Conference 7.286::digital

    
    Yup.  That's the plan as far as I understand it.
    

    Does this mean that the Digital Personal Workstation will also run
    OpenVMS? -- Or do we cut VMS off of Workstations? 
    
    Just curious ...

    Uh, what's a "Digital Personal Workstation"?
    

    When you visit http://www.workstation.digital.com/products/work_stn.html 
    you will see the two families. The whole AlphaStation family seems to 
    be going End-of-Life this fall whereas the DIGITAL Personal Workstation
    family has just picked up Digital UNIX s(V4.0C) upport with the 433au/500au 
    variants. 
    

    Have the 'au' series been announced?  I haven't seen a press release or
    anything at www.workstation.digital.com.
    
    	Steve

:    Does this mean that the Digital Personal Workstation will also run
:    OpenVMS? -- Or do we cut VMS off of Workstations? 

   Work is going on to support OpenVMS on the PWS Alpha family.  (This
   area will be better once the Pyxis bug is straightened out...)

    
    Pyxis issues aside, the schedule is being driven by the Workstation
    Group Product Management.  We have not been very aggresive in getting
    the support ready, since they do not want VMS on it soon, they would
    rather have VMS soak up the excess AS255 inventory once Unix is
    released on the MX5.  And don't expect price parity with Unix on it,
    they "don't want to leave money on the table".  Slash & Burn.
    
    We plan to have support in a hardware release in Q1.  When you can
    actually buy a VMS license for it is a PM decision.
    
    

�    We plan to have support in a hardware release in Q1.

Will this support be limited to the Personal Workstation series or will it
include the Alpha XL or, dare I say, the Alpha Multia ?

Thanks,
Hans.

    
    If memory serves me correctly, the XL is a Avanti/Mustang clone with a
    SROM that will not load the SRM console.  To my knowledge the answer is
    no.  As to the Multia, we had a prospect that wanted to buy 8000+ of
    them running OpenVMS, and the powers-that-be decided the answer was no,
    that they should buy a workstation (which is not what they wanted).  So
    I think it's obvious the answer is no (one day I'll get around to
    looking at why the ethernet doesn't work on my Multia running OpenVMS).
    
    The Q1 hardware release is slated to contain support for the MX5 (that
    is, the Miata that will be sold for NT/UNIX/VMS).  The code will be
    there, but I don't know what the product group plans for when to
    start selling it.
    
    
    

Buried on one of the web pages announcing the new "au" series (u=UNIX, would
seem the obvious interpretation from all else being said), is a note that 
OpenVMS support for these systems will be available by "Q4CY97".

					Steve

>Buried on one of the web pages announcing the new "au" series (u=UNIX, would
>seem the obvious interpretation from all else being said), is a note that 
>OpenVMS support for these systems will be available by "Q4CY97".
    
    u = universal  (NT and Unix today, VMS soon)
    
    -Bruce

    Perhaps u=universal, but the pages all scream UNIX and make it seem
    that u=UNIX.  A poor choice, in my opinion.
    
    					Steve

I thought that the DPW 500au, stood for DPW 500 Gold a la Netscape
Navigator Gold (you can do more with it that with the non-Gold version)

Ram :-)

>            <<< Note 5254.13 by INDYX::ram "Ram Rao, PBPGINFWMY" >>>
>                                -< Au = Gold >-
>
>I thought that the DPW 500au, stood for DPW 500 Gold a la Netscape
>Navigator Gold (you can do more with it that with the non-Gold version)
>
>Ram :-)

And here was I thinking it was the Australian part number variant.

|   Perhaps u=universal, but the pages all scream UNIX and make it seem
|   that u=UNIX.  A poor choice, in my opinion.
    
    Much better to have shouted from the rooftops about an OS we can't
    deliver this fiscal year?
    
    								-mr. bill

The official press release in livewire for "au" made obsolutely *no* 
mention of OpenVMS support.  This will likely be seen by some a more 
evidence that Digital is "killing" OpenVMS, impacting future workstation 
*and* server sales.

Will somebody please explain why the press announcement could not have 
included one tiny sentence hinting at future OpenVMS support?  The one 
sentance addition to the press announcement would have cost nothing and 
would have prevented alienation of our "cash cow" market segment.


						-Paul

Had we anounced VMS support in the future, I doubt we'd sell any more
of the inventory of EV45 machines that we're trying to pawn off now.

>>> Had we anounced VMS support in the future, I doubt we'd sell any more
>>> of the inventory of EV45 machines that we're trying to pawn off now.

