| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 5218.1 | Part Numbers are difficult to Boot.. | COMEUP::SIMMONDS | loose canon | Tue Apr 01 1997 05:31 | 0 |
| 5218.2 | ? | RDGENG::WILLIAMS_A | | Tue Apr 01 1997 05:36 | 8 |
| buy a new mouse from your local store.
expense it
get on with your job
...jeez....
|
| 5218.3 | The Last Reply Misses The Point | POWDML::HUNTER | | Tue Apr 01 1997 09:14 | 21 |
| The author of the last reply to this misses the point - if this sort
of thing is happening to us inside folks it must be happening to our
customers.
Consider - my laptop (which I need to access SWB from home) went in
for repair in early February. I got it back a month later however I
firmly believe it would still be in the system if I hadn't made about
a hundred phone calls. All I got was "it's not my problem" and lots
of fingerpointing from the TWO groups (MCS and the outside repair
contractor) as to who was holding it up.
Post-mortem comments from all concerned would indicate that they all
believe one month turn-around for something I (and presumably other
customers in the same situation) need on a daily basis to my job is
acceptable.
Someone needs to wake up and smell the competition.
|
| 5218.4 | | ACISS1::BATTIS | Soapbox NCAA ex-champion | Tue Apr 01 1997 09:47 | 4 |
|
Do you honestly think you need to make BP aware of every little problem
in this company? Buy a mouse at Best Buy or whatever store is near you,
and get on with your life.
|
| 5218.5 | when small things grow into big things... | CSC32::C_BENNETT | | Tue Apr 01 1997 11:03 | 21 |
| .4 Do you honestly think you need to make BP aware of every little
.4 problem in this company? Buy a mouse at Best Buy or whatever store
.4 is near you, and get on with your life.
I don't believe .0 was concerned with the actual mouse itself but the
breakdown in the overall delivery mechanism. I have seen this alot
myself - granted the mouse issue by itself is small picken's.
The larger issue I believe we need to consider and address is that
there is a perception that Digital (and possibly its VARS?) is/are
hard-to-do-business-with.
Realize that one order mix up probably doesn't mean much to the
profit and loss statement, but 50,000 orders AND the general
perception that Digital is overpriced and hard to deal with
WILL EFFECT THE P/L. So - I believe Bob and marketing/sales
should sweat the small things BEFORE THEY BECOME BIG things.
A customer lost is a customer who doesn't buy from us AND
is probably not our best word of mouth advertiser. 50,000
lost customers could put this company into the dumpster.
|
| 5218.6 | Like talk, mice are cheap. | JOBURG::HARRIS | | Tue Apr 01 1997 11:37 | 19 |
| RE .5 & .3 Thankyou.
Correct!
In South Africa we lost a large deal to Tandem. - 8 turbolasers plus
future business out of the window (And these machines were already
Installed!!!!!)
The decnumber referenced in note .0 is similar to the the deal we lost
- Just on M$10. So yes I am getting on with my life and my job ....but
it is principle. The point was we cannot manage ourselves, how are we
doing it with our Client..
As far as mice go, there cheap, just like talk.
Ivan
|
| 5218.7 | cut to the chase... | CSC32::C_BENNETT | | Tue Apr 01 1997 12:17 | 13 |
| .6 The point was we cannot manage ourselves, how are we
.6 doing it with our Client..
OUR SELF IMAGE IS EVERYTHING. If we convince ourselves that
"we cannot manage ourselves" - we may very well insure that
this becomes true. We need a positive self image to climb
into profitability and make customers happy with Digital.
We CAN manage our business and we CAN make doing business with
Digital easier. We do this by investing in easy to use delivery
mechanisms which insure the product gets to the customer in a
timely fashion. Now - who in Digital is empowered to oversee
this and what progress are they making?
|
| 5218.8 | ? ! | RDGENG::WILLIAMS_A | | Tue Apr 01 1997 17:24 | 22 |
| .6
sorry to hear about Tandem stuffing you in SA. trust that you punted a
mail to BP about that too ?
there is no-one more conscious about how 'broken' some of our internal
junk is right now than myself. But I'm not sure that punting
mails/notes to BP about how you are unable to work for 3 (?) weeks due
to you being mouseless helps the general cause. Hence the (well-meant)
advice re buying your own, and getting on with your job.
.3 I got the point in.0 Did you get the point of .2 ?
.7 'positive self image' - I use a big yellow Microsoft Easyball on my
PC at work. Reliable as hell. I recommend to all customers.
GUYS/GALS - GO, SELL. Your Country needs you (if you are stuck for a
mouse, get a big yellow Easyball)
Now, can we (all) get to work please.
|
| 5218.9 | | MAASUP::MUDGETT | We Need Dinozord Power NOW! | Tue Apr 01 1997 17:48 | 13 |
| So is this the end of no-excuses management? Debilitatingly slow and
basically useless exchange mail, salespeople (the pitiful few that are
left) not getting paid because of a broken commission tracking system
and a serious sales being lost for trivial reasons all being blamed on
the messenger? Customers notice all this stuff (for some odd reason
they even know about the sales commission mess) and they vote with
their feet!
My opinion? Don't get down on the guy who wants a mouse. Its an
indicator of larger problems.
Fred
|
| 5218.10 | Dear basenoter, please don't bother BP | PERFOM::HENNING | | Tue Apr 01 1997 18:29 | 9 |
| It's not that we're down on the guy who wants a mouse.
It's that we'd like to save BP for the things that ONLY he can fix.
Broken mice are fixable by stopping at the convenience store on the way
home and buying a mouse along with your loaf of bread.
Fix the things that you can fix.
Especially fix the things that ONLY you can fix.
