Conference 7.286::digital

My thoughts are that games are definitely unacceptable.  I can't think
of any possible justification.

Employee interest notes conferences aren't quite as cut and dry, though.
Take away the `chat' conferences (which I suspect that many only use
while they're waiting for a compilation to finish, on hold on the 'phone,
or whatever, anyway) and the chat will merely migrate to the technical
discussion forums.  Also, if the employer starts to get too inflexible,
the same attitude will spread to the employees; it won't help the company
if it gets the backs of its staff up, many people contribute to this
company out of their own time, such as travelling to a customer site,
doing odd bits of work out of hours, having a good idea at some bizarre
time that they want to check out as soon as possible.  I think that the
value of this sort of effectively voluntary work, although difficult
to put a price on, is very beneficial to the company.  If a `slave-driver'
attitude is imposed on employees, this will all go down the pan, and that
would be a great shame and a great loss.

Just MHO.

Chris.

    Yep - I'm with Chris on this one. Personally, I don't play computer
    games - I'd much rather write some code (but then, I was always a bit
    weird).
    
    But I could not do without notes. Its my link to INFORMATION. I need it
    for customers - I use it to pass on info - I use it to ineract with
    other DECcies.
    
    I work from home so noting happens whenever I happen to be here. It may
    be (as now) around 9:40pm - it may be that I'm working on a project
    from home and access Notes when I get bored writing up the
    documentation for my latest whiz-bang googlesplat. So, you can't go on
    the time of day for anything [incedently, what time is it over there ?]
    
    Now, you may say 'get rid of the non-work-related notes'. No way, I
    reply. No-one can work all day every day without a little light reading
    - for me, this is it !
    
    Big Brother can watch me all he likes - while I pull my weight in DEC,
    he'd better leave me alone !
    
    Alan
    

    I don't think what Saxena's advocating is a "slave-driver" attitude in
    any way shape or form.  In fact, I think he's right on about pretty
    much everything.
    
    It's one thing, as he pointed out, to "gather 'round the watercooler",
    but quite another to take up disk space, bandwidth, CPU time, and
    employee time with SOAPBOX or MODEL_TRAINS.  If Digital feels like
    donating the resources for these conferences, that's cool.  I doubt if
    that's the intent, since we aren't donating much of anything to anyone
    anymore.
    
    If it's employees announcing in EASYNET_CONFERENCES a "new conference
    on ant farming", no management approval, and corporate resources are
    being used by employees during their regular hours, that's another,
    IMHO.  There's no way to shut off access to conferences during the
    normal working day for an employee (due to time zones and shift
    differences) that I know of.  I'm with Saxena.  Shut 'em down.  Hell,
    I'll miss the few I got, but if shutting all personal conferences down
    means a few Digits staying employed...I'll make the "sacrifice".  Hell,
    I'm as guilty as the next person on misusing these at times, so it's
    not a holier-than-thou attitude.
    
    On PC games:  This is the *only* place I've ever worked that allowed
    'em.  I walk around some floors in this place and *every single
    monitor* has Solitaire, Crossword, Jeopardy, or Wheel of Fortune up and
    running.  Delete 'em all.  Someone wants to play Solitaire, let 'em
    bring in a deck and see how *that* goes over during normal business
    hours!
    
    Saxena, let's see what happens here, but I put your suggestion in the
    "Great Ways to Save Digital Money" category and, as such, it should be
    shot right up the ladder to the Suited One, as well as a copy placed in
    "My Quarterly DVN".  If no one can convince me otherwise, I'll be glad
    to do both.
    
    								Tex
    

I think that the working from home angle is something I missed in my
original response (thanks for reminding me, Alan! :)  Since Digital
seems to be headed this way for many of its employees, I think that
non-work related conferences are almost essential to keep up the moral
of employees who don't otherwise have much opportunity to interact
with other people during the `working day' (whatever that is).  And,
yes, I'm still at it, and it's now 10pm local time (sad, eh?)

Chris.

    
    	Completely with -2.
    
    	For field types who travel extensively, life without notes is no
    life at all. Not only tech info, but I couldn't imagine anywhere else
    I would get pointers to obscure files scattered around 80,000+ nodes
    that makes the difference between winning and losing.
    
    	How many hundreds of times have we seen someone ask a question in
    this file, and have it answered promptly, accurately, honestly, and
    completely?
    
    	This *IS* the workplace.
    
    		the Greyhawk

I like to pop in occasionally while waiting for something to finish or to clear
my head. If I didn't do it in NOTES, I would do it somewhere else. I don't
happen to find the water cooler very stimulating.

Restrict one avenue and you will just shift the load somewhere else. Like usenet
news; if you think non-work NOTES conferences are a black hole, just check into
you favorite newsreader: there are THOUSANDS of newsgroups. Many of them are (or
can be) work-related. Many of them are not. There are just too many information
sources. Now that we have easy Internet access, the floodgates are really open.

I think the real trick is to inculcate a strong work ethic, and also keep a
realistic perspective. People don't always work at maximum efficiency, and never
will. But they do frequently operate in bursts of high efficiency. I doubt that
trying to average that out to a consistent level would be effective in the long
run.

>Restrict one avenue and you will just shift the load somewhere else. Like usenet
>news; if you think non-work NOTES conferences are a black hole, just check into
>you favorite newsreader: there are THOUSANDS of newsgroups. Many of them are (or
>can be) work-related. Many of them are not. There are just too many information
>sources. Now that we have easy Internet access, the floodgates are really open.

I was thinking the same thing myself.  Get rid of the employee interest
notes conferences, and you can expect a mass migration to the usenet.  I
run a news server (which I arranged in my spare time (mostly) before anybody
comments, and also built the system from scratch using redundant hardware;
all the company pays for is electricity and network bandwidth!), and I can
vouch for the fact that they are virtually impossible to police.  I do what
I can to keep the thing running, and that takes up as much spare time as
I'm prepared to spend.  If someone suggested that I moderate the 13000?
newsgroups, I'd, uh, be rather rude to them.  Of course, I could always
just shut the entire system down, which would be very popular with the
people who've come to rely on it for patches and technical assistance.

Chris.

    I wish we had a water cooler, they took ours away about 4 years ago in
    a effort to reduce expenses.
    
         David
    

    welp, i don't note here often, but since you asked for opinions...
    
    
    i can't support this notion at all...  deleting solitaire from my pc is
    going to make it a more efficient tool??  or it's going to make me more
    efficient at my job???  i don't think so...  sure it will free up a
    minute amount of space on my hard disk but it's not like people are
    clamoring to fill up that apparently incredibly valuable few bits
    to make us so profitable that jobs can be saved... and if i feel the 
    need to play a game of solitaire while i stop for a cup of coffee
    or while i have lunch, how is that negatively impacting the bottom
    line?   if you're going to take all the games off all the pc's (what
    seems to me to be a rather unattainable goal unless you plan on having 
    pc police to check everyones drive periodically) you might as well 
    erase the "p" from the DECpc name plate while you're at it...  thre
    must be a way to turn that bit of space into a revenue generator as
    well... 
    
    if an employee is not performing because they're wasting time playing
    games, then deal with them and thier performance issues...  whether or
    not they have games on thier pc means nothing...  performance is
    the issue here...  an edict banning games will serve no purpose other
    than to irritate a work force that doesn't need any more sources of
    irritation...
    
    same goes for employee-interest notes files...  if i had $5 for every
    time i've gotten work-related assistance in an "employee interest"
    notesfile i could probably give that back to the company and save
    someones job!   ever hear of networking?  
    
    again, what we're really talking about here is managing employees
    performance...  a managerial responsibility...  if someone's not doing
    the job, let them go...  if they ae doing the job, leave them alone
    and encourage them...
    
    otherwise, why stop there?  i mean, let's cut off people's access
    to the web and internet too...  god knows there's plenty of non-work 
    related stuff out there...  worse still, there are companies out there
    with job postings!  hey there's a way to keep employees!!!!  if they
    can't see beyond thier cubes, then this logic dictates that they must
    be filling up all those "wasted" hours with meaningful and productive
    work!  and they won't be able to look elsewhere for alternative
    positions!!   probably save us a fortune...     not....
    
    						da ve
    
                 

    What the base note seems to imply is that the managers of these
    folks are incapable of either assigning them tasks that pay back
    what Digital is willing to invest for salary and benefits, and/or
    then monitoring and measuring their performance against these
    tasks.

    If that's the case, then I'd say its time to eliminate the manager
    and perhaps the employee, rather than the conferences/games.  I
    get measured objectively (billable hours, completed programs,
    etc.); I would expect that everyone else gets some form of
    objective measurement as well, whether its widgets produced or
    hours packing boxes or what have you - if the employee
    continuously delivers less than par due to indulgence in
    games/non-work conferences then the employee bears the consequence
    and if his/her direct manager/supervisor remains unaware of it
    then he/she is also a failure.


    jmo,
	Mike

    
    This ground has been covered before. I don't see any new and
    interesting arguments.
    
    I work on a product that's supported on and across 13 -- no, 14 ---
    no, 15 (right now) platforms. We're currently supporting three streams of
    development and maintenance. With debug, production and private builds,
    not to mention rought 14� test combinations, we consume *many* gigs of
    disk space, and we regularly saturate the local network. I'd be
    willing to bet significant cash money that all the non-work-related
    noting compares to that like fly spit to the Pacific Ocean.
    
    I'd also be willing to bet that roughly the same ratio could be had by
    comparing the waste of non-work activities of any kind to the waste
    created by antiquated, inefficient, unconnected and stove-piped
    business systems that have been complained about for years.
    
    And what makes milling around the coffee mess or the water cooler
    acceptable, and noting or games not? Be careful -- when they shut down
    *my* favorite sanity-saving activity, they might come after *yours*.
    
    I take to heart, and strongly resent, the implication that an avid noter
    in both business and non-business fora is a net drain on this company,
    and I'm willing to supply my history of reviews, raises, bonuses and
    letters of commendation as evidence to the contrary.
    
    Shutting down non-work-related notes, purging computer games, or
    checking briefcases for newspapers, novels and playing cards will *not*
    cause slackards to suddenly start doing an honest day's work. Reviews
    worthy of the term, and true pay for performance, *will*.
    

