Conference 7.286::digital

    What kind of equipment do you have, that you can't read
    Postscript documents on line, are we talking VT100s here?  If
    so, I would address that issue, IMHO.
    

I don't have a postscript viewer on Windows NT.

    Ghostscript for Windows NT is pretty good - check out the MS-WINDOWS
    notes conference.
    
    						Michael
    

    I haven't seen a Postscript view for X-Windows that works well
    enough to use for any purpose other than verifying this is the file
    you want to print. (The one I'm specifically familiar with is CDA
    Viewer.) Without the ability to incrementally zoom into the document
    to make smaller fonts readable, you (or at least I) can't use CDA
    Viewer to actually read a document with, say, 10 point fonts (and
    I've got a 21" monitor). 

Ghostview and Ghostscript work much better than the dxvdoc/CDAviewer
at least for me.

And the current version of ghostscript handles PDF too.  How do Digital's
viewers do on PDF?

Freeware! love it and live it!

___Pete

    Somewhat suprisingly the cost dynamics in paper have not yet completely
    trickled down into small volume office paper. Although across the who;e
    organization it's not doubt starting to add up. The people who are
    really hurting are the big volume users, publishers, mail order
    catalogs (my wife's current job is to try to figure out how to sustain
    revenue levels while printing 2 to 3 million few copies of her company's
    catalogs), printing service bureaus (know of one that runs BIG SNI
    laser printers at >300PPM and streams the output straight into fedex
    bags).
    
    Where I think we'll see it worst in in our consumption of corrugated
    cardboard for shipping stuff, especially thinks like the boxes wrapped
    around software updates. 
     

	reading essentially sequential material online is impossible;
	ever try to look in the index of a manual, find what you're
	looking for then jump to the right place in the manual using an
	online ps viewer? until such documents are delivered in hypertext
	format (html, bookreader, pdf, worldview, dynatext, whatever)
	I'll stick to printing them; ghostscript doesn't cut it (and
	dxvdoc certainly doesn't)....that doesn't stop me from printing
	them in a more efficient manner (N-up, two sided, etc)....

	_kelley

    I thought with all this information technology, we now only have
    paperless offices...
    
    :-(
    

    RE: .8
    
    Yeah, we should be doing our manuals and guides etc. in PDF format,
    *and* we should have a PDF and PS viewer for stations like mine, a
    VXT2000. Despite my PC skills and knowledge, I do not have a PC on my
    desk, but I do have occasional shared access to one.
    
    Laurie.

         I use CDA viewer regularly for ps viewing. I use an Alpha machine
    2 cpu's running vms and it screams. It can be a bit of a pain when
    looking at a document and trying to figure out wich page you want to
    view. With our sometimes overworked LPS20's it's the only way to go.
    
    bob

    re .11
    
    Remind me to buy stock when your optometrist goes public.

    Interestingly, there was an article in the Globe yesterday about how
    the rsing cost of paper is putting a real strain on public school
    budgets resulting in paper rationing in some schools.

Yes - I've already seen this in my son's school.  The PTO (of which I'm
treasurer) now has to buy its own paper as well (we pour about $15K into the
school each year.)

					Steve

I've used these PS viewers for X with reasonable success...

psview (1)              - A PostScript file previewer and display server
xpsview (1)             - An OSF/MOTIF PostScript Previewer

Also consider the Virtual Paper project, which you can read more about at: 
    http://src-www.pa.dec.com:80/SRC/virtualpaper/


man psview

   local                                                            PSVIEW(1)

   NAME
     psview - A PostScript file previewer and display server

   SYNTAX
     psview [switches] [file[.ps|.PS]]

   DESCRIPTION

     PsView is a PostScript file previewer. It can either use the Display
     PostScript extension of DIGITAL's X11 server (Ultrix Worksystem Software
     release 4.2 or higher) or the public-domain "ghostscript" PostScript
     interpreter (release 2.4 or higher).

     PsView is designed to work very much like the xdvi DVI file previewer.
     The program works best on PostScript files that follow Adobe's
     structuring conventions (PS-Adobe-2.0). Other PostScript files can also
     be browsed, but then scrolling and paging backward are much slower.

     The user gives commands to PsView using both the mouse and the keyboard.
     These commands can control the size of the page, the way the page is fit
     to the viewing window, the portion of the page selected for viewing, the
     way one page is replaced by another, and many other options. These are
     decribed in detail below. The "Help" and "?" keys give a quick on-line
     summary of these commands.
�
?...
     to the viewing window, the portion of the page selected for viewing, the
     way one page is replaced by another, and many other options. These are
     decribed in detail below. The "Help" and "?" keys give a quick on-line
     summary of these commands.

...

man xpsview

   NAME
     xpsview - An OSF/MOTIF PostScript Previewer

   SYNTAX
      xpsview [<toolkit options>] [<PsView options>] [<file>]

   DESCRIPTION

     "xpsview" is an OSF/MOTIF PostScript previewer. "xpsview" does not
     handle Display PostScript directly but forks a PsView process (see
     psview(1)).

