Conference hips::uk_audioo

I take it you don't still have the Revox, Quad and Linn gear.

I am biassed against CD's. However, my bias is based on several
good demonstrations of how vinyl is superior to CD, the most
recent of which was yesterday at the Bristol HiFi show, in which
a considered-to-be-one-of-the-best �1200 Denon CD player was
pitted against the �450 Linn Axis turntable. The CD lost by a
staggering margin. It appeared that the other 60 or so people in
the room were also in agreement.

If you want to be technologically 'with-it', want music to hear
and don't mind paying �12 or so for a CD, get a CD player. Some
of the �200-�300 models get good reviews.

If you don't mind being regarded as a tecnophobe Luddite, want
to *listen* to music, be involved in it and be moved by it, but
don't mind putting up with the pops and hiss, stick with vinyl.
As far as surface noise is concerned, with a decent hifi you'll
find that your involvement in the music far outweighs the surface
noise. Also, the better the turntable, arm and cartridge set-up
the better the tracking capability and the less noisy records
sound.

If you get a decent turntable, you'll get the additional benefit
of being able to play and *enjoy* all your old records: if you
buy a CD player and the type of low budget turntable that you
get in (particularly the cheaper) midi systems, you may find that
you don't actually enjoy any of it!

It's perhaps worth mentioning that a lot of people are prepared
to spend easily �250 on a CD player. How many people are prepared
to spend that much on a record deck? The irony is that a �250
turntable should sound easily better than the CD player!

I can only really argue the case for non-classical music. That's
not to say that it doesn't apply for classical, it's just that
I'm not qualified. It has to be said that classical music
listeners (or should that be 'hearers') seem to like CD's. But
it's also been said that classical music fans like the 'digital
silences' more than they like the actual music!

I don't know too much about DAT, I've got an open mind about it,
I'm waiting for a year or so until more are available and they've
come down in price. I still wouldn't expect to use it for anything
other than taping stuff to listen to in the car, tho'. Similarly
that's all I use cassettes for, in this case most of the Japanese
ones are fairly reasonable, I believe the Denon ones are good
for the money.

So without knowing what your budget is, I'd suggest the following:

Turntable:

Revolver, Rega Planar 2 or 3, Linn Axis, Roksan Xerxes, Pink Triangle
or the Linn LP12.

Arms:

Rega RB250, Rega RB300, Linn Basik, Linn Ittok, Linn Ekos.

Cartridges:

Linn K9, Linn K18, Linn Troika.

Amplifier:

Exposure X (integrated amp - the best amp �400 can buy)
Exposure VII/VIII
Linn LK1 and LK2
Naim

Speakers:
Any made by Ruark,
Any made by Linn
Gale 301
Musical Fidelity MC2

I can't list them all obviously due to lack of space (and my memory).

By far the best advice I can give you is to go to a dealer and
ask him. Don't go to a dealer which is part of a chain e.g.
Lasky's. Go to an independent Hi-Fi specialist (as opposed a shop
that sells lots of stereos). One who will be prepared to spend
time with you, will listen to your requirements and will demonstrate
equipment at your own pace and give you pointers to the equipment
that is right for *you*. Don't buy anything that you haven't heard,
and if the shop's got a comparator to switch between units, or
a vast bank of speakers with a number on each pair, walk out.

Good luck,
Steve.

P.S. I can personally recommend Farnborough Hi-Fi.

BTW out of curiosity, where are you moving too that the TV reception
is so bad? I'd hazard a guess that if it's on the UK mainland it's
in North Wales, the Pennines, Central or North Scotland, or Hartley
Wintney.

Steve.

    I agree almost entirely with .1 - except that I'm biased towards CD! 
    So I figured our point of view should be added too!!  .1s choices of
    amps, speakers look good to me - though if you can afford it the
    Meridian Amp system sounds interesting...
    
    As a confirmed classical enthusiast these days (though I still like
    Pop/rock/Jazz/meditation, etc) I prefer CD because of it's phenominal
    range and clarity  -  though as .1 says the silences really are silent
    - who wants to listen to a very gentle piano passage with the north sea
    bashing against the rocks in the background?  I agree that many CDs are
    not perfect - but then what record player is?
    