    Re: last few

    If DEC was making 5 million dollars a day, I would say go for it too.
    Lets have all the notes conferences from A to Z. I would vote for
    computer games too.

    Unfortunately, just over a year back DEC was on the brink of
    bankruptcy. If it had, guess where all the notes conferences would have
    ended up. If DEC goes on another down slide and starts weilding the axe
    again,  (or have it's own **** chopped off) guess what will happen
    then. More layoffs ?? 

    Are you comparing other work places and pointing out the internet
    misuse there?? Well may be those companies manage to keep their heads
    above water. 

    I mean, does any one know why when the entire computer industry is
    booming, DEC was/is just managing to keep it's head above water (HP &
    DEC were at par in 91. Now HP's revenues are double). What reason?? Bad
    products?? Lack of talent?? When it boils down to it is just plain
    mismanagemnt. And one of the mismangement is bad man management.
    Layoffs are the easy solution to reduce payroll. The more difficult
    thing is for the managers to ananyze where what is being wasted and for
    employees to have that extra discipline.

    Someone suggested that this reeks of a  slave-driver attitude. Is it??
    If in difficult times, DEC deos not pay the bill for employees to slack
    off on company's time do you consider that it is a slave-driver
    relationship?? By no stretch of imagination can that be true. Where are
    the whips and chains here?? In fact because it is suggested that this
    is a slave-driver thing, prooves that slacking off on companies time is
    now being considered a right. 

May I humbly suggest that if a programme of increased productivity were
to be undertaken, then expending effort on locating non-work related
notes conferences, games, novels, playing cards, etc is attacking the
symptom and not the cause.  If Digital wants to get more out of its
(already hard pressed) employees it could do worse than to stop pissing
them about, for which it has a fine record of achievement.

It's now 11:10pm, and I'm going to bed.

Chris.

    CPU: Most workstations, where the notes get read, and games get played 
         just spin when at the water cooler, no $ wasted in gaming/noting.
    
    DISK: Its minimal.  Appropriate management of individual notes
          conferences should (and does) minimize disk use.  If we delete
          the games or the notes conferences, do we save any $?  No!
    
    NETWORK: Noting is a very low bandwith activity.  If the bandwidth is
             unused, do we save any money?  No.
    
    EMPLOYEE TIME USAGE: A management, and self management issue.  We
                         should all make sure we all do our jobs.  A little
                         amusement interspersed is healthy.  If employees
                         note or play games all day, and their manager doesnt
                         notice, we have a much bigger problem!
    
    If we want to start saving money, lets talk about how we spend it, and
    start a change/saving forum.  Lets worry about how we dont make money
    because of supply, mfg, or competitive problems.  Lets worry about how we
    do/dont get contracts.  Lets worry about customer satisfaction.  And a small
    modicum of employee satisfaction.  More screws to the employees will
    not produce a more $ucce$$ful corporation!!
    
    Sorry, but the base noter is off base!!
    
    - Jim

    I used games to practice drag and click when I first got my PC, but
    haven't played them since.  I don't like the ones we have on our
    machines here.  However, what's wrong with playing games on
    ones own time?  I read this notes file too and occasionally note. Why is
    it assumed this is on Digital's time?  When does a noter take lunch or
    quit for the day etc...?  Let's be careful not to assume everybody who
    enjoys something or interacts in notes is being unfair to Digital. 
    Lets get the facts before accusing.  Broad generalizations are usually
    wrong.
    Sue
    

    Don't get me started...  Imho it was bad enough when it was "rumored"
    that EINF's were going to be axed about 2 years back.  I was in the
    vanguard of those who took the issue to HR and convinced them, even
    then in the depths of our slump, that to kill EINFs would be folly.
    
    Imho again, I find it almost as depressing that someone NOT in
    management, who has been a participant in this very valuable forum,
    could get it in his head that EINFs are a Bad Thing.  Au contraire!
    
    Your mileage obviously varies... but don't go messing with the Notes
    culture... it's part of the fiber & sinew that has made DIGITAL what we
    are.  Yah, I know what you're thinking about THAT... :-)
    
    But as they say, "watch this space" for a clear descendant of DECnotes,
    on the Web.  It's happening, and it will ultimately replace DECnotes. 
    You can't keep a good collaboration environment down.  Homo Sapiens is
    a communicating, community, collaborating species.              Cheers, Dan

To me the bottom line is that having a person do things like Solitaire or 
non-work related noting on Digital's time is the same as if that person
were hanging around in the hallway talking to other employees about baseball
or taking an extra half-hour for lunch.  It is either a needed break for
that person to get their head together in order to be *more* productive
when they get back to work (which is a positive sign that the person is 
correctly managing their time in order to be most productive), or it is 
goofing off (which is a negative sign that the person is not doing the job
that they are being paid for).

I have done both of those things in my working life, as I expect we all have.
I like to believe (and having just had a review, I am happy to report that
my boss agrees) that I do more of the former than the latter.  But in either
case it is something strictly between that person and their boss, and is
properly handled during things like performance reviews.

I am always amazed at people who wish to solve the private and infrequent
activities of a few people by draconian measures which hurt everyone.  I
don't think it works any better here than it does anywhere else.  If you
truly believe that some employees are not doing their job, deal with it 
on that level: talk to them, talk to their boss, whatever.  But don't go
out of your way to take away a benefit that most people use responsibly,
and which gives many of us information/enjoyment/etc, and which is one of
the things that makes Digital special for me and others.

Sure I write in notes files, both work related and EINFs.  Most of the times
I write I do it after hours, and the times I do it during the official work
day it is usually because I am waiting for something else to finish or 
because my brain is totally fried and I need a break.  Ok, sometimes I am
goofing off.   But I try to be responsible to Digital, and deliver value for 
value received.  I believe this is true for the vast majority of employees,
and I don't believe that penalizing them for the actions of a few is valid.

In the book "Chuck Amuck" by Chuck Jones (one of the cartoon directors at
Warner Brothers, who is responsible for some of the greatest cartoons ever
made IMHO), he describes the management of the cartoon division at WB.  To
be very polite, he is not complimentary.  He states that they were all
short-sighted fools who, through either ignorance or malice, did everything
they could to de-motivate and repress the creative staff.  At one point he
describes how the staff would wander in between 8:00 and 9:00 AM, and be 
busily working at those hours.  Then management decided to put in a timeclock,
and force everyone to punch it at 9:00 AM.  Guess what?  Everybody punched in
at 9:00 AM all right, and they punched out just as dutifully at 5:00 PM.  All
the work which used to get done before 9:00 was no longer done, and all of
the people who used to stay late no longer did so.  Production plummeted, and
deadlines were missed.  It was estimated that over 100 man-hours/day were
lost because of this gadget.

Don't you see that your idea to ban some of the "un-productive" activities
at work is the same as the installation of that timeclock?  In both cases
you are saying that employees are not interested in doing their work, that
they will only be productive if you *prevent* them from doing anything other
than what you decided they should be doing, and that in fact the employer
should treat the employees like naughty children who cannot be trusted.  I
think this is insulting and uncalled for.

One more thing. I have 2 games on my notebook PC: FreeCell and Descent.  I
paid for both of them with my own money, and they will be the first things
to go if I run out of disk space.  This notebook goes *EVERYWHERE* with me,
and I am much more productive with it than without it (just ask the Sales Rep
who got his quote at 7:30 AM this morning while we were both in a hotel in
Atlanta).  But after I finished reading all of my mail messages and writing
the responses to those mail messages on the plane back home today, I played
8 games of FreeCell (and lost 3 of them, darn it).  This happened during work
times (since my plane left at 4:30 PM).  

Was I goofing off?  I don't think so.

-- Ken Moreau

    .17
    
    Agreed.  Although I have not a single game aboard my machine.
    
    I'd put it to you out there further...some people have a need to
    VENT.  The basenoter, Tex, Greyhawk...stay on base here.  Without a
    doubt, SOAPBOX and the like have their share of WAY-overboard noters.
    However, the majority of us aren't sitting at our desks TTLT, TTHT,
    etc...or carrying on about the Civil War...
    
    If it's gonna get down to slaying all the fumble-fingered typists
    around here, let's go ahead and time bathroom visits, and make
    VERY sure they don't carry a section of the newspaper in there
    with 'em....better measure their "square" usage and threaten them
    with semi-autos if they don't wipe right.  Oh, and don't even THINK
    about smoking another cigarette, you time-wasting, temple-despising
    morons.
    
    Oh, yeah, if the time on your message reads roughly between 8-5
    in the U.S., we should dock your pay if the message police don't
    deem your message essential to company business.
    
    >:^PPPPPPPPP'
                 '
    		  '
    		   '
    		    '
                     '
    		      '	(oops, sorry. the wind caught it.)

    
    FWIW,


    MUD ( Multi User Dungeon ) is classed as a game ....

    It is now used in the UK CSC as a method of communication between
    groups, it now has the active support of the managers here and makes my
    job a lot easier.  Have you ever tried to get through to a support
    engineer who is on a phone?

    I regularly use world mud's to get assistance for work issues, phone
    numbers etc.

    I use EINC to save money, ask advice on products, as well as
    informational purposes.

    Getting rid of these would just irritate an already disgruntled work
    force...

    \_spike_/

    
    
    	Talk about a time waste, that doggone internet is the real devil
    here.  Amazing that work and play can be just one click away from each
    other.  
    	Again it should be a management problem that we have to consider
    spraying everyone for the abuses of a few.
    	If we want to improve productivity get out the pencil and plan us a
    modern corporate mail network.  Get out the checkbook and invest in
    some tools for remote workers (modern laptops).  Stop everyone heading
    in on Monday morning and ask them do they have plans for the day or are
    they just there.  See if someone is missed while on vacation.  ;-)
    
    	No doubt our productivity could be improved and needs to be but
    zeesh..  
    
    	There is NO place for hobbies at work and no place for work at
    home.  Fare is fare.  But due to the idle hands I may have to resort to
    throwing tomatoes at cars during the evening, again.... 
    