Please explain how alienating our most loyal customer base is a "solution" 
for the lack of hardware inventory control.


							-Paul

Yes, the "rational" strikes me as a complete non-sequitor too.

| The official press release in livewire for "au" made obsolutely *no* 
| mention of OpenVMS support.  This will likely be seen by some a more 
| evidence that Digital is "killing" OpenVMS, impacting future workstation 
| *and* server sales.
    
    No doubt.  And if the press release mentioned OpenVMS, it would
    likely be seen by some as more evidence that Digital is "killing"
    OpenVMS.  (Don't laugh, I've heard more than one comment that this
    is what this announcement means about Digital UNIX on the desktop.)
    
    
    Anyhow, if one of you would take the time to actually look at:
    
    http://www.workstation.digital.com/products/auseries/auhigh.html
    
    You'd see "* Support for OpenVMS (Q4 CY97)".
    
    (It's not planned until OpenVMS V7.1-1H1.)
    
    								-mr. bill

    re: .17 by DECCXL::OUELLETTE                                         
    
| Had we anounced VMS support in the future, I doubt we'd sell any more
| of the inventory of EV45 machines that we're trying to pawn off now.
    
    While OpenVMS support wasn't highlighted in the press release,
    it is indeed mentioned on the web pages.
    
    re: .18 by STAR::jacobi.zko.dec.com::jacobi
    
| Please explain how alienating our most loyal customer base is a "solution" 
| for the lack of hardware inventory control.
    
    Uh, since we did indeed tell the world that OpenVMS is coming to
    the Personal Worksation au-Series, you might want to rethink that
    request.
    
    re: .20 by STAR::KLEINSORGE
    
    Too many errors to even begin to comment on.
    
    								-mr. bill

    The Customer Update also mentions VMS, just once and in a sentence
    which makes no sense whatsoever. I quote from the PDF version in VTX IR
    (CU5202), last sentence on first page:
    
    "DIGITAL AlphaStation prices have been reduced to provide an
    exceptional value to UNIX and OpenVMS will be and offered through the
    end of calendar year 1997".
    
    I can't even guess what they were trying to say. 
    
    regards
    john

It took me about 10 minutes of following various link "trees" before I found
the VMS statement, and I knew it was there!

				Steve

>    No doubt.  And if the press release mentioned OpenVMS, it would
>    likely be seen by some as more evidence that Digital is "killing"
>    OpenVMS.  (Don't laugh, I've heard more than one comment that this
>    is what this announcement means about Digital UNIX on the desktop.)
    
    Of course.  The way the press release is worded, the boxes are "a way to
    transition from UNIX to NT".  How would you expect people to react with
    that type of wording?  It's _our_ marketing spin that is making people
    believe that.
    

|It took me about 10 minutes of following various link "trees" before I found
|the VMS statement, and I knew it was there!
    
    Three clicks:
    
    Workstation homepage
    Digital Personal Workstation - the au Series
    au-Series Highlights
    
    http://www.workstation.digital.com/
    http://www.workstation.digital.com/announce/auseries_an.html
    http://www.workstation.digital.com/products/auseries/auhigh.html
    
    -----
    
    I've been unable to find anything about OpenVMS support of the
    au-Series on the other obvious place:
    
    OpenVMS homepage
    http://www.openvms.digital.com/
    
    								-mr. bill

>>>    Uh, since we did indeed tell the world that OpenVMS is coming to
>>>    the Personal Worksation au-Series, you might want to rethink that
>>>    request.

Only Digital marketing could define "telling the world" as absense of any 
mention of OpenVMS in the formal press release, and obscuring the 
information in some tree of Web pages!


							-Paul

    re: .22
    
    Well Bill, you can argue my interpretation of things, but hey, that's
    life reading tea leaves.  Pick nits, spin it a different way.  The WS
    group is telling VMS customers to leaave VMS directly these days, and
    get back to me when the 2K difference between VMS and UNIX WS goes up
    again.
    
    

    re: .22
    
    What Fred laid out in .20 is EXACTLY what my CUSTOMER understands the
    VMS workstation plight to be.  This customer integrates 65 VMS
    workstations per month into his product for resale.
    
    That is all that counts --> perception is reality.
    
    Randy
    

    Yep, I know of several product managers in my area that are basing
    their future plans on an understanding similar to Fred's in .20.
    
    				-John

| Only Digital marketing could define "telling the world" as absense of any 
| mention of OpenVMS in the formal press release, and obscuring the 
| information in some tree of Web pages!
    
