Conference 7.286::digital

    re .0: How about pressing SHIFT while clicking on the link? Should
    force a download instead of showing anything in the browser window.
    
    This might be better discussed elsewhere, like in the INTERNET_TOOLS
    conference anyway... 

Thanks for this quick reply!

Yes, this works!

(btw, I have posted it in Internet_tools, but no answer until yet; it is/was
really an urgent problem for my customers, so I decided to post it here too)

   Truely urgent problems don't belong in notes conferences.

   If a web browser is fouling up the download, use ftp directly:
	ftp://ftp.service.digital.com/public/vms/axp/v7.0/
	ftp://ftp.service.digital.com/public/vms/vax/v7.0/

   It would appear there is something going on with the proxy server
   path(es) -- contact the maintainers of the proxy servers giving you
   problems, and ask that the maintainers of the proxy servers dump
   the caches.  (This should not affect customers, as these proxy
   servers are located on the internal network.)

   In Netscape, use the alternate mouse button to force a save-to-disk.
   Other browsers may require other techniques.

   Problems accessing the service web site should be sent to the service
   webmaster ([email protected], if memory serves).

   Questions on the ECO itself belong in reply 238.* of VAXAXP::VMSNOTES.

   The mailings were shipped out of OpenVMS engineering back in February,
   thought European sites have been receiving these letters THIS WEEK. 
   (Our customers are NOT HAPPY.)

    Re: In Europe - Our customers are not happy (rcvng the mailings this
    week)
    
    Nor are the employees on the sharp end of the calls from the unhappy
    customers. Someone somewhere should be carrying the can for this.
    
    regards
    john

>   Truely urgent problems don't belong in notes conferences.

  I've seen this so many times it is really getting to be a pain.  Urgent
  problems belong in the hands of the people that can fix them.  If that
  isn't happening then the people that recognize there is a problem should
  put them wherever they can get attention.

  Remember?  Whatever it takes.

  If it's Notes... don't knock it.  Learn it.  Use it.  Love it.

	mikeP

How many times have "urgent" problems been posted to a NOTES 
conference in which the answer already appears?

IE, the problem and posting of same is extremely urgent, but it's 
not that urgent that the person would actually take the time to 
look for an already-posted answer.

That's what REALLY bugs me sometimes.

>IE, the problem and posting of same is extremely urgent, but it's 
>not that urgent that the person would actually take the time to 
>look for an already-posted answer.

I post the note.  Then I look for the answer.  Then I can apologize if someone
give me the pointer to the answer or complains that I should have looked 8^)

I think it is normal for the majority of people to put the question out first.

	mikeP

    
> I think it is normal for the majority of people to put the question out first.
    
    Right. The majority of the people does appear not to be too bright.
    They prefer to speak before listening, write befor thinking.
    
    Inexplicably they prefer to waste their own time typing up an often 
    underspecified question versus using past and present search engines
    available to them for a much more timely answer. What bothers me
    still nore in those repeat questions is the time they cause to be
    wasted by others interpreting, analyzing, sometimes doubly answerring.
    
    Past engines were limited and slowish: For example NOTES> DIR /TIT 
    or DIR/KEY within a conference. Present engines are quit impressive
    cross notefile boundaries: COMET and the ALTAVISTA NOTES search.
    
    2�,
    	Hein.
     
    

If I have a problem and don't find an answer, it's only because the 
note in which the answer resides is titled inaccurately.

I always look before asking, so maybe I'm an exception to human 
nature.  Or maybe I'm just weird.

    Re. the last few
    
    FLAME ON
    
    One should not underestimate the talent of the Engineering function in
    hiding answers in unlikely parts of notes conferences using jargon and
    abbreviations which the person searching may not know. My suspicion is
    that some engineers are still living in a dream world where suport
    personel are dedicated to supporting just a few products and can find
    their way round the byzantine and individualist maze which various 
    engineering gurus cheerfully design. The fact is we don't even have a
    proper set of spds, or even the concept of an intelligent and logical
    information architecture.
    
