Conference 7.286::digital

    I was over at an ISV and they received some promotional material from
    Microsoft for either Visual C++ or Visual Basic.  In the packages were 
    some suggested systems to run within these development environment.  I 
    can't remember who was suggested, I think it was AST, Compaq, and Dell. 
    There wasn't one mentioned of a Digital PC or Alpha system.  

    I was at a Microsoft seminar on development tools e.g., Multimedia
    tools and not necessarily from Microsoft.  They demo'ed the Living
    books.  Once again, develop under Microsoft's Operating system's of
    choice and suggested hardware configuration - everyone mentioned EXCEPT
    you know who - DEC.

    Digital might be touting an alliance with Microsoft but it appears to
    me that Microsoft thinks we have BO because they steer clear of us as
    much as possible.  I've NEVER seen a commercial advertisement from
    Microsoft leveraging the DEC advantage.

    If the article in Note 4535 is true, regarding Palmer coercing Gates
    into an alliancing for having our technologies, it appears that they
    resent it and won't do anything to promote it. 
    
    I have to admit it nice to see all the negative articles about
    Microsoft being difficult to work with, non-responsive, being pushy
    with their proprietary technology, missing the windows of opportunity,
    etc.  Sounds like the stories to read about with regards to Digital and
    IBM.  I guess that Microsoft is getting so large that they're becoming
    inefficient like any large company.

	Remember, Microsoft has to make nice to alot of other
	manufacturers. If they skip over Digital in some promotion,
	I highly doubt it's because we have BO. The fact that Bill and
	Bob are up there on a podium making interesting alliances should
	say enough. There is a real push for Alpha on NT from Microsoft.
	Engineers there love Alpha. Microsoft wants to start selling to
	the big customers and Alpha is becoming very viable for that.

	However, it would be remiss of us to think that we are the
	only one. Microsoft also loves it's other children. (Compaq and
	Intel) The love can only be spread so thin. Let's make due with
	what we get. 

							mike

    Why can't we own a market?  Is there something wrong with that? 
    
    I sort of like the Ferengi rule of acquisition #242
    
    "More is good - all is better".
    
    Wouldn't we need to emply a few more people if we owned the market?
    (grin)
    j
    

    From what I gather, Microsoft's agenda is to get folks to run Windows
    NT on whatever machines because they can sell Windows NT.  Digital's 
    agenda is to get folks to run their operating systems on Alphas because
    they can sell Alphas.  I don't see the economic engine there to entice
    Microsoft to sell Alphas.  
    
    Alphas are scoring very well in some tiny markets.  I know that 3D 
    animators for the most part drool over the possibility of using Alphas 
    to run NT applications.  In a recent comparison, I saw all the other 
    vendors featured at the beginning of the review and Alpha mentioned last.  
    It wasn't because they didn't like Alpha.  It was because the Alpha was
    the clear winner in the comparison.  The vendors in the 3D animation 
    world are developing and pushing Alpha/NT software because they know 
    it's what their customers want.  They are willing to do this because 
    they are working in a tiny, tiny market that loves Alpha.
    
    We need a lot more small markets that love Alpha before we can 
    convince Microsoft and other software vendors that there's a big 
    market for Alphas.  Sure, developers from different companies love
    Alpha.  I've heard that before.  But, developers as a group are also 
    only a tiny market for Alpha.  
    
    Microsoft will push Alphas when they figure it will help them sell
    Windows NT.  Right now, I don't think they think it will.  But, they
    have every reason to work with Digital/Alpha because it helps them sell
    NT to Alpha owners.  With Digital pushing NT to Alpha owners, I think
    Microsoft figures that market is covered as far as NT sales go.
    
    I think it was a shrewd move to create market pull by marrying Alpha
    with NT.  But, we need to continue to work on Alpha demand ourselves.  
    Microsoft isn't going to do that for us (unless they can smell a buck).
      
    Steve

    re .3
    Sounds proprietary to me.
    r
    

	Re: .2:
    
	>>> say enough. There is a real push for Alpha on NT from Microsoft.
	>>> Engineers there love Alpha. Microsoft wants to start selling to
	
    	If Microsoft engineers love Alpha then why doesn't their web site
        run on an Alpha NT box instead of the dual-CPU pentiums they have
        now?  Why don't we see applications like Visual Basic, Visual C++,
        Microsoft Office, BackOffice, etc. come out at the same revision
    	level at the same time for native Alpha if at all as the Intel
        releases?
    
