April snows in the NE, the major
    flooding out west, and the killer tornadoes in Arkansas (and probably a few
    other states).  I'm probably missing a few events, too.
    
    And on the weirdness headlines, we have the suicides of 38 people, who
    were deceived into believing that their salvation was a UFO trailing
    the Hale Bop comet.
    
    All these things have happened in the first three months of 1997.
    I wonder what the other nine months have in store for us.
    
    
    -steve 

    We even had a 3.7 earthquake on Monday, centered between the Grand
    Canyon and Flagstaff.  First time that's happened since I've been here
    (1980).

    .287
    
      Well, hmmm! considering how much we (Christian and non alike) 
    come to view relaity as "predictable"...the sun comes up, it goes
    down, etc, etc, business as usual. Now what happens when a rather
    large meteor....oh lets say slams into elay (L.A. seems to happen 
    all the time in disaster flix), do we on the right coast all bounce 
    up in the air; does Boise, IDaho become prime beachfront property?
    And how about the millions and millions....bebbee billions that 
    perish? It will keep what media talking heads are left with a lot
    of job security....Oh they do love to wallow in misery and suffering;
    sure does sell news. Also funny how people love misery. I must be
    getting old as I hate to listen or watch the news....very depressing.
    
    But then a volcano could erupt in San Francisco or NYC; that would be a 
    hot news item. With all the obsession in the media regarding disaster;
    comets, meteors, floods, plagues....oh yeah and them lil UFO guys.
    
    Perhaps there's no significance to all the UFO stuff, although i find
    it fascinating from a Sci-fi viewpoint, but then i was alaways a 
    sci-fi space opera junkie. For a while the ET's were friendly, now
    they're back and kicking butt, stealing our planet. ID4 was sorta
    OK, a nice inter-gallactic Cowboys and Indians, "shoot'em up."
    Personally i enjoyed "The Arrival" more; nasty covert, ugly ET's,
    lotsa Alfred Hitchcock suspense, etc....mes culpa, i have sinned,
    i enjoy sci-fi...
    
    But in ending, i had a number of long winded chats with Irena P,
    a few years back about the sharp increase in the wierdness quotient
    and our gut/heart feelings on the matter.
    
    The heaven's gate suicide is small potatoes compared to the jim jones
    massacre, but that took place offshore in Africa, this was at home.
    
    I suppose a cosmic accident like comet, etc ramming would definitely
    disrupt the illusions provided by all the hi-tek, electronic slight
    of hand "miracles" we've whipped up; a world without the web, teevee,
    instant worldwide anything....
    
    ttfn, ray

    .289
    
    Let's hope a large meteor doesn't hit *anywhere* on land.  There isn't
    any "safe" place in such an event.  A large one striking land could alter 
    weather patterns for years to come, the worst effect being
    a diminishing of the sun's radiation to the earth (can you say food
    shortages?).  Of course, a large meteor (one that is, say, a couple of 
    miles in diameter), would vaporize everything within [30?] miles of impact,
    and send firestorms for another 150ish (these are guesses based upon fading
    knowledge  8^) ).  It would leave a rather large hole in the ground,
    too, that would be quite unattractive.
    
    If it hit on the west coast, california would disappear into the ocean,
    as San Adreas would most likely be, uhm... destabalized.  The network of
    fault lines in the west would all likely be disturbed, which would
    no doubt magnify the aftershocks of the impact.  Who knows, maybe that
    big fault line down the center of the nation would be caused to slip,
    too.  In any case, I think the impact would be heard and felt
    across most of the country.  Don't know if those on the right coast
    would bounce or not.  8^)
    
    Another possibility is that the "ring of fire" would be pushed into
    activity, triggering earthquakes and volcanic eruptions throughout this
    region.  There's a certain LARGE volcano sitting right next to one of the 
    (if not *the*) largest city in the world, too (Mexico City).  Wouldn't 
    want to live there next to that monster.  Can you say "toast"?  Try 
    evacuation a dozen million people in couple of hours... assuming you
    had any warning to work with.
    
    As a side note, I have to wonder who decided to found Mexico City.  Did
    they look around at all?  I mean, it's not like this HUGE volcano is
    hidden or anything.  I can just see the founder looking up at the
    mountains and saying..."Wow! look at that huge conical shaped mountain
    spouting smoke!  It's too cool!  THIS is where I want to live."  It may be 
    dormant right now, but it is far from being an extinct (dead) volcano 
    (remember Mt. St. Helens?  It was dormant, too).
    
