Conference 7.286::digital

    I think I win! I forwarded a mail message from our local VAX
    to my exchange account and it was sent 7-feb-97:12:10:00 and recieved
    12-feb-97:04:12:00. I can comfortably say I thought it was lost
    so it was a somewhat pleasent surprize when I saw it. 
    
    Fred

    re .64
    
    Check File-> Properties -> Headers -> to see the complete
    journey.

Yesterday afternoon my compatriot (in Florida) and I (Dallas) timed an Exchange
e-mail transaction at just under 3 minutes.  Just wanted to add another data
point.


ac

    Interestingly, it seems that with a message sent via exchange to an
    exchange user, you can't get at any headers tracing its route.
    
    FJP

    re: Note 4961.64 by 37303::MUDGETT
    
    Sorry Fred, I think I just beat you. I replied to a message last 
    Thursday @ 3:59 PM, and it wasn't received 'till this morning!
    
    Ken....

    Greetings numbers friends,
    
    Of course I checked and I already deleted the message! There was
    however message that I checked the headers on and it said that it
    was shipped out of the lab (where I'm on site) yesturday at like
    1:30pm and its header said that it got to alf (or wherever it resides)
    like 20 minutes later. I swear on my word as a boy scout 2nd class
    and ex-Marine I didn't see the file until this morning! I was looking
    for it all yesturday afternoon as I wanted the information for an
    excalation I'm involved with. So basically where the h was it all
    yesturday afternoon? 
    
    The only thing that could explain it was that the priority was set
    to normal.
    
    Fred
    

>>    Check File-> Properties -> Headers -> to see the complete

where are you seeing this, in the message you're reading?  when I go into

	File -> Properties

the only choices I see in the tabs are:
	
	General, Recipients, Message ID and Security

am I looking in the wrong place?

-mark

    re .67
     
     >Interestingly, it seems that with a message sent via exchange to an
     >exchange user, you can't get at any headers tracing its route.
    
    Properties -> General does show the sent and receive date.

    just a little nit on the time stamps.    The time is inserted in the
    memo from the clock setting on your PC.  So if your clock is off it
    will be reflected. I have some memo's that I recieved before they were
    sent.  Now that is response time!!!!!     Not sure how it works if you
    create the memo off line and then synch....   So check your pc settings

    I sent an e-mail to a sales rep. regarding a customer situation via
    Exchange on 2/7/97 12:31PM and she just received this morning. She
    called me on Monday 2/10 to complain that she had not received my
    mail. Meanwhile, I had to fax the mail document to her. This is not
    acceptable. 

I too had this problem.  I sent a proposal to be delivered to a customer 
on Friday afternoon (about 3:30 EST), 7-Feb-97, and it did not arrive.  I 
got a call Monday morning about it.  Too late, the customer VP and the 
sales rep had already left for a weekend function.  My counterpart in 
Minneapolis was going to try and fax it to them.

Since downsizing has forced us to become geographically disbursed (I used 
to just have to worry about Dayton, Cincinnati, Columbus and sometimes 
Indianapolis) we are having to cover larger territories.  Theoretically, I 
am supporting 11 states in the U.S. and all of Canada. Trustworthy e-mail 
is essencial to conduct business. 

It's getting to the point where I'm thinking of setting up a share on our 
NT server to dump stuff into.  I will then call people and tell them they 
have to copy it themselves.  

    
    I wonder if for the next quarter financial results where
    they usually blame, Europe, exchange rates ,the PCBU etc. it might just be
    'the transition to Exchange'.
    
    I think their is a typo in the Exchange name it should be...
    
    Exchange? 
    
    ALL-IN-1 & Office Server development and just saying 'told-u-so'
    
    Mike

    re: .74 -
    
    	Setting up a share is probably a better way to go regardless of any
    mail or Exchange problems.  The user can open up the doc over the
    network and print locally without copying it or populating Exchange
    disk space with the file.
    
    	Assuming no network problems, of course.
    
    	The gateways are getting hammered, this is what we are all feeling. 
    Someone mentioned this a bit ago, it appears to be getting worse.
    
    	Leo

The problem with doing shares is that there is no audit trail.

    	You can create a share that ends with a '$' so it cannot be seen
    with a browser and then tell people where to find it.  You're right, no
    audit trail.  If you need a secure share then you have to have one
    setup.  You need to evaluate the risk of doing it this way (shares,
    non-secured but hidden) and proceed accordingly.
    
    	Leo

    another data point ... the last 2 nites i've been logged in late
    (notice the time) and have forwarded stuff from VMSmail to my Exchange
    account.  4 different msgs, each took .LT. 1 minute.
    
    i just wish it didn't take a hairy pentium to get good response.  it
    kills my HiNote Ultra.

    You can do "shares" on Exchange.  And you get all the good stuff like
    network wide permissions, regular backups,  and audit trail and
    contents  based searching ....
    
    Have a look at the Exchange Public Folders feature. 
    
    You don't *HAVE* to send large documents through Exchange's message 
    transport - in fact the "share" model is a very efficient way of
    working for distributed teams with many/large shared documents.
    
    /Chris/

    Whyn do Exchange messages from the PKO Exchange server to a VAX in PKO
    route through a machine in MKO?
    

Re: .79

I can't use exchange shares because not everyone is on exchange.

The suggestion that we 'solve' the Exchange traffic problems
by having people avoid sending binary attachments also 
seriously impacts our ability to use the workgroup
functions in MS Exchange and the MS Office suite. For
example, you can use the electronic annotation
and mark-up features of MS Word to conduct electronic document
reviews etc., where the document is automatically routed 
through a group of reviewers and each reviewer can see
preceding comments. Similar functionality is available in
MS Project to automatically e-mail project team members
their specific task assignments as 'snippets' of a larger
schedule and automatically receive their task completion
statuses via e-mail.