    Mark

    1. Count the raindrops on the window (when it rains).
    2. Count the smudges on the window (when its dry).
    3. Think up a better name for the colour of your monitor than "beige".
    4. Count the fingerprints on your monitor (when it rains).
    5. Press nose against monitor and measure size of nose print.
    6. Calculate the thickness of the dirt layer on your keyboard.
    7. Calculate your projected bonus for this year.
    8. Calculate Bob's projected bonus for this year.
    9. Write a 10 page essay on why we should be called DEC or Digital.
    10. Think up another 10 things to do. 

   The resentment and anger generated by banning employee interest notes
   files and games would quickly negate the "benefit" that was supposed
   to be gained by such action.

   But more importantly, even EINF and games can produce a benefit to
   Digital.  A few years ago, I was working on a product called
   "Concurrent View and Edit".  My manager had come to me and said it
   would be nice if multiple users could share a DECview3D (CAD viewer)
   session over the net, and left it to me to figure out how to do it. 
   One of the main goals was to make it fast enough for users to use
   while talking to one another on the phone.  While it wasn't strictly
   "real-time" in the technical sense of the term, it was "real-time"
   from the user's point of view.

   In any case, I had been playing John Buehler's FLIGHT (networked
   flight simulator on VMS) now and then at lunch and after hours, and
   realized that this simulator (John hated having it called a game) had
   very similar user-response and network requirements as my project.  I
   asked him how he had written FLIGHT and he gave me a few good
   pointers.  FLIGHT also had a diagnostic mode which I used to measure
   some network performance parameters in preparation for my work.

   Now, I'm sure I could have figured out how to write CVE by staring at
   the VMS networking manuals long enough, or asking in a work-related
   notes conference.  But having seen FLIGHT gave me an indication of
   what the network *could* do and gave me confidence in the viability
   of the mechanism used.  CVE turned out to work wonderfully and had
   two versions (VMS and ULTRIX) less than a year after the original
   "Wouldn't it be nice..." statement.

    Back in the early seventies IBM did a major study of factors affecting
    progrmmer productivity. Among other things, they found that their most
    productive programmers spent a significant amount of time looking ou
    the window.
    IBM concluded that having a window to look out of (to rest the mind, or
    whatever) was important. The base noter would've bricked up the
    windows.
    
    \dave

    Disagree with .0.   Notes conferences bring Digits with similar hobbies
    /likes together for the benefit of employee and Digital.  If you really
    want to enhance productivity, I suggest that Digital invest in its internal 
    information systems.    
    
    Here we are a computer company with all this powerful hardware/software
    and we still have akward paper systems, human processes which fail to
    meet design objectives, VTX infobases which are so user-unfriendly its 
    pittyful/useless, information systems which limit our ability to service 
    customers effectively and on and on... 
	
    If you want to talk about time wasted address these areas.  I believe 
    Digital could increase employee productivity, customer satisfaction and 
    company profitability by addressing some of the areas listed above.  
    Use of work and non-work related notes conferences benefit the employee
    and Digital.  .0 if you really want to impact employee productivity,
    then get off your bandwagon and start addressing internal processes and
    information systems related issues to enable a more productive
    employee.  

	What are you people complaining about? Everyone knows .0 is right.
	What better example is this note, itself? Why, right now we
	could be designing products, making them, writing documentation,
	marketing and selling them etc etc.

	The problem is that we are not thinking big enough. Sure, notes files
	use valuable Digital time and resources, but it is just a symptom
	of a larger problem:

    
	There are people in Digital who waste work time by thinking their
	own thoughts and tend to personal matters on Digital time.

    
    
	Digital Workers can be so much more productive than they are now.
	It would only require some small sacrifices on our part to make big
	gains for Digital. 

        First off, although it is tempting to get rid of all those "Employee
        Interest" notesfiles, when you examine the true costs you will realize
        they are more valuable right where they are. As other noters have
        observed, the cost of disk space and CPU are plummeting; the return on
        investment can be enormous if we use these resources effectively: as a
        Digital Tool to monitor the Digital Workers. 

        A quick tour through the notesfiles will turn up thousands of people
        who need to be sent to  Digital Time Management Training. Those
        employees who use the term "DEC" instead of "Digital" will obviously
        need to be sent to Digital Branding Training. There are probably some
        who use the Digital Notesfile that could be become the Instructors for
        these classes. The rest will need Digital Correctness Training, along
        with all Soapboxers. Digital Workers probably should pay our-of-pocket
        for the Training since it is for their own good. The possibilities are
        seemingly endless; we just need to take that first step to begin our
        Digital March.

        On the topic of water coolers (or water bubblers since the coolers are
        distant memories), clearly we can't be paying people to hang around
        them. Digital should eliminate salaries and pay people by the minute.
        Everyone will be assigned Digital Watches with Digital Timers that are
        used to track Digital Time versus "personal time". Digital Workers will
        be on the honor system to click on or off their timer as appropriate
        as the day progresses. Nobody will be allowed to leave until they have
        logged the  Digital Department approved amount of time. Of course they
        will need to go to Digital Watch Training first. There will be Digital
        Hall Monitors that wander around checking the status of the Digital
        Timers to ensure time privileges are not being abused. Trust But Verify.

        More Digital Monitors will be needed to read each bit of Email to
        ensure the "DEC" name is not used and that all mail messages are 
        strictly Digital Business oriented. 
	
        Wait, this is too cumbersome. Much easier would be to eliminate those
        spacious cubicles that some Digital Workers still enjoy. Imagine this
        beautiful Digital Picture: Rows and rows of tables stretching off into
        the murky distance, glowing CRT tubes back to back, each one with a 
        Digital Worker attached. As long as your Digital Timer is plugged in 
        you will be paid. Every word you speak or type will be Trusted And
        Verified. You will be paid by the minute and docked for each minute
        not typing/on the phone with a customer.

        Swells my chest with Digital Pride... 

        md

        P.S. Of course I will have to stay late tonight to make up for the
             typing time.

        P.P.S. Lest I be sent to Digital Correctness training, the persons
               and events depicted here are purely fictional, any resemblance
               to actual opinions, places, or people is coincidental etc. etc.

    I'll also disagree with .0.  I would hope that a supervisor would
    already be able to measure his/her people's work and manage problems
    without trying to fix the issue technically by deleting games,
    notes, etc.  This is just as silly as the V-Chip in the US where the
    chip and government turn into babysitters because the parents can't
    supervise their children (oops, sorry, I thought this was SOAPBOX).
    
    Employees need time to stretch their bodies (to prevent carpal tunnel,
    etc.) and to stretch their minds!  When I get stuck on a hard problem,
    I look for a mindless activity to help get past my mental block.
    Game playing (which I don't do) and notes files (which I do) satisfy
    my need for quiet time.  I'm sure we can dig up countless physicologal
    studies which promote the concept of "play time" for very complicated
    mental tasks.
    
    Now, do people go too far and not do enough work?  Sure the do!  If
    you took away the games and notesfiles, they will still figure out how
    to squeeze 20 hours of work into a 40 hour week.  Count on it.  As a
    previous reply said, if we want to get people to work more, you have
    to change their attidute (or chain them to their desks and whip them
    into submission...)
    
    				-John

This thread reminds me of what I read on the Web, it said the internet exploded
on 4/28/95, because every employee's desktop came up with Netscape. It also
mentioned their VP wasn't concerned if all employees spending work time surfing
the cyberspace; he figured, the fever would diminish about 2 weeks...

I admire their VP's belief in the uplifting effect on their employees by 
giving them (everyone) the same revolutionary tool, and their VP's vision of the
benefit to their company beyond the non-work usage of Netscape. And, above all,
I envy their VP has enough trust in their employees to do so. Btw, this company
has surpassed us in revenue few years back.

Regards,
Edwin

    .0 - some questions for you ->    If you feel that non-work related 
    conferences are a waste of time how to you feel about:
    
    1).  Newspaper stands in Digital lobbies?   Doesn't this imply that
         Digital employees purchase newpapers and read them on Digital 
         property?
    
    2).  Bulletin Boards on Digital property that advertise non-work
         related topics?   Time is spent creating, editing and posting to
         these too. 
    
    3).  People who smoke cigrettes on Digital property?   Remember this
         occurs DURING breaktime - the same time every other Digital
         employee legally has a right to take.
    
    4).  People who drink coffee?  This implies that they leave their 
         desks God forbid and are non-productive during this time.  
    
    5).  People who use Digital phones for personal calls.
    
    etc...
    
    .0 get real - Why did you stop at just suggesting that non-work related 
    conferences be discontinued?  Do you really want to work for a company 
    that micro-manages its employees to this extent?   
    

    .0 is right on target. The goal is to get Digital back to prosperity,
    be profitable, and keep Digital people employed [at Digital].  Why
    waste time with small potato problems like PC games or Notefiles?
    Fiddling with these little things won't have any measureable long term
    impact.
    
    I propose everyone (except upper management of course!) take an
    immediate 15% cut in pay and benefits. Each employee can also make a
    direct ten dollar (or your particular country's monetary equivalent)
    contribution to Digital from each weekly paycheck. These steps _WILL_
    effect the bottom line in a very noticeable way _RIGHT NOW_!
    
    Afterall, Digital is much more important in the long term than any of us
    as individuals. Right comrade?
    
    DaveW. (Sheesh, I remember playing "Lunar Lander" on a GT40!??!, Any
            other old-timers remember those day?)

.29>    DaveW. (Sheesh, I remember playing "Lunar Lander" on a GT40!??!, Any
.29>            other old-timers remember those day?)
    
    Did you ever get close enough to the McDonald's?
    

    IMO the real issue is not and has never been Notes conferences, games,
    coffee breaks, etc.  Rather, it is this sense of entitlement that some
    individuals seem to have.  If you 'lurk' through SOAPBOX, peruse
    NEW_Hampshire, Colorado (as examples), you see the *same*  individuals
    writing hundreds of inches of opinions -- just ask them and boy can
    they justify the *hours* they spend in Notes.