Save BP for the things that only he can fix.
|
| 5218.11 | Fantasyland! | MSDOA::MCLEOD | | Tue Apr 01 1997 20:24 | 7 |
| Get a life is right! I suggest all you knuckle-heads visit your
nearest video tape store and rent the movie "Major League". This, I
hope will enlighten you as to what the team wants and what the
management wants, but in our case, the management will win in the
end, not the team.
|
| 5218.12 | Stop looking at symptoms - look at causes | PTOJJD::DANZAK | Pittsburgher � | Wed Apr 02 1997 00:19 | 62 |
| What makes you think that we have management?
(As my EXCHANGE window pops up and said:
22:57:00 Error synchronizing folder
22:57:00 [8004011D-524-0-0]
22:57:00 The Microsoft Exchange Server computer is not available.
Either there are network problems or the Microsoft Exchange Server
computer is down for maintenance.
22:57:00 Microsoft Exchange Server Information Store
22:57:00 Done
)
After all, 99% quality means only two fatal crashes a day at O'Hare
Airport.
Digital has killed itself for years on 'get it done'. People getting
it done have broken the company. They broke it because enough folks
didn't say "I'm sorry my mouse is broken so the RFP isn't done."
Somehow, the RFP always got done, and we taught management that when
they said that we needed something - it was really only a joke - just
ignore it long enough and it will get done.
It wasn't a deliberate plot or anything - because the reporting systems
weren't in place to report anything meaningful anyway.
I keep saying that the folks way up there won't realize that the dance
is over until the money runs out.
Until we learn that getting all the 'little things' right
systematically are what makes or breaks companies in the 90s, we'll be
doing catchup and overextending folks. Little things include:
- Complete firmware, revisions, kits, etc., with all of our
hardware products
- Easy to use/read manuals
- Ease of doing business, one stop shopping, quick phone calls,
contacts and completing what the CUSTOMER wants on the CUSTOMER
terms
- Being able to accurately tell where we're profitable, where
we're not and REALLY understanding why
- Being able to FIX the above
- Realizing that building great products is industrial strength
stupid UNLESS it does what the customer wants or we can get
the customer to really want it
- Understanding that people are the most important asset of the
company
- Figuring out that people working at different levels could
round out our organizing - yes we DO need a lot more
people 'middleware' with a growth path in Digital
We're micromanaged on macrofinancials with no support organizational
infrastructure. People make global business decisions in Digital on
financial summaries with no clue as to what generated the numbers.
"Whatever it takes" is a good attitude in terms of customer service. In
terms of an organizational style it makes an awful way to do business.
We'd do a lot better if more people understood that .0 was a comment
about the REAL CAUSE of our problems - not about the problem itself.
|
| 5218.13 | movies are fantasy-Digital is real... | CSC32::C_BENNETT | | Wed Apr 02 1997 11:10 | 13 |
| .11 Get a life is right! I suggest all you knuckle-heads visit your
.11 nearest video tape store and rent the movie "Major League". This,
.11 I hope will enlighten you as to what the team wants and what the
.11 management wants, but in our case, the management will win in the
.11 end, not the team.
This knuckle-head doesn't own a VCR nor do I want to own a VCR so
renting a senseless video to attempt to learn how "Major League"
applies to Digital is not an option - besides what's the point -
Digital is a unqiue corporation and to compare it to a movie is dumb
and serves no purpose.
So .11 what is your next cut down?
|
| 5218.14 | Digital Needs More knuckleheads | POWDML::HUNTER | | Wed Apr 02 1997 13:26 | 20 |
| If making waves in an effort to either fix some of the many things that
are broken within this company (and that I can't fix myself) or bring
them to management's attention justifies calling me a knucklehead, then
I'm proud to wear the label.
I've worked for Digital for nearly 30 years, in many parts of the globe,
and I have to say I enjoy it as much now as when I first started. However
I must also say I have never seen so many "little" things broken - things
that inhibit productivity, reduce morale or make us look bad in the eyes
of the customer and therefore negatively impact business.
Maybe more people should have drawn attention to these issues, or pushed
back when some of the more insane systems were foisted on us (e.g. the
previously mentioned process for getting a laptop repaired, or TMS - it
takes me AT LEAST a day to do expenses when I get back from a trip to
Asia.)
Let's hear it for the knuckleheads - we may be the only agents of
change left.
|
| 5218.15 | | SYOMV::FOLEY | Instant Gratification takes too long | Wed Apr 02 1997 13:38 | 11 |
| Two comments -
Getting a new mouse for a contract/warranty system should be one phone
call, a new one should be in the mail that day. That should NOT be a
problem. (keyboards too). If it is, then we have bigger problems to
fix.
When the 'Beancounters' took over the company, I made the 'assumption'
that they were good at counting beans. I have since changed my mind.
.mike.
|
| 5218.17 | | COOKIE::FROEHLIN | VMS...riding into the setting sun! | Wed Apr 02 1997 13:46 | 12 |
| .2> buy a new mouse from your local store.
Replace it with:
"buy a new <system> from <not-DIGITAL>."
and you get closer to why revenue is dropping. Customers have realized
this DIGITAL attitude. The fact that our CEO wears top-class suites
doesn't fake the customer into believe that DIGITAL is a first-in-classs
player in the computer market. Even Tandem can beat us now :-(.
Guenther
|
| 5218.18 | | CSC32::C_BENNETT | | Wed Apr 02 1997 13:47 | 17 |
| .15 Getting a new mouse for a contract/warranty system should be one
.15 phone call, a new one should be in the mail that day. That should NOT
.15 be a problem. (keyboards too). If it is, then we have bigger problems to
.15 fix.
Lets get something fixed?
Who is the manager for this service delivery mechanism? .0 Elevate
this issue and let THEM know there is an issue that needs to be ironed
out. I RECCOMEND THIS BECAUSE - any more discussuion in this
conference WITHOUT involving them is non-productive. Give them a
chance to remedy/repair process...