This technique has been in use in my group for over 2 years, 
first using a workgroup-based MS Mail setup, and later using 
our own private MS Exchange server, separate from the corporate 
system and using SMTP to e-mail non-Exchange users and 
Exchange users on other Exchange systems. However, now
we've been migrated to the corporate Exchange system, and
it's becoming infeasible for the reasons cited here. This
problem will also impact any Exchange-based formflow/workflow
applications we develop that need to send sizeable attachments.

I've used Exchange since the Exchange v4.0 beta 1, and I think
it's a very impressive product. I don't have enough information
about DIGITAL's Exchange implementation to comment usefully,
and I'm certainly not an Exchange expert, but I can't help
wondering if what we're experiencing is a bad implemention
of a good product. The degradation of performance
and functionality experienced by my group since moving from
our private Exchange server to the corporate system is striking.

Grainne Ni Choiligh @ILO

So, if an exchange message goes out into the network 
and nobody sees it again,
Did it really happen?

re Note 4961.83 by XSTACY::imladris.ilo.dec.com::grainne:

> I can't help
> wondering if what we're experiencing is a bad implemention
> of a good product. The degradation of performance
> and functionality experienced by my group since moving from
> our private Exchange server to the corporate system is striking.
  
        It reminds me of the old days when ALL-IN-1 was selling in
        large numbers -- the experience within Digital on many of the
        internally-managed ALL-IN-1 systems was very poor and a
        constant source of complaints.

        Bob

> the experience within Digital on many of the internally-managed ALL-IN-1
> systems was very poor and a constant source of complaints.

It reminds me of how OpenVMS clusters were run in the days before the PC took
hold.  Most internal clusters were run such that workstations were not much more
than multi-session terminals.  People started getting PCs and saying "wow, look
what I can do now" when better functionality had been available for years on
OpenVMS clusters but not implemented.

Paul

> <<< Note 4961.75 by IOSG::BILSBOROUGH "SWBFS" >>>
> 
> I wonder if for the next quarter financial results where
> they usually blame, Europe, exchange rates ,the PCBU etc. it might just be
> 'the transition to Exchange'.

  They'll still blame it on "Exchange rates", only they'll mean
  something different than exchange rates between various currencies.

                                   Atlant

    I still fail to understand what this company thinks it is doing
    standardizing on someone else's proprietary mail system - especially
    one that has given so many problems and is so widely detested not only
    by DIGITAL employees but also by users and system admins out there in
    the real world who curse at it and have to come up with ways to make it
    play nice with other mailers.
    
    I wonder how big the riot will be when the people working in the UNIX
    segment of the SBU are told they have to switch over from TCP/IP mail,
    which works extremely well and can be used by any of dozens of
    different mailers on several different platforms, to Exchange, which is
    restricted to one mailer on only a very few platforms.
    
    What is DIGITAL going to do after we've all been forced to use Exchange
    and somebody suddenly discovers that although our customers are free to
    install and use ALL-IN-1 mail or VMS mail or any of the several TCP/IP
    mailers, we ourselves have forgotten how to make such products work on
    our own hardware?

    See the announcement for a DIGITAL voice-mail plug-in for Netscape
    on Live Wire? Runs today on Netscape Navigator, and will work
    later on Netscape Communicator and MS Explorer.
    
    Strange how there's no mention of support for Exchange...
    

    
    	Well, it sounds like it works on web browsers, yes?  Exchange isn't
    	a web browser.
    
    	Does it work on VMSMAIL?
    

RE: .88

	Dick,

	Exchange 5.0, which is in manufacturing now I believe, will
	support POP3 access to your email. There are plans to roll
	out Exchange 5.0 in the CCS organization. (I read that in
	the Exchange notesfile)

	With this support, you'll be able to get at your mail from
	whatever POP3 client you like. (Unix, VMS, PC, MAC)

	This is not to say that I don't agree with you on the
	issue of being married to one proprietary email server, but
	at least the rest of the world will have some level of support.

							mike

>	With this support, you'll be able to get at your mail from
>	whatever POP3 client you like. (Unix, VMS, PC, MAC)
>
>	This is not to say that I don't agree with you on the
>	issue of being married to one proprietary email server, but
>	at least the rest of the world will have some level of support.

    Just to let those who wish Office Server (aka ALL-IN-1) kept-up 
    with the times:  the next version which I am testing as I write 
    this has POP3 and I am reading ALL-IN-1 mail from Netscape.
    
    	dan

    I recently attended a talk by the worldwide product manager for
    Exchange. Beside the fact that the presentation looked to have been
    created by a 5 year old, the content was simply amazing. It did explain
    why Exchange is such a piece of junk. The whole process of developing
    Exchange was a series of mistakes and missed deadlines. Products like
    MS-MAIL were delivered because Exchange was so late. MS bought
    companies to fill in the gaps until Exchange was ready, so no migration
    path was in place, it was never planned for Exchange to support the
    numbers that we are using it for (or have sold to people like Lockheed
    and BT) and the list goes on. At the end of the presentation the
    audience (all Digits) seemed to have the common opinion that we had
    been sc*wed big time. Yet the MS person definitely gave the impression
    that Exchange was the greatest thing since sliced bread and weren't we
    all lucky to be "allowed" to have it as our mail system.
    
    Just more evidence of the MS machine at work to take over the world.
    
    Debbie
    

    I urgently need to know who the chief architect and implementor is/are
    for Digital's exchage roll out.  Any pointers are greatly appreciated
    
    thanks!

  That'd be Bill Gates. :-)

                                   Atlant

    That would be George Champine, yes he does customer visits and is
    refreshingly honest in his discussions.
    
    
    Possibly Stan Foster as well.
    
    http://rcwiii.ogo.dec.com/ 
    
    See "Who we are and What we do" section...
    
    FJP

    Up here in KAO, exchnage has been down for two days now.... anyone know
    if this is Corp. wide, and what the problem is? 
    
    Thx, pete

    Call User Support....
    
    It's been working just fine in Hull the last 2 days.
    