    When I hear this issue being debated I'm reminded of an individual who
    use to come to work at 10:00 a.m. and leave by 2:30 p.m.  They
    justified these hours by saying who cares as long as they got their
    work done.  The reality is that if that person could work these hours
    they didn't have enough to do.  If we didn't have these excesses and
    abuses -- would anyone care?

    Me?  I adore COOKS.  When my daughter was getting married I read
    WEDDING everyday.  I feel connected to my fellow digits sharing these
    things (besides, I bored all my live friends to death with the wedding
    and needed a sympathetic ear).  Abusive?  I don't think so.
    
    Carel
    
    

    hmmmm. So, 1/30 notes support the crusade for all round work efficiency.
    
    Why, I just love DEC, the BIG EZ!
    
    :)

    
    C'mon, Vik! Not one reply in this note said, "We're not interested in
    making DEC more efficient." The majority just disagree with your
    approach.
    

    But your crusade isn't to support "all round work efficiency", your
    proposal is to eliminate certain outlets* for employees who
    compulsively avoid work.
    
    Do you understand that you are proposing treating a symptom?
    
    ---
    * Outlets which can be demonstrated to not significantly impact
      corporate costs, but which I don't think is your primary issue.

Let's face it, if I wanted to waste time I would just wander downstairs
and watch the telly all day, or do the gardening or something.  Notes
participation isn't much of a time waster, except for any individuals
who may be addicted, in which case they should see a psychiatrist!

Chris.

    
    
    We should also have to bring in our own toilet paper, because some of
    us use more than others, and have a set time limit that we can be in 
    the bathroom, because some of us spend more time in the bathroom
    than others, and waste more water too.  
    
    I think it's real funny that .0 is upset about the use of resources.
    
    I know of a big hardware organization that has millions in hardware, but
    no formal equipment manager, no clue as to what assets they have, who 
    has them or what they are doing with them, and because that is already
    spent monies, no incentive to find out what they really have.  
    
    The only time most groups/managers worry about money is when they 
    have to use Capital money, if is under 1K or an asset transfer, it's
    no problem.  If equipment gets broken, we'll just write it off the
    books, that's the ticket, just send it to Contookit (sp), and let them
    disassemble and scrap it.  Write it off the books, doesn't make a lot
    of sense to me.  I've seen several financial analysts are guilty of
    this, we have this equipment, but we don't really need it and we are 
    paying depreciation on it, so let's just scrap it, and write it off the
    books.  But if I ask them, "Is your car paid for?", and they answer
    "Yes", so I say, well then give it to me, it's expensed, they say, 
    "No, it still has value, It's mine",  but if it's DECs money, somehow
    it's a different story.  Scrap it, write it off, don't try to sell it,
    use it, or repair it.   
    
    Kinda like playing peek a boo, when my hands are over my eyes, 
    you can't see me, can you??
    
    
    
    This topic has been hung out many times, employees that don't want to 
    work, simply won't work, it ultimately is the "manager's"
    responsibility to know what his/her people are doing, if he/she doesn't
    know, or let's the employees "take advantage", we should get rid of
    both the manager and the employee.  But in the day and age of Sue me,
    Sue me, I don't think you'll ever see a full time employee let go
    for a performance issue, the only was I've seen dead wood get axed
    was under the guise of a layoff.  Even if it was documented that 
    performance was the real issue. 
    
    
    	
    All of my above comments are work related, so I don't feel guilty about
    entering this a 13:40, on DECs time.
    
    But as Sean Penn said to his teacher in Fast times at Ridgemont high, 
    when asked why he was eating a pizza on my time (the teacher's),
    replied, "If you here, and I'm here, doesn't it make it OUR time??"
    
    Tempest Fugent
    
    /art 

    The base noter seems to think that EINFs have no useful purpose in
    the work field.  That view is short-sighted, and just plain stupid.
    
    Noting is about (among other things) networking.  Not the electronic
    kind that makes Notes possible, but the human kind, that allows people
    in many different places, with many different backgrounds, to "meet"
    each other in a forum where they DO have something in common.  
    
    When I first started reading Notes (in 1983), I was new to the company,
    and didn't know much of anything.  Through reading notes, I began to
    "meet" people from scores of other groups; I began to learn what their
    particular field of expertise was, even though that expertise may have
    had no bearing on the subject at hand.  It was like going to a party,
    meeting somone, and finding out that they worked for the same company,
    but in a different group.
    
    As time went on, I began to put that peripheral information to good
    use.  For example, a colleague needed information on the Fortran
    compiler;  I didn't know anything myself, but through my notes
    participation, I knew who to point my colleague towards.  I knew that
    if this person didn't know the answer himself, he'd know the person
    who did.  
    
    This scenario played itself out hundreds of times; it has drastically
    shortned my searches for real, useful information.  Notes conferences
    are often the only glue that hold this corporation together -- they
    form the basis for one of the most effective commincations mediums ever
    created.  To eliminate them under the banner of "efficiency" is (as has
    been mentioned repeatedly) treating the symptom rather than the ill.
                                                        

    Re: .last
    
    AMEN!!!!!!
    
    Brian Pituley
    

    I'm currently noting, as the production system that I'm trying
    desperately to save is having one of its disks analyzed in what's
    probably a vain effort to save a database containing a lot of Digital's
    POs and invoices...as well as our payroll, FWIW.
    
    The system has two non-system disks, no volume shadowing, and the
    system manager is on vacation.  As long as our production systems are
    up, running, and secure, I think having tons of EINFs is fine.  On the
    other hand, it raises a question to me that we've got the time and
    effort to fund and support all these and provide disk space while
    bet-your-business internal systems are dying.
    
    Hell, *I'd* miss the EINFs as much as anyone, minus the complete
    addicts.  But I do think Saxena has a point here.  Methinks some of the
    folks protesting protesteth too loud.

	re: -.1

	please reread the responses in this and all the other EINF yes/no
	threads...analysis has shown that all the disk space/network
	bandwidth/CPU horsepower used by noting of all kinds would
	amount to the proverbial hill-of-beans vs. the mountainous
	amounts that would be necessary to "fix" the corporate
	information infrastructure...so illiminating EINFs will NOT
	supply the magic cure for your (or anyone's) ailing systems...

	_kelley

    
    Re .39:
    
    Let's assign probabilities to the following statements:
    
    o  A bet-your-business production is in trouble because someone 
       said "Shadow sets! We don' need no steenkin' shadow sets!"
    
    o  A bet-your-business production is in trouble because someone
       said "We desperately need more hardware to make this system
       secure, but it's all being eaten up by those dang EINFs."
    

    
    	Or some mid-level bozo decided that his/her measurement numbers
    would look a whole lot better if they didn't spend any money to keep
    the systems close to failsafe and up-to-snuff.
    
    	Seeing how its the coming Labor Day weekend, I'm tending toward my
    more radical "love thy worker" mode....
    
    
    		the Greyhawk

    Tex, 
    
    I don't usually disagree with ya'll, but another point regarding
    EINFs that has been brought up countless times is that the conferences
    are world-wide.  You can't assume by looking at date/time stamps
    that the noter is EINF noting on company time.  I tend to note on
    my lunch hour or from home.  I'm a non-smoker and I don't drink
    coffee, so if I "pop" into a conference from time-to-time as I'm
    doing now, I'll "pop" right back out if that 800# rings :-)
    
    Most of us really have much more to do than waste company resources.
    After all, if it wasn't for this notes conference I wouldn't have
    had a clue as to where to turn with that ATD who needed info on EDI
    (thanks again, for the assist Tex). :-)
    

   re: .43
>    After all, if it wasn't for this notes conference I wouldn't have
>    had a clue as to where to turn with that ATD who needed info on EDI
    
    But this *is* a work related conference. 
    ::DEC, i mean ::DIGITAL is indispensable. Who would consider it non
    work-related??

    To add to what Karen said; Not only are we not all in the same time
    zone, but we are not all 8am to 5pm.  Some of us are even salaried,
    which means a time clock is ALMOST irrelevant.  I for one don't get a
    lunch break, but have to eat at my desk, and if a call comes in, I have
    to drop what I'm doing (eating or noting) and answer the phone.
    
    Jim Morton
    

    
    RE.44
    
>  But this *is* a work related conference.
>  ::DEC, i mean ::DIGITAL is indispensable. Who would consider it non
>  work-related??
    
   How about management? Since the John Sims/Ron Glover mail is posted 
   in note 1.11 I would assume this conference is (correctly in my opinion)
   classifed as an EINF.
    
   /Kjell 

    Corporate Employee Relations considers DIGITAL to be "work-related" -
    I've had managers in that organization tell me so.
    
    				Steve

    
    	Well, Steve, *that* does make it official...
    
    	Now everybody, on to the next string.
    
    
    		the Greyhawk

    RE: .0 (and your others following)
    
    Read .37 again, and if you still don't understand, re-read it until you
    do.
    
    Hth, Laurie.

    Hey, I think .0 doesn't go far enough.  Just last week I passed
    2 people in the hall having a non-work-related CONVERSATION!  Just
    think of all the improved productivity if employees were not allowed
    to waste time shooting the breeze.  It's been my experience that
    people spend a lot more talking about non-work-related issues than
    they do reading non-work-related notes file.
    
    Next step - eliminating non-work-related thoughts.
    
    Vince
    
    P.S.  Seriously - I think the base noter is well intentioned, but naive.

    Workstations in all toilets! Why waste a second?

    
    Toilets in all workstations! Why waste a chance to build a new service
    empire?
    

>>    Toilets in all workstations! Why waste a chance to build a new service
>>    empire?

I thought they were already there!  Isn't that what flush() is for?

    First, as Lionel pointed out, DIGITAL is *not* an EINF.  I also find
    it totally indispensable.
    
    Second, I'm not sure I'm in agreement, but I *do* see everyone's point
    here (the majority in favor of EINFs).  As previous noters have
    mentioned (including me), there's no way to filter based on time due to
    time/shift/vacation/etc. differences.
    
    Apparently, the general feeling is that this is a management issue. 
    I'm somewhat in agreement, as some department managers apparently have
    no problem with a Digit working crosswords, playing Solitaire or Doom,
    etc. for hours on end during the workday.  This bothers me when the
    same employees that do this have the message light lit on their phone
    and they're buying another vowel from Vanna!
    