    I'm not in Digital marketing.
    
    But let's acknoweldge that we do work for a company that has not yet
    issued a formal press release about the 21264!
    
    
    So take a look at recent press releases, and see if you can find a single
    one that mentions any Digital product that will be available starting
    in Q4 CY1997.  (Closest I came was an announcement about SA-100, where
    Wind River Systems said Tornado would be in beta during the second
    quarter, formal release in the fourth quarter.)
    
    
    Reality check:
    
    Windows NT was ready for the DIGITAL Personal Workstation in January.
    UNIX is ready for the DPW au-Series now.
    OpenVMS will be ready for the DPW au-Series in Q4 CY1997.
    
    
    Not mentioning OpenVMS in a press release about the au-Series
    is *NOT* a slight to our OpenVMS customers.
    
    It's just more evidence that we are *VERY* timid about talking about
    futures in press releases.
    
    
    (Compared to say, SGI, who announced in January 1996 that the
    275MHz R10000 would be available by the end of 1996.)
    
    
    								-mr. bill

>    Yep, I know of several product managers in my area that are basing
>    their future plans on an understanding similar to Fred's in .20.

.20 seems to have disappeared.

-Joe

RE: .22 -< * Support for OpenVMS (Q4 CY97) >-

>| Had we anounced VMS support in the future, I doubt we'd sell any more
>| of the inventory of EV45 machines that we're trying to pawn off now.
>    
>    While OpenVMS support wasn't highlighted in the press release,
>    it is indeed mentioned on the web pages.

I am reminded of a phrase from the 1960's, where certain people were
complaining over the disparity in accessibility to the news media between
Washington politicians and the protesters:

	It ain't free speech if they get 30 minutes on all 3 TV networks,
	and I get a soapbox on a street corner.

The public press release, which went to newspapers and all other news
media, failed to mention OpenVMS in any way.  It carefully mentioned the
other operating systems, but it didn't say *one word* about the operating
system which is supposed to be part of our core competency.

Saying that we made up for it by a single tiny note buried in the 
bottom of an internal only article, or a single tiny sentence fragment
buried at the bottom of a WWW article which itself is buried way down
deep at the bottom of a set of WWW pages (which was difficult to find 
even by sophisticated people who knew what they were looking for), is
ludicrous at best and disingenuous at worst.

Sorry, mr bill, I don't agree with your point, and I don't see how you
could make it with a straight face...

-- Ken Moreau

    
    I am responsible for having deleted .20 which follows.  I withdrew it
    after having decided that this was just continuing to take us down a
    rathole, where no minds are changed.  In the end, it just pisses off
    the people who I would rather try to convince to help VMS, and help
    themselves succeed.
    
    But since a number of people have sent mail and now written notes, here
    is .20.  Like it or not, this is the perception of many, many VMS
    customers (perhaps with less inside information to back up their
    beliefs).
    
    
    
             <<< HUMANE::DISK$SCSI:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIGITAL.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< The Digital way of working >-
================================================================================
Note 5254.20   AlphaStations being discontinued in favor of DPWS?       20 of 28
STAR::KLEINSORGE "Fred Kleinsorge, OpenVMS Engineer" 58 lines   7-MAY-1997 10:03
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'll give you the reasons:
    
    	- Digital does not care about the installed VMS customer base -
    	  except for what *current* revenue it can generate.  The company
    	  long ago decided that VMS was a mature product that could not
    	  continue to expand (well, they mistook the nose dive of the VAX
    	  in price performance for the knee in the growth curve for VMS).
    
    	- Digital is doing everything in it's power to maximize *current*
    	  revenue, and pumping the money into the chosen "strategic growth
    	  platforms".
    
    	- The last 5-7 years have driven off all of the VMS customers who can
    	  "easily" move from VMS to another O/S.  The remainder either are
    	  fanatics, or have too large of an investment to walk away from.
    
    	- The only VMS customer of interest are the ones who will buy high
    	  margin server systems.  VMS workstations are, as a VP told me (to
    	  paraphrase) "an irrational market, which I have no idea how to
    	  sell into, because there is not a understandable set of reasons
    	  why customers buy them".
    
    	- The business managers in both VMS and Workstations believe that
    	  the demand for VMS is inflexable, and not responsive to price. 
    	  They believe that dropping the price will not increase volume,
    	  or worse that it will shift the buying from higher margin servers
    	  to lower margin workstations.  They also believe that increasing
    	  the price will not alter the predicted decline in sales
    	  signifcantly.  So, the operative phrase (which I honest-to-god
    	  overheard) is "don't leave any money on the table".  So the
    	  debate is how much to increase the differential between VMS and
    	  UNIX - not how to get VMS onto the lowest cost hardware.
    