    
    Robin
    

    RE: .-1
    
    KAOEXC1 is apparently alive, but KAOEXC2 is dead.  Message from User
    Support is maybe back today, but chances are slim.  2 day outage for
    critical business function.  Nice.  Imagine the message backlog
    building up....

    Is there really a message backlog being built up, or do the messages
    just get dumped into the bit-bucket?
    
    I am a very opinionated Macintosh user. I have not and will never be an
    advocate of Microsoft nor PC products. I do however support them to the
    best of my skills, and without sounding too pompous, I do so better
    than most people within DIGITAL, in spit of sloppy programming, poor or
    non-existent architecture, short-sighted implimentations or otherwise,
    shoddy workmanship.
    
    I personally provide much of the bleeding edge technology support and
    implimentation in KAO for the Manufacturing Engineering community,
    outside of CCS, as many requirements are well in advance of CCS plans.
    I run the kanata VAXcluster, PATHWORKS V5.0 integrated into a Windows
    NT domain mfgeng, the first Windows NT Domain in Canada. I directly
    support most of the engineers in their most immediate needs, they call,
    I respond and leave when they have a smile on their face.
    
    I am not going to blame CCS, they are having a real hard time of it,
    having been in communication with Microsoft now for almost two days.
    
    This Microsoft Exchange architecture stinks, and it stinks BIGTIME! The
    various problems with mail, the lack of scalability, the delays or
    failure to even deliver mail, all these things, including licensing
    costs are downright despicable. VAX systems work and they work well.
    The last time I had to re-boot kanata was for that nice little obscure
    bug in time. kanata is up, it's up all the time, every time all year.
    Most of my Windows NT systems require reboots every 60 days or so, many
    Windows NT workstations require reboots in shorter timerames and when
    Microsoft thought they were copying the Macintosh interface and putting
    it into Windows 95, they couldn't even get that right, there are a pile
    of subtle things they missed entirely. Pretty interface that Windows 95
    thing, but not very functional.
    
    I am on a tirade here as I am quite pissed, that we, who used to be the
    SECOND LARGEST COMPUTER MANUFACTURER WORLDWIDE, have come to this, the
    acceptance of mediocrity within our midst, this Microsoft stuff.
    
    I have never in 15 years lost any VAX mail. I have never failed to
    deliver VAX mail in 15 years. I have never had a CRITICAL system such
    as VAX mail down for two days.
    
    The majority of engineers that I support conduct almost 85% of their
    daily activity in TEXT FORM. They process huge amounts of mail, ECOs,
    drawings, BOMs, and all kinds of other stuff that relates to
    manufacturing products. This Microsoft stuff is a hindrance to the
    efficient conductance of our business and now, it is directly impacting
    our ability to conduct business at all. If you have ever wondered why
    business has declined so much in America and Europe over the last 8
    years, if you have ever wondered why so mnay firms such as ourselves
    have had to hold massive layoffs, why so many businesses in your local
    community have gone bankrupt, why so many storefronts remain empty for
    so long after the businesses are long gone, why so many people
    worldwide are un-employed, you need look no further than the Marketing
    Juggernaut, Microsoft. Microsoft have sold the world a promise and
    failed to deliver, a bill of goods that they never make good on, and
    they keep changing all the while all the time. How many of you have
    filled out the Microsoft Registration card. It says, by filling out
    this card, we will enter your name in a draw for a vacation for two.
    Anyone ever get that vacation. Anyone know anyone that ever got that
    vacation. That card also says that Microsoft will keep you informed of
    changes and updates. I have yet, to receive a single notice from
    Mcirosoft telling me that any of the products I use have been updated,
    openly, blatantly, silently or otherwise. Anyone else, no.
    
    We have let ourselves be duped.
    
    Microsoft is killing us. The mangled up OS/2 on IBM and then later on
    everyone said how sad it was that IBM never did get OS/2 to work right
    or really ever went anywhere with it. Geez, everyone bought that
    Microsoft line that IBM was to blame for the woes of OS/2. Hell folks,
    wake up, Microsoft screwed IBM and they're screwing us.
    
    I could go on, and in some places in the past, I have. I know that some
    people will not agree with me here, many will be offended, and some
    will call for my head and others will tell me that the train is leaving
    the station and either I'm on it or I'm not. I have yet again stuck my
    neck out on the line and attempted to provide my honest opinion on the
    matter.
    
    We could nail these people and they way they have hoodwinked the world,
    and in the past when it came down to the short of it, nations rose and
    did just that.          
    
    Regards, Richard Tomkins

    That man gets my vote, even though I *have* had mail from Billco
    following the return of product registration cards. Are PCs with
    Windows anything other than overpriced fashion accessories ?

    <---- RE: .100
    
    Amen Richard. I couldn't agree more. We've been snookered 
    big time with Exchange.
    
    >I have never in 15 years lost any VAX mail. I have never failed to
    >deliver VAX mail in 15 years. I have never had a CRITICAL system such
    >as VAX mail down for two days.     
    
    >The majority of engineers that I support conduct almost 85% of their
    >daily activity in TEXT FORM. They process huge amounts of mail, ECOs,
    >drawings, BOMs, and all kinds of other stuff that relates to
    >manufacturing products. This Microsoft stuff is a hindrance to the
    >efficient conductance of our business and now, it is directly impacting
    >our ability to conduct business at all.
    
    The evidence is all over in how much Exchange is breaking down. Who
    in Hates is going to own up to making sure this thing is bullet-proof
    and fix this monstor before it kills our business further than it already
    is? Ous site is in the process of making this transition, and when
    it gets turned on, and I end up losing any productivity because of
    delays in sending/receiving mail, I'm going to be screaming bloody
    loud to the highest level of management at my site. Take that to the
    bank!
    