    On the other hand, no one wants to punish the conscientious (sp?)
    noters who don't abuse the system.  Before this degenerates much
    further, can anyone offer some suggestions besides TWs (Toilet
    Workstations) to address some of the problems?  Here's what I see:
    
    System Resources: Anyone can, I believe, just create a conference and
    post it in EASYNET_CONFERENCES with/without management approval.  In
    our department, given the scarcity of resources, I'd get castrated for
    doing that *before* I was fired!  If I'm right on this, that means we
    have to fill out requisitions for pencils yet we can allocate often
    scarce system resources (CPU, network, disk, backups, etc.) for
    non-revenue activity with no paperwork of any kind. That doesn't make
    sense.
    
    Time Resources: One non-EINF noter has entered 6,900+ notes in SOAPBOX
    over a fairly short period of time.  Many of these are in "chat line"
    format, as Saxena pointed out, and the majority are very lengthy.  Most
    are 8-5.
    
    I doubt we have any info on the cost of EINFs, no reporting on the
    number minus EASYNET_CONFERENCES, and no approval process.  This is
    closely akin to how CIA budgeting is done here in the US. :^] 
    
    No free lunch here, folks.  BP's been concentrating on cost cutting and
    I applaud Saxena for doing same.  IMHO, every time we cut costs, we
    raise profit and save a Digit from extinction.  Now, let's get some
    insight (Lionel, you can help here, I believe) on the processes, what
    is involved in setting up an EINF, true costs, etc.  Let's have a
    rational discussion on same, and look at options (besides TWs :^]).
    
    Anyone?
    
    							Tex

There's no difference from the point of view of disk usage
between me creating a notesfile and a 10-gazillion-byte
text file containing the phrase "Dos off, Tex".  So there's
no need for any new management mechanism -- existing 
contstraints apply (on timesharing systems: disk quotas
or the watchful eye of a system manager; on single-user
systems like mine: when a disk is full it's full).

Disk is cheap anyway: 50 cents a megabyte for SCSI,
although maybe that's not cheap compared to post-its
and paperclips.  I wouldn't even attempt to argue the
pros and cons of the situation based on machine
resource consumption.  The one resource with a significant
cost is people-time, and that's the one that the debate
should focus on.

My position on this?  Oh, I don't really care, since the files
I read can be construed as work-related anyway.  I do think
however that banning EINFs is simply attacking the symptoms
and not the disease -- the question is, are you doing
your job properly?  If you are, then fine.  If you're not,
then the exact manner of your goofing off hardly matters.

dave:

> Disk is cheap anyway: 50 cents a megabyte for SCSI,
> although maybe that's not cheap compared to post-its
> and paperclips.

  Post-Its(R) and paper clips cost *MUCH MORE* per megabyte,
  and with paper clips, the weight is a significant factor.
  Plus, the paper clips are still susceptible to being re-
  arranged by stray magnetic fields with the subsequent loss
  of data.
                                   Atlant

    .3/.54 Thanks for supporting the idea Tex. You admit to liking Noting
    in EINFs (I do too), but you kept your interests aside and were willing
    to support the idea in .0 on its merits alone. I guess that makes you 
    an exceptional person.

    Some people are making light of the idea calling it naive. Now I wonder
    who really is naive. 

    People are comparing the issue with misuse incurred in taking an extra
    hour for lunch or restrooms. I don't think the comparison is very valid
    since such things being more "VISIBLE" happen much less often. How many
    people would you find reading a book vs playing on the computer??

    Again, some people by commenting about datetime stamp on notes are
    twisting .0 by suggesting that it advocates monitoring of noting/gaming
    activities. Give the base note a  break guys. That is not at all what
    is suggested. Far from it, if the management concludes that EINFs/games 
    escalate easing off for the majority, then it should just get rid of
    them. Period. Heave Ho Dump. Get rid of the beast. Clean, quick and
    honest.

    Monitoring who is doing what is counter productive and would actually
    reduce productivity. Moreover trying to judge who is doing what by
    timestamps on notes would be so very stupid since the vast majority are
    read only noters who leave no time stamps. 
    
    I don't think DEC management is so spineless that it wouldn't get rid
    of what it believes is a problem and instead let it continue but engage
    in subversive monitoring and try to gauge from time stamps/ monitor
    connections as to who is doing what. Come on folks. Give a break.
    If the managemnt could let go 10's of 1000's people, it could get rid
    of EINFs (if it wants) before we can bat an eyelid. Any suspicions of
    the Big Brother watching lurk in our own pathetic minds. And nor is
    such monitoring being advocated by someone like me, from the worker bee
    environ. 

    However, I do agree that no one will work efficiently all the time and
    an occasional foray into the play area is a MUST.The intent of my base
    note was to examine if for the vast majority, the 'occasional' foray
    may be turning into a 'norm' and therefore to pause and say hello. It
    was triggered by another note elsewhere which pointed out that someone
    in a trade rag suggested that DEC should get rid of notes since they
    are time wasters. If an outsider makes such comments, isn't it time to
    wonder if perhaps the symptom has turned chronic ??

    Another comment here has been that the real problem lies with the
    manager, who should be aware of how much their subordinates produce.
    Again not a very valid arguement. Most tasks get accomplished within  a
    plus-minus certain %age time frame. You think the manager gets a heart
    attack if a 10 hr schedule stretches into 11 or is thrown in ruptures
    of ecstacy if it gets done in 9?? He wouldn't even notice. However, the
    extra hour this way or that way shows up very clearly in the bottom
    line. And that alone was the final intent of my base note - suggestion
    that wouldn't necessarily cause a wholesale upheavel in revenues, but
    could simply cause the bottom line to firm up.

    /vj

Okay, let me address the point of how much Digital pays for in terms
of electricity, CPU time, disc space etc.  Now let me also address the
point of how much I spend on electricity, %age of mortgage of my house
which Digital gets free use of, etc.  Perhaps I should review my own
accounts and decide that it isn't economically viable for me to pay
those costs incurred by Digital, and insist that I work in an office
(10 grand per head these days?  15 maybe?), and that the company pays
for my petrol and travelling time if the office isn't in a convenient
location for me.

Sounds petty, doesn't it.

Chris.

>    was triggered by another note elsewhere which pointed out that someone
>    in a trade rag suggested that DEC should get rid of notes since they
>    are time wasters. If an outsider makes such comments, isn't it time to
>    wonder if perhaps the symptom has turned chronic ??

	No, it just means that week was a slow week for the trade rag.
	That crap just makes fun headlines. You don't see too many
	headlines of:

	"DEC Notes prove to be an invaluable method of communication
	and are indispensable in getting the job done!"

	That doesn't sell.

	The problem is not with Notes, it with people with too much time
	on their hands.

	back to work,

								mike

    Originally, you propose that because people happen to utilize EINFs and
    games that they (the people) are de facto inefficient, offering no
    evidence to support this assertion, upper management should "mandate
    the end" of these items within Digital, which will (you again assert)
    make people de facto more efficient only because two possible
    diversions have been eliminated. 
    
    In reply .57, you seem to back off and say that if "management
    concludes" these items "escalate easing off" it should just get rid of
    them but "monitoring who is doing what is counter productive". 
    
    Please answer this, "vj": Just how should management conclude that
    EINFs and games "escalate easing off" without studying the matter and
    gathering data in some way? 
    
    Is it by listening to baseless rhetoric derived from a second-hand
    report of an article allegedly printed in a trade journal?

    
    rep .57
    
    >I don't think DEC management is so spineless that it wouldn't get rid
    >of what it believes is a problem and instead let it continue but engage
    >in subversive monitoring and try to gauge from time stamps/ monitor
    >connections as to who is doing what. Come on folks. Give a break.
    >If the managemnt could let go 10's of 1000's people, it could get
    >rid of EINFs (if it wants) before we can bat an eyelid.
    
    EINFs must not be a problem, by your own argument, Management would
    get rid of them if they were, wouldn't they??
    
    
    >Another comment here has been that the real problem lies with the
    >manager, who should be aware of how much their subordinates
    >produce.  Again not a very valid arguement.
    
    
    Of course this argument is valid, that is their job!!
    How is not making the Manager ACCOUNTABLE for his/her employees,
    not a very vailid argument.  Because it makes managemnt accountable,
    that is why they get the big bucks.  I do what I am told/asked to do.
    I don't get paid to make management decisions, and I don't get the
    6 figure, stock options, etc either.
    
    VJ, seems to me you'd like to cross over from us Worker Bees, to 
    the Management Bees.  And I know your first big Management decision
    would be to nuke the EINFs.  And I betcha the profits would neither
    go up nor go down, but until someone nukes them, we won't know will we?
    
    
    I think this is still work related, if not oh well.
    
    /art

>    Please answer this, "vj": Just how should management conclude that
>    EINFs and games "escalate easing off" without studying the matter and
>    gathering data in some way? 
    
    (It's Vijay, by the by, not "vj".)
    
    The above is what I'm wondering about here.  I tend to think we're all
    arguing/discussing based on feelings, not facts, as I don't think any
    facts *exist* on EINFs, do they?
    
    Lionel, Ainsley...could someone here shed light on this?  Are there any
    metrics on this?  There's no way to measure employee time spent on
    EINFs (and I'm beginning to be swayed that "yes, it *is* a management
    problem...probably one of which the average manager is unaware").
    
    I *would* like to be able to discuss this with some facts in hand, if
    possible.  And I think that, even if folks out there don't agree with
    Vijay, they should pull their punches a bit.  Good Lord, shouldn't
    *everyone* be as polite as I am? :^]
    
    								Tex

    .60

>    Please answer this, "vj": Just how should management conclude that
>    EINFs and games "escalate easing off" without studying the matter and
>    gathering data in some way? 
>    Is it by listening to baseless rhetoric derived from a second-hand
>    report of an article allegedly printed in a trade journal?

    Sure. Gathering data would be the starting point. Collecting data is
    different from subversive monitoring. The intents differ.

    .61 Art,

>    EINFs must not be a problem, by your own argument, Management would
>    get rid of them if they were, wouldn't they??