    The new telemarketing centers provide multi-lingual telephone support for 
    each and  every product Digital sells or which runs on our platforms.
    Answers you can find in 30 seconds are best. The person you are talking
    to may not know the difference between Vax and Alpha, but they may be
    trying to SELL our products. AltaVista and Comet are good, but they
    generate a lot of fog. Dir/tit is wonderful if you know what you are
    looking for. But the big piss-off is this: you have a salesrep/partner doing
    heavy breathing on the phone looking for information to help close a
    large sale. You spend 30 minutes doing searches and finally you post a
    query in a notes conference. Instead of the answer you get an arrogant
    put down from an egghead who knows the answer telling you to do a
    dir/tit=wierd_abbreviation in the notes conference
    NODE::old_product_name. I hope there are some people who are offended
    when they read this and if there are they should read Bruce Claflin's
    excellent principles and shake off old attitudes.  
     
    FLAME OFF
    
    On the original subject, yes some customers are very upset at being
    told so late about the delta time problem. One who called me wanted to
    know if he needed to relink migration rpg. Dir/tit? Oh yes that'll do
    it.
    
    ..Kevin..
             

    Re -1
    
    Ditto!
    
    I have noticed several replies in the last few months (mainly in the
    more technical notes conferences) which I would certainly view as
    offensive or patronising at the very least. .8 being a good example!
    This kind of thing does NOT help people... I am sure I've asked some
    pretty dumm questions in various notes conferences, and in the main I
    receive incredibly helpful responses, but mixed in are responses which
    adopt a general tone of 'Why the hell are you wasting my time asking me
    this ya dummy?' Well nobody says you have to respond!!!
    
    Alen.

Well, I agree with everything you said, which is why I said that I 
wouldn't be able to find an answer buried in a badly-titled note [nor 
would I expect anyone else to].

IMHO anyone in a customer support role MUST have an EIRS/TIMA/STARS account 
that gets them access to the STARS.  All of the technical notes conferences 
are 'gerbilized' every night and STARS makes searching them very easy.  It 
is very rare that I ever have to use SEARCH in Notes.

Jilly

RE: .10 -< Dit/tit=customer focus=more revenue, stupid! >-

Kevin, I completely agree with you concerning our lack of organization 
around information, poorly written SPDs (when they exist, as you rightly
point out), and plethora of places to look for things.  But I must disagree
with one point you made:

>  large sale. You spend 30 minutes doing searches and finally you post a
>  query in a notes conference. Instead of the answer you get an arrogant
>  put down from an egghead who knows the answer telling you to do a
>  dir/tit=wierd_abbreviation in the notes conference NODE::old_product_name

While in some cases the person entering the pointer might do so with a
certain lack of grace and style, or even be having a bad day and be rude
about it, be aware that they took time out of their busy day and gave
you the information you needed!

Most of the answers I am looking for cannot be explained in a sentence or
two.  Most of the answers I am looking for require extensive explanations
with lots of supporting documenation, pointers to presentations, some
followup questions because the original point wasn't clear, etc.  All of
these are present in NODE::OLD_PRODUCT_NAME, available for your perusal
now that you have the pointer.  Copying these to HUMANE::DIGITAL, for
example, represents a lot of work, wastes disk space, and prevents you
from seeing the followup discussions which occur after the original
copy was done.

I am *THRILLED* when I get a pointer to the source material, in a notes
file that I may have never heard of.  It means that I have a new place
to look for information, where people who are directly working on that
product hang out and respond to questions.

So, Kevin, my suggestion is that you filter out the emotion, and be 
grateful to the person who took the time to point you to the answer.
By your own admission, you didn't have the information before they
wrote their response, and now you (probably) do.  They helped you, 
even if they may not have been totally pleasant while doing so.

-- Ken Moreau

:Kevin, I completely agree with you concerning our lack of organization 
:around information, poorly written SPDs (when they exist, as you rightly
:point out), and plethora of places to look for things.  But I must disagree
:with one point you made:

   No argument on the disorganization, but that's been the case for
   my tenure here at DIGITAL and I see no central repository on the
   horizon -- WebIR is a good start, but it now has a strong phobia
   around providing ASCII-format text for documents that should be
   available in ASCII, and thus sometimes needs a PC to use it...

   There are a series of search engines around DIGITAL that should be
   the first stops for any queries -- several folks have posted pointers
   to these engines in the low-numbered notes over in VAXAXP::VMSNOTES.

:>  large sale. You spend 30 minutes doing searches and finally you post a
:>  query in a notes conference. Instead of the answer you get an arrogant
:>  put down from an egghead who knows the answer telling you to do a
:>  dir/tit=wierd_abbreviation in the notes conference NODE::old_product_name

   Some folks around memorize all these pesky acronyms, but that's not
   normal...   And these pesky acronyms continuously breed, with a whole
   new set arising every six months or so...

