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Conference 7.286::digital

Title:The Digital way of working
Moderator:QUARK::LIONELON
Created:Fri Feb 14 1986
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:5321
Total number of notes:139771

5170.0. "Looking for 36-bit migration expertise & tools" by RCOCER::MICKOL (I sell Alphas to IBM) Fri Mar 07 1997 01:45

A guy I worked with many years ago called me today and is looking for some 
software and consulting expertise to move applications from KS10 and SC40
(Systems Concepts 36-bit clone) systems running TOPS10 to AlphaServers.
The applications are written in MACRO-10, System 1022 and DEC FORTRAN.

I found a Digital Semiconductor Intranet web page talking about a KL10 
emulator. Anyone have any pointers to what our current capabilities are in 
this area? Thanks.

Jim Mickol
SBU Technical Support
Rochester, NY
716.436.2565

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5170.1??GIAMEM::NSULLIVANFri Mar 07 1997 09:083
    
    	He called the right guy already.
    
5170.2I turned out the lights on 10/20 FortranTLE::EKLUNDAlways smiling on the inside!Fri Mar 07 1997 14:5024
    	You might get a better response in TALLIS::TOPS which many
    of us old(?!) 36-bitters still follow.  While I have more than
    a small amount of interest/expertise in all three of the 
    things you mentioned, I would NOT recommend trying to use
    an emulator for such a situation.  You are talking about
    a database system(1022) which is VERY old (replaced by 1032
    many years ago) together with all its tools (a Fortran
    preprocessor and others) AND some assembly code thrown in
    for good measure.  Trying to move (and maintain) such a
    beast is almost unthinkable.
    
    	I'd encourage them to start over with a modern data
    base system rather than attempting to move the old one
    via emulation.  In the long run, this is the only sane
    thing to do - other than to just KEEP the KS10 or SC40
    running for as long as it meets their needs.  Heck, that's
    what I'd probably do.  When do they retire?!
    
    Cheers!
    Dave Eklund
    
    PS Can you tell us who the customer is (possibly off line)?
    Dave E
    
5170.3Sorry, I'm too young :-)MARVIN::CARLINIFri Mar 07 1997 16:044
    There's always XKL's TOAD-1, or is that the wrong Kx variant?
    
    Antonio
    
5170.4Mebbe CompUservePTOJJD::DANZAKPittsburgher �Sat Mar 08 1997 15:517
    CompUserve (at one time) was running on Foonleys...DEC-10 clones.  They
    still run a variant of TOPs, but I'm not sure what it's running on.
    
    (They never forgave us for that....we changed products and gave 'em no
    migration strategy...aarugh)
    j
    
5170.5some contact infoDECWET::TRESSELPat TresselMon Mar 10 1997 15:5942
Jim --

Although I have a special fondness for -10s (and System 1022 even), I agree
with Dave Eklund -- they should put their effort into porting their
applications.

That is, unless their current hardware is failing, and won't last that long. 
Then the emulator becomes more viable as a temporary measure.  Talk to Andy 
Riebs about it ([email protected], SOUSA::RIEBS, DTN 227-4044) for
full info, but the short story is:  DEC decided not to market it, and
it's been handed back to its orginator, Ken Harrenstien ([email protected])
for distribution.  It exists in both KS and KL variants.  A while back,
there was a machine up on DEC's internal network, running TOPS-10 on the
emulator, so I know it supports TOPS-10.

Although XKL's TOAD-10 is a KL surrogate, it should still be able to run
user-mode applications that are running on a KS -- only the operating system
would have to be replaced.  If the customer has a customized operating system,
that could be a problem.  XKL currently supports TOPS-20, and is now working
on supporting TOPS-10, so that may not be ready yet.  Also, the TOAD-1 would
be rather expensive unless they intended to keep running their current
application -- it probably wouldn't be cost-effective merely as a stopgap.

But back to porting the applications...  It sounds like they no longer have
anyone in-house who understands the innards of their applications.  Rather
than try to understand them in detail, what they might be better off doing
is to characterize what the applications *do*, then produce a new database
application that, from the outside, does what they want, then dump their
1022 data into a flat file, and reload it into the new application.
That would mean they'd "merely" need someone to help them extract the
data.  Is it allowed for me to suggest a third party?  The place I useta
work, the Locke Computer Center at the University of Washington,
decommissioned their -10 a couple of years ago, but their 1022 experts are
still there (now doing 1032, Ingres, etc.).  The person to contact would
be Gerard Pence ([email protected], (206)543-9275).

Re. reply .1 posted by GIAMEM::NSULLIVAN -- does "He called the right guy
already" mean that the customer contacted *someone else*, not mentioned,
or that *Jim* was the right person?  ;-)  I'm always interested in hearing
about other -10 fans out there...

-- Pat
5170.6RCOCER::MICKOLI sell Alphas to IBMTue Mar 11 1997 00:362
I think Neil is referring to my years as a -10 hacker (starting in 1972).

5170.7JTM ( Mr DEC10)GIAMEM::NSULLIVANTue Mar 11 1997 07:525
    
    	Jim has always been the "RIGHT" guy in my book.
    
    				Neil.