Conference 7.286::digital

    The format for business cards is:                                
    
    [email protected]
    
    For me it is:
    
    [email protected]
    
    The item that is not allowed is a node name.  So an address like:
    
    user_name@node_name.dec.com
    
    is not allowed.

    .1 is mostly correct. The two forms that are allowed are:
    
    Internet: [email protected]
    
    or
    
    Internet: [email protected]
    
    What is NOT allowed is [email protected] or
    [email protected] or anything other than the above.
    
    The rule is only three levels allowed after the @ unless it's
    "site.mts.dec.com".

    Obviously, you should check to see that one of these forms will work
    for your account before commiting it to cards. Neither of those
    formats works for everybody.

Is there some corporate rule or guideline that covers the display of
an internet address on Digital business cards?



  Dick Gumbel

    I just filled mine out the way I wanted them and they printed it.  I've
    been handing them out for years.
    
    				--Doug
    				  [email protected]

    The theory behind the restriction goes something like this --
    
    1. Some node names reflect unannounced projects and other
    proprietary information that shouldn't be revealed outside the
    company, and ...
    
    2. Exporting information about our internal nodenames gives out
    information that crackers could use to penetrate the Enet; the mail
    gateways hide this information.

    ... I hear that poor sick young Craig Shergold is pining away, hoping
    to collect as many Digital business cards as possible -- but only with
    Internet addresses on 'em...
    

> Is there some corporate rule or guideline that covers the display of an
> internet address on Digital business cards?

Yes, the corporate security rules give the forms of Internet addresses
within Digital that are officially permissible on business cards.

___Pete
[email protected]

    Sigh... I thought this was long dead... Let's not forget too, that any
    mail sent out of the Corporation arrives as:
    
    [email protected]
         ^^^^
    
    Laurie.

The simple solution is to put a true TCP/IP-style address
on your card.  Since IP doesn't use the word "node", then
obviously what's on your card won't be a node name.

Having said that, *my* business card does contain
my DECnet node name -- it says  [email protected].
No-one objected, and it seems pretty commonplace in
this building to have that form of address on your
card.

>>    Sigh... I thought this was long dead... 


It always comes back to life.

>>    Let's not forget too, that any
>>    mail sent out of the Corporation arrives as:

>>    [email protected]

Get the same thing posting responses to newsgroups.

bjm

As far as I can tell, in the *new* Digital, we basically do what we want
when it comes to cards, as long as it doesn't say "Bob Palmer, CEO".  My
card is [email protected].  

I spent two years writing my fax number, pager number, and I-Net address on
cards.  The customer is best served if they can actually contact you, IMHO.

								Brent

>    Sigh... I thought this was long dead... Let's not forget too, that any
>    mail sent out of the Corporation arrives as:
>    
>    [email protected]
         ^^^^

Not true!  All mail I send out of the corporation has a return address
of 
	[email protected]

which is what my business card reads, and is permissible by corporate
guidelines.

But on the other hand, I do my all mail processing on a state-of-the-art
operating system, unlike most of this corporation :-)

Ram

    Its kinda silly that we can't official put our "enet" address on
    business cards, but it appears in print in our manuals.  Many of
    Digital's manuals and RBIs say that if you have documentation
    issues, send them to "[email protected]".  The Pascal
    documentation is full of them.
    
    I put my "enet" address in my Internet mails/newsgroup posts/etc.
    When my current stock of cards runs out, if I can't get my "enet"
    address on them via Digital, I'll just go down to Office Max, get
    them printed how I like them and submit an expense voucher...
    
    				-John

    re: -.1
    
    "Getting your job done for Digital in spite of Digital!".
    
