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Conference ilbbak::us_sales_service

Title:US_SALES_SERVICE
Notice:Please register in note 2; DVNs in note 31
Moderator:MCIS3::JDAIGNEAULT
Created:Thu May 16 1991
Last Modified:Tue Sep 03 1996
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:226
Total number of notes:1486

62.0. "Licensing issues that "must" be addressed!" by PHDVAX::RICCIO (Bundy in 92!) Thu Jan 09 1992 16:00

    
    
    
        I thought this was (and has been) important enough of a message
    that I'm directing it to Bob Hughes "personally".
    
       I'm currently part of the G.E. Aerospace account team working
    with large programs as a "Technical Program Mgr." As you may, or
    may not, be aware, we lost the desktop to SUN about 2 years ago.
    The program was/is called ASSIST and there were a number of reasons
    why we lost. Since that time we have "righted" what was wrong and
    the corporate account team is working on a strategy to "re-compete".
    
       Unfortunately the problem goes deeper today then not having a
    price/performance competitive "box", which we have. Or the applications
    under Ultrix they wanted/needed, which we have, or are working on.
    
      During an ALPHA PID that was presented yesterday (Jan. 8th), which
    went very well, and the customer was really impressed to the point
    they found some of the numbers (SPECmarks, I/O bus, ammount of main
    memory) hard to comprehend, before we got a chance to "pat ourselves
    on the back", the issue of licensing reared it's ugly head. Not only
    our licensing policies, but the third party policies. They thought that
    DEC was doing a better job with licensing but still had room for
    improvement. The real problem they have is with the third party
    products. An example was Oracle. It costs over $100K on a 6600-XXX
    and around $10K on a SUN server. They see more and more applications
    being ported to the SUN platform strictly based on licensing costs.
    What made it worse, at least in my mind, was we were talking to a
    room full of VMS "bigots". The last thing they want to see is the VAXes
    go away. But the reality is they can't afford the software they are
    committed to, on the VAX. 
    
       We have already seen an erosion of our installed base because of
    this problem, and it's getting worse. In my mind, there will be no
    way we (DEC) will be able to re-compete (or compete at all), no matter
    how good our strategy is, if we can't fix this problem.
    
       Now that the playing field is a lot more level in regards to price/
    performance, I believe we need to get the licensing issues caught up
    as well.
    
    
        If you'd like more details, please don't hesitate to call myself or 
    the sales exec.
    
                                             regards, Phil...
    
    Phil Riccio dtn 328-3041
    Kevin O'Hara dtn 328-3257
        
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62.1JMPSRV::MICKOLGreetings from Rochester, NYThu Jan 09 1992 20:0517
Here on the Xerox Team we have the same problem. The Corporate Computer center 
for Xerox frequently complains that their VAX environment is more costly (on a 
unit cost basis) to run than their IBM environment. They, in fact, only have 
IBM software in their IBM environment, with all of the mainframes being 
Amdahl, but that shouldn't matter. The thing that kills us is the third-party
software licensing. Two years ago when we consolidated a number of 8xxx 
systems onto a VAX 9000 and 6440 (a $4.5M deal), another $1M was required to 
upgrade the 3rd-party software licenses. It came very very close to nixing the 
whole deal. Somehow we have to leverage our software partners to follow our 
lead in software licensing strategies. I know that Oracle has announced
User-Based Licensing, but do not know the details. Others I have talked to are
considering it, but there is still a long way to go.

Regards,

Jim
Xerox Sales Support
62.2industry practice?PCOJCT::MILBERGsqueezed by the grapevineThu Jan 09 1992 21:5523
    Also on the topic of licensing, but at the 'other' end-
    
    While all (Novell, etc.) of the pc networking software vendors license
    on a server basis, we license on the client side.  The forthcoming
    versions of the Pathworks family will have LMF (License Management
    Facility) and will 'enforce' that.  Adding the issues of the
    administrative costs - tracking and billing for all client licenses and
    the service/support contracts, we are:
    
    	1.	180 out of phase with the industry 'standards'
    
    	2.	creating an administrative nightmare
    
    
    The reason that was given was 'licensing policy for a product is decided
    by the product manager'.  Perhaps this is an area that needs more
    standards!
    
