Conference 7.286::digital

    I'll state the obvious -- the Right Thing for the vendor to do in that
    case is to have gone to Radio Shack themselves, have a bunch of
    THEM-bought cables on hand, and as many FedEx envelopes as there are
    customers who call...  
    
    Plus to be working furiously behind the scenes to correct the problem
    with their own HW source...
    
    And to be upfront with the customers about where the problem starts,
    and what they are doing about it -- on both sides.
    
    Anything less seems to me to be a prescription for failure...
    
    I'm curious as to what our relationship mgr with PCs Compleat will
    share with us about this.  Are we hearing the whole story?
    

    Your story is about par for the industry with respect to add-ons and
    cables, etc.   I don't think it reflects badly on PC Compleat - moreso
    on the original PC design that saved on 5 cm. of ribbon cable.  But
    still, that's the scrimping & saving you see in this low margin
    business.
    
    On the other hand, if PC Compleat were to react as Dan prescribed, now
    that would really *DELIGHT* me.  They would of course make a loss on
    that deal but they'd have one loyal customer.
    
    /Chris.

    
    I had the same problem. Went to a local computer store and told the
    salesperson I needed a longer cord. No problem, they said. They go 
    off and look for one, come back and hand it to me. I say "Thanks, how
    much is it?" They say "Tell you what, just give me or old one and we
    will call it even." I say "Thanks."
    
    Guess who gets my some of my business now?
    -Mike Z.

    
    Just to play devil's advocate here a minute.....
    
    Adding a second IDE device be it a CD-ROM or hard drive
    requires no extra cabling in most cases even in your system #.0.
    So, for it coming with no cables, I am not too surprised.
    As for them not being long enough is another story.
    I wish power cable extenders and splitters where more available.
    I am often tempted to make a few dozen on my own ans sell them.
    
    Now, why this was not told you by PC Compleat is disturbing.
    
    I recently ordered a complete system from them (no delivery yet)
    and not old about a sub-woofer that come with or is available for
    the system. Guess I better call them. Again.
    
    Rick A
    

    gosh,                    
    
    I bought a clothes dryer and no power cord...    The salesman 
    did offer to sell me this before I took it home.
    
    I bought some speakers the other day and they did not come
    with speaker cord...
    
    Maybe PC Compleat could be more proactive and sell power cords? 

    It is always better to be proactive then reactive...

Dear C_Bennett:

  I'm sorry,but your attitude is, IMHO, very much broken. Read
  this quote from .0 again, and see if you have any more empathy
  with *THE CUSTOMER*.

> I recently purchased a CD-ROM from our new PC Vendor (PCs Compleat). 
> I told the sales person EXACTLY which model I had (DECpc LPv+ 433dx).
> Initially, the sales person was helpful and indicated that the drive
> that I selected would work in the PC that I had.

  While it is perfectly ordinary for an internal-mount add-on
  drive to ship without power cord or bus cable, in this case,
  *THE CUSTOMER* was assured that the add-on device would work
  in the system *THE CUSTOMER* already owned.

                                   Atlant

    Such is the sad state of the industry (PC portion in particular).
    Unsuspecting customers are being sold unworkable solutions by
    uninformed sales folks who in many cases work for uncaring companies in
    an increasingly unstable industry. It's understandable, if
    unforgivable. Unfortunately this is not unusual and PC Complete is not
    unlike many (most) companies in the largely unregulated telemarketing/
    mail order end of the business.
    
    -OFWAMI-

    What is PC Complete's return policy. Are there restocking charges
    etc.....

  That would certainly be *MY* next question. But I'd ask about
  whether the entire computer was returnable. :-)

                                   Atlant

    Places like Hard Drive International (Insight) tell you up front when
    you order add-on drives if its a bare drive or drive kit which includes
    cables and mounting hardware. Why should PCcomplete or anyone else not
    do the same?  Answer: Because people put up with it.
    
    If you decide to keep the unit you might try Dalco Electronics. They
    carry extension cables of various types (IDE, SCSI, Power, Keyboard, 
    Monitor, etc) plus a number of other PC related hard to find items. 
    (800)445-5342.  
                                                                      

    re .7
    
    Fred - you're really UNique

    Dear ATLANT::SCHMIDT,
    
    I am sorry that you find my attitude "IMHO" -> WTM (whatever that
    means) and very much broken.  I'll type slower ok? ;=|
    
    My clothes dryer and my speakers worked once I purchased the other 
    parts if you want to know.
    
    My suggestion is that invoiced items may require case by case decisions 
    for a subparts list that the PC Compleat people maybe want to educate 
    there customers order entry clerks and sell these - on a case by case 
    basis.    
    
    For the invoice in question,  .0 probably sees 1 line item.   That 1 line 
    item is the CD which does not have a cord right?    If so he got
    what he ordered didn't he?   If this is not the case and the
    1 line item does contain a cord, maybe it should be sold as a 
    seperate line item and the customers service people should sell
    this seperately on a case by case basis?   
    
    I am sorry if I offended you Atlant.   Have a nice day.
    

  You're missing the point. In most circumstances, an add-on
  drive *DOESN'T NEED* either a power cord or a bus cable.
  It simply plugs into an existing power pig-tail and an
  existing drop off the SCSI- or IDE-bus cable.

  Something went wrong in .0's order. Even though they had
  the good sense to ask if their system would accept this
  (cable-less) CD-ROM, they were mis-informed by the vendor.
  A chance to delight this customer (with a problem-free
  installation of a well-priced, well-spec'd component)
  was lost. And subsequently, they seem to have had
  trouble getting the vendor to make things right.

  Such vendors eventually get the death penalty from the
  customers once word gets around.

  And this is a microcosm of one of those "simple problems"
  that has nearly driven Digital Equipment into the ground
  (even though it occurred in a now-spun-off subsidiary).

                                   Atlant


P.S.: IMHO = "In My Humble Opinion".

Chip:

> That 1 line item is the CD which does not have a cord right?
> If so he got what he ordered didn't he?

  No. The .0 noter ordered a CD-ROM that would work in their
  system. Can you see the subtle distinction here?

                                   Atlant

    FWIW, COMPAQs, even the top of the line DeskPro's, ship with an IDE
    disk cable with only one drop.  If you want to add another IDE disk,
    you buy another cable.  HP uses a cable with two drops, as do we.

    Not a problem with PCs Compleat, my observation as I am a DEC (excuse
    me, Digital) employee, but our customers will view it differently and
    go to another vendor. 
    
    I ordered a Starion and the catalog stressed delivery as 8/24/95- same
    day as Windows 95. Called today and still has not shipped, probably not
    until the end of next week or the week after. I asked the problem--
    Digital has not delivered to PCs Compleat yet, therefore, no delivery
    until they get them.
    
    Sigh.......

