Conference 7.286::digital

    See all the other topics here and in IBMPC-95 about Starion.
    
    			Steve

    I just called PCs Compleat to get a del date on my 940 (ordered 10/19),
    Dec 7 is the date I got.  So with any luck, I'll have it before
    Christmas (not Thanksgiving as noted the previous time I called).  
    
    I know that PCC is at the mercy of DEC, but....
    
    Chris

    You Know,
       You can't blame PC Compleat for this situation with the Starions. I
    to am at the mercy of Digital's delivery.  They get told by us to sell
    them and keep accepting orders, they do warn you about history when you
    place it.  Then they can't deliver due to the supplier.  I have gotten
    some insight as to why the delays on the line.  Turns out three system
    flaws have caused this situation.
    	1) Starion running Windows 95 - Initial delay (remember)
    	2) Shorts in the system on audio - Causing Noise/scratch sound
    	3) Hard disk problem - Forced them to change HD to the next larger
    	   size (1.6G).
    
    	Turns out all of these have happened at different times in the
    product cycle with the HD being the latest.  The first one prevent them
    from strating to ship, the second one has been noted by owners in this
    note.
    
    	IS THEIR ANY ON IN THE PCBU THAT CAN SHED LIGHT ON THIS????
        Which Plant manufactures these systems?
    	Inquiring mind would like to know.
    
    I made the decision to buy a Digital system but If Santa can't put it
    under the tree then he will have put a COMPAC or Aptiva under it for
    the kiddos.
    
    
    
    

    
    Isn't the Starion series a Digital 'branded' product targeted for
    retail outlets and not actually manufactured by Digital ?
    
    This may be a factor in delivery status as opposed to a product we make
    in our own plants ?
       
    [EOB]

    I ordered my second Starion from PC Compleat this week and they told me
    that manufacturing is now occuring in Canada with delivery times being
    more accurate.  I ordered the Starion 931 this time and have a 930
    already.
    
    While not totally committing, they sounded more reassured that my
    delivery would be before Christmas even though I don't have that
    requirement.  I do feel the retail line should have preference over EPP
    but also believe they should be able to forecast a delivery date and
    meet it too.  This is an area where we could show a competitive
    advantage if we are good.

    "Digital Equipment Corp.'s $2,598 Starion 920 is marketed as a
    general-purpose family machine.  The 75-MHz Pentium-based PC rates high
    in user comfort features, has good sound, and was able to run all
    tested software titles without a hitch.  On our benchmark tests,
    however, it was a below-average performer. ...
    
    A slow hard disk and lack of L2 cache contributed to the unit's low
    benchmark test scores, some of which were the lowest of its CPU group
    (Digital says a speedier Maxtor disk will be standard by the time you
    read this).  Video-sampling tests showed smearing and a high number of
    dropped frames.  But the news wasn't all bad:  The JBL speakers
    produced rich sound with only minimal bass distortion. ..."
    
    
    The Benchmarks were:
    Benchmark			Score
    WINSTONE 96			25
    GRAPHICS WINMARK 96		6.0
    DISK WINMARK 96		463
    CPUmark16			110
    CPUmark32			106	
    CD-ROM WINMARK 96		337
    
    The Price/Performance Indes: One of the lowest on the chart, among 32
    tested.
    
    

    The Starion is Digital-designed and had been assembled by SCI, a
    company many vendors use for retail-type PCs.  I had not heard that
    manufacturing moved to Kanata (not sure that would be an advantage...)
    
    					Steve

    Thanks, some whining is in order, but if it gets here before Christmas,
    I'll survive.  The 1.6g drive will help ease the pain.
    
    						CR

    re: .6
    
    Can you post some other PC scores against the benchmark?  Mostly
    interested in the higher end.  The numbers for the Starion by
    themselves don't tell me too much.  Thanks,
    
    Bob

    Note that the system tested by PC Magazine was the Starion 920, not the
    940 which is the topic of this note.  The 930 and 940 have L2 cache
    and 64-bit graphics so are significantly faster.
    
    				Steve

    
    re -.1
    
    That PC Magazine article is highly recommended for a quick shopping
    guide.
    