    How does one know, they have already examined the issue at all.
    
>    VJ, seems to me you'd like to cross over from us Worker Bees, to 
>    the Management Bees.  And I know your first big Management decision
    
    No chance in a zillion yrs, Art. I am just a consultant. In today. 
    Out tomorrow. Just happen to love DEC, is all.

    /vj

>    No chance in a zillion yrs, Art. I am just a consultant. In today. 
>    Out tomorrow. Just happen to love DEC, is all.

Hey! We're paying consultants to read notes files? 
This doesn't sound like good value for money.  Shouldn't
a consultant be working every minute we pay him?





 :-)

>    The above is what I'm wondering about here.  I tend to think we're all
>    arguing/discussing based on feelings, not facts, as I don't think any
>    facts *exist* on EINFs, do they?
    
logical thinking, Mr Spock.  ( :) if necessary)

Chris.

    The focus 
    	SHOULD BE ON
    		what the employee contributes 
    	NOT ON
    		whether he/she plays computer games or spends time on notes
    		spends time in toilet/lobby...while contributing to the 
    		organisation. I prefer people who work SMART and deliver
    		MORE to people who work HARD and deliver LESS.
    
    EINFs are a must for seamless communication within the organisation.
    
    Monitoring based on time stamps is just not logical because work
    patterns differ from individual to individual.
    
    If somebody is worried about resources (diskspace, CPU time...), 
    
    	- DELETE replies which digress from the main topic of a note
    
    	- Control duplication of topics by informing the base noters
    
    
    
    Sunder
    
    	
    

    and I bet it would take more wasted time 'policing' the notesfiles and
    disk space than it would save in resources.
    
    We could easily allocate a small 3100 & 3 x 1GB disk drives per office
    for notes files and not even notice the loose change.
    
    Look in IMM for good bargains - they just sold 16 RZ28's for $1 each.
    [I know, I missed it!]
    
    Alan
    

    Assuming that this Notes conference isn't an EINF then I'm pretty sure
    that I don't read any EINF's and so I suspect that I personally 
    wouldn't miss them if they all disappeared in a collective puff of 
    smoke at midnight.
    
    The question of whether we/Digital should do away with EINF's is 
    certainly as just a valid question as whether Digital should do away 
    with a large number of its offices (or VPs for that matter). It is only 
    through critical analysis and reflection of the environment in which we
    work do we find ways to improve.
    
    Why the base noter is finding that opinion is running 50 to 4 against
    in the replies has in my view nothing to do with the question itself
    but the context in which he framed the question.
    
    If he had chosen for a positive context ("Do EINF's provide sufficient
    added value to the company and if not what would we need to do to get
    that added value") instead of a negative one ("Should we remove EINF's 
    as they may be contributing to employee unproductivity") I believe that 
    he might find himself looking a little less like a pin cushion with all 
    those arrows sticking out his back. :-)
    
    If people are unwilling to accept the context in which a question
    has been posed then this does not necessarily indicate a closed mind nor
    an unwillingness to enter into an open discussion. To take things to
    the extreme to bring the point home this is why most people are not
    willing to enter a discussion on the best way to beat one's wife (or
    husband for the sake of gender equality).
    
    re roelof
            

Removing access to games and EINFs are against good business practice and
against company stated direction. For the same reason.

Treat a company's people like responsible adults, they act like responsible
adults. Treat them like children and thats how they'll behave. There are two
types of people that take value from the company by gameplaying and such like:
those that are treated like children and are living up to it, and those we don't
want anyway. Taking away the toys will not affect the ones we don't want and
alienate even more people. Its nett effect will be negative. The good business
solution is to trust people more, remove the excuses, identify and dismiss the
negative value.

BP has stated on numerous occasions that we are to "empower" the people. To me,
this is boss-speak for: Yes, we treat a lot of our people like children but we
know that if we are to succeed then we have to trust everyone like the
responsible people we need. There is no need to legislate against distraction
when most people feel responsible for their affect on the company. Peer pressure
is all the police force Digital needs.

Of course, we would all like to reduce wastage and save jobs. And, people's time
is the biggest source of wasted money in this and many other companies. But
trusting people is an opportunity, not a threat.

For example, one note mentioned requisitions for stationery. We all know that
requisitions cost more money in people's time than the stationery itself. You
want to save money, scrap these requisitions.

There are loads of examples in this notes conference alone. One string discusses
the problems of buying a book. By itself, it probably represents enough wasted
time to buy a library of books. Why not have a general rule which allows anyone
to buy any book that they feel will add value to Digital much greater than the
cost of the book. Just expense it. No authorisations, no form filling, no time
wasting. Abuse? Hands up those that will abuse it. Besides, any abuse will be
very obvious at expense time, and a serious offense like all expense abuses.

The company has invested a great deal of money in us. Most of us can directly
influence Digital revenues by thousands or millions of dollars. We can fail to
follow up on a customer promise, or be too sloppy on a service call, or "forget"
to process that one exception condition. After all, it'll never happen, no one
will ever know. Yet despite having all this authority, we cannot be trusted to
evaluate the cost-effectiveness of a $25 book or something and it costs the
company $100 or much more to check up on us.

Greyhawk wants to fire half of management. No need, trust people the way they
should be trusted and the entire raison d'etre for half of Digital management
will disappear. Same affect though :-)

I know that some will consider this utopian, or worse. But, consider the auto
industry when it was suggested that the lowliest worker had the power to stop
the entire production line at $1000s per minute. An ideal way of goofing off? I
forget the quoted figures but quality went through the roof, production
increased etc etc Abuses? None.

Or are we saying that we're less trust worthy than auto workers?

Mike.

re: "Look in IMM for good bargains"

What/where is IMM?

Pete

    
>    The question of whether we/Digital should do away with EINF's is 
>    certainly as just a valid question as whether Digital should do away 
>    with a large number of its offices (or VPs for that matter). It is only 
>    through critical analysis and reflection of the environment in which we
>    work do we find ways to improve.
    
    Yep.  The above is a good example of why the running of Digital should
    be ceded formally to Roeloef instead of just letting him do it behind
    the scenes. :^]  The following is a good example of why, when his book
    finally comes out, I'll be in line for the first autographed copy.
    
>    If people are unwilling to accept the context in which a question
>    has been posed then this does not necessarily indicate a closed mind nor
>    an unwillingness to enter into an open discussion. To take things to
>    the extreme to bring the point home this is why most people are not
>    willing to enter a discussion on the best way to beat one's wife (or
>    husband for the sake of gender equality).
    
    								Tex

	Hello? Is anyone out there? Does anyone really think that if they come
        up with a way to save money for Digital that it will cause management
        to retain job positions that it considers to be no longer needed? 
	That's the "old DEC" rather than the "new Digital" if I ever heard it!!!

	There are two issues raised here:

		1.) Do notes cost Digital money?

		2.) Will a profitable Digital retain unwanted job positions?

	The correct answer to both questions is NO!

		In response to question #1: In the information age we need to
                encourage interaction to remain competitive. Employee 
                performance is a management competence issue, (oxymoron?). 
                If employees don't perform then the managers should work to 
                correct the problem or terminate their employment. If the 
                managers don't correct the problem then the managers should be 
                terminated. Notes are vital to a healthy employee population.
		Why else would Bob Palmer use them?????

		In response to question #2: Unless you have been on the moon
                for about five years this answer needs no explanation.

	So much for my 2 cents worth, back to the silicon mines,....

	-D-

    With regard to improving efficiency and reducing waste by "utilizing 
    employee time to the max"...
    
    "When anything is used to it's fullest, it breaks." - Poulsen's Law
    
    Eliminating recreational notes conferences, games, whatever some use
    to temporarily break from the grind is (IMO) "peny-wise and
    dollar-foolish".  There are many very good people still working at DEC.
    Don't make the erradication of recreational Notes the straw that broke
    their backs.
    
    
    
    
    

>	So much for my 2 cents worth, back to the silicon mines,....
    
    As Lionel says, "Free advice is worth every penny".  Higher price, same
    theory.
    
    As Roelof says, and I concur, this is just another area to be analyzed. 
    I've seen zippo in here on:
    
    - associated costs
    - policies or procedures on creation/maintaining
    - total volume in number, storage size, access bandwidth, etc.
    
    Anyone have anything quantitative as opposed to emotional?  We've
    probably all seen enough "Ayes" and "Hurrahs" at this point.
    
    								Tex
    

difficult to say whether the costs come out of useable or redundant
resources.  I'm sure we can expect lots of arguments either way...

Chris.

    
    Using Tex's methodology, Roelof's focus, and IMM pricing, the total
    cost for all ENIFs is approximately $32.00 US for hardware. There
    is no quantifiable people cost since *ALL* mods do this in their
    spare (read not company) time. And resource utilization charges
    are so deeply hidden in every cost center that not even God could
    find them.
    
    So note happily away, my friends - it's a no brainer...
    
    
    			the Greyhawk

    Can we get beer and strippers this way, too?

    I got some beer Tex, but what is this stripper thing pls say again? :)
    
    Anyway, the quantitative estimate that you propose is a fine idea and
    even at the risk of having more pins thurst into my cushion back, let
    me hazzard a guess.

    Assuming John writes 5/6 lines a minute and performing simple
    maths, I should say that the total man hours that went into writing 
    notes since the inception of the Notes Conference  would be roughly
    (50 * file size in MB) man hrs. This is the small part.

    The larger part of the equation is time spent reading the notes. Here
    the brush strokes would be very wide. But guesstimating again, if  Jane
    reads 7 times as fast as John writes, and assuming 500 people follow
    that conference on a regular basis, then the man hours that went into
    reading the conference since it's inception would be at a rough guess
    about (7*500* file size in MB) man hrs. 

    Multiply these figures by 50 to get the $$$ if u wish. But these $$$
    are not necessarily from the company's pocket since all notes are not
    necessarily written on co's time. You will have to use some % there.

    These would be broad figure which assumes that exceptions cancels
    themselves out. eg someone may spend more time writing or someone may
    just paste  an existing article from somewhere. Again some people would
    skim over some notes, othere may read several times and brood over it. 