    RE .14 and the running word games between Curt and Atlant
    
    Ahh, but you see, you're both right. Curt argues that an informed and
    intelligent PC buyer has some level of responsibility for ordering the
    right components to make whatever it is work and Atlant argues that PC
    Complete has some moral (if nothing else) obligation to somehow know
    what each and every buyer needs for his/her particular system and
    properly inform the buyer of all needed components. I agree. 
    
    Having been down this path with my own home systems (many power splitters 
    and extension cables later) I can at least witness to the fact that it's 
    pretty impossible for someone at a store or on the phone to know exactly 
    how the disks in your machine are mounted/connected and how many other
    things you may have powered off the power supply already. 
    
    Assuming that the basenoter tried to carefully explain all that and was 
    still told "no problem this will work" (a favorite sales phrase), then I 
    would agree that he has recourse to send the CD back. It may well be that
    some (maybe most) PC Compleat telesales people do not have full
    technical knowledge of all the Digital PC models that they have to
    support, but then neither do any telesales people that I've ever run
    into yet. So, buyer beware! When you're in PC land, never go where the
    grinning cat sends you, without being skeptical and cautious.
    
    FWIW, IMHO, ;^) 
    
    -OFWAMI-

    I have a separate complaint about PC Compleat.  I've been wondering
    who to call, but I'm far too lazy to do any real research...
    
    I've made three phone calls to PC Compleat.  Once as an individual,
    once as a Digital Employee and once representing another business
    (after I was told that as an Employee I could not get information from
    PC Compleat, which turns out to be untrue).
    
    In one case it was a fine phone call, all questions answered, very
    friendly sales rep.
    
    But the other two cases... Never before in any kind of sales situation
    have I been told this "I'm sorry, I can't answer any more questions,
    I'm on commission and if you're not buying right now..." and asked me
    to hang up.  True I wasn't buying at that moment, and it's true now
    that I never will buy from them.  But it didn't need to be true.
    
    Commission or not, you don't generate sales by dissing someone.
    
    I am not impressed.
    
    Ken B.
    Seattle

    
    re. .18
<     But the other two cases... Never before in any kind of sales situation
<     have I been told this "I'm sorry, I can't answer any more question
<     I'm on commission and if you're not buying right now..." and asked
<     me to hang up. 
    
    I believe that the rule of thumb used to be that if a customer had a
    good sales experience, he/she told 2 people. If they had a bad sales
    experience, 22 people were told.  Want to guess how many people get the
    bad message in cyberspace today???

    Ok    so it never came with cables because it should adapt
          but it doesn't adapt, maybe an ECO should be generated
          and cables should be shipped?
    
    Who owns this? 
    
    It sounds like they have room to correct this - or does Digital
    own this?
    
    A good parts database with breakouts would be all they need.  
    What other models can this CD ROM be adapted to and do they
    have similar problems?   Maybe other models don't have this
    problem? 
    
    It sounds like they are in the "do whatever it takes" mode - do 
    whatever it takes to make commissions in spite of customer 
    satisfaction - not good.   

	PC Compleat is *not* Digital/DEC regardless of whether they
	now own telesales of Digital/DEC PCs (note: they also sell
	other brands of PCs)...PC Compleat will sell this CDROM drive
	to anyone, not just owners of Digital PCs...its wishful thinking
	to believe that it would be possible for a PC Compleat or any
	telesales rep (or computer store rep for that matter) to somehow
	have a reference for *every* model of *every* brand of PC out
	there..instead, they are going to *assume* (wrongly in this
	case) that the purchaser has done the homework necessary to
	determine what pieces *in total* are needed...IMHO, the basenoter
	should have opened the box *before* calling PC Compleat, noticed
	that the IDE/power cables looked like they might be short, and
	asked the telerep whether the drive included extension cables and,
	if not, add them to the order...

	oh, and btw it looks like the basenoter is trying to add an
	IDE based CDROM to a DECpc LPv+ connected to the mb IDE
	controller...this wouldn't have worked anyway since the LPv+'s
	IDE controller only supports (2) hard disks (eg its not an EIDE)...

	summary: if you are going to do-it-yourself, you better know
	what you're doing ;-) that is not the telereps job...

	_kelley

_kelley:

> 	oh, and btw it looks like the basenoter is trying to add an
> 	IDE based CDROM to a DECpc LPv+ connected to the mb IDE
> 	controller...this wouldn't have worked anyway since the LPv+'s
> 	IDE controller only supports (2) hard disks (eg its not an EIDE)...

  Oh well, what do I know? That's why I buy that high-priced brand,
  where the disks are (well, "were") all SCSI (and the expansion
  disks still are), and the power and SCSI bus cables actually
  reach to the intended drive bays, and they drive TERMPOWER and
  everything!
                                   Atlant

    Let me tell you my recent story regarding an experience I am having in
    trying to order some PC options.  I have been pointed to PC-by-DEC.  I
    am not sure if they are the same as PC's Complet but my story is along
    the lines of the original base note.
    
    I work in marketing and we travel a lot - some of us travel
    internationally.  We have recently obtained HiNote's to use on the
    road.  When ordering a modem for my HiNote I ordered the
    "International" version of our PCMCIA modem.  The modem comes with the
    PCMCIA card, a cable that goes from the card to an adapter, and adapter
    that ends in (for the US) an RJ11 phone jack.  There are other adapters
    available for other countries.
    
    After trying to figure out the part numbers of the other adapters (they
    are NOT included in the manual) I placed an order for the adapters for
    the UK, Japan, and Australia.  The order was placed with DECdirect;
    the same way I ordered the modem.
    
    My order was rejected.  Why, you might ask.
    
    The answer is that I am trying to order "International" parts and they
    cannot be ordered in the US!  Apparently they (whoemever "they" are)
    never planned on people travelling from the US to a foreign country.
    
    BEFORE I go any further let me say that I have found a sympathetic
    product manager who is trying to sort all of this out...
    
    I called DECdirect to ask how do I order "International" parts in the
    US.  I was told that they did not know but that I can not order PC
    parts from DECdirect (eventhough I did in the past and have since done
    so) and must call PC-by-DEC.  They gave me a phone number to call.
    
    I called the PC-by-DEC number.  After being on hold for several minutes
    I finally got to a sales representative who did not give me his name. 
    I identified myself as a Digital employee by name.  I said that I was
    told to call them as I wanted to order some PC components for in-house
    use.
    
    I was then very rudely told that they were only a retail sales outlet,
    to talk to my manger to find out how to place my order, that the person
    I was talking to no longer worked for Digital, and WAS HUNG UP ON!
    
    Just thought people might find this interesting

    The problem I am worried about is not PC Complete but the *fact* that
    any person or company that will be calling DIRECTLY to Digital to order
    one of our PC's will be talking to some other company!
    