It could very well be that they don't even have a clue that 'something
is broken' and will never learn this unless engaged.
|
| 5218.19 | CRU, works in the States... | SYOMV::FOLEY | Instant Gratification takes too long | Wed Apr 02 1997 14:01 | 6 |
| In the US anyway, this is called the "CRU" (Customer Replaceable Unit)
process, and it works very well .most. of the time.
They usually don't even want a keyboard or mouse back.
.mike.
|
| 5218.20 | Also curious about service delivery | CSC32::D_CAMPBELL | | Wed Apr 02 1997 14:02 | 5 |
|
As a member of MCS, I also find myself curious.
Dennis
|
| 5218.21 | Outsourcing??? | SWAM1::SUKOVICH_RO | | Wed Apr 02 1997 14:10 | 35 |
|
As a Field Servant I have noticed my local managements "outsourcing"
of many of our core competencies, such as fixing computer equipment.
If you noticed the base note talked about a problem with a
subcontractor. We outsource our printer repairs, we outsource our
logistics service (parts), we outsource the repair of our environmental
products. This reduces technical headcount and increases the number of
managers required to manage the sub-k's. They say it's cheaper,....
well no doubt it is,.....FOR A REASON STUPID! As a result of this
many of my customers have suffered *&^iss poor service and canceled
their contract for whatever piece of outsourced equipment was involved.
When you outsource you loose control of quality since you are not in
direct control of the service delivery. They have decided to outsource
our installation planning to a company who has no technical competency
in this area. Result: I do it myself for my customers.
When my customer pays me for maintaining a product they have a very
simple expectation:
When they experience a problem and log a call I respond with technical
expertise as required to resolve their problem. All to often customers
recieve excuses for missed committments, no parts, no expertise etc..
Leaving them with the very taste in their mouth that was described in
the base note.
I would speculate that very few in the management structure under which
I exist know much about servicing computers. I don't quite
understand what their expertise is. They appear to be neither visionary
nor motivating. They don't appear to understand anything but cutting costs
at any expense.
sigh;...
Bob
|
| 5218.22 | Digital 3-button PS/2 mouse: $49.00! | STAR::JACOBI | Paul A. Jacobi - OpenVMS Development | Wed Apr 02 1997 14:13 | 38 |
|
VTX list the price for "30-46117-02 MOUSE, 3 BUTTON PS/2" as $49.00.
You'll find an equivalent available immediately at a substantially
cheaper price at your local computer store. VTX also lists similarly
ridiculous prices on memory SIMMs that you'll find much cheaper at a
local computer store.
Why are product available cheaper and faster though a local store than
through our internal ordering mechanisms? This seems to indicate that
something is fundamentally wrong with the way we are doing business,
which needs the attention of Mr. Palmer.
-Paul
TM U.S. Price List
digital OPTION Prices as of: 2-APR-1997
30-46117-02 MOUSE, 3 BUTTON PS/2
- Detailed Description - - Not Available -
USCLP 49.00 List Price
SLP1S N/A Standard Price
BMC N/A Basic Monthly Charge
DSMC N/A DECservice Maintenance Charge
CMC N/A Carry-In Monthly Charge
Inst N/A Installation Charge
RCAL N/A Recover All Charge
SWLC A Software License Code
EU N End User Discount
BU A Business Partner Discount
Page 1 of 1
|
| 5218.23 | | QUARK::LIONEL | Free advice is worth every cent | Wed Apr 02 1997 14:42 | 5 |
| Actually, $49 is about what a Logitech 3-button mouse costs in the stores -
Digital mice are generally Logitech. We charge more than commodity prices
for memory because we do extra qualification steps.
Steve
|
| 5218.24 | | MKOTS3::JOLLIMORE | OneWhiteDuck/0^10=NothingAtAll | Wed Apr 02 1997 14:51 | 4 |
| 30-36117-02 is a Logitech mouse. It is priced the same as its
parent SN-PCXLN-AD, which is an active option in DSPS.
Jay
|
| 5218.25 | Re: .21 | CSC32::D_CAMPBELL | | Wed Apr 02 1997 15:29 | 17 |
|
re .21
I understand your point of view. But do you and your customer
understand that they are paying for hardware maintenance, not
your "technical expertise". They made the decision, when they
started going to the lowest bidder for services. We have to
compete with what the service industry is offering.
Yes, there are problems. But we need to make a separation
between customers who want our technical expertise and are willing
to pay for it, and the customers who want our expertise and are
NOT willing to pay for it.
IMHO
Dennis
|
| 5218.26 | | BUSY::SLAB | Don't drink the (toilet) water | Wed Apr 02 1997 15:42 | 13 |
|
RE: .25
The customer doesn't choose our subcontractors, and as far as I
know doesn't even know who they are at the time of purchase of
the equipment. So why would you expect that the customers know
who will be fixing their equipment?
Regardless, wouldn't it make sense for us to choose contractors
who can support us and our customers satisfactorily? Or is the
entire process of subcontractor selection now a matter of "Who
will provide the service [snort!] for the least amount of money?"?
|
| 5218.27 | Agreed | CSC32::D_CAMPBELL | | Wed Apr 02 1997 15:53 | 3 |
|
I agree, our chosen subk's should live up to our quality stds.
|
| 5218.28 | Not commodities, solution!!!!!!! | SWAM1::SUKOVICH_RO | | Wed Apr 02 1997 16:46 | 15 |
|
I (and my customer) think they have purchased a solution to their
computing needs. BTW if I (DIGITAL) can't deliver TANDEM or HITACHI
or IBM etc etc will and have at this site. The components or this
solution and it's delivery must be seemless and transparent to the
customer. What chaps my hide is that, individuals (in this case
managers) who have no knowledge about the item they are purchasing,
purchase commodities, in this case service albeit substandard in
my experience with the subs I have seen in my own area.
again; sigh
Bob
|
| 5218.29 | Hmmmmmm..... | MSDOA::MCLEOD | | Wed Apr 02 1997 19:24 | 4 |
| re. 13
Don't get out much do you?
|
| 5218.30 | Please tell us this was a witticism! | WRKSYS::TATOSIAN | The Compleat Tangler | Wed Apr 02 1997 22:07 | 8 |
| re: .23
>We charge more than commodity prices for memory because we do extra
>qualification steps.
AAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Good'un, Steve...
|
| 5218.31 | Qualified corporate memory | 60675::BAKER | at home, he's a tourist | Wed Apr 02 1997 22:36 | 46 |
| Yeah,
I'd like to know what "extra qualification" means as well.
"Oh look, some SIMMS"
"Yep, there SIMMS alright"
"Do they have the right number of Pins?"
"Yep, they have the right number of Pins"
"Thank heavens for that, I was worried they might have short changed us"
"What colour were they again?"
"Black, but the pins are gold"
"Is that normal?"
"I think so, but I'll just get an outside consultant in to find out, we
retrenched someone who knew all about this stuff just last week, I'm
sure he could do with the work"
'Yes, probably a good thing to do, I've got all this qualification
paperwork to fill out, and I have to calculate the standard markup
based on the contribution margin the corporation says it needs to be
successful in this business"
"The guy says he can qual the SIMMS for us, at $1500 a day"
"better pay it, the process says we have to qualify the SIMMS, whatever
that means"
"great news, I've finished the paperwork and we have our new price,
$258.67 a SIMM."
"BTW, what is Sun charging for this thingy?"
"Its a SIMM, Steve, and I dont know"
"I just checked, they charge $85, but you can get them on the street
for $69"
"Ah yes, but theirs arnt QUALIFIED like ours are."
"Heaven knows how they can be making a profit at that price? SuN must be
living with the cloth out of their pants, selling unqualified SIMMS and
all"
"Yeah, must be tough over their at Sun these days"
"Yeah, they've got a lot to learn"
"BTW, did the contractor say what qualifying SIMMS is all about?"
"said something about making sure that they were all the right colour
and had the correct number of pins"
"Oh, so we were on the right track, then?
"apparently, he mumbled something about making sure that the black
things actually were attached to the bit with the pins as well."
"I wouldnt have got that, Steve"
"neither would I, that why we invested all this money in an expert"
"That's the Digital difference"
"Yes, whatever it takes"
"the network is the system, network, something or other..."
"do wah diddy diddy dum diddy dum..."
|
| 5218.32 | must be them fancy part numbers too | hndymn.zko.dec.com::MCCARTHY | A Quinn Martin Production | Thu Apr 03 1997 06:57 | 19 |
| >We charge more than commodity prices for memory because we do extra
>qualification steps.
I always thought the extra cost was the effort it took to come up with a
part number and catalog it in our price list.
www.pricewatch.com (I think that is right) lists computer items in least->most
price order. This one graphics card I was looking for a while back started
at $179 and went all the way up to over $400.00 - guess who had the high
price (but it had a really nice part number next to it). ITS THE SAME DAMN
CARD !
If I take the fact that I find Digital selling the same thing that I am
looking for - I should say "Thanks for doing all that qualification for me"
and then buy it mail order and save myself $200+ dollars.
It gets me depressed.
bjm
|
| 5218.33 | been there, done that | CSC32::D_CAMPBELL | | Thu Apr 03 1997 09:12 | 5 |
|
Used to see that when I was in the car audio business. Customer
comes in, asks a million and one questions, says thank you.
Goes to Lechmere and buys product. See many mon & pop shops, lately?
|
| 5218.34 | | WRKSYS::mccasa.eng.pko.dec.com::DUTTON | There once was a note, pure and easy... | Thu Apr 03 1997 11:58 | 17 |
| re: .31
I'm not normally one to make any defense of our memory pricing,
but I consider your comments in .31 somewhat of a cheap shot.
Extra qualification means demonstrating that the SIMM vendor actually
*meets* the specifications listed in their data sheets. From past
experience we know that more than one vendor ships SIMMS that are
*way* outside spec'd parameters. High performance designs rely on
vendors actually delivering parts that meet those specs. Spend a
little time in a qual lab, and you'll know how important the work
these people do actually is.
With that said, I agree that the price adder we put on such "qualified"
memory is way out to lunch...
|
| 5218.35 | It's Not Just SIMMs | NCMAIL::YANUSC | | Thu Apr 03 1997 12:28 | 17 |
| RE: .34
It isn't just our memory prices. It's our disks (which do also involve
additional work specifically for Digital, but not to justify the uplift
we put on), our printers, our monitors, and so forth. It doesn't take
too many occurrances before a customer or customers say "f*&% it, don't
waste anymore time with 'em." If you want to play with the big boys,
if you want to compete in a commodity business, learn the rules. In
business nowadays, being the high-priced player without a perceived
difference (at least one that the CUSTOMERS, and not Digital, feel is
worthwhile), is a presciption for failure.
Get the pricing models right, or be content with an ever-shrinking pie
of the pie. And don't budget as if your businesses will grow
exponentially - they won't!
Chuck
|
| 5218.36 | RE: .34 | BUSY::SLAB | Foreplay? What's that? | Thu Apr 03 1997 12:28 | 7 |
|
So you're saying that we're the only company that does this qual-
ification process on these parts?
Or are you saying that we're the only company that charges an arm
and a leg for the service?
|
| 5218.37 | | QUARK::LIONEL | Free advice is worth every cent | Thu Apr 03 1997 12:39 | 13 |
| I have seen first-hand the effects of memory SIMMs that don't meet specs. It's
not pretty.