    CDs to at least listen to (again with all the good advice .1 gave) are 
    the Cambridge CD2, CD1, the Accuphase, the Meridian (but grotesquely
    expensive) and some of the Marantz separate D/A player combinations.
    
    Again like .1 I'm not convinced about DAT players.  You've said you
    were thinking of getting 2 of them!! This means your budget goes to
    �2000 - which could buy you any of the above CD players - or any of the
    more esoteric record/arm/stylus combinations.  The cost of blank DAT
    tapes at present is more than a CD, so what would you put on them? 
    Much better to buy the source - LP or CD.
    
    I'll second .1s recommendation of Farnborough HiFi - others around this
    area are Reading HiFi (who have moved - I've not yet been to their new
    shop) Hampshire Audio in Chandler's Ford, Sound Galery in High Wycombe.
    
    Have fun shopping,
    
    Ian
    

    re both: thanks, it's food for thought.
    
    I'm moving to a spot in the Thames valley (literally - the garden
    goes down to the river). The neighbours showed me the results on
    their TV and it's bad. Any enough of the boob-tube.
    
    I sold the stuff I had in the States because it simply wasn't getting
    used. I had two Revox B77 decks that I had been using for recording
    live music. I'm interested in a wide spectrum but specifically I
    am a devotee of "classical [american] country" music - ie the
    traditional country folk idiom. However I prefer to listen to the
    music rather than the technology. One thing that concerns me about
    CD -at-the-moment- is the dearth of software in the areas of my
    interest (most of this stuff is on vinyl only on almost unknown
    import labels, produced in various barns in West Virginia, Kentucky,
    and Tennessee)                                             
    
    I also have an extensive collection of cassettes (I used to carry
    a Nakamichi DuoTracer portable casette recorder to clubs and other
    venues where I couldn't set up the Revoxes).
    
    My suspicion of DAT is that though sound quality will be high it
    won't be possible to take a pair of scissors to the tape for editting
    with the ease I could do it to open reel tape recorded at 15ips.
    
    If I buy another turntable of HiFi quality it will be a Linn (sorry
    I'm pre-sold on that one), but I have no pre-defined choice of arm. 
    Historical prejudice would suggest either Quad, Linn or Naim for the 
    amp. Speakers aren't important because I prefer to listen on
    headphones (I kept my AKG and Stax electrostatics - all that survived 
    the fire-sale (together with an ancient pair of Bowers & Wilkins
    DM1 bookshelf loudspeakers that I use for listening to radio broadcasts
    or when I am working and need a musical background)).
    
    I'd also like some opinions on a "state of the art" tuner. I liked
    my old Revox tuner, but even then it was a close choice with other
    makes (back then Yamaha was the obvious competitor).
    
    I'm not chasing a technological chimera, it will take a lot of thought
    to abandon the old software (I have over a thousand LPs, and about
    2000 casettes, most of them live recordings), and it will take a
    very impressive and clear cut advantage to move to digital sound
    and abandon the analogue systems to the world of lo-fi. Anyway,
    please continue to add opinions, it is helpful (and meanwhile I
    am reading backwards through this file and the US based audio
    conference).
    
    /. Ian .\

    re -.several, hello Colonel, welcome back!
    
    I must reiterate earlier advice to seek out a good dealer. There's 
    no easy way out, you'll have to do some work yourself, listening to 
    options with your own records over a long period of time until you have a
    system you enjoy, and finding a dealer who will lead you through
    this process without implanting ideas of his/her own isn't easy.
    That Linn dealers are like this isn't a self-evident truth, but
    they must have a single-speaker dem room, and their own money in
    the business, to get the franchise. Another dealer recommendation I can
    add is the Sound Organisation in London; I use their York shop and
    their attitude can be summed up as "the music comes first". With
    your record collection and your tastes, you'll certainly get
    sympathetic response there. Don't exclude non-Linn dealers, but
    be careful; like Steve says, avoid chain stores, anyone who sells
    sealed boxes or uses a comparator - they generally sell hifi the
    same way Tesco sells groceries, which is OK if you only want the
    pleasure to last a week.
    