   I use this "look there" response format quite regularly, and I do this
   to show folks how to find this sort of information, and what resources
   are available to look for information, and how I found a particular
   answer.

   And when posting this format answer, I usually try to include the "short
   answer" with the reply, but sometimes there isn't really a "short answer"
   available, or I might end up confusing things further, or I don't know
   the short answer, but I know where to look for it...  (And by posting a
   pointer to a conference, I am trying to keep the related questions and
   information together...)

	--

   Notes and on-line communications are poor mechanisms for conveying
   mannerisms and subtle nuances of communications -- a quick comment
   made via e-mail or notes, for instance, can cause consternation when
   unintentional inferences arise.

    re .14
    
    Ken,
    
    Sorry about this, but the essence of what you are saying is complacent
    in my view. The point is that we have a large community of support
    personell, both internal, and partners, who simply cannot find their
    way round this jungle. You cannot assume that everone is as
    sophisticated and clued up as you are. Partners are prepared to make a 
    phone call or two, but if they don't get an answer fast, they give up and 
    sell HP products instead. The whole approach implicit in your answer is 
    upside down. The chain, after Claflin is: Customer<-Support<-Engineering.
    Therefore it is not the task of Support to learn weird and wonderful skills
    to find obscure information. It is the task of Engineering to supply the
    information in a digestable form, which can be found quickly and
    easily, and which support people can learn how to get around after one
    day of training. Those who answer me with the comment, look here, or
    use this tool are missing my point. Nobody has disputed my case
    that we do not have a coherent and integrated information
    architecture. Those defending the present anarchy are defending the
    indefensible.
    
    On filtering emotion -- well emotion is useful if it helps
    communication. Sometimes there is plenty to get huffy about. However, I
    accept the need to be constructive, and, when I get round to it, I'll
    write a note explaining what I would like to see.
    
    ..Kevin..  
                                                                   

I was surprised that this little entry was continued after 2 days with .3, so I
apologize for my late answer. But there was no time left.

Thanks to all for your interest. But some answers make me very angry.

I always use STARS or COMET to find informations. Especially COMET is my
favorite information service. Only if  I cannot find an solution this way, I
try to waste time, sorry, to write a Notes entry with my poor English. I try to
restrict the entry to the important informations and questions to make it fast
to read and easily to understand, hoping it results in a quick answer.

But it seems to be necessary to tell the whole history, how many hours you have
searched the informations databases and what keywords were used and so on, only
to avoid answers like "don't ask for known problems".

I have spent hours to reproduce the download problem to examine it, to reduce
the problem to the proxy servers and to find (in vain) a solution or a
workaround all costumers can use. And not only me. Maybe I have overseen the
entry with the "shift click" hint, but even in the replies there was not said
where to find. I have searched the databases up and down with COMET, but if you
don't know exact search items you get hundreds of results or nothing. I'm not a
Netscape Expert: How to describe downloading into browser window, so COMET
knows what to find? Do you know how long INTERNET_TOOLS Note 3480 is? Do you
have much time?

Last week we had about four - five times more service calls because of the
delta time problem. We tried to calm customers who were very angry about being
informed so late (if they were informed at all), to answer their questions and
to help them getting the patch as soon as possible. There was no time or
resources left, everyone in our group was busy with the delta time service
calls. And then this kind of problem! I was very, very glad to get the hint
with "shift click", and no one can tell me, that this entry wasn't worth being
made or that it was waste of time! It saved a lot of time!

Believe me: If I use the word "urgent" then it means "urgent". I would have
posted it only in Internet_tools if I would have had time enough to wait until
next day, but this was not the case. If you get more and more customers with
the same problem within hours and you have no solution, all people you know
too, then you have to make a decision: Ring the bell or wait for a miracle.
I have no problem to hold my decision because I know the situation last week
and I know the result. There is more waste of time with sophisticated
discussions about the correct use of Notes.

Regards,
Stephan

RE: correct use of notes

This brings up somewhat of a circular issue with NOTES ... so many 
problems are repeated in so many places that it takes forever to find 
anything.  And some people don't have the time to look through all of 
the repetitive entries, so they post a new note.  And now the 
information store is even bigger.

    Use PAN, it's wonderful...
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

Also see Altavista Notes:

	http://altavista.notes.lkg.dec.com:8000/

    > Use PAN, it's wonderful...  
    
    and what is PAN?
    