    I do not know how conference file sizes go, and for all we know the $$$
    figures may turn out to be miniscule and the issue could be settled once
    and for all as being a non-issue.

    ok. out with pins. here is the back.

    /vj

re:     <<< Note 4093.78 by AQU027::SAXENA "DEC! ReClaim Thy Name 'n Glory" >>>
                                 -< it hurts >-

<    I got some beer Tex, but what is this stripper thing pls say again? :)
    			      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    I think I saw one of these in Olongopo, PI
    
    ;^)
    
    tony	
    
    	

    Refinishing the furniture in the office .... hence the requirement for
    stripper?

    Re: .79 by ICS::BEAN:
    
    >I think I saw one of these in Olongopo, PI
    
    You did?  Were you anywhere near Subic Bay?  [PI? I thought it was
    PR - for Phillipines' Republic]

RE: .82

	Nope.. "The PI" is the common reference to the Phillipines.
	(PI=Phillipine Islands)

						mike

    yup... I was there.
    
    back in the dark days.  before color was invented.
    
    ;)

    Calvin: "So why didn't black and white pictures turn color after color
    was invented?"
    
    Dad: "Because they were actually color pictures of a black and white
    world."
    

Back to the base-noter's contention that notesfile usage
equates to lost productivity:

I would argue that for some that may be true.

For some, there is a productivity gain to be found in the tension
reduction that accompanies a break.  I may not get up from my desk
all day, but taking a mental break for a few minutes often returns me
refreshed to the task at hand.  Quantify that if you can...

For yet others, we rarely do only one thing at a time.

Currently, I have a test case running in one window, and a new
build running in another.  If I were not noting, I'd just be waiting
around for the build to finish.  Tell me how much productivity is lost.

It's not as cut-and-dried as it appears.  If you take away that which makes it
enjoyable to work here, I will continue to do my job, but maybe not much more
than that...

    .44
    
    > But this *is* a work related conference.
    
    BWAHAHAHAHA!!!
    
    {gasp}  Oh, excuse me, I was in SOAPBOX mode there for a minute.  I'm
    sorry to disillusion you, but ::DIGITAL is simply not a work-related
    conference.  This is an EINF in which people sometimes but certainly
    not always discuss business-related topics.  Which makes, it, quite
    seriously, identical in nature to SOAPBOX, where there is also some
    work-related discussion.
    
    I'll bet you that if you were able to perform a productivity analysis
    on the people who use EINFs and compare that analysis with one on the
    company as a whole, the EINF users would show up as being overall more
    productive.

Richard,

When did you become a manager in Corporate Employee Relations?

			Steve

>    {gasp}  Oh, excuse me, I was in SOAPBOX mode there for a minute.  I'm
    
    Always dangerous when you're in any conference *besides* SOAPBOX.
    
>    sorry to disillusion you, but ::DIGITAL is simply not a work-related
>    conference.  This is an EINF in which people sometimes but certainly...
    
    Wrong.   As someone pointed out, DIGITAL is not considered an EINF by
    management, although you may personally do so.  The amount of valuable
    info/contacts/answers that come out of this conference (albeit mixed w/
    humor and general electronic conversations) is considerable.
    
    				-------------
    
    And I'd like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who's helped
    me find the right contact, sent me equipment, put folks in need of
    DEC/EDI help on my trail, found everything from VTX options to how to
    dial 800 numbers from outside the US, and tons and tons more.  It's all
    been very much appreciated.
    
    								Tex

    Hate to rain on your parade(s), but non-business related notes
    conferences cost Digital money in nw bandwidth, cpu time, disk
    storage and lost productivity.  So far, DEC has been willing to
    eat this cost, but if the corporation chose to shut them down,
    we would all have to respect that decision for what it is.   
    Would you trade a raise for EINF?  Your answer would pretty
    much sum up your opinion of how important they are.  If you think
    DEC was less fun to work for without them, you simply are not
    living in reality.  For instance, think about working in a job
    that is controlled by bells to tell you when to work, and when
    not too.  Do you think any small business could afford the 
    perks we get here?  Face it, we have it made, and this notes
    string proves it. 
    
    Brad.

    
.91>    Hate to rain on your parade(s), but non-business related notes
.91>    conferences cost Digital money in nw bandwidth, cpu time, disk
.91>    storage and lost productivity.
    
    Can we have a reference to the studies that point to this conclusion?
    

    Do you need a study to prove the sun rises each morning?

Re: .93

No, but that is a measurable and readily visible occurrence.  Your conjectures
are not.

				Steve

    
    The sun rises, or it does not -- a simple, binary system that on most
    mornings is easily verifiable by all.
    
    Systems that contain more than one variable usually require more study
    before one sets out to "fix" them. I've seen software systems that were
    slowed down, resulting fron an honest attempt to speed them up with less
    than adequate information on the current state and how that state would
    be affected by the proposed change; what looked good in a microscope
    was devestating to the big picture.
    

    Brad's response tends to contain more reality than the opposing side. 
    EINFs are *not* free, based on the "no free lunch" theory.  But...what
    do they cost and are they worth it?  Hard to figure the latter w/o the
    former, 'eh?
    
    Steve, I'm *damn* surprised you suddenly jump in and say "Brad, where's
    your facts?".  I've been asking for some quantitative measures since
    this started and there's been naught but silence.  You of all people
    should be able to provide *some* figures!  You could at least provide
    what procedures (if any) are required to create a conference and
    advertise it in EASYNET_CONFERENCES.  My own gut feeling is that the
    majority of managers have *not a clue* what conferences their current 
    machines are hosting when they're signing reqs for new hardware!  Am I
    right?
    
    Those who say "EINFs are valuable" with zippo facts to support it
    shouldn't suddenly jump on the opposing side with "where are your
    facts?".  Hell, you'd think we're talking about skinning Mother Theresa
    here, when in fact it's whether DRNKNG::BEER is, in the grander scheme,
    useful and even known to management.
    
    								Tex

>    here, when in fact it's whether DRNKNG::BEER is, in the grander scheme,
>    useful and even known to management.
 
    It has come to my attention that beer is actually quite well known to
    management.

    
    re: .91
    
    Trade raise for EIFNs?   No. 
    
    Trade EIFNs for a raise? Yes. 
     
    What other options do I have?  ( ie. what other trades are possible? )
    
    jc
    As usual, :-) 
      

Re: .96 (Tex)

>    Steve, I'm *damn* surprised you suddenly jump in and say "Brad, where's
>    your facts?".  

Me too, especially since I said nothing of the sort.

I am not aware of any analysis of the "extra cost" of having a notesfile - most
of said costs are buried in the noise of our network.  A majority of EINFs
are hosted using spare disk space on individual workstations.  I have seen
a study of network traffic that showed NOTES traffic overall (including
business-related files) was less than 3% - the biggest chunk of bandwidth
was taken up by people copying product kits over the net.

I would like to point out that EINFs have a benefit too - they improve
employee morale, help solve problems that would otherwise detract from
employee productivity and help form a sense of community.  These are all things
which I believe (but can't quantify) make a net positive impact on Digital's
bottom line.  The "community", in particular, is what encourages some
employees to stay here at Digital rather than looking for a better-paying
job elsewhere.

Yes, there are individuals who abuse notesfiles (or e-mail or lots of other
potential time-wasters.)  These individuals should be dealt with by their
management.  Why make tens of thousands of employees unhappy simply because
a few hundred can't manage their time?

Upper management has already considered and formally rejected the notion
of eliminating EINFs, having apparently come to the same conclusions as I
mentioned above.

					Steve

>Me too, especially since I said nothing of the sort.
    
    I know.  But sometimes it takes a good sharp poke to get you going. :^]
    Sorry.
    
>are hosted using spare disk space on individual workstations.  I have seen
>a study of network traffic that showed NOTES traffic overall (including
>business-related files) was less than 3% - the biggest chunk of bandwidth
>was taken up by people copying product kits over the net.
    
    OK, bandwidth.  There's one of the numbers.
    
    Next, do you have anything on total conferences, work -vs- EINF, disk
    space, etc?  Also, Steve, what I'd *really* like to see is an
    explanation of the procedures or lack thereof.  I've got the suspicion
    that I could create EDITEX::DIXIE_SOAPBOX w/o any approval or even
    knowledge by management.  You comment that "most conferences are hosted
    on individual workstations" tends to support this.
    
    When we get all the facts, *then* I think this discussion might lose
    some of its emotionality and gain some objectivity.
    
    								Tex

Tex:

> I've got the suspicion that I could create EDITEX::DIXIE_SOAPBOX
> w/o any approval or even knowledge by management.

  Yes, you could.

  All you need to do to create ANY conference, EINF or not, is to
  type "Notes> CREATE/CONFERENCE <filespec>". Then populate it with
  the starter notes, and announce it.

  If you want it in the standard place (NOTES$LIBRARY:), you'll
  usually need privileges on the system or help from a privileged
  user.

  But you don't need anybody's approval; you just need the disk space.

  ATLANT::, my workstation, hosts six conferences which range from
  EINF through "Managment Disinterest" through work-related. Aside
  from occupying a few thousands of blocks (out of about 2,000,000)
  on one disk, there's no noticeable impact on the operation of my
  workstation. I wouldn't host SOAPBOX on ony system of mine under
  *ANY* circumstance, but hosting a few, low-access notesfiles is
  no big deal.
                                   Atlant

    Wasting disk space ?
    
    I have just been sent all ALL-IN-1 message with a 1.1 Mb word document
    attached. It had 186 recipients - most of whom were on different
    systems. So, that message (which was a FYI one...) now sits in 186Mb of
    disk space until the janitor program decides to delete it - assuming
    the average salesman doesn't file it for later use (cause he doesn't
    have TEamLinks and can't read it YET).
    
    Now, thats inefficient. 
    
    Alan
    

    
    re -.1
    
     What was it, a strategy document? Can you send it to me.
    
    
    
    - Mike Z.

re: .100 et al

Would you get the heck off the Soapbox schtick?  BACK40:: (Soapbox's home)
is a test machine.  It would run, with disks and power and CPU, 24 hours
a day, regardless of Soapbox's presence.  It's used to test the features
my group supports in a pre-V6.1 environment (much changed in V6.1).