    My own view on choosing hifi - I make no apologies if I sound pompous
    -  is that a hifi system should be chosen like a musical instrument,
    i.e with care and pleasure and the expectation that you will get
    years of joy from it. If you were a musician choosing an instrument
    then your experience suggests you should go for a high quality one
    now, rather than one you may "grow out of". If you are sold on Linn
    (join the club) then you should consider the Ekos arm and Troika
    cartridge - both from Linn - on a Sondek; this will set you back over 
    �2000, however, but even if this seems extreme you owe it to yourself 
    to hear them, whole being greater than the sum of its parts. My own
    experience of these products, on a wide range of music, was that
    I either had to go into voluntary deprivation or forget I ever heard
    them - I chose the first. It costs more than many consider appropriate
    for a complete system, but the Sondek/Troika/Ekos combination communicates
    music in a way that can't be measured with money; on that basis,
    it's cheap.... Like I say, if you can afford to consider this combo,
    you *must* hear it.
    
    As for electronics, a good integrated set up with the above front
    end will give more access to more music from more records (irrespective
    of their condition or recording quality) than, say, a Linn with an
    Ittok, K9, and any pre/power combo you care to name, even though
    costs may be similar. A good dealer will demonstrate this.
    
    Likewise speakers, these are at the mercy of the signal that's fed
    into them. Again a good dealer will guide you here.

    Good supports for all equipment are essential if you are to realise
    the benefits, the same applies to power connections and speaker
    cable. A �750 system properly installed and connected will outperform a
    �2000 system thrown into a room, using cheap extension boxes and
    speaker cable. Once again (sorry if this is tedious) a *good* dealer
    will at least advise on this, if not attend to it for you in your
    home.
    
    As for a state-of-the-art tuner, Revox make a very sophisticated
    model that includes RDS, costs around a grand, I think. Naim do
    a very good tuner (the NAT01), also about a grand, which doesn't
    have the perceived sophistication of the Revox but whose performance
    in RF categories and sound quality is reputedly better; Naim also
    do the NAT101, about �700, FM only, still very good sound. My use
    of radio doesn't justify these beasts, couldn't afford it anyway,
    so I use a NAD4225, which in the below-�200 category is the one to
    beat. None of the above exotica will work at their best without
    a good roof-mounted antenna; mine cost half the price of the tuner
    and is worth every penny.
    
    As for tape, Revox still make reel-to-reels, including a successor
    to the B77, which I think is their cheapest; they start in 4 figures
    and go up from there! For convenience, though, cassette is hard
    to beat, and performance from such as the NAD6330(~�600) and Denon 
    DRM24HX-Pro (~�300) are close to reel-to-reel for most domestic
    purposes. DAT is good but expensive, and as you suggest probably 
    difficult to edit, unless you had 2 and used the subcodes, etc.
    to dub from deck to deck. Tape costs for DAT are high, though.

    You don't seem to have much use for a CD player. Certainly catalogues
    are limited, but they're getting better. CD sound has its benefits,
    although they're not important enough to me to justify buying a
    player, especially with CD costs so high. LP should last at least
    another 10-15 years (if it disappears at all, which I doubt), and
    in spite of mythology to the contrary, they do not self-destruct
    after x years; LPs bought now should still be good in 20 years time
    if cared for, and CDs aren't exempt tender loving care if they're
    to last; with the rate of change of technology we have, the
    replacement for CD should be here by 20 years hence, some form of
    data RAM storage, perhaps. This may go some way to explaining the
    commercial pressures to buy CD; losing a sale to LP loses 4 times
    the profit than if that LP was taped, and with CD almost a mature
    product the industry is pushing hard to make as much as they can,
    especially since CD's successor, if it is some form of RAM, will be
    even easier to pirate and more difficult to control copyrights with
    - which is bad news for business. The time to buy a CD player will
    be when everyone is ditching CD for the new stuff, and all those
    used little silver discs will appear on market stalls........ :-)

    Have fun choosing.