    	-Barry-
    
    Moderator - if you feel this should be a new topic, rather than being
    mixed with the large machine license cost issue, please feel free to
    move.
62.3Is our licensing resulting in higher priced license?KYOA::KOCHIt never hurts to ask...Fri Jan 10 1992 08:0215
    Barry,
    
    	I don't agree about whether we license the client or the server. I
    really think it is 6 of 1, 1/2 dozen of the other when it comes to
    where the licensing occurs. We are supposed to be pricing our systems
    using the PC model. I guess the real question is whether you think we
    are really meeting that model. 
    
    	In terms of administration, I have to agree. We don't have a really
    good method for distributing licenses for many multiples of a single
    license for many systems. In one case, I had a customer who has 1500
    systems and they ordered DECforms Runtime Licenses. They got 1500
    individually BOXED pieces of paper. I don't understand our predeliction
    for delivering paper PAKs this way. Why we don't put them into a
    brightly colored envelope and save some trees is beyond me.
62.4Stay TunedHAMSTR::MURPHYSue Murphy MKO2-2/D14 dtn:264-0723Fri Jan 17 1992 15:564
    This is to acknowledge receipt of your very serious concerns on
    licensing.  Your notes have been forwarded to some individuals who
    can help formulate a full response to the points you raise. Stay
    tuned.
62.5David Stone's ReplyHAMSTR::MURPHYSue Murphy MKO2-2/D14 dtn:264-0723Tue Jan 28 1992 16:39103
    
    
         The following is a memo from David Stone, V.P. The New Software
    Group.  David's reply is as a result of reading the entries to date
    on the licensing issues you have raised.
    



TO:  SUE MURPHY@MKO


Subject: LICENSING ISSUES                                            

Susan, this is a resend.  This memo is in regard to your memo dated 22
January 1992.

Regards.




/ho






From:	MRKTNG::SPRATT       27-JAN-1992 16:35:29.46
To:	NM%HMSTR::MURPHY
CC:	SPRATT,NM%MTS$::"core::david stone",WELCH
Subj:	LICENSING ISSUES

Susan, I can offer the following with respect to the notes, comments
relative to licensing.  You can feel free to put these in the notes
file, and I would be happy to discuss them with anyone directly.

CSO/THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE ---

We cannot dictate to our Partners what their business practices and
pricing ought to be.  We are working actively with our Partners to
insure they are well aware of what initiatives we have taken with
user-licensing, and what our directions are for the future.  We have
encouraged them to look at similar models, and to take steps as
appropriate.  You may be aware that Lotus and Oracle both offer
user-licensing.  Customers consistently tell us that third party
software prices are frequently out of line.  We convey these messages,
as appropriate, but our Partners must decide for themselves what paths
to follow.


ADMINISTRATION/PAK COSTS ---

We are distributing PAKs on media right now.  This is an option for
customers in the U.S., and Europe and GIA are soon to follow.  Our
goal is to employ worldwide capabilities to distribute PAKs
electronically at the customers discretion.  This will cut the
administration and paperwork involved tremendously.  We have also
taken steps to consolidate packaging where a customer requests paper
PAKs, but it does not make sense to ship them individually.


CLIENT SERVER LICENSING ---

There is no one "right" way to license clients and servers.  To date,
we have tried to accommodate the requirements of individual PCU's
where they see a need to license in a particular way to be
competitive.  With pathworks, for example, the licenses are tied to
the clients, and give the rights for the server.  In other product
environments, it is just the reverse.  We are investigating the
opportunity for more consistency, but will not do so if it constrains
our ability to compete.  


LICENSE MANAGEMENT ---

We are well on our way to completing development of the license
management facility V2 (LMF V2).  With this, the management of
licenses, and extensions for software asset management, will be made
much more easy.  The user interface will be significantly enhanced,
the administration more streamlined, and licenses will be able to be
managed across the network.  This will be available for introduction
with our customers by the end of this calendar year.


We are working aggressively to improve our business practices and the
ease with which our customers manage their software environments.  I
hope this gives some insight into the fact that I recognize the
issues, and we are taking pro-active steps to rectify them.

If there is anything else I can provide, please let me know.

Regards.





/ho