    If we were going to sell off our direct channel then have it CLEARLY
    indicated that "you are not talking to Digital" both in print/catalogs
    and on the phone.  I for one didn't catch the change right away because
    the PC catalog looks almost the same.
    
    I believe it is a mistake not to make the change OBVIOUS!!!!   How many
    people and organizations will go-away-mad all the time cursing Digital?
    
    It is too close for comfort.
    
    Ira

    At separation-time, we should have insisted that they be called 
    
    "PCs Compleat by DEC".
    
    Let those other guys take the heat!!
    
    :-)
    

    
    RE: .16
    
    I have a Starion and 17-inch monitor on order.
    System, I was told , due in Aug 31st. GREAT !
    but monitor is now out to Sep 30th. Bummer....
    
    I am going to check again later today. I will
    let you all know. Or, whomever is interested that is.
    
    Rick A

    
     I too have a Starion on order (for about a month now) and was told
     that it would be in on the 31st of this month. I have my doubts
     though.
    
     I've had a few problems dealing with PC's Compleat also. I repeatedly
     called the sales rep. who originally took my order and left numerous
     voice mail messages (since she was NEVER available) to have her call
     me back. I even spoke with other sales reps. there who said they would
     have her return my calls. She has never called me back!! That
     infuriates me!!
    
     I also asked them to FAX me a copy of my order quote. They said that
     would be no problem. Never got it. I had to go down to the Marlboro, MA 
     office myself and get it. I will say that the person I dealt with in
     Marlboro was extremely friendly and very helpful.
    
     John

Hmm - it would seem that they took on a few too many of the PC-BY-DEC
staff.

				Steve

    
    NEWS UPDATE..... down town Marlboro.....
    
    I just called PC Compleat Credit to see if they got the check.
    They did. Need a few days to clear. Doesn't sound good. So, I 
    called the Marlboro facilty to setup a pickup. Was told Digital
    (not DEC) has not delivered any Starions as yet. Date is now
    UNKNOWN. There goes the weekend. All that preparation for nutin'
    
    Damn, now I am bummed.
    
    Rick A

When has Digital ever delivered new PCs on time?  (Or even old ones.)  
Plus �a change plus �a m�me chose.

				Steve

    try a Presario. then compare 'lead times', Digital / Compaq in the
    retail space.
    
    AW 

re .31

>Plus �a change plus �a m�me chose.
>
>				Steve

Hey, he speaks French! Quick, send him to the Mexico City office ...

How do I say "The pen of my aunt is under the table" in Spanish?  My mandatory
Spanish classes (in Florida, on "Educational Television") never got me much
past "I would like to buy a chocolate ice cream cone for a dollar" (and I 
don't even remember that anymore...)

					Steve

    
    I was all set to buy a Starion 940 for my father. I looked in this
    conference for the PCs Compleat number (what is a "compleat", anyway?),
    and came upon this notes string.
    
    Long lead-times. Rude customer-service people. Nonstandard monitors
    required (dad has a plain old 14" .28dp SVGA). Who knows what else.
    
    I was ready to buy it today. Now, I'll watch this string for about a
    week or so, to see if things improve. If not, we will have to go
    another way. 

    What's this about "nonstandard monitors required"?  How do these
    things get started, and worse, why are they believed?
    

I called PCs Compleat a few weeks ago to find out about Digital offerings in 
the Starion line and got some sales rep who was very curt, didn't seem to want 
to answer my questions and actually asked if I was serious about buying a 
computer TODAY! When I said I was just gathering info at this point he said 
they sold more than just Digital products and he would send me their 
catalogs...click.

I am now waiting to see how things turn out before buying a Starion for my 
mother and possibly ex-wife #2.

Jim

    Re .31:
    
    > Plus �a change plus �a m�me chose.
    
    Uh, that's "Plus �a change, plus c'est la m�me chose."
    
    M
    
    PS:  Sorry, Steve... :-) 

    Re: .38
    
    Sorry - I was using my aunt's pen to write that.
    
    				Steve

    Re: .36
    
    They get started because the PCs Compleat people get insufficient
    information and draw their own conclusions.  It would seem from what
    I've been hearing (my office neighbor has been on the phone to them a
    lot) that they've been left in the dark.  They also get started because
    Digital has done this sort of thing in the past.
    
    Who in PCBU is the liason to PCs Compleat and why aren't they
    preventing problems like this?
    
    					Steve

>How do I say "The pen of my aunt is under the table" in Spanish?

        La pluma de mi t�a est� debajo de la mesa.

    
>    Sorry - I was using my aunt's pen to write that.
>    
>    				Steve

    Re:28
    John,
    
    I've found that if I don't get a call back or get a response which is
    acceptable to me, it's in my best interest to get the person's full
    name and escalate the problem to their manager.  Just call back and ask
    for the manager and see where you get.  While you're at it, you might
    want to put in a good word for the individual who was so helpful.  Many
    times in our frustration, we get the message through about the
    negative, but forget to comment on the positive.
    Good luck.
    Sue
    

    
    
    And yet again........
    
    I call again, got yet another sales rep and she went off
    to find out where my system is. Got a call back. She said,
    for sure "no soap" for delivery today. Could be as bad as
    end of Sept. This is not good.
    
    Are other manufacturers having the same problem ?
    Should I go somewhere else, and probably pay more ?
    
    Oh well, maybe I will get a surprise call.... next week.
    
    Rick A

    
    
    >What's this about "nonstandard monitors required"?  How do these
    
    I read in a note in this string (maybe the now-vanished .24?) that 
    a specific monitor from Digital was required. I took it to mean that
    a generic SVGA monitor would not work with the system.
    
    >things get started, and worse, why are they believed?
    
    Hey, I'm the first to admit that I'm the dumbest guy in here. Most of
    the "for dummies" books are way over my head. "For the completely
    and totally brain-dead" might be more my speed. Thats why I depend 
    heavily on Notes, and generally assume that my fellow noters are 
    about 100 times more knowledgable than I am. When I upgraded my 
    motherboard and CPU a few months ago, I read every motherboard-related 
    and CPU-related note in IBMPC-95, asked a few stupid questions, asked a 
    few more utterly redundant ones, and basically took the postings there 
    as gospel. As a result, I was able to upgrade my 486DX-33 with 20MB RAM 
    to a 486DX4-100 with 36MB. The notes conferences are my primary research 
    tool; I don't do *anything* to my computer without reading the notes
    files first. If I read a posting in a notes conference that says "you 
    can't do this without that", and nobody rebuts it, then I figure it is 
    true.
    
    Thats why, at least in my case, "these things" were believed. If it's
    not true, then thank you for edifying me.
    

I had a chat this morning with a PCBU marketing manager and raised some of
the issues mentioned here.  She said she'd pass them on to the appropriate
people.  I also offered suggestions as to how to make the PC web pages more
useful to shoppers.

				Steve

.36>    What's this about "nonstandard monitors required"?  How do these
.36>    things get started, and worse, why are they believed?
    