    Unfortunate for me, but the *only* reason I would consider buying a 
    Digital PC is that I work for Digital. I know, What?, think about it,
    look at the skill set and resources we have available to support the
    product. As an employee, I can get information, anytime, anyplace.
    
    I have yet to buy one, however. The price is just not at that magic
    number yet.
    
    -Mike Z.
    -Mike Z.

    I also saw the PC Mag. article and was a bit disappointed with the
Starion's performance.  However, when I saw that several of the models
that they were comparing against were Pentium 90's, 100's and up, I was
confused.  Why did they not then compare a 930 or 940?  I also noted that
when they listed the price of the computers, all the prices listed for
all but one company was the "street price".  Guess what, the Digital price
was the "list price".  So, you can't place a lot of faith in the rankings
done by a magazine unless you check to make sure that they are comparing
apples with apples, and not something else.


My .02 cents.

-rob

    Yeah, I've brought the "street price" vs. "list price" issue up
    before (I help with the magazine review submittals for commercial
    desktop and notebooks, but not Starion).  COMPAQ frequently gives
    the magazines "street price", even on their commercial line, which
    it turns out really pisses off the resellers.  Perhaps they're big
    enuf (or their business model is different enuf) that they can
    get away with it.  Anyhow, I don't necessarily agree we should
    give "list prices" either, but was told that's what we should
    continue to do (at least for commercial desktop).  .02 Kratz 
    

If you read the beginning of the article, you'll see that they gave the
manufacturers a $2500 cutoff, though there was some flexibility applied.  The
920 was the best we had for about that price, so we sent it, but other
companies sent systems costing hundreds more - and PC Magazine took them.

But even so, there were cheaper machines that did better than the 920.

				Steve

    
    re -.1 cutoff on price.
    
    So I guess you all learned something about sending machines to PC
    Magazine with a definiative lock on the price, eh?
    
    Boy, that irks me. If PC Mag said here is the magic number, anything
    coming over that should *NOT* have even been evaluated. Period.
    
    -Mike Z.

    Update on the Starion delivery...
    
    I just called PCsCompleat.  They still have the 12/8 delivery date on
    their system.  There's no confirmation from DEC on that date.  The guy
    didn't have much faith that they would get them tomorrow.
    
    He did mention 2 things...first, Bob Palmer is also waiting and that 
    we are regular customers (we don't wait behind non DEC customers). 
    
    So, I don't know how long Mr. Palmer has been waiting, but my order has
    been in since 10/19.  Gee, I figured I'd have this in plenty of time
    for Christmas...now I'm not sure.
    
     

    waiting 7 weeks for a PC ? with todays product lifecycles I'd
    say cancel your order, this model will probably go EOL (End Of Life)
    in the near future - and you'l be able to buy one thru the Want-Ad
    for half the price :^(

    PCcompleat called me last night, they did get a shipment, and mine is
    scheduled for Tuesday delivery.  Ho Ho Ho
    					
    						CR

    I just called PC Compleat and they say there's none shipping according
    to her records.  They told me to call next week to see if DEC has a new
    delivery date.
    
    Who knows....  BTW,,,,they don't have any 133 DEC pentiums, so I can't
    even cancel my order and order a 941.
    
    I'll try again next week.

    It may turn out that gratitude for ones circumstances is in
    order, here.  As an MCS FE, I am not very much impressed by
    the Starions, they generate a disproportionate number of 
    service calls in our area.  Whoever makes them for us skimps
    on the fit and finish QA - lots of sharp, undeburred edges 
    to cut the unwary.  We are getting royally beat up by the 
    number of customers who need warrenty service either right
    out of the box, or within days of first power-up.
    [dale]
    

Well, that does it.  I was thinking about buying two Starions right after Christmas, but
looks like I'll have to look at another vendor.  It's too bad.  How many chances have we
had to get it right?

BC

  My wife and I both work for Digital.  I am a GPS programmer wanting to 
  explore NT and my wife spends a great deal of time documenting in her 
  position as a project manager.  We have steadily grown frustrated with our 
  organization's reluctance to provide us with PC equipment to adequately
  perform our jobs, other than the 386 25Mhz machines that we currently have 
  on our desks.  Sound familiar?