    	- The workstation group believes that it must have volume, and that
    	  the only volume that is possible is in NT.  Now, this misses the
    	  boat because the volume is in Intel NT systems, and not in Alpha
    	  NT sales, which are unlikely to ever be more than a niche market.
    
    	  Even in Alpha NT, the only market will be servers, and "maybe" a
    	  small niche in high-performance 3D workstations, a real tough
    	  market to crack - and still a relatively low volume one.
    
    And the truth is, the VMS workstation market is evaporating, and we are
    well on our way to ramping it down to non-existance.  There will be no
    more Open3D devices for OpenVMS other than the ones currently offered. 
    There will be a *single* workstation graphics option (3D30/4D20) for
    all systems after the EV56 (the servers will continue a S3 V+ low-end).
    It is the result of a self-fulfilling prophesy, first it was that UNIX
    would take off and dominate, and VMS would disappear, now it's NT.
    
    The only amazing thing is that given the lack of care & feeding of VMS
    and the VMS customer base, that the decline has remained as small as it
    has.  I believe that this is due to A) the quality of the product, and
    B) the sometimes heroic efforts of the VMS engineering organization to
    keep pace with technology in the face of declining engineering budget
    and people (SCSI clusters, VLM, memory channel, Galaxies,
    connectivity...).
    

>    is .20.  Like it or not, this is the perception of many, many VMS
>    customers (perhaps with less inside information to back up their
>    beliefs).

    Also groups outside of OpenVMS.  If OpenVMS knows something positive
    about their future, they sure aren't even communicating it well to
    groups here in ZK much less outside.  Reading the tea leaves over
    here in ZK2 isn't getting the job done.
    
    				-John

    
    Well, despite the rumours of our demise, we are still here.  We have
    embraced the fact that we are being pushed into a database server niche,
    instead of being a soups-to-nuts, desktop-to-datacenter O/S.
    
    Our focus is on scaleable servers, and connectivity to NT servers and
    PC clients.  Galaxies on servers being developed for next calendar year
    will give OpenVMS a great server message.  Scale a server from as small
    and you want, to as big as you need (and I mean big, our target is
    300,000 tps, with the architecture designed to scale to 1m tps as the
    hardware scales).  Highly reliable, you should never need to shut the
    Galaxy down - even for hardware upgrades.  The next step beyond SMP and
    clusters - APMP (Adaptive Partitioned Multi-Processing).
    
    The server message, combined with connectivity to PC's and NT position
    VMS to be a 24x7x365 backroom server to all the cool internet stuff,
    Oracle database stuff, as well as continuing to serve the existing VMS
    base.
    
    But technology alone won't win us anything if the company is not fully
    behind it, internally, and externally.
    
    Our server customers are *excited* about it.  We have dejected folks
    comming in prepared to leave still gloomy about the future prospects for
    VMS, and worried that they are out on a limb with their management for
    having stuck with VMS against the tide.  They leave literally jumping
    up and down... "This is the old DEC.  Man is this cool." is a frequent
    set of comments.
    

    Uh,oh Fred, now you've done it. By your mentioning that customers are
    excited about it, and even worse, by saying that "...this is the old
    DEC", someone's gonna hafta kill it now. Now, if the customer had said 
    that "this is the old Digital" or "this is the old Digital Equipment
    Corporation" or even better, "this is the old DIGITAL", then you might've 
    had a chance.
    
    Oh well.
    
    8-}

    
    Fred,
    
    re: 300,000 tps system .. As a suggestion, perhaps we should use
    an Intel marketing trick to highlight to OpenVMS cust's that we are
    indeed investing heavily in OpenVMS ..
    
    Leak this info about the high end server, with a few sideline tidbits
    about really high availability and online HW replacement to a few selected 
    reporters, and then respectfully decline comment when asked for official 
    comment ..
    
    Also, need to publish a road map futures to show that we are serious
    about OpenVMS futures .. we could always add the std Microsoft
    qualifier "this may change, based on input from Customer feedback .."
    
    / Kerry

    
    We are getting the message out.  But to some extent, it's stealth
    marketing.  There should be further stuff at DECUS, and if you get a
    chance to go, ask to see the *demo* (under suitable NDA ;-)