Conference hips::uk_audioo

    Not really a reply, more an observation on what I would do when friends
    came round to listen (To music - not Hi-Fi)
           
    	When I had my Naim amps (32/SNAPS/160) I would often just play
    parts of tracks (Not even parts of albums) whilst makeing comments like
    ``You've just got to listen to this''.
    
    	Now I've go a (fairly old) Linn setup (LK-1/2) I listen too the
    whole track/side/album and never make any comments...
    
    	Don't go me wrong Naim make very good amps (and speakers for that
    matter) its just that I listen to the music more and the Hi-Fi less
    these days.
    
    	As for the comment about speaker X being designed to work with amp
    Y - take this with a pinch of salt. Unless the speaker has some wierd
    impedence (Linn SARA) or is a very reactive load (Quad ESL) then most
    quality� amps should work just fine - though they will sound different.
    
    	Recently Linn have been quoted as saying that the new (improved)
    Kaber is only drivable by their amps - this kind of cr*p gives quality
    Hi-Fi a bad naim.
    
    	Rik
    
    �There are of course only two quality amps Ion and Linn :-) :-) :-)

	when i bought my linn stuff i listened to some naim too.
	can't remember what, but much more expensive than the linn.

	the naim was wonderfully clear, much more so than the linn.
	but i felt that i would quickly get tired of listening to it.
	the sound was too clinical...i wanted something a bit warmer
	- so i got the linn.

	i suspect that the clinical-ness sounded worse 'cos i usually
	listen to CD. 

	i s'pose it all depends on what you feel comfortable with.

	jack 

	

Well, I've got a Linn front-end and Naim amps (72/HICAP/140).

While I concede some points on musicality, I love the clarity of the Naim
gear which would be at least the equal of some much more expensive gear
(VTL et. al.) that I have heard. I remain to be firmly convinced on the
Linn amps. The other thing I am a little uncomfortable about with them
is the (excessive) number of revisions they seem to go through. I contrast
this with Naim who have kept basically the same design for ages...

Still, I am firmly convinced of the value of the Linn front-end over and above
the Naim mods...

Interesting point though about Naim giving you Hi-Fi and Linn music. Maybe some
truth to that.

Yoous pays your money....

All the Hi-Fi events seem to be happening in one week this year. Last
night, the Sound Gallery had a Naim evening at Bisham Abbey, which I
attended.

The first demonstration was of the upgrade path from a low-end Naim
amplification setup through the various stages towards nirvana. They
started off with a system consisting of:

                LP12, Ekos, Troika  [does that make sense ? I might have
                                     misremembered].
                NAIM CDS
                NAC62/NAP90
                NAIM SBLs

They played a weird jazz guitar track on the LP12, and a Mary Black track
on the CDS with each further combination, which were:

                NAC72/NAP90
                NAC72/NAP140
                HICAP/NAC72/NAP140
                HICAP/NAC72/NAP250
                
The most amazing difference was between the first combination with the
NAC62 and the second with the 72. It was almost like they were playing 
completely different pieces of music. If you had 1000 pounds to spend,
the 72/90 combination would blow away the 62/140. 

After that, things improved more slowly, but there was an audible
improvement each time, even in a room with about 40 people. In general,
doing things to the preamps made the sound more musically informative, and
the bigger power amps improved the general presentation. I suppose this is
what you'd expect, but it was the first time I'd experienced it. They put
the 62/90 back on afterwards, and it was a real come-down.

Naim's MD then gave a little talk about the philosophy behind the CD
player and the DBL loudspeakers. He managed to slag off almost every
other manufacturer while doing so, either by name or by implication. I
don't find this sort of arrogance very appealing.

The second demonstration was of Naim's top system:

                LP12, ARO, Troika
                CDS     
                NAC52
                Active crossover
                6 NAP135s
                NAIM DBLs

all in all, about 25 grands worth. They played about 10 tracks on this,
and only one was on the LP12...

I was very unimpressed with this system, mainly because the DBLs are
*terrible*.  They sound [and look] more like Public Address than domestic
Hi-Fi. The imaging was poor to nonexistent, and various frequencies just
seemed to be horribly smeared and distorted. I'm sure that the system
would have been superb with some other speakers.

An interesting evening though.

	Who would like to give me some idea of the prices of the 
	various Naim components ?

	Also, they sell an integrated amplifier, the Nait.  Has 
	anyone had any experience of that ?

	I'm replacing/upgrading.  Looking at a CD only system and
	wondered if second hand Naim products were worthwhile.

	Iain.