  So we ordered a Starion 940 from PCs Compleat.  I thought the $2266 price 
  was worth the wait.  Based on previous replies in this notes file, I was 
  anticipating receiving the PC in about 6 weeks which would be this week.  
  This long wait has given me some insight to the serious problems that
  Digital must overcome if it wants to succeed in the home PC market.  

  I recall another Digital employee, perhaps in this notes file, suggesting 
  that the SLT should all go out and buy a PC from Digital AND a PC from
  each of our competitors.  This would be a valuable learning experience
  that would pay for the cost of these purchases.  Go ahead SLT, the true 
  benchmark is a few phone calls away.  Take notes of what each company does 
  well and what company does poorly.  Look at our operation, take names, 
  reengineer Digital processes to improve in areas where we are deficient 
  (and there are many).

  Being a Digital employee for 8 years, I am not proud of the fact that I 
  have canceled my Starion order, and have purchased a PC from one of our 
  competitors.  But in purchasing a DELL computer, I have learned alot about 
  what Digital is doing wrong.   In my search for a Starion alternative, I 
  called several PC companies.  I rattled off my config wish list to the 
  salesperson and immediately got a price.  Both MICRON and DELL promised 
  delivery within 2 weeks and this being just before Christmas.  These
  companies seem to have their processes well engineered.  

  Issues that Digital needs to address regarding the Starion line:

  o Delivery/Supply.  2 months lead time is unrealistic.  Here in Colorado
    Springs, I can not find a Starion in stock at a retail outlet (Circuit
    City, Sams).  And yes, these retail stores do have are competitors PC's in 
    stock.  I think we should applaud our customers for waiting 2 months for
    a Starion delivery from PCs Compleat.  There will not be a Digital PC 
    under the Christmas tree for little Billy and as a result we caused 
    irreparable damage to our image.  

  o NT certification. Based on a knowledgeable source, Digital requested  
    that Microsoft remove the Starion from the NT compatability list because
    of NT driver problems with the peripherals.  NT is the future, so 
    let's work out these problems and get the Starion back on this list. 

  o Changes in Configurations.  This month I ordered a Starion 917  for a 
    relative and was told that it had a 28.8 fax modem.  Based on the 
    PCs compleat catalog all the Starions provide a voice mail/answering/ 
    speaker phone capability.  When the 917 arrived, I couldn't figure
    out why when I dialed out using the phone dialer why the microphone
    and external speakers could not be used.  The sparse documentation
    did not cover this at all and only from the Starion helpdesk did I 
    find out that the 917 DOES NOT offer this capability.  Instead of 
    the telecommander communication modem, the 917 offers only a 28.8 BOCA 
    fax/modem.  This was not in the catalog, not on our homepage and PCs
    compleat said nothing about this when they ran through the configuration 
    list.  There are other notes within the DECstation notesfile of 
    configuration jostling.

  o Documentation.  The 1/4" thick user manual and on-line documentation is a 
    joke.  A good portion of the manual is devoted to ergonomics.  Get real.  
    Where's the information that a user really needs.  When will we learn that 
    good documentation pays for itself in reduced calls to our helpdesk?

  o Starion Helpdesk.  We are improving in this area, but need to continue
    to improve.  Average speed of answer is below 10 minutes, but we still 
    have maximum wait time greater than 50 minutes.  Our Customers are forced
    to wade through a series of self-help VAR menus before receiving a live
    body.  After making a couple of calls to the helpdesk, I'm not sure this 
    is a good thing.  

  o Flexibility.  I think it is good to offer standard configurations for those
    novice PC users who don't know a MB from RAM.  But I was impressed with how 
    I could request a PC from DELL and MICRON that is tailored to my needs. 

  The bottom line is that if we are serious about competing in the home PC 
  market, we need to address these problems NOW or we should get out of this
  business and concentrate on our corporate PC line.  