Memory, disks, etc. bought from system vendors is always more expensive than
buying on the commodity market. You decide if it's worth the risk - if you
buy vendor-qualified products, you can complain to the system vendor when
it doesn't work.
I agree that we seem to price memory high, which is why I didn't buy
"Digital" memory when expanding my personally-owned Digital PC. But I did
make sure I bought a "name brand".
Steve
|
| 5218.38 | Qual is useful, but at a reasonable price | STAR::COPE | | Thu Apr 03 1997 13:52 | 10 |
| And for high-end systems, I know I've seen problem reports where
commodity disks, memory, etc. fail, simply because the company
that makes the component has never run them under the kind
of loads a 500 MHz Alpha system can place on them.
Like others, I support testing by Digital, in real systems under real
load, for components our service groups will have to deal with later.
I don't support using it as an excuse for a ridiculous markup. Ridicule
the guys who set the prices, not the ones who do the qualification.
|
| 5218.39 | Charge the qual price on the box, not the simm!! | NETCAD::GENOVA | | Thu Apr 03 1997 14:14 | 37 |
|
rep .31
I agree that we charge too much for our memory prices.
I left the Alpha Personal Systems Qualification group approximately
2 years ago. I did many a memory system qualification. We had to
check that all of the vendors and the memories that we wanted to sell
passed all of the tests that were in the qualification. This included
memory test (walking 1's, address checks, etc). And the memory had
to pass in strife testing. We also did some mixing of simms, and if
a problem was encounter, advised not to mix vendor x, with vendor y.
But all this aside. I had several discussions with Dave Laurello,
former head of APS engineering, and I tried to discuss this with
Philipe Ribere (sp), VP of APS, that if our memory qualification was
in fact more inclusive than our vendors, that in fact we had a value
added for our testing, that we should get the value added price on the
front end, that is, on the total system price, on the box, in other
words, not on the n, and n+1 simm. It makes no sense to me to try and
nickle and dime potential customers for a commodity.
They will do what a previous note suggested, find out which simms are
"qualified" and then buy them from an external to DEC source.
But if we charged $X extra for the box amorized over x thousand of
boxes per year, then we would be guaranteed our money for the
qualification testing up front. Or if the boxes can't command the xtra
value, then we would fold the game in short order.
Instead of pricing our simms, 2-3-4x what our competitors sell the
same, unqualified simm for.
But what do I know, I was only on the front lines for 3+ frustrating
years!
/art
|
| 5218.40 | 3x markup on commodity components | STAR::JACOBI | Paul A. Jacobi - OpenVMS Development | Thu Apr 03 1997 14:21 | 24 |
|
I stopped at CompUSA, Nashua, and found the following two PS/2 mice
which are substantially cheaper than the $49.00 price from Digital.
One of the mice is made by Logitech, nearly identical to the Digital
part number, but at 1/3 of the Digital price! CompUSA has many more
colors and style to choose from, including IR and radio controlled
mice.
The price difference seems to indicate that something is fundamentally
wrong with the pricing of commodity components.
-Paul
Digital
Employee
SKU Description Regular Discount
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
119574 Logitech 2-button PS/2 mouse $24.96 $16.49
131733 Generic 3-button PS/2 mouse $9.99 $3.78
The Logitech 3-button PS/2 mouse was not in stock, however, the a 2-button
mouse is standard for PC work.
|
| 5218.41 | | WRKSYS::mccasa.eng.pko.dec.com::DUTTON | There once was a note, pure and easy... | Thu Apr 03 1997 14:21 | 15 |
| re: .36
> So you're saying that we're the only company that does this qual-
> ification process on these parts?
No. I never even suggested that in .34. Read it again.
> Or are you saying that we're the only company that charges an arm
> and a leg for the service?
>
No. I didn't say that either. What I DID say was that one shouldn't slam the
qual people -- they perform an important service. What I DID say was that I
couldn't justify the cost adder that we try to charge for that service.
|
| 5218.42 | | PADC::KOLLING | Karen | Thu Apr 03 1997 14:46 | 6 |
| Re: .40
It's been awhile, but a few years back at least, Digital mice
were made by Logitech, after a number of years of that hockey puck
mouse nonsense.
|
| 5218.43 | | STAR::KLEINSORGE | Fred Kleinsorge, OpenVMS Engineering | Thu Apr 03 1997 16:10 | 5 |
|
A number of vendors have made the various mice we've used in the past,
among them Logitech.
|
| 5218.44 | | QUARK::LIONEL | Free advice is worth every cent | Thu Apr 03 1997 17:09 | 4 |
| Logitech makes various "grades" of mice. The three-button Logitech MouseMan
which is my favorite is around $49.
Steve
|
| 5218.45 | | 60675::nessus.cao.dec.com::Mayne | A wretched hive of scum and villainy | Thu Apr 03 1997 17:25 | 5 |
| Re .31:
And I thought half of Pete and Dud was dead. 8-)
PJDM
|
| 5218.46 | | 60675::BAKER | at home, he's a tourist | Thu Apr 03 1997 19:59 | 82 |
| r.e comments on .31,
Yes, it was a cheap shot, and an easy one to take. I tried lightly to
question the way we do things. Note .0 is also trying to use a basic
example to pinpoint some fundamental issues about how we all do
business. It also highlighted our "whatever it takes" attitude is
really "whatever it takes but dont fix the real process that's needed".
We have a company held together by baling wire and a culture that
delights in it.
The reason it was a cheap shot on my part is that there possibly
should be NO qualification process. Or perhaps not as expensive one as
undertaken given that the market can tolerate a certain amount of failure.
This is not to detract from the fine work that "product qualifiers" do.
For some customers, no end of reliability certification is enough.
That's also why that same niche pays for fault tolerant systems and
24*7 field callout etc. However, should we be marking up for the
possibly greater majority of customers that just shrug when a SIMM fails
because of their ready availability?