    Bob

        re:100 As long as the Corp is being run by people that don't have
    to implement changes. Or for that matter use the tools they force us 
    to use then changes will be made without consideration for the people
    forced to utilize them.. I've had an exchange account for about 4
    months and only recently started having my VMS mail forwarded to it.
    I'll cling to many of my VMS applications maybe not because it does 
    things better but because it's what I'm accustomed to.
    From my perspective mgt makes far too many changes based on which vendor
    we're collaborating with rather than using the best tools possible. 
    I do take a little deference to the inference that VMS mail only works
    on Vaxen... It also works quite well on Alpha's. 
    
    
    bb

    why .100 
    
    blaming the quality of MS sw for the crisis of modern capitalism is
    going over the top a bit, but there is a lot in what you say :-)
    
     >>require reboots in shorter timeframes
    
    the venturis intel inside w95 box which makes me feel like a
    cauliflower needs a reboot about 4 times a day and I reckon the ones in
    this office are costing us a fortune in lost productivity and
    maintenence. My hope is that local servers with thin clients will win
    out over the ms windows/internet jelly fish which is taking over the
    world, as the market realises that waiting for stuff to get through the
    net and then the pc browser costs money, honey.
    
    The technological change will be acccompanied by overproduction and slump, 
    but my guess is that Bill G won't be the first one to apply for Chapter 11.
    
    ..Kevin..
    

I used to rail against Microsoft and trumpet the superiority of our native 
mail systems, like many others in this thread. This month I've been forced, 
kicking and screaming, to make the move as part of an NSIS directive.

You know what? My life has gotten better. It's become much easier to work 
with my external customers since we can easily exchange (no pun intended!) 
working documents in native format.

Yeah, there are some growing pains, but I see continuous improvement. I still 
have access to Notes and VTX, plus a much better mail interface, IMHO.

We live in an era of constant technology change. As an organization we must 
either move with it or die. It's time to stop hugging trees and embrace our 
changes.

Though I still have reservations about Microsoft and its role in our 
industry, I don't think that the sky is falling.

Let the games begin... 

.100 makes some very good points.

When Exchange was forced on everyone, it gave a big boost to 
Intel revenue, Microsoft revenue, and modem mfg revenue.
You had to:

	1.  upgrade to a Pentium 133 with at least 24MB of memory to use the
	    stuff.
	2.  get a pentium laptop,
	3.  get a 28K or 33K modem.

In many cases, the cost center budgets didn't include the upgrades.

>     Microsoft is killing us. The mangled up OS/2 on IBM and then later on
>     everyone said how sad it was that IBM never did get OS/2 to work right
>     or really ever went anywhere with it. Geez, everyone bought that
>     Microsoft line that IBM was to blame for the woes of OS/2. Hell folks,
>     wake up, Microsoft screwed IBM and they're screwing us.

I'm sure the timing is just a coincidence but when the Lotus
port of  123 to OS/2 was 90% complete, MS put its full force behind Windows.


Gim

    RE: .105 (Exchange vs. previous mail implementation)
    
    The problem internally wasn't the products being used, but the lack of
    intelligent investment in our messaging infrastructure before the
    Exchange juggernaut.
    
    The lack of an internal directory isn't an ALL-IN-1 failing, but a
    failing to hook our X.500 Directory (ELF) implementation into ALL-IN-1
    (since we never installed ALL-IN-1 V3.2 internally).
    
    Lack of PC clients on the desktop has been the failure of investment
    and lack of aggressive promotion of TeamLinks on every desktop in the 
    company.
    
    With probably 1/4 the cost, we could have accomplished the same thing
    with our own product set.  (Actually, there is one exception.  We would 
    be better off using Innosoft PMDF as an SMTP backbone from the ALL-IN-1 
    servers than using our own MAILbus 400 as an X.400 backbone.  X.400 lost 
    the backbone war in a big way, and unfortunately we were on the losing
    side in the war.)
    
    It's an investment issue more than anything.  By the way, I'm not
    anti-Exchange -- it's got a lot of fine features, but I don't think what 
    was done internally was the best thing for Digital as an enterprise or
    as a software company or as a consulting company.  I think we would
    have been much better off pitching the "integration" message for our
    internal deployment of Exchange (rather than "migration") while tuning 
    up our ALL-IN-1 infrastructure to make the integration picture a reality. 
    The Exchange "migration" should have been left to the individual
    business units.
    
    - Dave  

    
    	Yes, Exchange is an MS software product, but once we install that
    	product and start using it here, what keeps it running?  Is it MS
    	hardware, or our own hardware?
    
    	I like Exchange, and I believe it has many benefits.  And it will
    	get easier to use as more people are up on Exchange.
    

    Here is an interesting one:
    
    I got locked out of my Exchange account this week.
    
    Exchange was running, but I was not dialed in on RAS.  So I dial in,
    but my DIGITAL1 password was expired.  No problem, I go through the
    dialog to change it.  Goes down clean.
    
    I try to fetch my mail, Exchange wants a password.  The new one doesn't
    work, neither does the old one.  Plus, I can't exit Exchange's password
    prompt dialog box.  I try each password a few times, then reboot.  Now
    I dial in to RAS, and my account has been disabled.
    
    I call, get it enabled.  Then the GOOD news:
    
    It will take about 20 minutes for this change to make to the RAS and
    Exchange servers.  Seems I was supposed to wait this long before
    accessing Exchange after having updated my password the first time.
    
    Gothca!
    
    FJP

>>>    This Microsoft Exchange architecture stinks, and it stinks BIGTIME!  The
>>>    various problems with mail, the lack of scalability, the delays or
>>>    failure to even deliver mail, all these things, including licensing
>>>    costs are downright despicable. VAX systems work and they work well.

I think Microsoft Exchange is a great messaging architecture!  I'm sure in a few 
years, they'll get the bugs worked out.

What stinks is Digital's mis-management of the deployment and implementation of 
Exchange, forcing total dependance on an immature product for a mission critial 
function. How many business do you know that switch over critical IS functions 
with 9 days notice?  How many business toy with critical internal functions for 
the sake of gaining experience for customer application?