    Naim did / do two Nait amps the Naim Nait and Nait 2. The Nait use to
    be about �200 the Nait 2 a lot more (300 ?)
    
    I've no idea about the prices of second hand Naim amps but Naim� _use_
    to have a police of buying back second hand amps for the purchase price
    less VAT when upgrading amps - so check your local dealer.
    
    Naim to a CD specific input card which you can use in their per-amps
    (Not the Nait) instead of the MM/MC input this improved the sound of CD
    greatly.
    
    My brother has an old 12S/160 which he was mumbling about selling for
    about �125 I think - SEND/Author if you want me to check this out with
    him. (He could probably get the 12s (=MC input) converted to CD but I'm
    not sure).
    
    	Rik
    
    �Well Naim dealers had it ``forced'' on them.

    
    I had a Naim demo a couple of weeks ago. From memory, the current
    prices for the "cheaper" bits are:
    
    Nait II	 ~420
    62 preamp	 ~450
    72 preamp	 ~600
    90 power amp ~400
    140 "     "  ~600
    
    The dealer told me that Naim tend to silently upgrade their products,
    so last year's 140 may not be as good as this year's for example.
    
    Trevor

    
    ...and from a demo, to a purchase.
    
    A couple of weeks ago, my old Cyrus I was displaced in favour of a Naim
    72/140 combo. 
    
    When I had these amps for a home trial, I was initially quite confused
    about what they were doing. Lots of tracks sounded different (and
    better), but they all sounded different in different ways ! After a
    while, I decided that they were mainly doing two things better than the
    Cyrus:
    
    - Dynamics. The Cyrus appeared to compress the dynamics (i.e. the
    difference between quiet bits and loud bits). The Naims didn't. This 
    made some tracks sound almost unrecognisable. This effect is probably
    more noticeable at the fairly high volume levels I enjoy.
    
    - The sound in general was fuller, and individual instruments had more
    depth. The bass is considerably deeper and tighter, which is a boon
    with the ES-11s, which are a bit loose at the bottom of their range.
    
    The '72 I've got is the very latest version, where the CD input now has
    a phono connector instead of BNCs. It also comes without the general
    purpose high-level board on this input, although it can be fitted if
    required.
    
    I can't decide whether to sell the Cyrus, or keep it as a headphone
    amp, but at the moment I don't have any need for headphones at home.
    Anyone want an original Cyrus I ?
    
    Trevor

    
    No, I don't have a HICAP. How much difference does one make ? From
    seeing the pictures of the innards of one, they seem to be *very* poor
    material value for money. Mind you, you might say the same about a lot
    of Naim stuff, but this seems to be particularly so for the HICAP.
    
    I mean how much can a case, a few wires, transformer, two big caps, a
    bridge rectifier and a couple of regulators cost them to produce ?
    
    Trevor

    My understanding is that the HICAP simply seperates the supply to the
    phono stage from the line stage supply, whereas when powered via the
    NAP90 or 140 both circuits get the same supply.
    
    If you are not using the phono input, I doubt the HICAP will do a lot
    for the sound.
    
    Dave

I found the difference meant greater resolution and detail, and the 140 didn't
get "lost" when the music is loud.

    I agree with .12.
    
    This is the same as my old 32 / 160. Although the 160 did have a
    separate PSU for the 32� when I used it with the SNAPS� it (the 160)
    could drive 'briks - otherwise it just curled up its feet.
    
    Along a similar vein ...
    
    	A lot has been said in this conference re the new Linn Keltic
    speaker. This is basicaly an active only isobarik Kaber. I was chating
    to someone who should know as said that people that had heard it had
    been less than inpressed. He wasn't surprised and said that inorder to
    sound any where near their best they would require 3 x Klout amps and
    only really got into the swing of things when the 4th Klout was added.
    
    	He went as far as to say that Kelic's driven by 3x(280+Spark) would
    be confortably beaten by passive 'briks - the Keltic's really are an
    absolute pig to drive.
    
    	Talking of the new Klout this is rather more that a 280+Spark
    in-a-box it is a whole new amp. Though it has similar spec's to the
    280+Spark it would be like compairing a Naim 160 .v. 2x135's !!!
    
    	Rik
    
    �This was an old 32 not the twin-rail'able 32S
    
    �Remember them, cme to think of it does anyone remember the old NAPS ?

    
    re: .11
    
    The HICAP does supply all the preamp power, rather than just the phono
    stage. I may try and find a 2nd hand one next time I get upgrade fever.
    And of course, you can't get a 250 if you haven't got a HICAP...
    
