Conference hips::uk_audioo

I'll start the ball rolling with my stuff:

Currently, I'm in the middle of upgrading my system so I'll put
in another note when it's finished (or at least reasonably stable).

The record deck is sitting on an IKEA LACK coffee table, made by a
Swedish furniture manufacturer (IKEA) who has recently arrived in the UK.
It's made of melamine coated hardboard with plastic legs. Two dealers have
now told me that it's the best support for Linn Sondeks, as used by Linn
themselves. You have to doctor it first by cutting out the bottom of the
top (if you see what I mean) and extracting the honey comb of cardboard.
What's more it only costs �18 which must be less than the rather more
fancy turntable tables.

The theory as I understand it which applies to all HiFi components is
'light, but rigid': (light = low mass and low stored acoustic energy,
and rigid, well I don't know about this one).

When the deck first arrived I didn't have any decent sort of stand so I
put in on a record cabinet made of solid wood (about 30 years old, no
chipboard in sight). It sounded rough. The dealer tried to alleviate
matters somewhat, decoupling the deck from the cabinet by putting an
empty cassette box under each foot. It had quite a marked affect on the
sound, controlling the bass a lot more.

I've got a borrowed preamp and amp at the moment which are both sitting
on my carpet. My speakers are sitting on a borrowed pair of Musical
Fidelity MC2 stands with spikes, which sound a lot better than my
pair of Activity Play stands with not a spike in sight. I recently
borrowed some Linn Sara stands and they sounded better still.

The rest of the kit is:
				CD
				old amp.
				tuner
				cassette
				video

sitting like that, in a stack, on a somewhat flimsy record cabinet,
which keeps making strange creaking noises.

Currently I'm looking for some decent furniture for my living room, so
it'll all be changing soon. My mate will be bringing round his 'proper'
turntable table to give that a try. I have to admit that I'm pretty
sceptical about amps and things (electronic gismos without moving parts)
needing any sort of special stand at all, excepting that they should be
allowed to dissipate as much heat as they need.

Who's next then?

    At the moment all my equipment (amps, tuner, cassette and CDs) is
    sitting in an old Hygena type cabinet.  What I would like to know
    is if anyone knows of a decent furniture manufacturer who can build
    suitable cabinets for anyone who has 4 boxes worth of amp, plus
    all the other stuff.   I would ideally like sliding drawers for
    CDs and cassettes to be built into the same unit - and would like
    it to be made of something substantial (provided it doesn't cost
    the earth!) as even Cds need a good solid, static base.  This is
    unusual as I don't have a record deck anymore and so don't need
    to be quite so paranoic about record player tables!  
    
    Any ideas anyone?
    
    Ian

    re .2.....
    
    There's a firm in Harrogate (whose name escapes me but they advertise
    in HFN/RR occasionally) who make the sort of thing you're looking
    for, either off the shelf or to your own requirements. Everything's
    made by hand so it's fairly costly, but not disastrously so; they
    tend to specialise in reproduction style, which is why I passed
    them by. But if you like the idea of everything in one box then they
    may be able to do something to your own design.
    
    Sonically, this sort of thing is a non-starter; even a CD player
    needs a light, rigid support to work at its best. Acoustic feedback,
    either air or structure-borne, can cause the laser to mis-track,
    causing the beast's error correction to work overtime; in extreme
    cases, (or standard cases in cheap players with mediocre error
    correction), the player redirects the servo system to move the
    laser/slow the disc, in order to have another go. In either case, it 
    saps the player's power supply thus distorting the sound. The
    higher-fi CD players have seperate supplies for the audio stages and 
    are less affected, but not unaffected. High mass may appear ideal,
    but in practice it acts like a capacitor to vibrational energy,
    rather than a resistor, and dissipates it slowly into the record
    player, smearing dynamics and obscuring detail; with CD's the effects
    are as described. If domestic harmony dictates a "massy" structure,
    then using a simple subtable as described later can mitigate the
    bad bits to most listeners' satisfaction.
    
    
    re .0/.1.....
    
    I have a Sound Organisation table for my Linn; the rest sits on
    the expandable Sound Organisation Staktable, apart from the power
    amp which sits on the floor, on some 9"x5" medite supported by 4
    cup hooks! Speakers are on Kan stands. The electronics used to sit
    on a Schrieber unit which housed records also; the sound improved
    when moving them to one of those metal trolley things from Habitat,
    but putting them on the Staktable made the sound seem even better,
    more sort of "right", or natural. While I can readily explain why
    a turntable or CD player will perform better when isolated from
    acoustic feedback, I am less certain about why solid-state electronics
    exhibit the same effect, albeit to a lesser degree; my ears/records
    tell me it does, and that's good enough for me.
    