    Now, if we're lucky, and the meteor touches down in an ocean, all we
    have to worry about are large waves on the coatlines of this ocean
    (say, tsunamis of yet to be witnessed by man size... flooding might be
    a bit of a problem on the coastal areas (coatal areas being the coast,
    plus several miles inland).  I don't think there would
    be a structure left standing on any of the affected coastal areas.
    I imagine the backwash from this wave(s) would suck the rubble 
    back into the ocean a ways.  The impact would kill a lot of
    fish, too.
    
    But I digress... and rather badly at that.

    |    up in the air; does Boise, IDaho become prime beachfront property?
    
    I sure hope not, Ray.  I have a brother-in-law who lives in Nampa (west
    of Boise).  It's okay with me if west Phoenix is on the waterfront
    though ;-)

|    As a side note, I have to wonder who decided to found Mexico City.  Did
|    they look around at all?  I mean, it's not like this HUGE volcano is
    
    Maybe it was an Aztec god and they wanted to be close to it?
    

 I'll be on vacation beginning Friday 4/4, and won't be back til 4/21!  Taking
 a leisurely Amtrak trip to the SF area for my sister's wedding (I may check
 in here tomorrow, however).


 God Bless, y'all!



 Jim

    If it was football season you might have run into John Madden too.  Are
    you afraid of flying?

 Madden has a bus, now...I'm not afraid of flying...I love to fly, but
 I also love trains..and I have plenty of vacation time, and plenty of
 reading to catch up on.


 Jim

    > Let's hope a large meteor doesn't hit *anywhere* on land.  
    
    or on the seas, for that matter -- the amount of water displaced into
    the atmosphere would also change wx patterns for some time and the
    resulting waves would have the potential to cause much havok as well.
    

    /me chuckles...
    
    Source: Electronic Telegraph - 
    
    CHRISTIAN unity went a little too far for some parishioners after an
    Anglican church broadcast its prayers into a nearby Roman Catholic
    church.
    
    

	http://www.grimmy.com/images/pol/pol73.gif

    I was going to put this in the prophesy note, but I'm only asking a
    question.  Mods move if needed. Last week I heard in the news that 
    two weeks prior a Red Heifer was born in Israel.  Also mentioned was 
    that officials, rabbi's, (not sure who) went to the farm and officially 
    blessed this as the Messianic Red Heifer.  It is to be protected for
    two years. I know that in Numbers 19 it talks about the Red Heifer, 
    but I had to leave my car (I was listening on my way to work, and I 
    was late) and missed the part on how this is associated with the 
    building of the third temple.  Can someone direct me to the scripture 
    on this. I've been looking and looking and it's
    driving me nuts.
    
    Thank you and God Bless
    Rose  

    .299
    
       I also saw reference to this on the web in the Prophe-zine
    website. This is an interesting site, which i'm on a mailing
    list for. Their url is
    
    http://www.prophezine.com/index.shtml
    
       Regards, ray

    Rose, 

    One Scripture reference is in Numbers 19, towards the beginning of 
    the chapter. The relationship between the red heifer and the building
    of the 3rd temple is basically that in order to serve in the temple
    there must be ritual purification for the priests and people, and this
    is achieved only with the ashes of the red heifer mixed with clean 
    water. There has not been a red heifer in Israel that meets the Biblical
    qualifications since the destruction of the 2nd temple. There were plans
    to ship red heifers from the U.S. to Israel, but this heifer was born
    naturally in Israel of a black and white mother and a dun colored father. 

    On Sunday there was a front page story in the Boston Globe about the red 
    heifer - with a color picture of a rabbi standing next to the heifer 
    in question. There is also some stuff out on the internet about it. One
    place to look is http://www.iahushua.com/prophezi.htm  There is a short
    article there, not a lot of detail, but enough to get you started.

    Leslie

Oops, I was distracted in the middle of writing my note by work for quite
a long time, and when I finally entered it, I saw that Ray had already 
referenced the same web site. 

Leslie

    Zola Levitt did a show on this a couple years ago.  Back then about 200
    were found in Canada, bought, and shipped to Israel.  Is this really
    new news?

    It seems to be new news given that the 200 from Canada were not widely
    reported on. Did that actually happen?  And isn't a red heifer's birth
    occuring naturally in the land of Israel much more striking than 
    people importing them from somewhere else?