    BTW - the author/maintainer of COMET, Chris Hill left the company.  It
    appears COMET will not be maintained.  See:
    
    http://comet.alf.dec.com/usr/users/chris/message.txt
    
    --Steve 

    re: AV Notes and COMET
    
    COMET has no funding, and now has no maintainer. It's bound to wither
    and die...
    
    AV Notes appears to be a midnite project, and only tracks a subset of
    Easynet conferences. If that's not enough, the list of disclaimers on
    page 1 would be enough to convince most not to count on AV Notes for
    help in a pinch:
    
    ALTAVISTA NOTES 
         This is an experimental Alta Vista index of most of the Easynet
    	 Conferences. It can and will be unreachable or out-of-date or empty 
         at various times. Use at your own risk! 
    
         This serviced to a signficantly slower and less capable machine.
         Your searches *will* be slower. Donation of a AlphaStation 500 class 
         machine with 256MB of memory would be most welcome. 

    hey,
    
    what a great idea, kill off Comet, AV-Notes, and PRoSIC
    (http://sawhorse.cxo.dec.com) and make it more difficult for the
    support engineers to do their job!
    
    what a way to run a rail-road :'\
    
    H

    PAN is a tool for playing with Notes conferences. It's fast
    and efficient, and can be used in batch or from DCL like this:
    
pan dir conf entryname *.*/tit="blah"
pan dir conf/nono node::conf *.*/auth=name
pan extr/out=disk:[dir]filename node::conf/NONOTEBOOK 398.*
pan extr/out=disk:[dir]filename entryname 398.*
pan rep/from=disk:[dir]filename entryname notenumber/tit="title"
pan sea node::conf/NONOTEBOOK *.* search_string
pan sea entryname *.* search_string
pan copy notes entryname disk:[dir]filename/cre/nonotebook
pan copy mail/new=wastebasket/single <conf> <mail_folder>    ! 1 note per mail
pan copy mail/new=wastebasket <conf> <mail_folder>           ! 1 note ALL mails
pan copy mail/new=wastebasket <conf> <mail_folder> -
             /dir=node"""user pass"""::disk:[dir]            ! 1 note ALL mails
    
    All is revealed in 43975::PAN
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

While AltaVista notes may be a midnight hack and have some
daunting disclaimers, it's stable for at least the near term.
And despite it doing a "subset" of notes conferences, it
seems to have every one I've  ever cared about, excluding,
or course, members-only conferences.

Generally speaking, a Matt Thomas midnight hack is about 50%
better than our best production software :-).

j.

Yes, Chris Hill's rather sudden departure has left us without the 
COMET creator and maintainer. Since the inner workings of COMET are 
a maze of twisty little passages, it means that COMET will likely be 
replaced with something else.  My organization owns COMET and we are 
taking steps to keep the system functioning, including data updates, 
until an appropriate plan can be developed.

In essence, COMET is just another indexing search engine, which we 
have many of these days. It is clearly of particular value to folks 
internally. One of the things we have to investigate is just what it 
is about COMET that makes it so valuable. Is it the interface, the 
search mechanism, the collection of data, etc.  If you have any 
comments to make on that matter I would be glad to receive them - 
probably via mail rather than clutter up this note any further.

Mark Hyde
MCS PM&D SIE KIS
[email protected]

Now that I'm at AltaVista, the system running AltaVista is "borrowed".
It should move to DEC 3000 model 900 "Real-Soon-Now(TM)" which will
be it's permanent home.  Currently it indexes 2100 conferences (which
is the majority of the unrestricted conferences on the network) and
has nearly 9 million pages.

When conferences move (or are renamed, etc.) the database needs to
be updated manually.  Indexing can be automatic.  The thing that's
lacking is a tool to scrub the database (clean out old pages) but
AltaVista Intranet Search doesn't have a mechanism to do that.

    I am sorry to hear that Chris Hill has left Digital.  COMET has, at
    times, been a most invaluable tool for me.  I am very grateful that
    he spent the time and resources to have originally developed it as 
    an alternative to STARS.  
    
    I wish him well, as I am sure he will do.  It is a shame that continues
    to loose such talent...
    
    -Andy

    
    
    >In essence, COMET is just another indexing search engine, which we 
    >have many of these days. It is clearly of particular value to folks 
    >internally. One of the things we have to investigate is just what it 
    >is about COMET that makes it so valuable. Is it the interface, the 
    >search mechanism, the collection of data, etc.  If you have any 
    >comments to make on that matter I would be glad to receive them - 
    >probably via mail rather than clutter up this note any further.