    This appears in IBMPC note 513.85 and as far as I'm concerned is still
    an unanswered question.
    
    Similarly -- though I can't find the note right now -- I recall reading
    a note to the effect that the Starion monitor output is an RGB cable
    instead of the standard PC cable. Hence the need for special monitors.
    
    Nowhere have I read that these statements are incorrect. It would be nice
    to know that I can keep my current NEC 4FG monitor and use it with a
    Starion (930), but this kind of information seems to be secret.
    
      John

    RE: "unstandard monitors"  - If you look at the web page, there is
    a detailed technical description 
    
       (see http://www/pc.digital.com/support/starpaper.htm )
    
    In there, you will see the S3_Trio_32 graphics controller for the
    lower end models and the S3_Trio_64 board for the 930 and 940.
    This is the same garphics as the previous Starion family and 
    the discussion of "non-standard" never came up before.  Give
    some of those sales folks a break (and to the marketing folks - 
    make sure you give them all the real technical details up front
    so they don't have to speculate in order to make a sale!).
    
    m

The latest I heard about the "non-standard" issue was confusion about the
power cord.

				Steve

    Where this confusion came up (I'm not going to look for the 
    specific notes) is that someone wanted to order the non-starion
    Digital PC 17" monitor on a Starion system.  PCsCompleat said
    that it wouldn't work due to a cabling issue.  It turns out the
    "issue" was that the non-Starion monitor included a cable to
    plug the monitor into the PC, not a separate outlet.  The
    Starion did not support this.  The problem was NOT a non-standard
    VGA problem.  Furthermore, the monitor in question would work
    just fine with the Starion, provided you scrounged up an appropriate
    power cable.
    
    My local Sam's Club has (or had) a NEC monitor connected to the
    Starion 800i (or whatever the high-end Sam's spring model is-- the 
    one that does not come with a monitor).  Works great.  The fall
    line should be no different (in this respect).
    
    I don't know the specifics of the NEC 4FG, but if it is a
    multisync SVGA monitor, it should work fine.  Standard VGA
    cabling is all that is required.
     
    Jim (a very satistfied Starion owner)

.48> RE: "unstandard monitors"  - If you look at the web page, there is
>    a detailed technical description 
>    
>       (see http://www/pc.digital.com/support/starpaper.htm )
    
    "404 Not Found
    
     The requested URL /pc.digital.com/support/starpaper.htm was not found
     on this server.
    "
    
    Not to worry, I'd probably get a blank page if I had the right URL anyhow.
    I've already tried to get the answer via WWW and just got blank pages
    when I followed links supplied elsewhere. Must be my fault for using MOSAIC.
    
.50> I don't know the specifics of the NEC 4FG, but if it is a
>    multisync SVGA monitor, it should work fine.  Standard VGA
>    cabling is all that is required.
    
    Thanks. It's nice to have a straight answer.
    
      John

  Is .49 saying that the Starion *DOESN'T HAVE* an IEC power
  outlet into which one can plug the monitor (so that monitor
  power is switched with the system box's power)?

  If so, does this strike anyone else as "Really cheap"?

                                   Atlant

    Ever take a look at the back of a top of the line COMPAQ DeskPro...?
     

    Re: .51
    
    There seems to be a typo in the URL;  try
    
    http://www.pc.digital.com/support/starpaper.htm
    

    As for late monitors...there seems to be a shortage of certain monitor
    sizes industry wide.  I've seen a reference to this in PC Week recently
    (may have been Spencer's column) and somewhere else as well.
    
    ken b.

    Also, larger monitors (17" and above) usually draw too much power to be
    permitted (by UL rules or the power rating of the switch) to plug into the 
    "convenience outlet".
    
    				Steve

Steve:

  In all honesty, this seems unlikely:

    o The outlets on my Macintoshes are rated at 3 amps (360 VA
      or "Watts"). That's pplenty of power to run even a big monitor
      nowadays.

    o VAXstations (since the VS3100) have traditionally powered 19"
      monitors from the outlet on the back.


  The IEC power cord can be rated at 7 amps. Deduct what the system
  box uses and the balance is available for the convenience outlet,
  limited only by the ampacity of the relay or switch in the power
  supply.
                                   Atlant

WRT the base note about PC Compleat, here are my experiences:

+ Availability and telephone tag

   In early July, I found the PC Compleat representative much more
   available than recently. The FAX (product features and EPP price) I
   requested came within hours. When I called this PC Compleat
   representative in July, she would usually answer the phone.

   Recently when I call her (late August), I usually only get her voice 
   mail.  The FAX I requested took a few days to arrive, not hours.

   I asked her why she was so busy. She said that the introduction
   of the Celebrus GL and Starions have resulted in increased volume.
   I am sure there are a few extra questions related to Win95 as well.

+ Accurate information and the Digital PC web page

   There is a fair amount of confusion with any new product introduction.
   Having a PC web page with product specifications will certainly help
   reduce the confusion and phone volume about the Starion retail PCs.

   Before the Web page was available, I asked a Starion product manager
   for some help gathering some accurate information for my own knowledge
   (I recently ordered a Starion) and the DECSTATION notes file
   note 6164. Replies from the product manager were returned
   quickly, often answered after 6PM. I sent a summary to the PC Compleat
   representative.

   Like Steve Lionel, I pointed out a few problems with the PC Web page
   and had a few suggestions on how to improve the content of the
   Starion page. 

-Mike

    Re:-1

    Steve is correct. For example, the AlphaStation 200 and 400 have
    power supplies that have a convenience outlet rated for 2A at 115V.
    Monitors drawing more than 2A ship with an ac cord that plugs into a
    wall receptacle. These are industry standard PC power supplies.

    Some of the newer cost-reduced power supplies eliminate the
    convenience outlet altogether.

    Regards,
    Terry

Terry, et. al.:

  Steve may be correct in certain circumstances, but I think
  you'll find most "17-inch" monitors still fall at or under
  2A. I'll go over to Computer City at lunchtime and take a
  "scientific" [:-)] poll, but a fair sampling of DEC 17"
  monitors is definitely <= 2A.

  And I stand by my basic statement: Omitting the convenience
  outlet is nothing more than "CHEAP".

  By the way, here's a quick sampling of some monitors I found
  around my area. Note that some of these are pretty old stuff.

    VR241       (13" TV standards)  1.3A
    Apple RGB   (13" Trinitron)     1.6A

    VR297-DA    (16" Trinitron)     2.2A           (>2A)

    VRC16-CA/HA (17")               2.0A
    PCXBV-KA    (17")               1.8A, 100W
    VRT16-HA    (17" Trinitron)     2.9A           (>2A)

    PCXAV-F     (19" Phillips
                 Trinitron-like)    2.6A           (>2A)


  I guess it makes sense that the outlet on the Macintoshes is
  rated 3 Amps; that seems to accomodate all reasonable monitors.
  But that's *REAL* "Plug-N-Play" for you.