    This brings up another piece of Naim weirdness. If you do have a HICAP,
    the signal from the preamp goes to the power amp via the HICAP, so
    there is an extra set of plugs'n'sockets introduced, not to mention the
    proximity of the signal to the actual power supply. From looking in the
    manual, the situation gets even worse for an active system, where the
    signal goes through *2* HICAPs before it gets to the crossover.
    
    If the interconnect cables worked differently, this wouldn't have to
    happen - I wonder why they do it like this ?
    
    Trevor

Yes, I've wondered about that as well. Especially as you can hook up the preamp
direct to the power amp without going through the HICAP. However my listening 
tests soon told me which was the better (and non-intuitive) way.

Something to do with a common earth system I think.

    I see NAIM are bringing out a "Budget" version of the CDS called the
    CDI. It's a single box version, the main difference being that it has a
    all the power supplies in the same box as the transport and DAC, and I
    expect a slightly lower spec.
    
    Price is a snip at �1600 approx
    

    I believe the signal interconnect goes via the HICAP so that the supply
    is referenced to signal ground, as opposed to the house earth.
    
    Re earlier comments, yes the HICAP does power both the phono and line
    stages. However, the main improvement will be heard when using the
    phono inputs; because the input signal level is lower, it more likely
    to benefit by being isolated from the sags and surges on the dc lines,
    and high earth currents, of the power derived from a NAP90/140.
    
    A HICAP or SNAPS will have no effect whatsoever on the power amp's
    ability to drive certain speakers. Any improvement heard will be due to
    preamp being given a better chance to perform to spec.
    
    If a NAC72 user only listens to line inputs, a careful audition is
    essential before forking out the not-inconsiderable bunce required to
    fund a HICAP. If yo are a record-playing NAC72 user, a HICAP is
    essential - once the record player is up to snuff, of course.
    
    Dave

re .-1

Dave, that has been my experience with the 72/HICAP. With the LP12 the HICAP
made enough of a difference to justify the cost. It made more sense to me
than to go for a bigger power amp.

-Dave.

    
    I visited the Sound Gallery while I was in High Wycombe today, and
    found out a bit more about the NAC82 preamp. Someone in an earlier
    topic mentioned that it is basically a one box version of the NAC52.
    However, contrary to what was said in the earlier note, it does need a
    HICAP - in fact you can even use two of them.
    
    It is going to go for about 1800 quid. The S.G. think it is a good
    product, and  already have thirteen orders. There must be a lot of
    people who couldn't justify the 4500 for a '52, but can justify 1800.
    
    One other piece of information. Apparently, Linn are on a four day
    week.
    
    Trevor

    
    I ended up buying a HICAP, not for an immediate improvement in sound
    quality, but as part of an ongoing investment program towards getting a
    NAP250. I think the HICAP makes some kind of difference to the sound,
    but I'm not sure yet.
    
    When I got it home and plugged it in, the left hand channel didn't
    work. I suspected the new 5-pin DIN cable, so came into work to check
    it out, and was surprised to find it was OK. So, I took the HICAP out
    of its case, and examined the connectors very carefully. I found that
    the left hand channel and the +24V supply output were accidentally
    connected together with a bit of messy soldering !! After I removed the
    excess solder, it started working properly.
    
    I contacted the dealer this morning, who rang Naim. It turns out that
    in the factory, they only test the HICAP for the correct supply output
    - they don't check whether all the internal connections are right,
    although they are now thinking about doing so (closing stable door
    after horse).  They also say it won't have damaged the pre-amp or
    power-amp at all.
    
    Trevor

    B**locks,
    
    	Naim have been known to solder these thing wrongly before. When I
    used to play at Hi-Fi we connected up a 32/SNAPS/NAB300�. This (the SNAPS)
    was incorrectly wired to put 24V DC into one of the power amp inputs.
    The Kans which we were testing the system with were vapourised...
                  
    		Rik
    
    PS. Mr LP12 ( :-) ) Did you receive my mail on Kairn/Karik/Numerik ?
    
    �This is the broadcast version of the NAP250 which came in a 19" rack
    mount and has a collection on fans at the rear. It didn't sound (quite)
    as good as the 250 but was amazingly powerful. (Would eat a 135 system
    for breakfast)

For all you Naim fans in Basingstoke/ environs --

Audio T now have a Naim dealership. I went in this lunchtime, and they 
were just unpacking the new deliveries and setting them up.

Now I can get a Linn/Naim demo close to home !!

Dave