Perhaps an alternative solution for larger end systems would be to
account for statistical failure and ship extra memory or make sure that
installation engineers have ready stock at hand for duds. There are
many ways that this kind of thing can be tackled, rigorous
qualification is but one of them.
We should have firm and reasonable working relationships with multiple
SIMM suppliers. We set the expectation on the parts we buy, they
deliver. If they dont deliver, we work with them to fix the problem or
we change SIMM makers. If we require extra quality, the produce it
where its cheapest to do so, in manufacture. If we had adequate processes
for defect tracking this issue would be a no-brainer.
This is a commodity market. Dud memory is a bad thing, agreed. However,
perhaps the market has an expectation of a level of return on faulty
memory. Have we ever asked our customers what they expect in terms of the
components within our products? It is fairly evident the only sensible
processes we have for guaging any customer feedback are the sales
figures on items at the end of each quarter. This is NOT good enough
but it is certainly telling us we are adding value by things like
qualification that the customer may not perceive is needed.
In addition to the problems stated in .0, which actually relates to the
ability of Digital to understand the needs of its customer, which was to be
able to carry on their job as soon as a system problem (the mouse
failing) occured. In the SIMM case, the issue may well be more one of
having sensible contingency for parts failure while being cost
effective to the customer, rather than a reliability at all costs
mentality. A company that cared for its customer needs and understood
the place of its equipment in the day to day working existance of those
customers would not make them wait over 2 months for printer
consumables (another note in this notefile).
In the PC space we consistently win the reliability surveys here. It
was a positive selling point for a good while. On large sales the
cheaper less qualified vendors started bundling in some extra systems
to account for contingency when some failed. This may not satisfy
everyone, those people will pay the premium we charge. But it allowed
them to meet the concerns of a greater group of prospects than just the
very cheap junk buyers. One of the differences is that I cant ring anyone
up and get a marketing brochure that describes the salient points of our
extra qualification process, the PC group positively sold it in full page
print ads. My ignorance of the actual, rigorous process in .31 is due to
the fact it really isnt a salable feature to the vast majority of people.
Certainly not salable enough that I can get sales collateral for it.
We need to seriously question all the ways we carry out our business.
We have absolutely no guage or meter on what our customers will readily
accept. We do know, however, that line by line scrutiny of every item on a
quotation is the norm and wild variation due to nebulous, invisble
single words such as "qualification", dont (always) cut it.
I'm not saying get rid of qualification. I'm saying that we should look
at ALL aspects of how we do things to see if their are different ways
which may pay dividends. Although we have been through downsizing and a
lot of change, its amazing how little things have actually changed in
many parts of the company. We need to question everything we do.
- John
|
| 5218.47 | The rodent arrived today. (I bought a mouse yesterday!) | JOBURG::HARRIS | | Thu Apr 03 1997 21:03 | 1 |
|
|
| 5218.48 | When right is not right. | JOBURG::HARRIS | | Thu Apr 03 1997 21:13 | 192 |
| Just for the record, See below my attemp to get info from
Helpdesk,
Services manager Local
Resource manager national
Services manager national
R
Ivan
I N T E R O F F I C E M E M O R A N D U M
Date: 23-Mar-1997 19:37 ZAS
From: Ivan Harris
HARRIS.IVAN
Dept: RSA-MCS-Technical Support
Tel No: *2721 4408356 Auto forw
TO: Remote Addressee ( [email protected]@internet )
CC: Allan Johns ( ALLAN JOHNS )
CC: Daniel Collet ( COLLET.DANIEL )
Subject: UUA: This is unaceptable
Hello KC,
RE: UUA: This is unaceptable
No action from TEAM DIGITAL
Call logged on Friday: 14-Mar-1997 09:04 (10 Days!!!!!!)
Escalated to Call desk, Jurie, Brian; each in turn. I have not even
received a telephone call.
What can you do for me? One mail to MCS Manager, for him to ensure:
1. Call gets done (this was indicated as SEV 2)
2. This hiccup in our communication is sorted out.
I do not need explantions from MCS, only for the task to be performed.
Impact: I am not able to produce tasks for Vodacom Project without
using someone elses Desktop system.
Thanks
With Regards
Ivan
I N T E R O F F I C E M E M O R A N D U M
Date: 19-Mar-1997 09:15 ZAS
From: Ivan Harris
HARRIS.IVAN
Dept: RSA-MCS-Technical Support
Tel No: *2721 4408356 Auto forw
TO: Ivan Harris ( HARRIS.IVAN )
Subject: FWD: PLEASE SEND CALL LOG
9703151
I N T E R O F F I C E M E M O R A N D U M
Date: 19-Mar-1997 09:11 ZAS
From: Ivan Harris
HARRIS.IVAN
Dept: RSA-MCS-Technical Support
Tel No: *2721 4408356 Auto forw
TO: Brian Jakubec ( BRIAN JAKUBEC )
CC: Remote Addressee ( [email protected]@internet )
CC: Daniel Collet ( COLLET.DANIEL )
CC: Jurie van Rensburg ( JURIE VAN RENSBURG )
Subject: FWD: PLEASE SEND CALL LOG
Hello Brian,
No response on call logged. To call logged on Friday.
Brian, I need this call done this morning. I escalated this twice
already.
If required, I will bribe, Short of that I will pay myself to have the
nearest PC shop repair my PC.
PLEASE, this is totally unacceptable.
Ivan
I N T E R O F F I C E M E M O R A N D U M
Date: 17-Mar-1997 11:21 ZAS
From: Ivan Harris
HARRIS.IVAN
Dept: RSA-MCS-Technical Support
Tel No: *2721 4408356 Auto forw
TO: HELENA DE NIET ( HELENA DE NIET )
CC: HYNIE TREDOUX ( HYNIE TREDOUX )
Subject: PLEASE SEND CALL LOG
HI Helena,
Please send to me the log for the attached call.