    
    							Michael
    

    re: .2
    
    Any evidence that their engineers love Alpha ?
    What is the % of developers there who do their work on an Alpha NT box?
    
    Thierry

    Got this from the Digital Clusters for Windows NT notesfile.  I don't
    remember seeing any positive press from Microsoft on Digital's Cluster
    product.  The only thing I remember seeing is that Microsoft will have
    "WolfPack" which will be better than what Digital will be offering. 
    They didn't mention that we'll be here in May and they won't have
    anything for a few more months.
    
  Microsoft Perspective

  "We are pleased that Vinca is planning to offer StandbyServer  for Windows
NT Server," said Mike Nash, group product manager,  Windows NT Server at
Microsoft Corp.  "The fact that they are  delivering StandbyServer is great
for their customers."

    
    
    Re:  .8    Please provide pointer to NT Cluster Notes conf.
    
    gb

    From the file EASYNOTES.LIS
    
VAXcluster Console System	NOTED::VCS				      40
VAXcluster Revision Matrix	PROXY::CLUSTER_RM			    2983
VAXcluster Revision Matrix (Shadow) GIDDAY::CLUSTER_RM			    2983
VAXcluster Wish List		SCHOOL::VAXCLUSTER_PHASE_0		    3285
VAXclusters			SPEZKO::CLUSTER				      37
Windows NT clusters		LJSRV1::WINNT-CLUSTERS			    4547
PULSE Remote VAXcluster Monitor BIGJOE::DECPULSE			    1687
VAXcluster Performance Advisor	VINO::VPA				     314
Low End Cluster Field Test	BULOVA::LOWENDCLUSTER			    1137
VAXclusters (Vol. 2)		SPEZKO::CLUSTER_2			      37
    
    Or from TURRIS::EASYNET_CONFERENCES Note 4547
    

RE: .7

	I don't know percentages. (jeez) I baseing it on talking/listening
	to people/friends at Microsoft. 

RE: .6

	I don't know why their web site isn't an Alpha. Why isn't it
	a PowerPC or MIPS?

	Visual C++ 4.x for Alpha was pretty close in timeframe for release
	as for Intel. Alpha compilers ARE a little more complex so the
	delay is understandable. (at least I think so) It didn't make
	much sense to do a 2.2 for Alpha when 4.0 was so close.

	I don't expect a version of Office95 for Alpha. (just my opinion)
	Especially when it'll run great under FX!32. For that type of
	application, it may not make sense at this time to compile
	natively.

	However, for BackOffice, that's another story. Exchange released
	with Intel and Alpha at the same time. Runs great. SMS and other
	BackOffice applications are on Alpha. They seem to come out
	within weeks of each other, or on the same disk as the Intel bits.
	I don't understand where you are coming from.

							mike

All I have seen in Digital notesfile lately is whining about Microsoft.

Microsoft is our most important partner.

Get used to it.

Maybe Microsoft will push Alpha when Digital employees stop bashing them.

The question about why Microsoft does not run their Web Server on Alpha was
actually posed to Balmer at a presentation I attended recently.

His answer was....why? Microsoft's Web Page is constrained by bandwidth, not
CPU.  His other comment was...why should Microsoft get involved in the Alpha/Intel
war?  There is no war, according to Digital...we don't position Alpha as an
alternative to Intel...we position it as a technical platfrom, not a volume one.

Balmer said, why should I run my Web Page on Alpha rather than Intel?  It's a fair
question.

Compare sales of NT on Compaq, versus NT on Alpha.  No comparison.


-Stephen

Ummm, Stephen, did you really mean to say Palmer instead
of Balmer?  Or is that some kind statement about 'our
fearless leader'?

-Amy

    as in Embalmer-  maybe with all the cuts, he meant Dalmer (sp).

>Ummm, Stephen, did you really mean to say Palmer instead
>of Balmer?  Or is that some kind statement about 'our

I thought maybe it was a contraction for B Palmer....

				SQ

    Isn't Balmer one of Gates' VPs?  Steve Balmer, maybe?  Name sure sounds
    familiar... probably a household name in the Seattle area.
    