    Firm speaker location via light rigid supports is also required
    for best performance.
    
    For those sceptics who are reluctant to lash out, get a piece of
    3/8" plywood or veneered chipboard just slightly bigger than your
    CD player or turntable, and some of those screw-in drawer handles
    or cup hooks. Use the handles/cuphooks as feet for the board, and
    sit your source on it; if you're not surprised by the improvement,
    all you've spent is the equivalent of a couple of pints, but I'd
    bet you will be. For some reason some players (record or CD) sound
    better with 3 feet, others with 4; I haven't a clue why, just try
    it. You can then continue the experiment with electronics.
    
    Why not put your findings in here?
    
    Dave

    My kit sits upon cliffhanger shelving, to good effect.
    
    For the uninitiated, cliffhanger shelving has a wall fastening that
    looks like this
    
    ^  |\
    |  |  \
    |  | __\
    3" | |___ <- shelf slots in here
    |  |    /
    |  |  / 
    v  |/
       <-2"->
    
    My artistic talents are quite poor, but hope you get the idea. This
    support can hold 35lb per foot, on shelves up to 15" and comes in
    various lengths. As my speakers are wall mounted too, a fair amount of
    trunking is also used to prevent the illusion that the wall is covered
    in wires.
    
    Sounds great, and the kids can't reach it either - mandatory when your
    wife is a childminder.
    
    Andy

Re. Note 61.2 by ODIUM::PERCIVAL "Well NOONE has ever given me an apple...!"

I don't know where you're based, but IKEA the Swedish Furniture
manufacturer have got two *GIANT* places, one on the North Circular
and one in Warrington. They do a lot of stuff for the whole house
and quite a variety of modular units consisting of things like
a 24"x18"x16" (hxwxd) frame and kits for fitting drawers, wooden
or glass doors, wooden or glass shelves, roll tops, plinths, wide top
panels and the like.

Their stuff seems to be made well (better than your average MFI etc.)
is very reasonably priced and attractively looking too. I'm about
to furnish my lounge with units and they're the most useful bits
I've seen yet.

One thing though, for anyone seeing this and thinking of going to the
one in London: if you're going on a Saturday, get there at 09:00. It
gets *VERY* busy on Saturdays, and they shut the doors at one-ish,
letting in ten people every time ten people leave.

When I got there I was a bit daunted by the size of it, so I went to
the information desk just inside the door and said 'where do I start?'
so the nice lady gave me a catalogue, and a map with a page for taking
notes, and a pencil, and a paper tape measure.

I anybody's interested I'll put in their phone number and maybe they'll
post a catalogue. They don't do mail order yet though.

Hope this is of some help.

Steve.

    Steve,
    
    That sounds pretty good - I'm based in Reading so it's only a few
    miles down the motorway!!  Could you put the phone number of the
    place in here?  I'd like to get myself a catalogue to see what the
    stuff is like - nowadays I have to get stuff that both LOOKS good
    and sounds good!!!
    
    re.3 I quite agree with your comments about rigid sound systems
    - but in fact have done some exhaustive testing on MY equipment
    in MY Environment - and have found ABSOLUTELY no difference in sound
    quality from siting my CD player on a pile of bricks, a CD isolator
    mat on old record player stand, or the cabinet it sits on presently!
    Certainly in other situations your advise is perfectly correct and
    should be followed - but as with all such things - exceptions can
    occur (either that or I'm totally deaf!!!)
    
    Regrads,
    
    Ian

Re. Note 61.6 by ODIUM::PERCIVAL "Well where's my apple then....!"

By a brilliant stroke of pure genius (or was it luck) I actually
copied the phone numbers down before seeing the note. So here
are the details:

IKEA, Brent Park, London. It's on the North Circular, between the
Hanger Lane gyratory and the M1 turnoff. You can't miss it - it's
two GIANT light blue warehouses set about two hundred yards back
from the road on the left. However, you *can* miss the turning
dead easily. There's a ten-ish storey narrow building just beyond
the turning, called the IKEA tower, which I think has got a
predominant yellow colour. The turning has a small additional
signpost saying 'superstore'. Oh yes, the blue warehouses have got
'IKEA' written on them in twenty foot high yellow letters. And the
number is: Store: 01-451-5611, Customer service: 01-451-5566. I'm not
sure which would be most applicable. The stuff I'm most likely to get
is the MARIN modular system on page 68, (but it doesn't have drawers),
with the record deck sitting on its own away from the units.