Thanks
Ivan
I N T E R O F F I C E M E M O R A N D U M
Date: 17-Mar-1997 09:36 ZAS
From: Ivan Harris
HARRIS.IVAN
Dept: RSA-MCS-Technical Support
Tel No: *2721 4408356 Auto forw
TO: HYNIE TREDOUX ( HYNIE TREDOUX )
CC: Allan Johns ( ALLAN JOHNS )
CC: Brian Jakubec ( BRIAN JAKUBEC )
CC: Daniel Collet ( COLLET.DANIEL )
Subject: FWD: Please log a call
Hello Hynie,
RE: No response to critical call logged. Please see attached call.
The attached call was logged on Time now:14-Mar-1997 at 09:04
This call has not been attended to.
I noted the severity of this call and this is critical at this time of
the Vodacom Project.
Regards Ivan
I N T E R O F F I C E M E M O R A N D U M
Date: 14-Mar-1997 09:04 ZAS
From: Ivan Harris
HARRIS.IVAN
Dept: RSA-MCS-Technical Support
Tel No: *2721 4408356 Auto forw
TO: HELENA DE NIET ( HELENA DE NIET )
CC: HYNIE TREDOUX ( HYNIE TREDOUX )
Subject: Please log a call
Hello Helana,
Please log a call for me.
This is for
Client: Digital
Address: Water Club, Granger Bay, CPT
Contact: Ivan
SYSTEM : PC asset= D615
Fault : Mouse not Functioning. button faulty
SEVERITY LEVEL 1 (Down not able to produce)
Time now:14-Mar-1997 09:04 ZAS
Logistics -
PART Order
Please deliver the following parts to Digital Cape Town:
ATTENTION: Ivan Harris
LI BCH LOG-NUMBER PART CONSUM DESCRIPTION QTY DATE TY WHO CLIENT
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 CPT MCS97-...... -PC7XS-AA 2 button mouse 1 14/3/97 IWH DIGITAL
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| 5218.49 | | BUSY::SLAB | Grandchildren of the Damned | Thu Apr 03 1997 22:18 | 5 |
|
I'm not sure which is more ridiculous ... the fact that it took
three weeks to get a mouse shipped to you, or the fact that you
waited that long to buy your own.
|
| 5218.50 | | BBRDGE::LOVELL | � l'eau; c'est l'heure | Fri Apr 04 1997 03:28 | 4 |
| ... or the fact that the whole world is waiting for the next episode
of this saga as if it was something like Twin Peaks ...
|
| 5218.51 | technology plus... | BBPBV1::WALLACE | john wallace @ bbp. +44 860 675093 | Fri Apr 04 1997 04:55 | 24 |
| More on memory:
Do you use a PC? Do you use a modern PC with a relatively aggressive
memory subsystem ? Does it have "commodity" memory in it ?
Does it frequently misbehave at embarrassing moments ? Do you always
blame software? Is this safe - maybe you have slightly duff memory?
I know plenty of folks who've had "fun" with "spot market commodity
SIMMs". Kingston still exist, for a good reason. Compare their prices
with commodity prices and ask the same questions you ask of Digital.
My PCs at home have had "quality" memory rather than "spot market
commodity". When they misbehave, I *know* it's the software :-)
The other thing to note is that much of Digital's customer base still
lives in the "give us a quote" mentality. They want firm memory prices
committed for the next 3-6 months. Try getting that from commodity
vendors.
There are two sides to this discussion.
regards
john
|
| 5218.52 | Digital does not want to sell to me | hndymn.zko.dec.com::MCCARTHY | A Quinn Martin Production | Fri Apr 04 1997 08:10 | 17 |
| >> The other thing to note is that much of Digital's customer base still
>> lives in the "give us a quote" mentality.
AH! Light dawns. It all makes sense to me esp after a string in another
conference about "talking down" prices at computer shows.
If it is the case that our prices are setup to favor the "complete system" bids
(where they NEVER pay the actual list price) then Digital will never be a
vendor of choice for a mom/pop operation and any single part price I see
listed by Digital I know I can do better for the EXACT SAME unit somewhere
else.
It all makes sense but it also brings up the question of if Digital should
be pricing its products for mom/pop? I sure as hell can't figure out why
we shouldn't (money is money).
bjm
|
| 5218.53 | You don't really think.... | JOBURG::HARRIS | | Fri Apr 04 1997 12:58 | 10 |
| re.49
You don't really think I just sat around waiting.?
After ten minutes of the mouse breaking , I borrowed the mouse from the
file server..So life did carry on ..and so is the project.
Just because you asked - eight as8400's will be in by tuesday at
10:00am. If you're not doing anything for the weekend, why not pop over
and join us when we take a smoke-break. There's so much to talk about.
See you around
ivan
|
| 5218.54 | | BUSY::SLAB | A Parting Shot in the Dark | Fri Apr 04 1997 13:08 | 8 |
|
OK, just checking.
8^)
I'd join you for a smoke break, but Cape Town is a bit far for
me. 8^)
|
| 5218.55 | Mouse diversity | STAR::jacobi.zko.dec.com::jacobi | Paul A. Jacobi - OpenVMS Systems Group | Fri Apr 04 1997 14:12 | 17 |
|
Yes, Logitech makes various "grades" of mice, with MouseMan as the "deluxe"
model.
Part number 30-46117-02 most resembles the standard grade mouse, but at
Digital, it has the "deluxe" price!
VTX does list Part Number PC7XS-EB at a more reasonable price of $8.00.
I wonder if mice with a "workstation" part number are priced differently
than "PC" mice? This would make about as much sense as our strategy
of pricing Alpha chips depending on if there are sold with an OpenVMS/Unix
system VS. Windows NT system.