    I would rather comment about COMET here than privately.

    You are right in that it is hard to say exactly what it is about COMET
    that has made it so useful to me.  I will say that it has proven to be
    the most useful tool for finding internal information that I have used
    in my 14 years at Digital, from a field support point of view.  Period.

    I find it better than Internal Altavista, albeit I use that also. 
    Perhaps COMET's database is superior -- it has indexed CHAMP, most
    NOTES conferences, STARS, Internal WEB pages...apparently at least 12
    different data sources.  Perhaps its default "logical *and*" syntax
    works better for me.  Perhaps it simply somehow caters to the kind of
    information I tend to need, just by luck.

    I do know that the loss of COMET will make my job harder.  Much harder!
    I use it daily.  My ability to quickly find and then learn about
    technologies that I do not have the luxury of focusing on is made more
    possible by COMET. To my knowledge, for my work, there is no better
    internal search tool.
     
    I hope it doesn't go away.  Our very best tools do seem to be unfunded
    and by talented people who understand a need but can't play the
    beggar's game.  They tend to understand what tools are really useful
    because they work in a job that needs them.  They tend to be generous
    by building tools to get a job done and then give them to the rest of
    us to help us get our jobs done.  But, we have lost a lot of those
    people and we're not the same company without them (and their tools).

    --Steve

Well, just to add completeness to this note the last remaining STARS developer has 
also just left Digital. I believe the decision was to find an off the self tool
to replace both stars and comet. liesl

COMET is a god-send. I have found fixes to very obscure
problems there. Trying to use stars these days is almost
impossible as there are so many databases. COMET makes
using stars etc a viable option.

Simon

    COMET is excellent!!
    
    .26>>In essence, COMET is just another indexing search engine
    
    "Just another" implies that it can be easily replaced. :-(
    
    So please, take on the challenge, approve the budget and replace it by
    something even better!!
    
    I look forward to the "improved" COMET replacement. :-)
    
    Peter
    (Who always consults COMET before calling tech support)
     

>5288.31 

>COMET is a god-send. I have found fixes to very obscure
>problems there. Trying to use stars these days is almost
>impossible as there are so many databases. COMET makes
>using stars etc a viable option.

I exclusively use STARS and get around the multiple DB by having sessions 
with different DB selected in each session.  Works well for me.  Since I 
WFH and refuse to use a tunnel that will blow away my sessions multiple 
times a day, I require a character cell interface.  Lynx to access 
AltaVista internally and Comet's CC interface just don't cut it for me.

Jilly

When I did customer support, I used STARS (STRS - remember when we weren't
supposed to use the "A"?) and COMET regularly.  COMET was *great* for when
I got a semi-frequently asked question that wasn't frequent enough for me 
to have committed it to memory.  I could search through CHAMP and find not
only the question, but the answer.  If I had worked on a particularly odd
call, I could even mark my CHAMP entry with a keyword of my own (at the 
bottom of my text) and then I could use COMET to search for that keyword.

STARS was great for helping look up everything else, including lots and lots
of good programming examples.

Alta Vista, which I never used for customer support, is good, but I believe
it is much too slow for the speed I needed then.  I am concerned that whatever
third party product we choose will not do as well for DIGITAL people as COMET
and STARS have done. 

    Carol

    One of the things I found most useful about COMET was it didn't care
    about empires. It gave me, as a field employee not in MCS, access to
    the wealth of info which is in STARS, as well as the stuff in NOTES. If
    it's in STARS as customer readable, I can then refer the customer query
    to the answer in STARS and say "here it is, if it it's useful, we can
    provide this kind of info for you directly". Etc.
    
    What do they use at MS (since that's the way we seem to be going ...)?
    
    regards
    john

>> What do they use at MS (since that's the way we seem to be going ...)?
        
	Knowledge Base.    http://www.microsoft.com/kb/

	~Ian.

    
    For anyone that reads this string later, the web pointer in .20 doesn't
    help you too much.
    
    >http://altavista.notes.lkg.dec.com:8000
    
    Access Denied, Sorry, you are not currently allowed to request...
    
    Marc
    

    I just tried it and it still worked for me...

RE: .37

	Sounds like you don't have anything set for No Proxy.
	(ie: dec.com or *.dec.com)

							mike