     You can change the document's bounding box (i.e. visible part) by
     selecting a region with your mouse an holding down the "SHIFT" key, and
     revert to the former bounding box using the "Revert" button.

     The "Zoom" button zooms the current bounding box out by a factor of 2.
     This is the only way you can enlarge the initial document's bounding
     box.

     The "Undo" button undoes any change (scale factor, bounding box, viewing
     mode...).

...


   AUTHOR
     Name:         Francois Bourdoncle
     Organization: DIGITAL Paris Research Laboratory
     Email:        [email protected]

 

    Re: .17
    
    I never thought I'd say this, but I now read documents in
    softcopy virtually all the time since I started using the
    Virtual Paper software (Lectern).
    

	Virtual Paper sounds good. I'm looking forward to a Windows (NT)
	version.

								mike

    If majority of the postscript files are created by Word and if those
    could not be accessed sensibly via all of the available PS viewer
    programs,  I can not envision a paperless office any day soon.
    
    The Ghostscript PDF support in Digital UNIX will NOT let you view the
    files (i.e. ghostview does NOT work on .PDF files).  I saw an Adobe
    advertisement touting advantage of PDF over HTML and showed two
    screens from NASA Space Center.  I was amused to see that HTML window
    under Netscape was easily readable while the the PDF screen could not
    be read.
    
    - Vikas

    Horn toot
    
    We've been creating Sales Powerpacks for several years now.  
    Well organized compendiums of Sales and Marketing Literature, that
    run (license free, and rock solid stable) on desk-top and lap-top
    PC's.  We've been routinely putting out 4 - 5,000 pages of literature 
    to the field that they can print, fax, cut, copy, paste,
    annotate, bookmark, browse, and display with ease.  Finding the content 
    is easy with either full text search, or just point and click through 
    a simple graphic menu structure.  When we've printed out one of these
    'things' it literally eats up a case of paper.  Something no-one 
    want to carry around, much less browse through.
    
    Distribution of the application depends on the end user, so we've
    gone out over floppy, the net, and CD-ROM.  All of which are
    cost effective compared to paper, especially in light of cost
    of printing, warehousing, shipping, and time.
    
    The results are positive and cost effective.  Just using a single
    client as an example we've eliminated 4,500 pages of hardcopy,
    times 1,000 clients, times 7 releases - I think that's over
    31 million pages of print...
    
    I like to think that we've not only saved DEC paper and print
    time and costs, but also made the work environment more effective.
    
    Roger Bowker    

    RE: .9
    
    >>I thought with all this information technology, we now only have
    >>paperless offices...
    
    Reminds me of a colleague who once said: "When they dig up this plant
    in about 1.000 years they'll probably say:
    'Hey, these paper factories were damn well automated'
    
    Peter
    

> The Ghostscript PDF support in Digital UNIX will NOT let you view the
> files (i.e. ghostview does NOT work on .PDF files).

Try the gs command alone.  It ought to work that way.  It's a shame that gs
isn't able to handle PDF properly under ghostview, but it DOES work
standalone, and DOES convert PDF to PostScript -- which you can then view
under ghostview.

___Pete

   This couldn't have anything to do about some owl could it? 

   >
   >This couldn't have anything to do about some owl could it? 
   >
    
    Nope -- the old growth forest that are cut down aren't ground up for
    paper -- that would be a waste of beautiful, gigantic logs. Actually,
    they're sent to Japan, where they're used to make oriented strandboard
    -- that cheap plywood substitiute sold at "Lumber stores" like        
    Grossman's.

>   This couldn't have anything to do about some owl could it? 

I understand there is actually plenty of timber on the market (low prices),
but other costs of paper production have gone up.  [Home construction prices
for example haven't suddenly shot up due to a lumber shortage]

Realize also, the owl is just a symbol for a bigger question:
Are we going to keep cutting trees until there are none left
so that some people can make more money?  If not, where and how
do we draw the line?

  "Use less paper, cut fewer trees"

                  - Chinese proverb

> Realize also, the owl is just a symbol for a bigger question:
> Are we going to keep cutting trees until there are none left
> so that some people can make more money?  If not, where and how
> do we draw the line?
    
    Seems to me it should be up to whoever owns the land. You want to
    preserve a forest, buy it.
    
    Personally I find PS viewers cumbersome, slow and difficult to use.
    On the bright side, I don't do that much printing. When I DO go get
    a listing it always seems that somebody's printed their days' email.
    Wonder what they do with all that paper...
    
      John

  I'm surprised that Digital has not yet been affected by the higher cost of
paper re paper used in printers and copiers. We buy this paper by the pallet-
ful. Not a "large" volume compared to publishing houses, but certainly enough
to show up on somebody's budget. Maybe it has not yet become an issue because
we are still using stock bought 6-12 months ago. But I expect it will become
an issue within a year, unless the cost of paper drops sharply in the next few
months.
  How do we buy printer/copier paper in the U.S.? Is it centralized for the
entire Northeast, or by division, or by facility group?