                                   Atlant

The VRT17 (PCXAV-EC) is 2.7A.

		Steve

One "Rah Rah" for PC Compleat

I bought a PC from PC Compleat about 3 months ago.  The person I dealt with
was helpful, courteous, and knew his stuff!  This was refreshing after 
dealing with the knuckle heads at other COMPuter stores in the USA.  
When it became clear that DEC didn't want to sell me a Starion, the salesman 
at PC Compleat spent allot of time with me selecting a comparable system.  
Also, I've been very happy with their technical support.  

Your mileage may vary

    How do we order PC stuff for Internal Digital Use?
    
    We purchase PC components (disks, memory, monitors, etc) for internal
    use by our cost center.  In the past we used to simply place an order
    with DECdirect and the items would arrive.
    
    Lately, however, we have orders cancelled.  The reason given was that
    we are ordering PC parts and they can no longer be ordered from
    DECdirect - we need to order from PCs Compleat.  The problem is that
    whenever I have called PCs Compleat and have stated that I work for
    Digital and want to order something "and have it charged to my cost
    center" I am rudely told that they are only a RETAIL sales outlet. 
    When I ask how to order items for "internal use" all they say is "ask
    my manager".
    
    How are we supposed to order PC-related items for internal use?

RE: -.1

 In-house ordering at VTX DOC or IEG at VTX IEG should contain 
 the information and contacts you need.

    Thanks for the pointer - I spoke to a person at IEG.  Bottom line is
    that if you want to order any PC-related stuff that is now sold by PCs
    Compleat you need to cut a PO just like for any other outside vendor. 
    There is no longer any "internal" way to order these types of items.
    
    At least this is what I was told

    Re: .65
    
    We order all pc stuff that Dec makes thru IEG, not thru the path
    we order stuff from external vendors. like when we buy Macs.  Try
    getting in touch with Amanda Tomczyk, the person we send our Dec
    pc orders to.  Maybe her group is materializing POs for this, but
    if so, it's invisible to me.
    

    
    I'd tend to agree with .60
    
    Eliminating the convenience socket is a cost savings matter, albeit
    a cheap one.
    
    And it makes it so the customer has to turn on the system and turn on
    the monitor, when most other vendors customers, simply turn on the 
    computer.  I'm getting lazy or spoiled in my middle age, I don't want
    to turn on the system and monitor, the monitor is part of the system,
    isn't it, and as I'm the customer and lazy/spoiled, it should require 
    only one button.
    
    I just got rid of speakers because the power button and controls were
    on the back one of the speakers, I had to keep turning one of them 
    around to turn them on, or turn up the volumn or adjust the bass.
    One can say "So What", but seeing how I'm the CUSTOMER and other 
    vendors offer what I want, if you don't offer it, I won't buy from 
    you, what a concept, if you don't like what they do, hit them in the
    pocket book, demonstrate your dissatifaction with your feet, and
    "maybe" we'll get the message.  But as our heads might be buried in
    the sand, we may not get the message.  But we won't get the money
    either.
    
    
    /art (who is still noting about work)

> Steve may be correct in certain circumstances, but I think
> you'll find most "17-inch" monitors still fall at or under
> 2A. I'll go over to Computer City at lunchtime and take a
> "scientific" [:-)] poll, but a fair sampling of DEC 17"
> monitors is definitely <= 2A.

  Well, survey sez:

    Sony 17SF1  (17" Trinitron)             1.8A
    Apple Multiple-Scan 17 (17" Trinitron)  2.0A
    Nokia 447L  (17")                       1.8A
    Nokia 447X  (17")                       2.0A
    KDS -- Korean Data Systems (17")        1.2A

    Phillips "MagnaScan/20" (20")           1.5A
    Apple Multiple-Scan 20 (20" Trinitron)  3.0A  (>2.0A)


  This was *EVERY* 17"+ monitor that Computer City had on display.
  You'll note that only one monitor (a 20-incher) exceeded 2.0A,
  and it is now possible to buy a 20" monitor that comes in com-
  fortably under the 2 Amp limit. And no monitor at all has ex-
  ceeded 3.0 Amps. (Anyone remember what the big old VR290 drew?)

  I submit that the "Big monitors need big power" argument is
  simply bogus.

  (I couldn't ascertain which system boxes had convenience outlets;
  I'd used up all my "skulking-around" quota turning all the monitors
  around so I could read their nameplates. But several extreme-low-
  end systems still had convenience outlets.)

                                   Atlant

    Just called the customer sat line at PCs Compleat. The Starion I
    ordered 2 weeks ago still has not shipped. She stated the word they 
    have back from the supplier (digital) is that it may come in 0n 9/15.
    However, she stated that this date is subject to change. She stated
    digital is horrendous with coordinating shipment dates. The other
    vendors that they use are not nearly the same problem as Digital with
    commitments and shipping dates.

    Part of the problem with Win95 FIS (factory installed software)
    Starions was that Microsoft slipped the OEM kit delivery, but
    kept the August 24th launch date.  Vendors that were promised
    the OEM kit 6 weeks in advance, in time to do something with it,
    got screwed.  You should find that other vendors with Win95 FIS
    boxes are also currently dancing due to Microsoft.  Our FIS folks
    put in long hours to try and make up some of the slip.  Certainly,
    the decision by the PCBU to tie machine intros with the Win95
    launch is open to debate.  .02 Kratz 

Starion 915 and 940 systems showed up at Lechmere yesterday.

			Steve

    Just as another data point, the NEC XE21 is rated at 2.1 amps.
    
    Now, about buying Digital PC's.... I work on a worldwide program that
    is consuming Digital Venturis and Celebris systems at an incredible
    rate. We expect to lease many thousands of them to this customer over
    the next 3 years. Where do we have to purchase them? OUTside. We
    currently have to buy them from MicroAge. It's a major pain in the
    butt. 
    
    Systems show up late, in several pieces, with incredibly old system
    BIOS revisions. (If they're in such short supply, then why do we get
    such old systems?) The most recent experience was an order for 12
    Celebris 590's with 16 MB ram, 2 MB video ram, 1.2 gb hard drives and a
    double speed CD-ROM. What we got from MicroAge was 12 boxes with the
    590's in them, 12 boxes with the system ram in them, 12 boxes with the
    video ram in them, 12 boxes with the hard drives in them and 12 boxes
    with the CD-ROMS in them. 
    