    	Steve

Steve Balmer is a Microsoft Executive VP.  I believe that is who Stephen
White was referring to. Rhymes with Palmer, but is different!

re: 16

Well, I'm sure that Microsoft probably has a smaller VP to peon ratio
than we have but I haven't bothered to learn their VP names either (even
after my SO worked there for enough years).  Seattlites don't really
care to talk _a lot_ about Microsoft name related people, unless they
might buy/save a local sports team (first the Ms, now the Seahawks). I
could come up the name of a retired MS star who is now a UWash. regent,
if I think about it long enough.  It took a long enough to stop writing
MicroSoft and to get used to them moving from Bellevue to Redmond, sheesh.

(I wouldn't bother whining about Microsoft, of course.  I have complete
faith that Bill and his crew will only be looking out for themselves &
why someone might think otherwise is beyond me.)

-Amy

    
RE: .11

	>>> I don't know why their web site isn't an Alpha. Why isn't it
	>>> a PowerPC or MIPS?

    	The point was not why aren't they running on something other than
    	Intel but why aren't they running an Alpha system for their web
        site if they are such a good partner of ours and want to promote
    	our technology at least as much as we are promoting theirs.
    
    RE: .12
    
    	As for bandwidth, I find it hard to believe that we wouldn't be
        able to put together a system that could beat the pants off of
    	an Intel box in terms of I/O and network throughput. 
    
    RE: .11
    
	>>> Visual C++ 4.x for Alpha was pretty close in timeframe for release
	>>> as for Intel. Alpha compilers ARE a little more complex so the
	>>> delay is understandable. (at least I think so) It didn't make
	>>> much sense to do a 2.2 for Alpha when 4.0 was so close.

        If they wanted to, Microsoft could release both versions at the
    	same time.  A lot of developers don't want to wait several weeks
    	for an Alpha version.  Why should I wait for an Alpha version when
    	the Intel compiler comes out first?  Nor is the Alpha compiler
    	promoted at all through the same distribution channels that the
    	Intel products are.
    	
    
	>>> I don't expect a version of Office95 for Alpha. (just my opinion)
	>>> Especially when it'll run great under FX!32. For that type of
	>>> application, it may not make sense at this time to compile
	>>> natively.

    	The point is that I have to wait for that version - as a customer
    	I would not want to wait.  Also, I do not have a high confidence
    	level in something that has been translated rather than re-compiled
    	and blessed by Microsoft.

    	I'm not saying this is a completely one-way deal, just that we
    	should have some concerns and realistic expectations about what
    	it is we are trying to get out of the alliance.
    
							Michael
    

    STOP ALL THIS!
    
    There is a LOT of mis-information in this note.  I work on the Alliance
    Team at DECwest and my job involves working on many of the items that
    are being complained about here.  I guess this means I'm a failure :-(
    
    The real problem appears to be lack of communication about the status
    of the Alliance to our own employees!  We're aware of this, but,
    constrained by resources, we focus outward.
    
    I don't have time to address every issue, and I'll be travelling next
    week, so I won't be able to respond to all questions immediately, but
    I'll do my best.
    
    1. Microsoft and Digital have a lot to gain from each other - market
    penetration into new markets for each, for example.  Microsoft can NOT
    due to the kind of SI we do, and can lead us to plenty of work - and
    they already have.
    
    2. We know that Alpha is a niche product.  We have plenty of Intel
    systems to sell.  Alpha has a very good penetration for what it is - a
    high end solution.  We own nearly all the RISC NT market.
    
    3. We're working on the web server issue.
    
    4. We have well over 500 alphas in the hands of developers at
    Microsoft, and more going in all the time.
    
    5. ALL Backoffice (and all server products in general) ship
    simultaneously on Alpha as Intel.
    
    6. Watch this space for client announcements.  
    
    7. Clusters: Most of the problem is our lack of communication to the
    press. We are fully involved in the Wolfpack API (in fact more involved
    than any other company).  We just failed to work with the press, we're
    correcting that.
    
    8. Microsoft MUST play neutral to hardware vendors.  However, they can
    and HAVE announced Alphas as being the fastest this or the fastest
    that.  For instance we were proclaimed the fasted Exchange server at
    the Exchange launch at Networld + Interop.  Doing this, by the way, is
    unbelievably time consuming, benching, preaching, lawyering, writing,
    coaxing, etc.
    