-Paul
|
| 5218.56 | We make a lot on each one, but we make it up in volume | WRKSYS::SCHUMANN | | Fri Apr 04 1997 17:18 | 4 |
| According to appix, our markup on that $49 mouse is over 1000%!
Too bad we can't get our customers to buy more of these mice!!??
--RS
|
| 5218.57 | Twin squeaks.. | RDGENG::WILLIAMS_A | | Sat Apr 05 1997 14:56 | 4 |
| Ivan,
what did you buy ? A big yellow Microsoft Easyball ? (I got a free
'Nature CD' from Microsoft too.. ;-)
|
| 5218.58 | I smelt a rat. | 53859::HARRIS | | Sat Apr 05 1997 15:04 | 22 |
| RE .54
In one of the previous notes someone mentions "Twin peaks" Well, the
exitement seems to be wearing thin now so why not get everyone going
again. .....and everyone thought the mouse was a big probelm.
Check this out....
I ask for resources for a project (M$7) 8 AS8400's and storageworks,
Gigaswitches etc.
I repeatedly send mails to confirm that the resources I request for the
hardware Installation of the equipment is ontrack.
Friday 10:00am arrives and I have 2 resources out of 4 requested
resources arrive. The 2 resources which do arrive are Junior engineers.
I smelt a rat.....
Ivan 8^))
|
| 5218.59 | Logitech Trackman Marble. | 53859::HARRIS | | Sat Apr 05 1997 15:10 | 15 |
| re .57
they only had green ones, No only joking, no stock.
They had mice for R18.00 ($9.00) but after having bought my own desk in
the office two years ago, and having borrowed the servers mouse, I
opted to just sort my own PC at home out... I ended up buying a
Logitech Trackman Marble. ....Quite a change....rather sensitive...will
take a bit of getting used to....I still find I try to push the thing
around occasionaly.
(R499.00 = =/- $250) pretty expensive in MADIBAland.
Cheers
Ivan
|
| 5218.60 | | KAOM25::WALL | DEC Is Digital | Mon Apr 07 1997 13:44 | 8 |
| re .34 (qualification experience)
Qualification is one thing, does the DIGITAL price also include a
sampling plan to verify the "component of the week" that the vendor
happens to use?
r
|
| 5218.61 | IEG pricing is broken! | 19584::jacobi.zko.dec.com::jacobi | Paul A. Jacobi - OpenVMS Systems Group | Mon Apr 07 1997 17:32 | 11 |
|
So even at 40% IEG discount, an item with 1000% markup is still a
ridiculous internal price! Why can't IEG price items strictly based on
true cost, plus a small percent? CompUSA seems to be able to keep tract of
true cost with the Digital employee discount program.
IMHO, this needs to be fixed!
-Paul
|
| 5218.62 | Workstation mouse <> PC Mouse | 42326::COURTNEYM | Norm's the name:Sensible the Game | Tue Apr 08 1997 08:51 | 9 |
| re: .55, Workstation and PC mice part numbers....
Weren't the 'Workstation' and 'PC' 3-button logitec mice that replaced
the 'Digital Standard' (round) Mouse PN: VSXXX-AA different electrically?
They were coloured differently, the PC ones had darker grey shading,
- presumably to help you not to plug in the wrong voltage mouse?
/Mark
|
| 5218.63 | | 19584::KLEINSORGE | Fred Kleinsorge, OpenVMS Engineering | Tue Apr 08 1997 09:55 | 13 |
| Digital has sold three basic types of mice. The first, and original
Hawley mouse was a quadrature mouse that connected to a decoder on the
QVSS board. We soon moved to a serial mouse. At the time, there were
a dozen or so mice producers, each with a slightly different data
format. We specified our own data format, power up signature, and
specifications to allow hot-swap, and to poll for ID. We changed to
the "standard" shape from the puck, due to price. We continued with
this mouse until the Jensen, at which time we switched to a "standard"
PS2 mouse.
This ignores anything we did with PC's, or the one DECstation which
shipped with the access bus.
|
| 5218.64 | | PADC::KOLLING | Karen | Tue Apr 08 1997 16:29 | 9 |
| Re: We changed to the "standard" shape from the puck, due to price.
We changed from the puck because the puck was very uncomfortable
for everyone except people with very large hands, and customers
complained in droves. It wasn't unusual to lose workstation sales
because of the puck. I know, I was involved in making this
mouse change happen, over the dead bodies of various prople in the
hierarchy.
|
| 5218.65 | the award-winning puck -- yuck. | SMURF::STRANGE | Steve Strange, UNIX Filesystems | Tue Apr 08 1997 16:37 | 11 |
| > over the dead bodies of various prople
Dead bodies with big hands, no doubt. :-)
Incidentally, I have big hands, but I didn't like the puck because its
radial symmetry made it difficult to orient by feel. You'd move the
pointer and it would move 15 or 20 degrees off from what you wanted,
then you'd look down, turn it so it was aligned properly, etc. It's
often the little things that matter most.
Steve
|
| 5218.66 | | 19584::KLEINSORGE | Fred Kleinsorge, OpenVMS Engineering | Wed Apr 09 1997 11:20 | 18 |
|
It may have been coincidental. Logitech offered to continue to make
the puck, but the price differential was quite high between the custom
shell, and their standard shell. At least that is what the engineering
group told me at the time.
Frankly, the mouse *was* a good design. It *was* tested on hands of
all sizes. There is *no* single shape that will make everyone happy.
Fortunately, we now use a "standard" mouse, so you can plug in anything
that floats your boat.
And BTW - I wasn't part of the design team. But had tested about every
piece of junk on the market at the time it was designed. All of them
sucked for my purpose - use in a drawing application. For the purpose
they *are* good at, I always preferred a really nice trackball.
|