    Oh, BTW, the extra system ram that they sent was NOT the correct part.
    The systems came with 8 MB, consisting of two 4 MB simms. We needed two
    more 4 MB simms per unit, they sent one 8 MB one. So we played mix and
    match with the systems and built half of them with four 4 MB simms and
    the others with two 8 MB simms to get to the 16 MB total that the
    customer wanted. :-(
    
    We had to wait several weeks for these to come in, then when they
    finally arrived, they had version 1.02 system BIOS. Engineering told me
    that manufacturing hadn't shipped that version in about 6 months and
    that 2.0 was the current version (It's actually even bumped up again in
    the few weeks since). It's pretty obvious that these systems had been
    sitting in a warehouse somewhere for a very long time. If they were in
    the warehouse, why did it take so long for them to arrive onsite?
    
    I hope we don't end up being forced to use another vendors systems to
    meet the customers aggressive schedule. We already lost the laptop
    space on this project with the early HiNote Ultra PCMCIA fiasco. They
    didn't meet the customers specs, so the customer went with IBM
    ThinkPads (which have turned out to have problems of their own) and the
    Dell Lattitude series. We're working on getting the HiNote Ultra back
    on their approved list. Several of the head honchos were impressed with
    mine in a meeting on last Thursday. ;-)
    
    Ahhhh, life on the bleeding edge...
    
    Harry
    

    
    	Boy, ain't *that* (-1) the truth.
    
    	When is this place going to wake up and realize that there are
    times, and places, when selling PCs direct IS good business. But with
    the current PCBU leadership seemly dead-bent on forcing the marketplace
    to buy *our* way, it is no wonder they are stalled out.
    
    
    		the Greyhawk

    Ah, but that would be a "channels conflict"!  This, I am told by
    a manager in PCBU marketing, is why the "Digital PC" web page doesn't
    list configurations or part numbers (let alone prices, heaven forbid!)
    
    					Steve

    
    	And I always thought a little conflict in life added flavor, focus,
    and contact resolution skills to the mix...
    
    
    	Must of TFSO'd that group too.
    
    
    		the Greyhawk

    Re: .69
    That's terrible news.  In my purchasing days, they (we) would have been
    targeted as one of my first suppliers to improve or go.  Businesses
    can't afford to operate that way.
    Sue
    

    Re: .72
    Harry,
    
    I too am supporting a Customer who is purchasing our PC's.  It's a two
    year agreement for $7M for Venturis, Celebris and HiNote
    congirurations.  We were unable to fulfil the initial order and turned
    to MicroAge because they had what the Customer needed.  They continued
    to supply on our behalf until a few months ago and did a very good job. 
    A couple of months ago, we moved to the other side of the MicroAge
    house (the side that fills directly to Customers).  We convinced our
    Customer to place their order directly with MicroAge June 19.  MicroAge
    has not met their 6 day committment since that time.  This Customer
    needs configuration on the Venturis and Celebris machines.  They
    purchase CPU, memory, drive, 3-COM card and monitor.  If these aren't
    stocked, the message to our Customer is Digital has a memory shortage
    or Digital is late on deliveries...  The HiNote is easy as it's a pass
    thru item.  MicroAge gets it from us and ships it to our Customer. 
    Even with the early PCMCIA problem, our Customer is pleased (except
    with the DOA's).
    
    Digital does still support a few (10?) large Customers directly.  But they
    are listed by name and using our partners is supposed to be the most
    economical way to sell our PC's.  This is fine and I support our
    decision to do business this way if it works.  After adding all the
    administrative costs on top of the deep discounts for these large
    deals, they can quickly become unprofitable.  On the other hand, if our
    partner does not support Digital, they can easily loose the business
    for us.  We don't need any help in that area.
    
    MicroAge suggested a competitor's memory as being less expensive.  They
    are also very quick to point out that Digital has not shipped, but do
    not add that to make their 6 day committment, they must stock as it
    takes 2-4 days in configuration at MicroAge and 2 days to ship via 2nd
    day air.  This is not a partnership.
    
    Call me offline if you need assistance.  I've been living this day and
    night since February 9.
    Sue
    

    
    Still no real news on my Starion 940i. I did get to see
    it at Lechmere's but did have the heart or the time to
    ask a saleperson to pump in the PASSWORD and see what is
    new. Like Win 95 and so on.....
    
    I was told that PC Compleat thinks they will get system
    end of this week (9/4-9/9) and will start filling back
    orders first. Of course ! Now, my question is... They
    have my check , cashed and I have nothing to show but
    promises of being on a "unknown-how-long" waiting list.
    Will I get a push up the ol' list because I paid ? I
    doubt it.
    
    Well... guess I'll go back to Lechmere's and test drive
    their 940i. If I do not like it I may cancel the order,
    take the money (I better get back) and see if I can find
    one of those new HP's or NEC's. Might even go back to Gateway.
    
    Oh well.... Clock is ticking... we will see.
    
    Rick A 

    I called in for their catalog and never received it.  Funny thing is that
    after I gave my address I handed my brother the phone so he could
    request a catalog.  He received his catalog less than a week after that
    phone call.

 Worldwide News                                              LIVE WIRE
 
 U.S. retailer Circuit City to carry ...                     Date: 05-Sep-1995
 
           U.S. retailer Circuit City to carry Digital's Starion line

         Digital announced today that Circuit City, America's largest
   retailer of brand-name consumer electronics, will carry Digital's
   Starion line of retail PCs.  Richmond, Va.-based Circuit City is the
   fourth U.S. national retail chain to carry Digital's PC line.

         "Circuit City, a national consumer electronics giant in the U.S.,
   is known for exceptional customer satisfaction," said Enrico Pesatori,
   vice president and general manager of Digital's Computer Systems
   Division.  "With more than 300 convenient locations nationwide and a
   strong advertising campaign, they are an excellent match for us as we
   selectively expand our product distribution in the important retail
   segment."

         Circuit City will sell the new Pentium PC line Digital announced
   two weeks ago as part of its expanded push into the consumer market.
   The new systems optimize Microsoft's new Windows 95 operating system
   and are the first consumer PCs to offer home theater-quality JBL
   speakers.  Specific models and store availability will be announced at
   a later date.

Re: .78

No, you don't get any priority because you paid by check.  Let this be a
warning to others - pay by credit card if you possibly can!

					Steve

    Re: .-1
    
    What happens differently if you pay by credit card?  Do they not charge
    your account until the system ships?
    
    Larry
    

    
    
    Thanks .81, I would have but I am trying to get away from
    the credit card trap.
    
    I called again today. Seems I am number 21 in the queue.
    Whatever that means. I did, however, upgrade the monitor
    to a new Magnavox CM-4018 17-inch for another $50. At least 
    it has a confirmed date of 9/22.
    
    Funny, I did not see or hear a thing when I was Circuit City
    last weekend.
    
    Rick A
    

Re: .82

Right - your card does not get charged until the system actually ships.

Re: .83

I wouldn't expect to see anything at Circuit City until the systems are
there.