>                      - and have found ABSOLUTELY no difference in sound
>    quality from siting my CD player on a pile of bricks, a CD isolator
>    mat on old record player stand, or the cabinet it sits on presently!

I don't know what a CD isolator mat is, but don't all these three
options have high mass, i.e. rigid but not light? Have you tried
different interconnects and power cables for the CD? I read somewhere
that they can make a big difference.

I said in .1 that my Sondek is on the IKEA coffee table, which is the
best blah blah... My mate brought his Target turntable table round last
night and we tried them both out. Using the first track on 'Idlewild'
by Everything but the Girl, we were struck immediately by the fact that
on the Target table the sound seemed much more accurate and clear.
However, as soon as she started singing it didn't sound as good. So
we think that the Target is better at some things than others. The Target
table costs about �50. We'll try a few more things tonight.

Thing is though, a lot of the differences are probably being masked by
my not very good speakers and stands that I'm using currently. Also, in
preparation for decorating, I've started moving furniture out of the
lounge and I've got a lousy echo which isn't going to help matters.

My mate's just got his turntable back from being fixed so he's collecting
his Exposure amps tonight :-( and I haven't got a decent amp set up
yet :-( :-( . Still while I'm doing the decorating, I'll mothball the
Sondek and listen to my CD through my Technics amp. I'm sure it's just as
good >^)

Steve.

    I just love this notes file...
    
    The only piece of interesting "furniture" in my room is the stand
    for the turntable.  I worte a piece on it in DSSDEV::AUDIO notes.
    
    The stand is actually a clay drain pipe, about 12" in diameter,
    filled with sand and mounted to the concrete floor with spikes.
    It does a bang up job of reducing airborne interference that used
    to plague the table when it was perched on a walnut table.
    
    Walt

    I'm too embarrassed to tell you what most of my equipment stands on
    right now, but having heard the transformation to sound quality made by
    putting the speakers on spiked stands, I have ordered a similar gadget
    for my Linn Axis.

    The reason for my note is that I am hoping to get a CD in the
    not-too-distant future, and am pondering what it should sit on. Several
    of the replies here allude to simple isolation by board and coat hook,
    which sounds the right sort of approach to me, but I wondered why noone
    mentioned making the shelf from glass, which I feel would be more
    elegant than plywood. Is there any reason why this is not a suitable
    material?

    Happy Christmas to all (our) readers

    Richard 

I've got all the bits now, and the siting of all but the speakers is
now stable. I bought some Marin units from IKEA for records and for
the electronic gizmos, but for various reasons it wasn't all that
convenient to put the gizmos in them after all: TV position and
audio lead length mainly, this would have meant the speakers would
have been too far apart. Whilst puzzling over what to do, I phoned up
Linn Products to get some pointers on speaker placement. I told them
I had an LK1/LK2 amp set-up and that they were both sitting on the
carpet at the time. The guy told me that 'although they tried to design
the LK1 so that it didn't matter what it sat on, it still sounded better
if it was on a stand: why didn't I try it on an IKEA coffee table like
the record deck?'

Fortunately I had another that was under my TV, so one evening my mate
came round and we moved the speakers this way and that with varying effects
and then we tried the preamp on the table. We were expecting to hear
some difference having been told that by Linn. Neither of us were quite
prepared for what we did hear however. The sound had greater depth,
better imagery and longer-lasting echos.

Unfortunately, it's totally impractical to keep my preamp on one of these
coffee tables: I just haven't got the space, so I've contructed two shelf
units to go under the two coffee tables that I have. They are simply
constructed from black contiboard (black sounds so much better than any
other colour ;^) ). There are two shelves and the top shelf I've tried to
isolate by making it smaller so it doesn't touch the sides, and putting
four sharp screws through. The points of these screws protrude about 2-3mm
and sit in the crosshead tops of screws that are in the shelf supports.
By adjusting the lower screws, I can get the shelf level and wobble-free.
I haven't been able to carry out a comparison between this and the preamp
sitting on the coffee table, but it seems to sound OK. This is the
arrangement:


	             TV                        record deck

	XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX   XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
	X                          X   X                          X
	X  |                    |  X   X  |                    |  X
	X  |         CD         |  X   X  |       preamp       |  X
	X  | ------------------ |  X   X  | ------------------ |  X
	X  |                    |  X   X  |                    |  X
	X  |        video       |  X   X  |       tuner        |  X
	X  +--------------------+  X   X  +--------------------+  X
	X  |                    |  X   X  |                    |  X
	X  |      cassette      |  X   X  |     power amp      |  X
	X  +--------------------+  X   X  +--------------------+  X


With this arrangement my CD player now sounds alarmingly good. Nowhere
near as good as the record deck though, of course :-) .