    Dave

         
         Re chain store Hi-Fi. I remember when what is now Lasky's
         was a single shop called Hardman Radio run by a knowledgeable
         Norwegian and mainly selling components for the
         do-it-yourself Hi-Fi fans. They sold me my first Hi-Fi
         system (a Leak) back in my student days, and also as it
         happens the Quad, Revox and Linn-Sondek gear (just before
         they lost their Linn franchise), back then of course he'd
         let me take potential purchases home for a week to try
         out at home. However when the "knowledgeable chap" became 
         the corporate MD and lost interest (and moved from Liverpool 
         to London), I quit using the store.
         
         As for the rest, things are crystallising fairly fast,
         at least to a fairly compact short list to go and hear.
         I certainly have no intention of buying anything without
         fairly extensive listening test. I still prefer to listen
         to music rather than HiFi.
         
         The short list now looks like this:
         
         turntable (if I buy one) Linn Sonndek/Ekos/Troika (yes
         	- I heard that set up in the states, and that is my 
         	benchmark for comparisons) - a CD that isn't
         	perceptibly better at playing un-amplified acoustic 
         	folk instrumentals is dead in the water.
         
         Amp. Linn or Naim (but I'll audition the Quad's for old
         	times sake).
         
         Tuner. Revox or Naim (OK, if I buy a Naim amp I'll get
         	a Naim tuner - my wife likes things to match :-)
                
         Cassette deck: I fancy the Revox, but things are getting
         	vaguer (at least it would match a Revox tuner if
         	I buy a Linn amp).
                                   
         Monitor tape. Well I won't be buying two Revox reel-reel
         	decks, at least not yet. If I go for live recording
         	equipment I'll probably get a professional portable 
         	(Nagra is I guess still the best - are Uher still
         	on the market?)
                                          
         Anyway, right now the important thing isn't to go out
         and blow �10,000 I haven't got, but to set up a sensible
         long term plan.
                  
         Funnily enough it doesn't sound like the names have changed
         much in the time I've been away :-)
         
         /. Ian .\
                
         Footnote anecdote about Nagra tape decks. Several years
         ago Studio Sound magazine ran a test on the then new stereo
         model. They included the following testimonial to the
         ruggedness of the machine.
         
         During testing one of the engineers spilled a full mug
         of coffee over the machine (including the head assembly). 
         They took the batteries out, washed the coffee off under 
         a convenient tap, dried it with a hair drier, put the
         batteries back in and continued with the lab tests....
         
         Try that with a Sony walkman :-)

    In the US conference there are many assertions that recordable
    CD's will appear inside 1 year. I suggest you check that out
    before deciding on buying a DAT m/c.
    Calvin
    
    

    Ciao Ian! I am the owner of your old Linn. It is still healthy and
    going strong in Italy. I bought their (insert funny name) oscillator
    power supply when in the U.S. and it works fine on both sides of
    the water. Ciao and thanks for the Linn.. Ed
    

    
    glad to hear it...
    
    /. Ian .\

	I've just found this Conference!  I did a dir/tit=revox and came up
    with this Topic.
    
    	This is a very old Topic I agree, but what did you buy in the end,
    Phil?  If you are still with us, of course!
    
    	Regarding cassette decks, the Revox B215 is designed for a life of
    20 years, compare that with the Japanese products design life.
    
    	The Revox Open Reel deck is still the B77, but in Mark II form -
    has been ever since I bought mine in 1981.  It is available in
    (I believe) 26 versions of different speed, tape head configuration and EQ. 
    The slightly upmarket version (well, professional version) is the PR99, 
    which uses the same mechanics.
    
    	As far as quality apart from cost, I believe that the Revox Tuner
    is still the one to beat.
    
    	The Record Companies killed DAT, but it is still available.  It is
    more or less a CD laid out along a piece of tape.
    
    				Malcolm