    That's the spirit, John!

	lets see if I can summarize this so everything is clear:

	- there *is* an official rule against putting an email address
	  which contains a Easynet nodename (DECnet or IP) on your
	  business card...this rule is in place despite the fact that
	  email replies and/or usenet news entries may expose said addresses

	- some groups choose to comply with this rule and some do not...
	  for whatever reason, highly visible groups that do not
	  comply with this rule do not seem to be at any risk i.e.
	  there is no enforcement from a corporate level 

	- adding to the confusion, there are current ways to avoid
	  "breaking the rule":

		1- use [email protected]; this
		   requires that your corporate MR address is correct
		2- use [email protected]; this requires that your
		   site has implemented a mail hub with appropriate
		   alias and MX records

	- also, there is an effort underway to implement [email protected]
	  style addresses...this effort is tied to ELF V3 and the
	  corporate X.500 projects...for more, see LJSRV2::INTERNET_TOOLS
	  thread 2458.*

	_kelley

    
    kelley -
    
    
    	If it's like any of our other "efforts", you and I are gonna be
    on Social Security before that is ever implemented. Of course, given
    the light of our new situation with billg, maybe well just put Exchange
    and Back Office everywhere and be done with it...
    
    
    		the Greyhawk

	gee Greyhawk, I was under the impression Wook Lee was making
	reasonable progress on [email protected], but I wouldn't be
	suprised either way how it turns out...history shows that Internet
	initiatives in this company sometimes move along quite abit
	faster than other things (say DECnet Phase V for example)...in any
	event, this has never bothered me as deeply as it does others...

	_kelley
	[email protected] (has always worked for me)
	[email protected] (corp. MR has me at two sites now ;-)
	[email protected] (may not be working right now)
	[email protected] (I'm sure this isn't working yet)
	[email protected] (whoops! ;-)
	[email protected] (when Wook's project is implemented)
	[email protected] (where I've lived for past 2 years)
	[email protected] (when I finish the mail hub here ;-)

    Today I got 2 Press Releases [because you requested to receive Press
    Releases in your Readers Choice profile].
    
    Both had contact names of:[email protected] and
                              [email protected]
    
    With notes to the Editor at the bottom ,so these are the real releases!

  My experience is that [email protected] works for most people and
[email protected] works for very few. There is a procedure that you can use
(on your own) to see how you are registered on your site's mail transport
system (which is what MTS stands for); I don't know off-hand what it is.

I use what works for me the enet.dec.com version - I can't waste time having
mail bounced because someone put [email protected] (is that
right?) and it gets bounced with a message saying "pick one".  

Hell, investor services spent real money (for some unknown reason 43 cents) to
mail me my sale confirmation because the automatic mail notification can't deal
with two Brian McCarthy's at the same site code.

Even the Elf V3 stuff ignores the middle initial when I enter it.  Comes up
with three matches - and the last, as I recall, is Mcarty not McCarthy.

All this about not puting your node name into your address
all seems a bit of a waste since ...

whenever I send mail out to people the system automatically
puts the return address in and it includes the node name.

Now, this may be just me but when I asked, there seemed to
be no way that the node could be removed from the return
address.

Anyone else noticed this?

The theory, as I understand it, is that you choose explicitly to send 
Internet mail and thus reveal your address, whereas with business cards,
though you do explicitly hand them out, distribution is more uncertain.  I
think this is illogical and just "head stuck in sand" absurdism.

				Steve

> The theory, as I understand it, is that you choose explicitly to send 
> Internet mail and thus reveal your address, whereas with business cards,
> though you do explicitly hand them out, distribution is more uncertain.  I
> think this is illogical and just "head stuck in sand" absurdism.

That's entirely backwards for me - I'm somewhat promiscuous with
email, but quite careful with business cards.  

    Steve's right, this *is* head-up-somewhere absurdism.  Ignore it. 
    Someone gonna repo my business cards for non-compliance? :^]
    
    Somebody, somewhere, is drawing a salary for coming up with this
    absurdness.  We have dogs out searching for them right now and, once
    found, will skin and eat them.  More as events warrant.
    