Soapbox itself gets recycled when the disk gets full, so there's no huge
RAID cab or RZ73s supporting it.  It's one lonely RZ24.  The huge processor
we're wasting is a VAX 3100 model 38.  No backups are done.  No power to
the console.  It's clustered with my workstation, so it doesn't really
even need system management.

If you have an employee performance problem, address it directly.  Notes,
solitaire, usenet news, and water coolers are simply the outlets.  Even if
they provide no value, banning them to solve "the problem" is futile. The
time-wasters will find other outlets.  But what about everybody else? 
Since it's been shown that these have significant value to many, how can
there even be a question?   By banning EINF you'll still have time-wasters,
and now you've lowered morale, effected isolation, and cut information for
everybody else.  You've managed to affect only those who aren't your
problem.  Certainly not effective, and quite possibly very damaging.

IMHO,
\john

There is no approval process for starting a notesfile.  If you have the
resources to start it, you do it, then announce it (if you want) in the ususal
places.  The only time "corporate" will get involved is if the contents of
the file violate corporate policies (for example, an "offensive ethnic joke"
notesfile would be rapidly shut down, once it came to the attention of
management).  I've seen this happen in the past, but unless there is a clear
offense, you're pretty much on your own.  (Now the manager who "owns" your
system may decide that they don't want EINFs - that's their call.)

Indeed, this grass-roots aspect of notes is what has made it so successful
inside Digital.

				Steve

  I really wanted to stay out of this discussion, but it's gone on too long and
the will is weak :-).

  It seems to me that the real issue is whether we are computer professionals 
who need good management or peons who need constant supervision.  If Digital 
becomes a clock-punching, micro-managed company, we'll probably see the last 
of our top computer professionals walk out the door.  An earlier response 
suggested trading raises for EINFs; many employees feel that has already 
happened.  The one constant I hear in the why-I-stay-at-Digital discussions 
is access to Notes.

  No one is 100% productive in the 8-10 hours at work.  We take breaks, we 
use the copy machine, we make phone calls, we talk to other employees about
our kids, cats, dogs, cars, vacations, etc. etc. etc. and we read Notes.
The people in my group in SI are 90-98% utilized: either time spent at the 
customer site (mostly) or in training (one week a quarter).  Customer satis-
faction is excellent and we've all been renewed over and over again.  Those 
discussions we have with the customer about kids, cats, dogs, cars, vacations 
(after we've taken care of the work issues) are called building a relationship. 
In business, it's the relationship that makes the big difference time and 
time again.  This is just as true within Digital.

  Yes, we have slackers who abuse Notes; we always will.  I'm reminded of a 
very old story attributed to KO (I have no idea whether it's true or not - 
doesn't matter).  Ken supposedly was asked how many people worked for him at 
DEC and his response was "Oh, about half."

				SQ

    re .103 - you got it as a VMS mail message - enjoy !
    
    Alan

    
    SQ -
    
    	The quote came from an interview KO had in the "standing in the
    canoe" piece in FORTUNE magazine. Now major league folklore along
    with his comment on "trying to get 10,000 canoes all paddling in the
    same direction".
    
    	Fact is ENIF are generally a labor of love at DEC, and as such,
    should be respected, reveared, applauded, and appreciated. From this
    range rider's perspective, anything else is heresy.
    
    
    	Period. End of story.
    
    
    	 the Greyhawk

    You may be right Mr Corson, but that doesn't hide the fact that there
    is a cost to having notes files, just as there is a cost to having
    news feeds.  The corporation has a right to leave things as they are,
    or pull the plug (ala water coolers and WSJ).  
    
    My personal opinion of EINF is that there 'benefits' out weigh the
    costs considering none of us make competitive salaries.  The abuse
    of notes, taking long lunches, playing games, etc are clearly a
    management problem.
    
    Want to guess where I stand on that issue?
    
    Brad.

    When I first came to Digital, this Company was one of the most
    respected in the industry (of those who knew of DEC) and had great
    morale and productivity.  I wondered how this happened.  My conclusion
    was that at Digital, people were not strictly limited by P&P and direct
    supervision; they weren't put in a box.  People enjoyed being able to
    do more than what their basic job required of them.  Of course that
    caused success and the Company had to hire more and more people.  It
    was always a big problem.  In early 1973, with an employee population
    of over 9 thousand people, they had to go out and hire maybe a thousand
    of the best people they could find.  We got a lot of really good people
    and we got a few losers.  A few years later, they had to go out and
    hire 10 thousand of the best people they could find.  We got a lot of
    really good people and we got a few losers.  That number of losers
    grows with the number of people you are trying to hire.  So how do you
    integrate all those new people into the Digital culture?  The new and
    larger Digital required different management philosophies than before. 
    But I still think that a person who is free to do their job and MORE
    will be more productive than the person who is put into the box.  If
    you put up limitations, you will limit not only the undesirable
    behavior, but also the exceptional and good behavior which might exceed
    by far the undesirable behavior.
    
    No doubt Notes costs the Company time and resources.  I think there is
    an incalculable return.
    
    Bob

    What I don't understand is the following logic:
    
    	1) Person X wastes N hours per day doing T.
    	2) Management removes access to T.
    	3) Unable to access T, person X spends additional N hours per day
    		doing productive work.
    
    IMO, most people who are simply "wasting time" in Notes (as some have
    asserted), would follow the path:
    
    	1) Person X wastes N hours per day doing T.
    	2) Management removes access to T.
    	3) Unable to access T, person X begins wasting N hours per day
    		on T'.
    
    That's been the case with most hardened "time wasters" that I've known 
    over the years.
    
    It's also true that if people use Notes to "come up for air" once in a
    while during the day, the second scenario is much more likely to occur
    than the first.  If you really need a break, you'll take a break,
    whether you have access to Notes or not.
    
    I, therefore, believe that .0's proposal to increase productivity is
    well-intentioned, but would probably hide the symptoms without coming
    close to solving the problem (and this doesn't even address the issues 
    of ill-will generated, Internet newsgroups, and positive effects of EI 
    Noting).
    
    -- Russ

    There's another perspective (forgive if repeating)...
    
    I know that some of us go into noting mode while waiting for assistance
    on the help lines, like DECSALE.  Additionally, it's something to do 
    while on concalls, when conversation moves outside of a noter's purpose 
    to be on the call.
    
    One could argue that if we can multitask, there's more productive ways
    to do it than reading the BICYCLE note.  So who's perfect?
    
    The real issue always gets back to individual performance within group 
    goals.  If a person is a non-performer, the source of the problem should 
    be fixed or moved out.
    
    Want to save a job?  Beat the competition.  Live and breath marketshare
    gains.  Support your local sales rep./channel.  Maintain a winning
    attitude, despite the continuous knotholes.  Continue to challenge waste 
    in whatever form (wasteful noters included).  Get involved in elevating & 
    accomplishing team goals. 
    

As Steve pointed out in Note .99:

   > Upper management has already considered and formally rejected the notion
   > of eliminating EINFs...

What could be a bigger waste of money than performing a redundant analysis?


             -- Val

    re: .99
       I recently saw a chart which showed utilization of the EASYnet
    backbone. File transfers were the largest chunk, Mail was 19%, Notes
    was 11% and Internet Newsgroups were ALSO 11%. My guess would be that
    if Notes were taken away, the traffic would still exist, but more of it
    would occur on outside lines to get to Internet Newsgroups and WWW. A
    lot of the GMA network traffic used to be "free" since we owned the
    fiber. Now that we sold it, I don't know what we're paying for the use
    of it, but hopefully its a good deal. Since a large portion of the
    employees and notes files reside in the GMA, I would hazard a guess
    that much of this traffic is on private lines where as the Internet
    access is over leased or satellite lines where we pay REAL money to use
    the bandwidth. Seems like keeping Notes is a cheaper alternative, given
    that as others have stated, if some one is going to goof off, they'll
    find someway to do it. Taking something away won't make the goofing off
    stop.
    
    IMHO
    DEbbie
    

======
Note 4093.16             Save Digital Money. Save a Job                16 of 115
DRDAN::KALIKOW "DIGITAL=DEC: ReClaim TheName&Glory!" 17 lines  31-AUG-1995 19:54

    Don't get me started...  Imho it was bad enough when it was "rumored"
    that EINF's were going to be axed about 2 years back.  I was in the
    vanguard of those who took the issue to HR and convinced them, even
    then in the depths of our slump, that to kill EINFs would be folly.

    Imho again, I find it almost as depressing that someone NOT in
    management, who has been a participant in this very valuable forum,
    could get it in his head that EINFs are a Bad Thing.  Au contraire! 

====== 

I continue to believe that .0 is not among the Cadre of those who started, ran,
and resolved that debate a couple years back (albeit primarily _in camera_). 
Hearing no evidence to the contrary, I am thus logically forced to conclude NOT
ONLY that EVERYTHING from my .16 to now has been a COMPLETE and TOTAL WASTE OF
TIME, BUT ALSO that Every Single ManJack amongst you who persisted in haring
after this Red Herring drawn across your paths by someone who is not even a
Member Of Top Management (and thus ENTITLED BY DIVINE RIGHT or PRIMOGENITURE to
drag Red Herrings) ought to have your EINF access surgic... no No NO, wait, I'm
playing old tape...  

(nevermind)

:-)                              

    Dan, are you sure that this is written into top managment's contracts?

    The EVIDENCE, man -- look at the EVIDENCE!!!  :-)
    

A recent Dilbert comic strip (seems appropriate somehow):

1st panel (Dilbert is turning in his time sheet to an admin assistant).
Dilbert, "Here's my time sheet, filled out in increments of fifteen minutes."

2nd panel
Dilbert, "As usual, I coded the useless hours spent in meetings as "work,"
whereas the time I spent in the shower designing circuits in my mind is "non-
work."

3rd (and last) panel
Dilbert, "Interestingly, even the time I spend complaining about my lack of 
productivity is considered "work."

Admin assistant, thinking to herself, "I hate my life."

			SQ