							-Paul
 

    Paul,
    
    Some customer surprisingly do make software switches with 9 days or
    less notice.  They are the ones that are barely worth dealing with on
    hotlines unless they have an hourly contract as they take up hours of
    one's time trying to straighten out their messes.  
    
    One has to wonder WIH decided that we should not learn from our
    customers' mistakes and do the same thing ourselves.  
    
    meg

    
    re: 109.
    
    happened to me too.   Frustrating!
    
    chet

    	Correction  - wasn't .109 - I'm at AKO2 and exchange has been
    running fine down here the last two days...
    
    thanks shawn 
    
    joyce

    RE: .107
    
>    With probably 1/4 the cost, we could have accomplished the same thing
>    with our own product set.  (Actually, there is one exception.  We would 
>    be better off using Innosoft PMDF as an SMTP backbone from the ALL-IN-1 
>    servers than using our own MAILbus 400 as an X.400 backbone.  
    
>    It's an investment issue more than anything.  By the way, I'm not
>    anti-Exchange -- it's got a lot of fine features, but I don't think what 
>    was done internally was the best thing for Digital as an enterprise or
>    as a software company or as a consulting company.  I think we would
>    have been much better off pitching the "integration" message for our
>    internal deployment of Exchange (rather than "migration") while tuning 
>    up our ALL-IN-1 infrastructure to make the integration picture a reality. 
>    The Exchange "migration" should have been left to the individual
>    business units.
    
    Amen! Amen! Amen!  What is sad is with the MAPI driver currently
    available and Office Server V4.0 in the near future we could have had 
    the best of Exchange & ALL-IN-1!  At the very least with a coexistent
    environment gradual migration with little to no disruption is/was
    possible!   Even major customers such as DuPont that had refused to 
    upgrade ALL-IN-1 beyond V2.3 have seen the light and they are now 
    seriously considering V3.2 and beyond (infact some divisions have 
    already gone to V3.2)!
    
    Sigh!
    
    - dan

    I have noticed a significant lack of Reader's Choice mail coming
    through since moving to Exchange. Is it a coincidence? Or is it me?
    
    Stuart "Pro Readers Choice" Zorbas

    RE: .105 (I think), Exchange's happy customer.
    
    We could have acheived all that, at a far, far lower cost, by using
    POP3 mailboxes and Netscape Mail. Exchange is a complete dog.
    
    I have a private domain, and where possible, I have mail sent there
    rather than to exchange. Mail is then forwarded to both my vaxmail
    account, and to my exchange account. Ok, so in exchange I don't have to
    "decode" non-text stuff in order to read it, but guess which is faster
    and more reliable.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

re Canada Exchange outage, I found this excerpt from a CCS-Americas
Service Advisory "interesting":

> If you must communicate a time critical message to an impacted 
> Toronto region or KAO employee or mail account, please use 
> another method of contact, such as telephone, FAX, ALL-IN-1, or 
> VAXmail, if possible.  Mail messages that are not time-critical 
> can be forwarded as usual and will be held in the queue for 
> delivery when the Exchange Mail server becomes available.

    
    	The funny thing is, I believe the server was back up and run-
    	ning sometime Friday ... and I got that notice sometime yester-
    	day which said that it was still down [long .DIS list, maybe?].
    

Here is a sequence of Mail messages informing me of migration to exchange
and VMS account deletion.  You have to read them last to first.
    I've XXXed out some names.


----------------------------------------------------------------------


From: 	XXXX XXXX
Sent: 	Tuesday, April 15, 1997 9:05 AM
To: 	Greg Nikolic
Subject: 	RE: Notice of A1 account deletion




Not me.......  I didn't do it.  Corp. has been  doing this on their own.  
Sorry, you will have to call the hotline on this.  
They do not usually reopen accounts.  Hope you didn't have too much in there.

XXXXX

XXXX XXXX
SBU M&D Info Services
Admin Support



----------
From: 	Greg Nikolic
Sent: 	Tuesday, April 15, 1997 8:57 AM
To: 	XXXX XXXX
Subject: 	RE: Notice of A1 account deletion

Hi XXXX


I think you already changed my VMS password on node SALEM so I could not get in.

If you could give me a password,  I might be able to clean my account

greg

----------
From: 	XXXX XXXX
Sent: 	Tuesday, April 15, 1997 8:39 AM
To: 	Cc: 	Lot's of people XXXX XXXX
Subject: 	Notice of A1 account deletion


This memo is to notify you that your Exchange account has now been in 
effect for over 30 days.  At this time your A1 account is scheduled for 
deletion on 4/22/97.  If you have not completely cleaned out your 
account, please do so immediately.  For anyone 

If  you feel you need your account past this date - please do not call, 
send your request for an extension to either XXXXX (Project Mgr. - 
makes all final decisions) or myself.

Attached you will find a Readers Choice memo dated 3/10/97 explaining the 
Corporate and SBU direction regarding our migration to Exchange.  
Any questions, please contact XXX XXX at XXX Exchange Program Manager.


----------
From: 	Readers Choice[SMTP:[email protected]]
Sent: 	Monday, March 10, 1997 8:35 AM
To: 	Distribution list removed
Subject: 	#29531-SBU Exchange Migration Update: Status Report 1

FROM: Linda Ward, MRO, DTN 297-4795, FAX: 297-1442

In August 1996, the SBU announced plans to migrate its mail and messaging 
capabilities from DIGITAL legacy applications -- VMSmail, ALL-IN-1, and 
DECmail -- to Microsoft Exchange.  Implementation, which is being done in 
parallel with the company-wide migration, is well under way within the SBU.

You'll be hearing from us 
Because this change has such a significant impact on how we all do our 
daily work, SBU management and the SBU Microsoft Exchange Program Office 
plan to communicate with you about it on a regular basis. This status 
report is the first in a series of updates that will be sent to all SBU 
employees. Future topics will include: the benefits of Microsoft Exchange, 
Exchange training resources, and tips and tricks for working in the new 
environment.