    								Tex

>>    Somebody, somewhere, is drawing a salary for coming up with this
>>    absurdness.  We have dogs out searching for them right now and, once
>>    found, will skin and eat them.  More as events warrant.

I only wish this kind of stuff happened.

bjm

    
    	Actually I prefer 'em roasted over an open fire liberally buttered
    with my special barbeque sauce, and eaten with crisp raw vegatables.
    The dogs *love* the bones.
    
    	
    		the Greyhawk

    That barbeque sauce had BETTER be special, Greyhawk, because we'se
    talkin 'bout heavily-seasoned, longtime treehuggin', dyed-in-the-wool,
    head-wedged-contortin', BUREAUCRAT.  Ain't nuthin tougher nor harder to
    corner 'n kill.
    

    
    	Dr. Dan -
    
    	Granted. But they's the tastiest critters properly skinned, gutted,
    skewered, and barbequed in front of the whole tummy-thumping crowd. And
    I know good sauce makes 'em great to 'et.
    
    	I keep looking for loose ones...
    
    
    		the Greyhawk

    The point is, Tex, we *aren't* hunting 'em down -- 
    they're the ones in control.

    Well, as the one that added a query about new format business cards
    (Internet addresses in particular) to the "Ask Bob" DVN topic, I have a
    spot of news:
    
    Yesterday I saw my first "new style" business card (not mine, a
    colleagues). This is the one where things have been rearranged, fonts
    changed, and (most irritatingly) lines of info cut to a maximum of 7.
    
    My conclusions:
    
    The new one is slightly prettier to look at. The old one is much better
    at doing its job (telling folks how to contact me at Digital).
    
    I'm just grateful I've got a reasonable supply of the old ones.
    
    regards
    john

>    The point is, Tex, we *aren't* hunting 'em down -- 
>    they're the ones in control.
    
    For now, Weedhopper, for now... :^]  As of last week I am on a personal
    campaign.  Here's the thrust...
    
    1 - Make Digital money in spite of Digital, using whatever workarounds
        I have to.  These will be transmitted in this notesfile under
        "Saving Digital Money".
    
    2 - Making sure those in control get tons of e-mail on their idiocy.
    	Requests for information, complaints, more.  I want to ensure that
    	their cost centers become unprofitable in as little period of time
        as is humanly possible.  If they're non-revenue centers, Corson
        will have butter and barbecue warm and waiting.
    
    I hit my limit last week, but I'm not taking this laying down, folks,
    and neither should y'all.  We all b*tch about stupid glossy brochures
    on how to answer your telephone, but do we actually hunt the
    individuals responsible down, nail their e-mail address and identity to
    the Digital notes conference, and spear them with pointed memos?
    
    Methinks it's time we did.  Palmer wants this company profitable and
    the majority of the rest of us do, too.  It's time to fry those who
    don't and I've bought a lot of skewers...  Rare, medium-rare, medium,
    or well-done, folks?  I need more cooks!
    
    								Tex

    
    	Tex, my boy.
    
    	You have been on a tear lately. Way to go. ID them all you want.
    I'll join the party. Heard a terrible story today out of the Southeast
    District about Digital losing three outstanding SI types who would have
    stayed for peanuts. When they confronted their manager about refusing
    the offers if Digital would just show a little consideration, their
    manager asked for their laptops back...
    
    	I personally thought the response to be very creative, and
    extraordinarily dumb...
    
    	But then I could be wrong...
    
    
    		the Greyhawk

Or at least someone like that.

John I

I believe somebody here noted that e-mail and usenet posts show the nodename.
Here is someone seeking out and selling that data (although not specifically
just nodenames). 