    Leslie

Of course, if all this is real and relevant, and if it is truly God's will
that this heifer has been born and that the Aaronic priesthood and sacrifice
is intended to resume, then Christianity is a sham.

/john

    Leslie, maybe it is the first offspring of the Canadian immigrants ;-)
    
    John, I don't 100% agree, but it would be cause for alarm and further
    investigation.  Paul through the Holy Spirit wrote in 1 Corinthians 15 
    that our faith is null and void if Christ hadn't arose from the dead.  
    
    The exciting thing about this news for Christians, if it is part of
    God's Eschatological Plan, is that we are another step closer to the 3rd 
    Temple (and the revelation of the AntiChrist) and Christ's Second Coming.

The third temple is Christ himself.

John,

I disagree with your perspective on things, but I don't have time to go
into detail about it now. Perhaps next week. I do not think the building
of physical third temple and resumption of some sacrifices in any way 
annuls who Yeshua is, what he did, or the writings of Paul and the other
New Covenant writers. I know these statements of mine require some 
explanation, and I do hope to have more time over the next weekend and 
next week to go into that.

Mike,

According to the article in the paper, this red heifer was not the product
of imported animals - she was born of a black and white mother, and brown or
dun colored father on a religious kibbutz.

Leslie

    Mods, I think the discussion of the red heifer here in Chit Chat should
    be moved to Mike's new topic 68.
    
    There's sufficient reason to see some unusual significance in the red
    heifer, and we would be prudent to not lose the stuff in Chit Chat to
    normal purging. :-)
    
    Thanks.
    
    /Wayne

	It's amazing.... the 2nd one on the rules changes. It was never
challenged to begin with. Too funny. 

Neither amazing nor funny.  Yes, we know that the second thing on the list was
not challenged.  We simply thought that since we were going to discuss the
status of the file with HR anyway, we might as well be thorough.

Were you making assumptions about other motives we must have had?

Paul

| <<< Note 14.311 by PAULKM::WEISS "To speak the Truth, you must first live it" >>>

| Were you making assumptions about other motives we must have had?

	Paul, when HR tells me that I wanted that topic to be talked about
again, and I know I never made any mention of it, then there is no assuming
going on. They thought I wanted it talked about. They got that impression from
whoever they talked to. Amazing and funny...yes.



Glen

I think it's time this went offline, if you want to continue it. 
Miscommunication exists here, and this is not the place to hash it out.

Paul

    Glen,  your challenges of this conference have always included that
    noting policy as your basis for challenge.

	No... it has used the same rule to apply to other areas of the
conference so that it remains consistant. I really don't care if we can or
can't talk about that subject. But the reasons for that rule also apply
elsewhere with other topics. 

This is *EXACTLY* the sort of conversation we went to HR specifically to
eliminate.

Glen, we chose not to make the notice of the conversation with HR and the rules
changes personal, but to speak in only general terms.  You have chosen to
publically ridicule and personalize the result.  So be it.

We asked HR about all aspects of this file.  Our rules, our Standard, our
exclusion of a single point of discussion.  And the result is, as noted in the
reply to note 1:

 o The exclusion on the discussion of homosexuality was validated.

 o We *specifically* asked about proclaiming other 'unpopular' truths, such
   as the fact that salvation is through Jesus alone, and received NO other
   limitations on what we could proclaim.

Your argument has been heard and disagreed with, and our position has now been
officially validated by the Human Resources department of this corporation.

Any further notes about this subject will be deleted without prior notice.

Paul
Co-Moderator

    >According to Reuters, the dazed crew of a Japanese trawler was plucked
    >out of the Sea of Japan earlier this year clinging to the wreckage of
    >their sunken ship.  Their rescue was followed by immediate imprisonment
    >once authorities questioned the sailors on their ship's loss.  To a man
    >they claimed that a cow, falling out of a clear blue sky, had struck the
    >trawler amidships, shattering its hull and sinking the vessel within
    >minutes.  They remained in prison for several weeks, until the Russian
    >Air Force reluctantly informed Japanese authorities that the crew of one
    >of its cargo planes had apparently stolen a cow wandering at the edge of
    >a Siberian airfield, forced the cow into the plane's hold and hastily
    >taken off for home.  Unprepared for live cargo, the Russian crew was
    >ill-equipped to manage a frightened cow rampaging within the hold.  To
    >save the aircraft and themselves, they shoved the animal out of the
    >cargo hold as they crossed the Sea of Japan at an altitude of 30,000
    >feet.