Company goals and progress
The corporation's worldwide goal is to migrate roughly 40,000 accounts to 
Exchange and to phase out all legacy mail systems by the end of Q1 FY98. 
Implementation began in earnest during Q2 FY97. To date, an estimated 
30,000 accounts -- 75% of the total -- have been migrated company-wide.

SBU Status Report
In keeping with that schedule, the SBU is planning to migrate over 12,000 
SBU accounts to Exchange by the end of Q1 FY98.   To date, approximately 
5,000 accounts -- almost 42% -- have been migrated.

The DIGITAL Call Center in Littleton, Massachusetts was the first SBU site 
to migrate to Exchange, in October 1996.  After encountering and resolving 
some initial instability, the rollout has gone smoothly, with end users 
expressing a high degree of satisfaction with the new environment. In late 
February, the MRO1 facility in Marlboro, Massachusetts completed 
implementation.  We will publish a rollout schedule for other sites and 
groups in the near future.

The path to success
SBU management believes, along with DIGITAL senior management, that the 
implementation of Microsoft Exchange will pay enormous dividends to the 
company, our business unit, SBU working groups, and individual employees. 
We plan to provide you with the information, tools, and resources to ensure 
your productivity and success in this new environment, and we thank you for 
your continued support in this effort.

Regards,
Len Hyman, SBU Microsoft Exchange Program  Manager






XXXX XXXX
SBU M&D Info Services
Admin Support

    	Please note that this all reads "SBU Exchange..." and *not*
    anything mentioned about CCS.  When my Exchange account was activated,
    all new mail flowed to the new account, but the A1 account was left
    intact until I was able to move stuff over.  This was the CCS
    migration.
    
    	"Interesting technique" is a polite way of terming this, arbitrary
    and without any consideration are a few terms that come to mind. 
    Sounds like a project manager having this entire enterprise being
    driven by the end-date of some project plan. 
    
    	You have my sympathies, but I'd yell like crazy as far up the SBU
    mgt as I could were it me.
    
    	Leo

    It's incredible that they didn't at least do a backup.  Hopefully there
    was an automatic backup procedure in place.
    

    I really should not be writing this when I am angry - I usually regret
    it later on when I have cooled off.
    
    I am the person who sets up the dates for the training classes and also
    compiles the listing of when the accounts should be de-activated.  When
    a person takes the Exchange training here in NIO, they are told that
    their A1 and/or the VMS accounts will be disabled after 45 days unless
    there is a valid business reason to retain it (see Greg's note with the
    attachment).  Many of the requests are denied - many are given an
    extension.
    
    What Greg forgot to mention is that he did his training in November of
    1996.  Also, he forgot to mention that after being extended past the 45
    days, he moved to OGO and they do not have A1 or VMS accounts.
    
    If you will notice the attachment that Greg so nicely left onto my
    memo, it is not NIO but Corporate that is pushing us onto Exchange and
    we here in NIO are trying hard to do our part.
    
    Sign me an Admin trying hard to do a tough job.
    
    Jean

    Re: .122
    
    Out of macabre curiousity, who is "Corporate"?
    

    re: .123
    
    > Out of macabre curiousity, who is "Corporate"?
    
    	Bill Gates.   1/2 :-)
    
    	Steve

    after taking the formal training I'm stunned and amazed how much
    functionality Exchange has over the exchanged ALL-IN-1 environement. 
    By the end of this century, which is scheduled by SCHEDULE+ for year 2004
    we will most likely have 98% of the outdated ALL-IN-1 functions,
    however we might be in the lucky position not to need it any longer. 
    ;-) I'm fully convinced that this move is good, still don't know for
    whom!

Since Exchange is a hot topic right now and Digital is
one of the first very large scale implementations, can
someone tell me how we back up our Exchange servers?
(Assuming we do back them up).  We sell NSR with Exchange
back up capability.  Do we use that internally, or do we
have another strategy?

Thanks in advance.

BC

re: .125                   
    
    > for year 2004 we will most likely have 98% of the outdated ALL-IN-1 
    > functions, however we might be in the lucky position not to need it 
    > any longer. 
    
    Can you elaborate?  How about a comparision with Office Server? :^)
    
    db

RE: .126

	The Exchange Notesfile at CHEFS:: has alot on info on this.
	Most are using NetWorkr..

							mike

    The backup in kanata is done using a batch script that calls the
    command line interface of ntbackup to do the backup. I got this info.
    from One of the staffers a few weeks ago, it may have changed in the
    past week or so.
    
    If I were to continue on my tirade with regards to a lack of
    architecture, the scheduling system within Windows NT is absymal at
    best and the lack of a proper functioning backup program of any
    significance is much more than mere oversite, it is criminal.
    
    Windows NT like all Microsoft product is designed by revenue
    expectations. As most everyone in the PC business never bothers to
    perform a backup, then Windows NT is not provided with a proper backup
    program. The moment that someone within Microsoft can demonstrate that
    having a proper backup program would generate cash, then Microsoft will
    assign a group of engineers to design and impliemnt a backup program of
    absolute amazing features. This will then knock out the third party
    firms from the backup program market and cause yet again another round
    of incompatible and not very well architected solutions to come out of
    Microsoft. They will go down a path and then decide that it should be
    done a different way, change directions, throw out everything from
    before, start again and somewhere down this new path again switch
    directions and do it all again. Menawhile, we as users/managers have to
    keep purchasing the upgrades and patches to keep it all working and
    hope that somehow it all comes out right in the end.
    Lest you doubt my intimate knowledge on this matter,
    Windows NT V3.51 Service Pack 3, claimed that Windows NT V3.51 without
    Service Packs Backup tapes to be blank. Now this is and of itslef was
    not such a horrible thing, but, I had two systems, one I had faithfully
    added the Service Packs in sequence to, as they had been released. The
    other, as best I could when possible. Well, I added a tape drive to the
    second system, after Service Pack 3 had been installed. So, I had two
    systems, both Windows NT V3.51, both with Service Pack 3 installed, the
    first system had always had a tape drive and the second had the tape
    drive added after the installation of Service Pack 3. So now I had a
    system that said all the tapes from one system were blank.
    
