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Conference hips::uk_audioo

Title:You get surface noise in real life too
Notice:Let's be conformist
Moderator:GOVT02::BARKER
Created:Thu Jul 28 1988
Last Modified:Mon Jun 02 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:550
Total number of notes:3847

422.0. "Questions on characteristics of Amp O/P's" by ISEQ::JSMYTH () Wed May 26 1993 12:06

Hello All,

Can somebody out there give me some advice on the characteristics of amplifier
outputs (impedance wise) and an evaluation of what I'm thinking of doing with a
multiple speaker output Amp I have. 

I have an amp rated at 80W. It has three speaker outputs: Main, Aux and
surround.

How in a typical Amp would the power handling be distributed between these
outputs. I'm disappointed with the output power of the Main o/p to which my
speakers are connected. Could I connect the speakers to both the Main and Aux
outputs to up the output power. Is this a dangerous thing to do. This is
why I'm curious about the impedance of the output stages of Amps. Will the
principle of superposition apply. It will, if the outputs are high impedance 
looking from the speakers back in. That is, each o/p will be driving the speaker
rather than the other amp o/p if the impedance is high relative to the speaker
impedance (higher would mean, say, >100 times the speaker impedance).

If anybody has done what I propose to do, any hints would be helpful. Should I
bridge the outputs at the amp or use two separate speaker cables to connect to
the speakers? Will that cause ground loops or other electronic gremlins?

Any help greatly appreciated,
Joe. 
    
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422.1HLDE01::STEENWINKELAny answer must be a subset of 42Fri May 28 1993 13:0764
    Re:.0
    
    >How in a typical Amp would the power handling be distributed between
    >these outputs. 
    
    A typical amp has just a switch for each of the output terminals to be
    connected to the actual power amplifier; with some amps it may get a
    little more involved due to load considerations, but the gist is that
    there is just one power source delivering into one or two speakers (per
    channel). Surround may be an additional low-power amp, but it's more
    likely to be a phase-shift network of sorts, connected again to the one
    power amp. 
    [*REAL* amps have just one pair of speaker terminals, slightly less
    *Real* amps have two pairs (one left, one right); speaker selector
    switches are considered No Added Value (if not heresy) :-) :-) ]
    
    >I'm disappointed with the output power of the Main o/p to which my
    >speakers are connected. 
    
    In what way? Just not loud enough? or does it distort easily when you
    crank up the level? What level? 
    
    >Could I connect the speakers to both the Main and Aux
    >outputs to up the output power. Is this a dangerous thing to do. 
    
    Depends on the way your amp is switched internally. Hooking both (+)
    terminals (while leaving (-) separate) together will *USUALLY* not harm
    your amp, but it will offer no additional power, as the lot is still
    driven by one power amp.
    
    >This is why I'm curious about the impedance of the output stages of
    >Amps. 
    
    Power amps are designed as Voltage/Voltage amps; this means LOW output
    impedance. The lower, the better generally as this means a high damping
    factor, or in other words the speaker drive units follow the amp output
    more precisely. But there are two limiting factors in amp parameters:
    voltage swing and output current. Usually, these are kind of matched
    for 4 or 8 ohm speakers. This doesn't mean that you can't use other
    impedance speakers but only that you will hit one limit way before the
    other, thus preventing you to get the specified power out of your amp.
    
    >Will the principle of superposition apply. It will, if the
    >outputs are high impedance looking from the speakers back in. That is,
    
    ... but they aren't, so, no. And, as said, they probably aren't even
    separate amps. 
    
    One way of getting more power from one amp is to bridge them (in
    another meaning of the word than yours), but this means dedicating both
    channels to a single speaker so you'd have to get a second, identical
    amp then. In this setup, you connect one speaker between the (+)
    terminals of the left and right channel of one of the amps, and feed
    one channel a normal, the other an inverted signal (some amps have a
    provision for this). The other speaker is handled by the second
    amp. You double the voltage swing across the speaker, and provided the amp
    can deliver the current, output power will be fourfold.
    
    What amp and speakers are you using? Sounds like a mighty inefficient
    set if 80 watts can't get a decent sound level.


                                                  - Rik -
    
422.2Please clarifyWELCLU::YOUNGPolicemen aren't nasty peopleFri May 28 1993 15:196
    
    I am confused by the previous reply ...the bit about bridging two
    channels of one amp to one speaker but it sounded very interesting,
    please can you clarify.
    
    Richard
422.3Amp bluesISEQ::JSMYTHFri May 28 1993 15:5127
    Rik,
    
    Thanks for the info. I have a pair of Kef Carlton III's connected to a
    Technics 880 Class AA(?) amp. I bought it in '88 when I had more money
    than sense and since then I've been trying my best to improve on the
    setup. It was a Technics one step above Midi type system. I swapped the
    original speakers for the Kef's and they were a great improvement in
    quality but the volume is still a drawback. 
    
    The speakers have a relatively low sensitivity, 86dB/w @1m. However
    before I got them I listened to them connected to a 100w NAD and they
    were perfect right up to as far as I could handle. I guess the current
    drive ability of the technics just is'nt up to it. Would this have
    anything to do with them been Class A. The double A is just marketing
    hype (which I fell for in my innocence) meaning that the stage before
    the power stage (pre-amp) is class A as well as the output stage.
    
    They use a trick to keep the output stage from overheating in that they
    use some sort of delay in the signal path so that they sample the
    volume and adjust the o/p supply rail voltage to keep up with the music
    demands. from what I know now from reading this file, I'm sure that
    this does terrible things to the dynmamic headroom and the delay surely
    adds extra noise.
    
    Oh well, I suppose I'll just have to go out and buy a decent amp,
    thanks,
    Joe. 
422.4explanationHLDE01::STEENWINKELAny answer must be a subset of 42Fri May 28 1993 16:1425
    Bridging amps: take a stereo amp, preferrably with this feature built
    in; if it is it should be mentioned in the manual, and two speakers.
    Hook each of the speakers to one of the amps in such a way that it is
    connected between the (+) terminals of the left and right channels. Now
    you drive both channels with the Left signal, one channel direct, the
    other channel inverted (this is accomplished by the 'bridged mono'
    switch if the amp has one). Figure a sine wave being fed into the amp.
    Now the left channel (+) terminal follows the sine (amplified, of
    course), the right channel (+) follows the inverted sine: the voltage
    at the right (+) terminal is the same as on the left (+) terminal, but
    has a negative value. So the voltage across the speaker is twice as
    large as when referencing between a single (+) and ground, and because
    P = V�*R, P (power) gets multiplied by 4 (6dB sound level increase)
    
    You do the same, using the other amp, for the Right channel.
    
    A simple (but flawed) analogy is to figure two men tilting a plank. If
    one end is held steady and the other moved up or down you are able to
    achieve a certain angle. Now if the second man moves the other end down
    while you move this side up, the angle gets steeper.

    Clear?

                                                  - Rik -