Incidentally my quote from .1 was:

"I have to admit that I'm pretty sceptical about amps and things
(electronic gismos without moving parts) needing any sort of special
stand at all, excepting that they should be allowed to dissipate as
much heat as they need."

I suppose I have to eat my words now, since I've heard the difference,
but I still don't understand it. Have any of you got any notions? I'll
be visiting the Linn factory soon, so perhaps I'll gets some clues then.

My speakers are an ex-dem pair and have therefore been carted around
and set up and taken down far, far more times than is normal in domestic
use. Consequently the spikes on the stand have worn substantial dents
in the base of the speakers. I'm not sure if this will have much effect
on the sound or not, but I suppose I could fill the dents with polyfilla.
Anybody know if polyfilla has a sonic stamp of approval?

The speaker stands themselves 'ring' quite loudly if you hit them even
gently. I could get some of the new stand panels that have come out,
but they're about �90 a pair...

Re .9, I was thinking of putting the gizmos on glass shelves, but I
also didn't know whether it was sonically suitable. I suppose the only
way is try them and find out.

After some experimentation last night with an eminently suitable
victim, sorry witness, I can now report the following:

The LP12 sounds better on the IKEA table than it does on my
floor, though not by orders of magnitude.

The LK1 preamp sounds better on an IKEA table than on the floor,
better still on my shelf arrangement (see .10) and even better
still when I move the top shelf so that the protruding screws are
not sitting in the screw tops, but gently embedded in the wooden
shelf supports so that the shelf doesn't wobble. Now if that's
not a stroke of genius I don't know what is. (For 'genius', read
'luck').

My dealer says the dents in the bottom of the speakers work by the
spikes in the speaker stands do not need to be filled and the sound
will be better with the dents, but then he would say that, wouldn't
he.

Steve.

Hmm, some interesting views here!  Shame this topic hasn't been visited for 
a couple of years.

I'm about to embark on making a new equipment stand for my 
Amp/CD-Transport/DAC/Cassette/Video.  I would like to bounce my idea off 
you all to get your personal views on the design...

My main aim is to make myself a nice looking simple piece of furniture.  My 
secondary aim is to make it technically correct, so it will hopefully 
improve the sound.

I intend to have an open rack either bolted to the wall or spiked into the 
floor with a rigid rear only frame.  These feet and backbone will be made 
of welded iron angle. e.g.   ---|
                             ---|  -backbone of frame, viewed from right
                             ---|   hand side.
                             ___|
                             
Each hi-fi item will be supported on an MDF board, decoupled from iron 
angle side supports, which are welded to the backbone support.  I want to 
avoid supports at the front for asthetic reasons.

De-coupling of this board...   Is it spikes resting on the iron, expensive 
cone thingies or the often spoken sorbothane (topic 123).  Do I use 3 or 
four decoupling points????
                   ________________
e.g.             |[______mdf_______]|
                 |  V            V  |   V is substance xyz!
                 |----          ----|  -this is the angle 

Alternately I can securely bolt the MDF to each angle support.  Very rigid, 
but not decoupled.  Any views?

Most material for this is at hand and I know an experienced wielder who 
will help with the frame.

I intend to cut each board so that it is only the required length at the 
edges, where the equipment front feet lie.  This to mainly cut down area to 
have to dust, but also to allow a bit of creative arcs using a bandsaw!

e.g.              |-----------------|
mdf from above    | o             o |
                  |                 |    o - foot of equipment
                  |    ---------    |
                  |   |         |   |
                  | o |         | o |
                  |---|         |---|

Do you think this is a real sin and will significantly reduce the integrity 
of the 15mm MDF board????

I know most of this is probably subjective, but please give me some 
comments on the method, materials or even finish!

Thanks,
Robert.

    
> of welded iron angle. e.g.   ---|
>                              ---|  -backbone of frame, viewed from right
>                              ---|   hand side.
>                              ___|
>                              
    
    Will this be strong enough ? I don't think I've ever seen a shelf of
    any sort that is built like this. I'd have thought you needed some
    extra support for the shelves, e.g.:
    
    |\
    |--------
    |\
    |--------
    |\
    |--------
    
    Hard to do in ASCII, but I think you can see what I mean.