    So, the moral is, every single time you install a product, a driver or
    a whatever on a Windows NT system, you must without fail always
    re-install the Service Pack. If you don't, you have all kinds of funny
    problems that crop up, just like the one i described.
    
    Oh yes, once I figured out what I had done over the past year and how I
    had done it, it was easy enough to surmise that re-installing Service
    Pack 3 on the system with the new tape drive would fix up my problem.
    It did. Of course, all htose backup tapes from before Service Pack 3
    were now history, but then, why would I want to restore any files from
    before Windows NT V3.51 Service Pack 3 anyhow. ;-)
    
    I stand here before you to talk beside you to tell you of something of
    which I know nothing about.
    
    rtt
    
    There is no installation architecture for Windows NT. This one goes
    like this, you add software and Microsoft Word replaces system DLLs.
    Now the C program you have been working on for the past month starts
    acting up after the latest compile and you start tracking down what's
    gone wrong, and you wind up inside the compiler and finding bugs with
    it that someone then says were fixed long ago and you now begin to
    question your sanity, wondering how your system could have such an old
    DLL in place when you installed the C compiler so recently. On and on
    it goes, till you figure out that the developers working on Word used
    an older version of the compiler than what you have to do your work and
    so they provided you with an older DLL for use tih their product which
    replaced the newer version of the DLL for your product, etc., etc.,
    etc...
    
    IS IT ANY WONDER THAT MICROSOFT BASED SYSTEMS BECOME MORE UNSTABLE AS
    TIME GOES ON?
    
    I reccomend to everyone that at a minimum, they perform a complete
    reinstall of everything from the ground up every 2 years, but
    preferably once a year.
    
    rtt

    Re: proper backups
    
    Wandering the Internerd at MS the other day, I noticed that MS have
    finally realized that NT lacks a proper "disaster recovery" backup.
    Their response is to announce an "alliance" with Computer Associates to
    develop one.
    
    regards
    john

Re .129:

>    Oh yes, once I figured out what I had done over the past year and how I
>    had done it, it was easy enough to surmise that re-installing Service
>    Pack 3 on the system with the new tape drive would fix up my problem.

You didn't have to surmise anything. It is well documented that whenever you 
install any parts of the operating system after a Service Pack, you must 
reinstall the Service Pack.

Re .130:

> NT disaster recovery backup = Computer Associates

This would bring tears to my eyes if they weren't already there.

Incidentally, has anyone else noticed the distressing tendency to put multiple 
fonts and colours in mail messages simply because you can? I'm reading one at 
the moment that has six different fonts and as many colours, plus underlining 
and bolding (as well as a Word document attachment), for absolutely no reason at 
all. It reminds of when Macintoshes first came out: "look, I can use all the 
fonts on one page".

I wonder how much time people waste "prettyfying" their mail messages.

PJDM

    A bit outside of the current discussion:
    
    I think the topic of this stream is wrong. EXCHANGE DOES IT! It tells
    the world that you can move a company the size of DIGITAL onto
    EXCHANGE. And especially to OpenVMS customers ... there must be a
    reason when the vendor moves on to other vendor's product. Kind a
    message we would when FORD tells the worls that from now on all company
    cars will be HONDAs. And they did it with a 9 days notice to move the
    old stuff into the new trunk.
    
    I too do like the fact that EXCHANGE has up-to-date document and
    graphics capabilities. We should have built this into VMSmail years
    ago. What I don't like is the fact while my little desktop system is
    well maintained and up-an-running I depend on other systems to keep
    track of my mail capabilities. Wasn't the case when my desktop was VMS
    based.
    
    Guenther

    I just received a note from my manager "reminding" me that my input 
    for my performance appraisal was due over a week ago.
    
    Of course, I would have promptly provided my input had the original 
    message ever arrived.
    
    It didn't.
    
    I wonder how many other mail messages have never made it to me.
    
    Nothing like a mail system that's worth betting your job on...
    
    8^(
    
    -- Russ

This Sunday's Nashua Telegraph had a column by their science writer, David
Brooks, on the unreliability of E-mail.  He referred to a problem he had
exchanging (!) mail with a DECcie (Tim Dolan, I think), where Brooks got a
"cannot send for 5 days" message from a PKO Exchange router.  (On the other
side, Dolan was having trouble sending mail to Brooks on AOL, but that was
AOL's problem.

Brooks remarked that E-mail *INSIDE* Digital was reliable enough - it was just
when the mail traversed the "Internet" that things became problematic.
Little does he know that even inside Digital, our brandy-new e-mail system is
creating problems for employees.  There's NO excuse for "intranet" mail to
take days to be delivered, as happens all too often.

					Steve

    Didn't AOL buy a bunch of AlphaServers 1000's over the last year?

    When I send mail out of DIGITAL I always trail it
    with a message to not reply but to send when responding.
    I then provide the proper address. I don't know enough
    about mailers to know why but somewhere someones mailer
    always screws up the address so that simply replying fails.
    
    Jim C.
    

re: .135
>    Didn't AOL buy a bunch of AlphaServers 1000's over the last year?

So, Kratz, are you trying to imply a causal relationship here?
One that you can back up?

Or are you just stirring the pot again?

    Just observing that DIGITAL has been quiet about the AlphaServer
    sales to AOL, considering most every other sale ends up on the
    front page of Digital Today.
    Kratz

        The Alpha sales to AOL are small potatoes compared to the HP
    systems there.
    
        Considering the media watch on anything involving AOL, it sounds
    like a good decision to not make a big deal about it.
    
    MDL

    I thought AOL was big on SGI.  A rep I used to support in DIGITAL did
    well after getting the SGI/AOL account.

    Is this normal/expected behavior...?
    