From RISKS DIGEST 17.39 (comp.risks):

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 18:44:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email protected] (Marc Rotenberg)
Subject: Risk of visiting wrong place on the Web

The Marketry company of Bellevue, Washington is now selling E-mail addresses
of Internet users obtained from Newsgroup postings. From the company's press
release:

   "These are E-mail address of individuals who are actively using
   the Internet to obtain and transfer information.  They have
   demonstrated a substantial interest in specific area of information
   on the Internet.  They are regularly accessing information in their
   interest areas from newsgroups, Internet chats and websites. . . .
   The file is anticipated to grow at the rate of 250,000 E-Mail 
   addresses per month, all with Interest selections."


What are the interest areas currently available?  "Adult, Computer, 
Sports, Science, Education, News, Investor, Games, Entertainment 
Religion, Pets."  The release notes that "additional interests areas 
will be added, please inquire." Activities of US and non-US Net users 
will be included in the Marketry product.

*The Washington Post* reported that the president of Marketry, Norm Swent,
would not disclose who the actual owner of the list is. "That really is
confidential information," Swent said, "and we are obviously bound by
confidentiality agreements with the list owner."

WHAT YOU CAN DO:

   (a) Sit back, let your newsgroup postings get swept up by the data 
   scavengers and watch the junk E-mail pile high on your system, or

   (b) Send E-mail to Marketry and tell them to STOP SELLING PERSONAL
   DATA GATHERED FROM THE NET.  Send E-mail to: [email protected]
   and tell your friends to send E-mail.  And tell your friends' friends.

It's your name.  It's your mailbox. Think about it.

------------------------------

'Nodenames' seem to be beside the point.  Even if 
postings/mail messages didn't contain nodenames, the 
jerk in question would still be selling the information.
Only anonymous postings can be free of the potential
for this misuse.

[I've sent a mail message to the company saying that
 I expressly wish for my name/address to be excluded
 from anything he sells.  I'd encourage anyone
 else who hates junk mail to do likewise].

i can see it now:

for sale, internet addresses of 300,000 people concerned about privacy.

  Actually, the selling of your names/nodes has already been done.

  "The Internet White Pages" is a volume you've been able to buy
  for several years now, at your friendly neighborhood Barnes &
  Noble, Borders, etc. that lists thousands of names and Internet
  mailboxes, all obtained from reading the newsgroups.

  This new effort just sounds like someone trying to extract more
  money from that same work.

                                   Atlant

I just received the latest issue of "Online", a newsletter from the Storage
group and sent out to customers.  A "[email protected]" address is
mentioned frequently.

But we still have this rule in place about business cards (often observed in
the breach, as it is on my own cards)?

					Steve

    tbg@seetra would be a client using the SEETRA server, I'd think.

When making Internet WWW requests from inside Digital to outside, I
believe the outside Web server only sees the requestor as the firewall
machine, the internal node information is not visible.

Ram

Ram:

  This is definitely true at the "TCP/IP level". I've visited
  sites that keep track of who has accessed them and make this
  information available to all, and the .dec.com proxy servers
  have usually been well represented.

  At the browser level, though, it may not be true. Browsers
  are willing to share information with the http server, and
  this information could very well include the actual network
  address of the host housing the browser as well as the user's
  logon-name, if any exists.

                                   Atlant

>group and sent out to customers.  A "[email protected]" address is
>mentioned frequently.

  Seetra is the node we use for electronic data interchange (EDI) with 
suppliers, customers, etc., so can't be kept "secret" like we are trying to
keep "regular" node names.

    The policy is very clear - no node names.  Of course, I think the
    policy is ridiculous.
    
    					Steve

    On the other hand, it's almost worth the hassle to *have* a clear
    policy.  We had a clear policy come through our department Spring of
    '92.  Unfortunately, an overzealous co-worker shot it and had it
    mounted, so it's effectivity has been drastically reduced.
    
    Anyone wishing postcards picturing our mounted clear policy can request
    them directly from our administrator at a nominal fee.  Proceeds will
    go towards captive management breeding programs, intended to throw a
    little chlorine in the managerial gene pool.
    
    								Tex