    On my last consulting assignment at a well known but will remain
    unamed insurance company, they did not use page flags to identify
    the users.  No doubt to save paper.  Someone walked off with a page
    of my output that was part of a final test.  The test had to be
    redone.  It cost them the equivalent of about six cases or sixty
    reams to save a sheet of paper.
    
    If paper cost becomes a problem, just get rid of more people.  You
    can save the equivilent of about forty cases of paper per week for
    every one you get rid of.

    > Realize also, the owl is just a symbol for a bigger question:
    > Are we going to keep cutting trees until there are none left
    > so that some people can make more money?  If not, where and how
    > do we draw the line?
    
    >>>    Seems to me it should be up to whoever owns the land. You want to
    >>>    preserve a forest, buy it.
    
    Hmmm.  Seems to _me_ the logging debate is over logging on federal lands.  
    A conservative (idealogically) approach doesn't really hold water here.
    
    ...and I tend to print stuff out and read it at home...
    
    dan

I agree most PS previewers are clumbsy.  But Adobe Acrobat was designed
for on-line viewing of complex documents (thumbnails, hypertext links,
searching, article threads, zoom, color, etc...).  I find it very useful.
Once I scan a document for the particular pages I need, I'll often print
just those pages.

--

>    Seems to me it should be up to whoever owns the land. You want to
>    preserve a forest, buy it.

Much of the land in question belongs to the public (government held),
so the public needs to decide.

Beyond this, trees are part of a communities well being.  Just because
a river crosses your land, doesn't mean you can take all the water.
Why should forests be different?

- Peter

>                          -< Everyone has their own threshold >-

So does every planet, only one of which in the entire universe is
(at least currently) known to support life.
    
>    Seems to me it should be up to whoever owns the land. You want to
>    preserve a forest, buy it.

Hmm.  And who owns the ozone layer?  Who "owns" the ecosystems that
collapse that we all rely on as a result of private use of land?
Who "owns" the fisheries that have collapsed or are in the process
of collapsing?

re: .31 Trees are a renewable resource, whereas water isn't necessarily 
"renewable."

    trouble is "renewing" an old growth forest takes 200 years...
    i guess it's all in how you look at "renewable"...
    
    					da ve

The Charles Osgood story mentioned that paper companies built expensive
facilities in the 1980s and now, instead of building new facilities, they're
paying off the cost of the older ones.

I suppose this is another reason why paper recycling has become profitable.

Paul

    
    rep .33. 
    
    >>31 Trees are a renewable resource, whereas water isn't necessarily
      "renewable."
    
    
    I think that most of the "clean" water we have today probably went
    through the anatomy of some, perhaps several dinosaurs.
    
    I tend to agree, if you want to preserve something that is privately
    held, you should buy it.  If not you don't really want to preserve it,
    you just want to tell someone else what to do with his/her property.
    
    As for federal land, the public should have a say in how if at all it
    is developed.  But as we elect officials, who then get whined and dined
    by many special interest groups, receiving trips, gifts, etc, and then
    vote for the special interests interests, we don't have any say at all.
    
    How can we tell Columbia, Brazil, Costa Rica, etc, not to cut down
    "their" rainforests, when we have cleared most of ours, and continue
    to do so.
    
    But the earth will bounce back!  If we kill the oceans, ozone, cut down
    the rain forests, all as that will happen is there will be mass
    extinctions, us included.  Then in 10,000 or less years, the rain
    forests will have grown back, the ozone will be fixed, the oceans will
    be clean, and insects will be the dominant life form on the planet.
    Not to different from today!!
    
    
    And I'm an optimist!
    

    /art

>    But the earth will bounce back!  If we kill the oceans, ozone, cut down
>    the rain forests, all as that will happen is there will be mass
>    extinctions, us included.  Then in 10,000 or less years, the rain
>    forests will have grown back, the ozone will be fixed, the oceans will
>    be clean, and insects will be the dominant life form on the planet.
>    Not to different from today!!

Not necessarily.  (I remember reading that some [all?] atmospheric models
show two or more stable points, and only one of them is in the "habitable"
range.  Depending on how far you push things, you can push them over a hump
to a radically different local minimum.)

    re .36
    
    I love the thought of public officials getting "whined and dined" by
    special interest groups. How apropos!
    
    Cathy

RE: 33

>>>re: .31 Trees are a renewable resource, whereas water isn't necessarily 
>>>"renewable."

There is an article in the National Geographic published within the last 
couple of years that states that Mississippi river water is consumed and 
"re-newed" about a dozen times by various riverside communities, before it 
finally empties into the Gulf.

There are even some desert animals that short circuit the process and 
"re-new" water from their own urine.


							-Paul

    
    Reply .26 regarding low prices for timber doesn't square with my
    experience.  I saw that prices for dimension lumber DOUBLED
    over a one year period (1-2 years ago ??).  The reason that home 
    construction prices haven't increased more than they have is that
    lumber is not really a large part of construction costs (I believe I
    heard 10-20%).
    
    Many builders are now using steel studs for residential construction
    because of the increased cost of wood ones.  You can't make very good
    paper from steel, however.

    Let's see if we can't get back to the topic of high paper prices
    affecting Digital.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Bob - Co-moderator DIGITAL