    I am working on a co-workers Windows-95 workstation (with exchange
    client installed).  I log into my domain, with my username, I bring up
    exchange, and I get my co-workers mailbox.  This doesn't seem very
    secure.
    
    Mark

That's because you've authenticated to the domain via your
coworkers username/password. Just like VMS, if I'm logged 
into the an account then I can read any mail in the account.

Pete

    I don't think so.  I boote4d up the machine, logged into MY username,
    but don't get MY exchange account.
    
    Mark

    
    could it be that the system you booted belonged to someone else, and
    exchange was set up for THEM and not YOU.  The Exchange.ini file
    could point to everything in the owners system.  Map YOUR disk, and
    run YOUR exchange...
    
    
    chet   .....   just a thought.
    

RE: .144

	Doesn't matter. He logged in with his credentials. Exchange
	should not have allowed him access to his friends mailbox.
	It uses NT authentication. He was not authenticated for
	his friends mailbox.

							mike

    
    	However, what happens if the guy who owns the system has his pers-
    	onal folders on an unprotected C drive, and the guy who borrowed
    	the system had his Exchange profile set up to point to his own C
    	drive personal folders?
    

In control panel, mail, there is settings, and a username is set-up 
in there.

    
         RE: .141
    
         Do you REALLY get into your co-worker's mail, or can you just see
    his top-level mailbox? You most certainly should not be able to read
    his mail, but since his is the only profile on that system, it would
    be the mailbox exchange would TRY to open (it should not actually
    succeed and I have never seen such a thing succeed).
    
                                       Greg

    Hi Mark,
    
    I think .148 has it.  Everyone who tries this thinks they are getting
    into someone else's mail box, but then when they try actually see
    anything, it doesn't show anything.  
    
    If you have NT or 95-plus you can set-up multilple profiles that will
    be selected automatically when you log into your account.  If you have
    straight 95, you can still create a separate profile, but you have to
    select it from Inbox properties (right click Inbox). You can also set
    it up so that the system will prompt you for profile name each time.
    
    Ben

    Re: .140   ...sorry to prolong a rathole - AOL uses various vendors, I
    believe HP and SGI are the most prevalent.  During one of my visits
    there, I believe I heard that they are one of HPs biggest customers.
    
        They also happen to be one of the largest GIGAswitch/FDDI
    customers, which is why I was there.
    
        The rows upon rows of HP servers are quite impressive.
    
    MDL

How do you tell exchange to let you chose profiles at startup?

    Tools
    General
    "Check" Prompt for a profile to be used
    
    Goldy.

    (Ben Howard, how are ya, goos to see you back)
    
    Well, it turns out the exchange I was running on his system was a local
    copy, and not the corporate client.  But, apparantly, I can not read MY
    mail from someone elses workstation.  Or rather, how do I read (i.e get
    access to) my exchange mailbox, from another PC.
    
    Mark
    
    P.S. I guess this would be better asked in another notes file.

    Guenther,
    
    Re .132: building pictures into VMSmail. You are joking, right ?
    
    Engineering DID build pictures into VMSmail. And OLE (except in those
    days it was called LiveLinks). And a little later the X.400 clients 
    did pictures too. But because so few people in DEC had workstations or
    Xterms on the desk, almost no-one knew it existed. And we didn't tell
    many people outside. How many people know that NOTES does pictures too?
    
    CDA stands for other things besides "crash dump analysis" - maybe
    "Compound Document Architecture", for example. But we never made
    anything of it. Bill did, and here we are.
    
    regards
    john

    Indeed,
    
    the first time some 'Windows weenie' in great excitement showed me
    'OLE' (Object Linking and Embedding), I said "ho-hum" been doing that
    on DECWindows for ages ;')
    
    H

    re -.1 -.2
    
    Recant your heresy and pass your MS Professional tests.
    
    Bill Needs no questionable technologies from us, no ideas, his is 
    his own light and enlightenment.
    
    Bill invented objects, windows, tcpip, servers, and pictures, 
    and their manipulation with OLE (not CDE)...
    
    The CIOs will all be in line to go to the Hale-Bopp Comet with 
    Bill if they let him run their datacenters....
    
    Bill knows what's good for us and we will be remade in his
    image (and pay $89.95 for the priviledge)
    
    His will  be served...
    
    John W;-)

    Resistance is futile.
    
    You will be assimilated.
    
    Where do you want to go today?
    

    The next layout for our pay stubs is rumored to have a space for our
    weekly deduction for Microsoft...
    
    

My turn to whine....

I work for NSIS. For the most part, going to Exchange has been positive. It 
makes it very convenient to share project documents with my customers, and 
lets us reduce road time.

Yesterday (June 4), around 10 AM Pacific time, one client sent me the 
master of a document we are working on. I need to insert some changes and 
return it. I didn't see the document at all that day.

Today I called the Hotline (kind of redefines the meaning of "hot", doesn't 
it?) and sat on hold for 15 minutes. The gentleman who finally took my call 
was quite polite and efficient. He found that one of the mail servers had 
been having trouble for the last day or so, and that the cause of the 
problem was unknown.

At this point I became quite upset - not at the gentleman who took my call, 
but at the system management for not notifying us promptly of the problem. 
I asked to speak to a supervisor. I got voicemail, of course.

Two hours after complaining about non notification of the problem, I 
(finally) get a mass mail note from Support announcing a mail problem. It's 
only been 24 hours!

This is no way to run a railroad. Problems happen with new installations 
like Exchange, but there's no excuse for not warning us early of a 
potential problem so that we can find workarounds.

Instead, I lost a day on my project, which means I can't bill the customer 
for all the time I planned to this week. Once I found out about the 
problem, I had my client send the document to my personal Worldnet account.

Bottom line: We depend on these mail systems to conduct business. If 
problems occur (and they will), let us know promtly. This lets us find 
alternatives and makes us look less like idiots to our customers.

There, that feels better.

If you noticed, they did send the mail out via Exchange