				Steve

    Not necessarily true -- some merchants charge the card immediately,
    some don't, but there is some sort of protection (I don't
    recall the details, perhaps it is only for mail orders) such that
    if the merchandise doesn't arrive or something, the charges will be
    reversed by the credit card company.  AmEx really goes to bat for
    its customers, in my experience, while Master Card does not.
                         

Some credit card companies double the warranty of things purchased on the
card; I've never tried using this feature, so I don't know how well it works
(or if it's still practiced, for that matter), but it's another thing to take
into consideration.

I was not making a general statement, but rather for purchases through
PCs Compleat.  Most reputable merchants, though, don't charge your card
until the item ships.

As for credit card warranties - read the fine print.  I've seen some exclude
computers.

					Steve

    Picked up my Starion today!! They're in........
    

    I've had two ink jet cartridges for a DECmultijet 1000 backordered
    at PC's Compleat since July 15th and they have not billed my credit
    card.  I'm restin easy!!
    
    Rick

    RE: .88
    
    Which Starion is it ?
    Mine is a 940i and I was told still maybe sorta next week (?).
    But, I was knocked up to 16 from 21 in queue. Salesperson said
    could be of some cancellations ?
    
    Rick A

    My Starion 910 is in, but order is being held for the monitor (15"),
    which is hopefully going to be in today or next week.

    Anyone have a clue as to what the lead time is for a Starion 930
    (100mhz, 16MB, blah, blah, blah) via PC's Compleat??
    
    

Hello, PCs Compleat? What's you're lead time for a Starion 930?

					Trace

As a matter of fact, I spoke with them last night. They have about 12 940s in
stock, 930s are backorder (most popular order) and figure 3-4 weeks. Monitors
also are backordered. They also have 920s in stock.

cheers,

joan

    
    
    	"I don't know."  That seems to be the popular phrase at PC compleat.
    If it weren't for this notesfile and the discount, I would never have
    ordered a PC there.
    
    ME - Does the trinitron Monitor work with a Starion?  
    PC COMPLEAT - "I don't know"
    ME -  Can you find out?
    PC COMPLEAT - "Um, I'll send you the monitor and you can try it?
    ME - Do I need a special cable?
    PC COMPLEAT - "I don't know"
    ME - Can I pick up my order and save on shipping?
    PC COMPLEAT - "I don't know"
    ME -  Can you find out?
    PC COMPLEAT - "oh yeah, you can"
    ME - How will I know it's in?
    PC COMPLEAT - "I don't know"
    ME -  Can you find out?
    PC COMPLEAT - "um, um, um, you could call everyday, hm , I don't know"
    
    I talked to three different people.  Only one who was halfway
    competent.  (Carol Frost).  It's amazing if they are actually able to 
    sell to real customers.

    
    ref:  -1   don't you consider yourself a real customer.
    
    bc
    

    
    
    In all fairness.....
    
    There where a few individuals that I talked to at
    PC Compleat that either knew the answers to my questions
    or found out or got back to me.
    
    The few "I don't know" I got where in normal conversation.
    Not as a dead-end like a few notes back.
    
    Now..... my salesperson at Gateway.... we should have a few
    dozen. This guy is great. I leave a message, 10 minutes to
    maybe a few hours later, boom, an answer. If he does not know,
    he does not BS, he says he does not and gets the answer. Has
    a speaking voice that is very pleasant yet still business-like.
    Seems to be a straight-shooter. That real helps with a sale
    that maybe a bit on the edge of "ok I take one" or "I'll get
    back to you".
    
    rick a

>>    ME - Does the trinitron Monitor work with a Starion?  
>>    PC COMPLEAT - "I don't know"
>>    ME -  Can you find out?
>>    PC COMPLEAT - "Um, I'll send you the monitor and you can try it?

My response:
     ME: <click>
     PC COMPLEAT - <dial-tone>

    I'd rather hear "I don't know" as opposed to something like ...
    
    ME: So, will my system work with your monitor?
    SG (sales guy/gal):  Uh ...  suuure ...  yeah, that's the ticket!
    ME: And, will I be able to return it without a stocking fee?
    SG: Well, er ....  nooo, there's no stocking fee ...  
        Yessiree, not to worry!  No stocking fee ...
    ME: Say, aren't you the guy/gal that sold me a set of SCSI cables
        that you said I needed with my IDE drive?
    SG: No, no, no!  I was out that day.  Yeah, and my evil twin
        brother/sister from ...  Detroit! ...  covered for me.  Yeah ...
    
    Steve

    thank you, john lithgow..........
    

    re: .95
    
    Yes, I got the same run-around with the Starion/Trinitron thing.  They
    were clueless.  Every time you call you get a different person, which
    can work in your favor.  Eventually I found someone who was able to
    verify that yes, the Starion/Trinitron combination works.  I'm now
    running the 930 w/the Digital VRT17 trinitron.  Works great.
    
    	Steve

    Finally got my 100mhz pentium, no keyboard nor mouse. Called them and
    they shipped out. What about someone that doesn't work at Digital 
    though; they shouldn't be expected to understand.... Of course, we have
    been conditioned to understand....
    

    I've had a pretty miserable time with them too.  And, if you tell them
    you're with Digital and just trying to get information for yourself or
    customer, they have even less interest in you and treatment get worse.
    
    If you work for a non-[PC]SBU group in Digital and have a customer who
    looks to you for information on a Digital PC, who are we suppose to go
    to to do the customer satisfaction favors for our customers?
    
    This is lose-lose for the customer and us.  The customer can't get good
    information from PC-Complete, or from us anymore.  I suppose we could
    find the PM, but what an efficient way that is to get good
    information.
    
    --Steve

    It really must depend on who you get on the phone. When I called for
    quotes, I was treated quite well and the person on the phone (Jim
    something or other) willingly answered all my questions. 
    
    Maybe the reality is that PC Complete has some good people and some bad
    people answering the phone?
    
    Of course, my opinion may change is I end up ordering from them...
    
    joan
    

    
    	This is called "no training for salesreps to save money", folks.
    
    	It is a short-sighted policy which will always result in loss of
    marketshare, and eventually it becomes a going-out-of-business
    strategy.
    
    	I personally wouldn't buy from PC Complete ever. Want to have a
    real cry, call Dell...
    
    
    		the Greyhawk

    Someone sent me the following phone numbers which may be of interest:
    
    starion presales support 800-216-8115
       "   postsales support 800-554-3333
    
    					Steve

    ARe these not the same former Digital Employees that changed companies 
    and are doing the same jobs ? 

    I was a little dissapointed when I received the Digital PC catalog from
    PCs Compleat the other day... no 133 MHz Pentiums to be found.
    
    Much of our competition has been advertising and shipping them for a
    while now.  Why does it take us so long to bring such a change to
    market?
    
    We're supposed to be the company with the cutting edge technology,
    right?
    
