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Conference hips::uk_audioo

Title:You get surface noise in real life too
Notice:Let's be conformist
Moderator:GOVT02::BARKER
Created:Thu Jul 28 1988
Last Modified:Mon Jun 02 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:550
Total number of notes:3847

418.0. "Kef Carlton III info please" by ISEQ::JSMYTH () Tue May 11 1993 18:56

    
    I have a pair of Kef Carlton III's that I picked up in a swap deal.
    These were built from a kit I believe. I'd like to find out some more
    about them. They are 6ohm, 100W speakers, 89db/w @1m 2 way with passive bass
    kicker. Any idea's about what kind of amp I should be driving these
    with. I have a crappy Technics 80Watt amp (from their 1988 "880" just
    above midi type stack). I think that these speakers deserve a lot
    better and I'm willing to put 3/400 quid behind it. Anybody know any
    good Pioneer amps in that range ( I have a buddy who's a Pioneer
    dealer) that will let me get my full 100W's out of these guys with
    decent sound reproduction. I know this must be stomach churning for
    some of the real Audiophiles out there, but I do like to hear things at
    Max Volume (as quoted from the back of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders
    from Mars).
    
    Any info greatly appreciated,
    Joe. 
      
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418.1Ouch....BAHTAT::SALLITTDave @LZO 845-2374Tue May 11 1993 20:4143
    Good grief. The 80 watts you have now, with 89db/w @1m speakers, should
    be more than adequate, unless you listen in an aicraft hangar, or plan
    to use them for raveups in a 40 acre field. Your note sounds like you
    have some basic misconceptions about power rating and loudness.
    
    Before the lecture ;-).......
    
    The speakers sound like they're a Wilmslow Audio kit. Wilmslow's number
    is in this conference somewhere - they're nice helpful people.
    
    Going up to 100 watts only gives you 1.25 times the power. Sound
    pressure diminishes by the inverse square law, so 1.25 times the power
    will only give you the-square-root-of-1.25 times the sound pressure at
    the same distance; I don't know what that works out at, just over 1
    somewhere. So if you only select your amp on its ability to deliver 100
    watts, you may as well save your money and buy CDs or LPs with it.
    
    In practice, a good modern 40-50 watt amp like the Pioneer A400 will
    probably show your old Technics the way home. That should fit in your
    budget, along with a few home grown models. Don't be deceived by RMS
    power ratings, it's the amp's ability to deliver rapid surges across
    the frequency band into a real loudspeaker, whose impedance can range
    from 4 to 16 ohms on vaerage depending on frequency, in response to a
    real music signal that counts. RMS power has very little relationship to
    that, it is more down to the amp's ability to reproduce dynamic range,
    and that is in turn dependent on the same capability of the source of
    the signal.
    
    Also, don't be deceived into thinking that 100 watt speakers need a 100
    watt amp, it's the sensitivity that counts. Your speakers will sound
    twice as loud as a pair with a sensitivity of 86db/w @1m, for any given
    power input, or half as loud as a 92db/w @1m. A pair of 50 watt
    speakers can take three or four times that in power surges, provided
    they are fed with a clean signal; on the other hand, a 100 watt pair
    will go into self-destruct mode with a 30 watt amp cranked up so high
    it clips and distorts the signal.
    
    And the quality of the signal ultimately depends on the quality of your
    sources, especially if you plan to run at full power.
    
    End of lecture....
    
    Dave
418.2Technics guilty of delusions of grandeur?ISEQ::JSMYTHWed May 12 1993 10:3840
Dave,

Thanks for the lecture, all constructive criticism gladly accepted. Well I went
back and checked the spec sheet I got with the speakers and they are definitely 
made by Kef in Maidstone. However I erred on some of the ratings I quoted off
the top of my head. These are 86db/w @1m units and 8 ohm nom. impedance. 

Now I do understand the 3db factor and the inverse square law factor, as I am
an engineer, although I've spent the last few years writing software instead of
designing great loudspeaker systems like I should have been. However I'm
perplexed at the way equipment manufacturer's rate their amplifiers. As you
point out in .1 the difference in amplifiers actual power handling abilities and
their quoted RMS abilities can be startling due to things like poor transient
response and "holes" in their power output spectrum. However I would like to
bring up the point in case of Technics.

As described I have a Technics 80W amp, however I've heard 50W amps perform as
well as them, probably for all the reasons outlined in .1. Now, I have a
friend who had a Sony 40W amp and replaced it with a Technics 70W amp and he
nearly cried when he pumped up the volume. It was nowhere near as "powerful" as
the Sony. This may sound ludricous but do Technics calculate RMS values
differently to the rest of the engineering community or are these just
aberrations on a normally good record.

Back to my Kef/Technics setup: The volume on the amp is displayed in digital
form in dB from -70 to 0. Average CD's played off an old but excellent Ferguson
CD player sound clean up to -14. After that the sound quality goes to hell.
Surely the THD exponential point can't be hit so far from Max volume. Could the
amp be clipping so early? Even though the volume ain't stupendous at this point
I avoid going above this point to avoid tweeter blowout from distortion.

So as you can see I have serious misgivings about Technics, so does anybody
want to defend them.

Joe. 

PS any body listened to the Pioneer A68(?)6 amp. Any opinions vis a vis the
above?  
    
                                                                    
418.3Do some work before you spend.....BAHTAT::SALLITTDave @LZO 845-2374Wed May 12 1993 16:0531
    Joe,
    
    86db isn't particularly sensitive, but you should still get respectable
    volumes in an average room with a *good* 80 watts amplifier.
    
    Regarding the Sony vs. Technics issue you mention, manufacturers
    measure RMS power into 8 ohms, usually at a fixed frequency. How two
    different amplifiers work with a real music signal into a real load
    depends on the amp power supply's ability to deliver current, and on
    the supply's bandwidth and output impedance as seen by the output
    stage. Give an amplifier an easy, simple signal and a "budget speaker"
    load, and it will sound OK; however, a demanding signal, even with easy
    speakers, will sort the men out from the boys.
    
    Regarding your distortion, I suggest you check the speaker drivers for
    damage, that they're screwed in tight, and that there are no loose
    connections or dry joints. Also, cabinet air-tightness can affect
    volume and dynamics - hence perceived volume; you can check this by
    gently pushing the cones of the bass units in - you should feel lots of
    resistance and they should spring back immediately you take your hand
    away. If they're reflex speakers you will need to temporarily block the
    port, of course. Then make sure you have the speakers on appropriate
    stands and that they are postioned correctly. If you still have
    distortion at the level you suggest, try a different amp and source.
    Remember that high sound pressure levels can reveal all sorts of ills
    in a system that are inaudible at "normal" listening levels, as can
    more revealing speakers than you're used to.
    
    Good fun this hobby, ain't it?
    
    Dave