    9. Exchange (from note 4535).  It IS the Digital company strategy. 
    There are specific cases where we'll recommend other products (UNIX or
    VMS environments, etc.) but primarily we're going with the volume
    seller - makes sense to me. And this means internal use as well. 
    Probably about 3000 internal users so far.  Get used to it - besides,
    it's pretty good.
    
    10. Microsoft runs a zillion events and campaigns of all kinds.  Nor
    are they centrally organized.  We do the best we can to capture
    leadership positioning in them, but we simply can't get them all.  And
    HP is hot on our heels the whole time.  We think we did pretty good at
    the Internet Developers Conference, we will at TechEd next week, and
    we'll have a big win at the Developers Days in June, as well as, get
    this folks, about 400 roadshow events in Q4 alone!
    
    Do we have a perfect relationship? No.  Is it better than anyone else
    has with Microsoft.  Way Yes.  Will we make a fortune here?  It's ours
    to lose.
    
    Me - well, I bet my career on it.
    
    I'm a happy guy.
    
    Ken Berkun
    Alliance Team
    DECwest
    
    

    Actuallon't really mean stop, I mean let's stop the mis-information and
    have a positive forward moving discussion of a great relationship that
    already pays  a significant percantage of your salary and will pay more
    over time.
    
    Comments welcome.
    
    ken b.
    

    My concern with all of this is that a company with world-wide
    electronic communications to 60,000+ employees is *NOT* communicating
    the strategy well internally.  And if we're not doing it internally,
    we're not doing it well externally.
    
    Everybody in the world wants an 'alliance' with Microsoft.  Unless we
    differentiate ourselves we will simply be another "me too".
    
    We have absolutely world-class excellent products.  We can not sell
    them at times to save our lives.  One of the most critical behaviours
    which we need to change is the ability to sell our abilities.
    
    ---
    
    As an aside, regarding Exchange, etc., the prior reply mentioned
    marketing it 'where it made sense' etc., and using other products with
    installed bases of VAX, UNIX, etc.  I thought that Digital did have a
    significant ALL-IN-1 base and that it's likely that a mix of Teamlinks
    and Exchange would work well.  The significance is that we need
    reliable transport and delivery in a heterogeneous client and server
    environment.  It's unlikely that Exchange will serve all purposes - I
    just hope that we don't get religious about it. 
    
    j

     IBM - Recently won contract To supply 25,000 PCs and 1,200 servers to
    Merrill
            Lynch
            {The Wall Street Journal, 17-Apr-96, p. B7}
       IBM worked with Microsoft on the transaction.
     

    
    
    
    RE: .-1
    
    Is the previous note supposed to show that Microsoft is not being a
    good partner?  Do you think Microsoft has some sort of special thing
    whereby they recommend only Digital hardware, preferably Alpha? 
    Microsoft sells software and they will work with anyone who can
    leverage their software.  IBM, like Digital is more schizophrenic (well
    at least we used to sell software  ;^) ), they sell both hardware and
    software, but obviously the fact that OS/2 won't be running on these
    PCs hasn't blinded their PC division from making this huge sale.
    
    Microsoft sells more NT on Compaq than any other vendor ... despite all
    our noise about being "the" NT vendor.  Until we figure out how to sell
    NT on Intel we're destined to be left in Compaq's dust in the NT
    platform game.  I think senior management recognized this and hence the
    move of the NT PM&D to the PCBU.
    
    

    No - the note about IBM & Microsoft was just to illustrate that a
    relationship with Microsoft is "so what" to a point.  
    
    My point is that we need to use it to leverage sales/revenue and I
    don't quite see that in the food chain yet.
    
    I distrust all the 'relationship managers' and think that they should
    have a 'sales manager' role, budget and quota.....
    

    
    Is there a MicroSoft Exchange notes.file?  Is their someone out there
    who could call me, I have some quick questions about MicroSoft
    Exchage.
    
    1, being - I really need to make the M.E. window much much larger.  Not
    the font, but the whole window.  I have all ready gone into my set and
    changed my settings, now I have all these huge icons, but M.E. will not
    get larger. I have bad eye sight and I need the window/M.E. incons much
    larger.
    
    I have a new other questions as well.
    
    Louisa
    225-4242