    I too was looking to purchase a Digital PC, but after reading these
    string(s) and making quite a few phone calls myself, I bought a
    competitors machine. Granted it is not the latest and greatest, but
    then neither was the price. I have called once for a real question (I
    already thought I right and I was) and to see how they were vs dealing
    with digital. We still have a long way to go. And I'm beginning to
    think that the PC Compleat deal was not a good one.
    
    As another MCS type, I must agree with a preious reply, way too many of
    our PC's are dead or dying on delivery day, and I just removed the
    band-aid from the latest slice-on-a-decpc-box injury.
    
    .mike.

   >> As another MCS type, I must agree with a preious reply, way too many of
   >> our PC's are dead or dying on delivery day, and I just removed the
   >> band-aid from the latest slice-on-a-decpc-box injury.
    
    You know, I'm hearing this more and more.  It bothers me and I'm
    beginning to wonder if its starting to bother the upper layers of
    the PCBU.
    
    Do any of you MCS guys pass this information along and, if so, what's
    the reaction been?
    

    Well, after waiting much to long and 2 changes I canceled my Starion
    930/931/932.  I ordered an NEC 9522 from PC Compleat just a slight bit
    more but less than any retail outlet out there, the software bundle is
    by far the largest I have seen and it does include MPEG video along
    with the duplex answering machine.  I ordered today and they shipped
    today.  I should receive it tomorrow or Thursday.   Maybe in five years
    when I buy my Third PC I will try Digital again.
    
    Last night I went to three outlets to check out systems, all three of
    them had Starions on display, they seemed like a good machine and
    priced right with all the others.  But none of the stores had stock on
    any model except 910's.  
    
    Les

I simply do not understand how anyone thinks that it might be
remotely acceptable to have delivery leadtimes approaching 50%
of the product lifetime!

Think about it.  When was the last time you saw a PC model last more than
6 months?  Average is probably closer to 4 now.  But we seem to think
that having 60-90 day delivery leadtimes is OK.

IT IS NOT OK.

IT IS LUDICROUS.

This is just not the way the retail model works, and if it doesn't work,
it will not exist long.

Kevin

    AND..... BTW... that 60-90 day leadtime is BUSINESS DAYS, folks, which
    translates into real-time of 80 to 120 days....
    
    I agree..... totally rediculous...
    
    Just mine.....
    
    Toodles......JPs
    

It also probably explains why the flyers in the Sunday Globe, etc., have
zero Digital systems in them these days (again).  (i.e. delivery probs.
effectively reduce your indirect advertising...)

    A few notes back someone questoned hearing that MCS people see a lot of
    broken DEC PC's
    
    You might note that customers rarely call an MCS person out to tell them
    how well their system is working. One assumes there are some DEC PCs
    that do work, and dont have to call MCS.
    
    Of course, I cant prove that from personal experience, as I have a
    generic clone PC that I bought cheap. And never had to call service on
    it either.

There was comic in today's paper in Sally Forth that had them looking for 
a new PC. The salesman said:

"there are two kinds of computer, those to the right are obsolete, these
on the left will be obsolete in 6 months".

liesl

    Called just minutes ago to check on the delivery date of my Starion. 
    Guess what...it shipped yesterday.  I should have it tomorrow (extra
    day to compansate for UPS Christmas delivery increases).  
    
    I hope I'm a happy customer come the weekend....

    
    For another data point:
    
    I ordered a Starion 931 in mid-november.  I called last Monday, but PCs
    Compleat didn't have a delivery date.  I decided to start looking for a
    replacement, but Friday the computer came.
    
    Set it up Saturday, worked right out of the box no problem.  Windows
    '95 setting itself up looked pretty impressive too - I don't mind
    waiting the extra time for a computer that works first time with
    little/no setup effort.  The only thing untested is the fax/modem.
    
    dan

    My 940 arrived last monday, got all my SW moved over.  Windows95 is
    nicer with new install vs upgrade.  Everything is working fine, except
    ocassionally a modem parameter changes and my audio goes away.  If i
    fumble with the settings for a while, it starts working again. not sure
    what the problem is yet.  Gotta love it.   CR