    -Steve

    Well, actually there was the 133mhz Starion machines, the new
    Celebris-GL in both lp and st case configuration, and I thought a
    Celebris-XL - though that may have been part of a recent announcement
    with the Venturis XL and not yet featured in the catalog.
    
    Can't say that I like the new catalog much - used the same format as
    the 'all-line' PC Complete catalog which means it was very sparse on
    information.  Combine that with the information averse reps mentioned
    earlier in this note and well......
    
    One interesting note is that on the pages of the Hinote and Ultra, they
    list Kingston memory which looks to be almost half the price of the
    standard Digital "fr-xxxxxx-xx" memory which is listed in the back. 
    Which one would you buy.....
    
    
    Rich

.101>  verify that yes, the Starion/Trinitron combination works.  I'm now
.101>  running the 930 w/the Digital VRT17 trinitron.  Works great.
    
    WOW! Where'd you get the special cables?

>     <<< Note 4084.100 by SCAS01::SODERSTROM "Bring on the Competition" >>>
>
>    thank you, john lithgow..........

Lovitz (Lovis?), not Lithgow....

    re .106
    
    I know this has nothing to do with PC compleat, but if you would like
    to experiance the phone tree from H*LL call 800-554-3333.  I went all
    the way through the tree looking for help on installing an IDE drive. 
    I must have gone 5 or 6 levels deep only to find out there automated
    system could not answer my question.
    
    We must really want to kill our PC sales and piss off customers!

    
    re: 112,
    
    Check out Scott Adams' Dilbert of 9/20.
    
    He must have dialed into the phone tree from H*ll.
    PTFH ?
    
    jc

    Someone a few notes back recommended I call PCs COMPLEAT and ask
    for lead times on the 100mhz Starion.  Ever see Waynes World?
    
    I think the response should be "Shaa!"  Check out the previous replies
    re: "I dunno" responses.  
    
    Me:  "Well, whats the hold up?  Lechmere etc, have them out"  
    PCC: "Well, DEC, err, ah, Digital can't make Win95 work on the new models"
    (and I quote)
    
    But alas, I've ordered one anyway - another sale for DEC eh?
    

    I dunno.........Windows95 works fine on the Starion I bought from PC's
    Compleat.

What I was told by PC Compleat:

They have several orders in place with Digital....75, 50, 80, 500. They expected
to get the order for 75 this week. When I called on Sunday, I was about 279 in
the queue of backordered machines. They said to check every week.

I get the feeling that they can't give us lead times because Digital doesn't
tell them when they'll get their orders filled.

joan

    I asked to have a catalog sent to my home address as  I was in the
    market to purchase a color printer and since I've been here 22yrs, I
    would spend my few dollars for a DEC product.  After 6 weeks and no
    catalog, I bought a HP over at Computer City. Oh well..
    

    I would suggest sending mail to Glen Kelley (PCBUOA::GKELLEY), Starion
    product manager, if you get ridiculous and damaging responses such
    as quoted in .114 from the PCs Compleat people.
    
    				Steve

    Interestingly enough, VTX SWLOAN says "Call 1-800-DIGITAL, opt 2, opt
    9, for assistance".  That connects you directly with PC Compleat.

    
    	Maybe we can all get Windows 95 afterall. :-)
    
    
    		the Greyhawk

    I plan on buying a system over the next month and the Starion would
    suit me just fine.  I have asked for a catalog and/or descriptions from PC
    Compleat twice in the past 6 weeks, and still have not recieved it. 
    When on the phone with Gateway last week I had a FAX from them listing
    4 different systems with complete details and options before I was off
    the phone with the gentleman at Gateway,  Talk about service response
    to a potential sale.  
    	Now that the need for a system is rapidily approaching and I am a 14 
    year vet, stockholder, and believer here at Digital I ask,  What should I
    do?  Please dont tell me to go to Lechmeres to look at them I don't
    want too, I feel quite comfortable ordering my system in the same manner
    I order take out chinese food,  But I need the menu.  
    
    
    Les

    I had trouble too (and I not only work for DEC, but the PCBU)
    Then I called them up and told them I worked for NEC.  Catalog
    now comes regularly.  Roto Rooter is another company name that
    I've had good luck with.  k
    

    check out giadev::decstation note string 6164 has lot'sa info on the
    product. as well one can get more info on the WWW pc server:
    
          http://www.pc.digital.com
    
           http://www.pc.digital.com/products/retail.htm
    
    
    At the PCompleate EPP prices for these systems, there is no excuse not
    to buy digital.
    
    With a backorder queue approaching 400, and they have 700 on order, I
    assume they are not all that pressed for new orders...maybe that
    explains why they aren't as eager as the Gateway folks.
    
    
    
    Pete
    
    :^) - #168 in the queue and counting for my shiny new 930!
    
    
    
                                                          
    
    

    check into GIADEV::DECSTATION notes 6164.* for more configuration info
    and prices.
    
    next time you call, tell them you want a "QUOTE".  Once they open up a
    quote on the system, they'll work with you, hoping to make a sale. 
    I've had no problem getting faxes of the quotes within an hour from
    them.  I bought a Straion 930 from Christine at PC Compleat and it was
    a good experience throughout.  Since it's arrival, Ive gotten quotes
    and info about printers and other equipment as well as two differnet
    catalogs (1-flyer type, 1 larger).
    
    give them another try (ask for Christine)
    
    good luck

Just to add some balance to the discussion,

I called PC Complete last week and received my catalog in 5 days.

I called twice to get quotes on different configurations and spoke
to helpful, knowledgeable people each time.

I ordered my system on Tuesday (940)... now the real test...

						Mark

    Just got off the phone with PCsCompleat..
    
    I'm #152 out of 755 in the queue for my 930, which was originally
    supposed to ship by 9/15 ...
    
    sigh..
    
    

    >                      Roto Rooter is another company name that
    >I've had good luck with.  k
    
    I wonder if that would work to get literature from Cisco or
    Wellfleet...

    I requested a catalog and got it a few days later, picked out the Starion 920,
    ordered it (with the EPP, I got what I consider to be a great deal) and it
    showed up 7 days later.

    And no, PCs Compleat is not paying me off to enter this :^) ...



    A satisfied customer,


    Bob 

    
    
    After reading about all these problems, bottom line price is still
    what counts for me. So where are the best deals for a Starion
    
    		- PC Compleat ?
    		- COMPUSA ?
    		- Sam's Club ?
    		- Circuit City ?
    		- others ?
    
    Konrad
    
    
    
    
    
    

    re: .130
    
    For Digital Employees, PCs Compleat is the cheapest way to get a
    Starion (via the EPP discount), according to everyone who has checked
    on this.  You may have to wait longer to get the machine through PCs
    Compleat, however.  Apparently there is a fairly long wait list right
    now for some of the Starion models.
    
    	Steve

    
    Found Digital Starions and some printers in a catalog called
    "J&R" Music World
          Computer World
    
    Prices seemed the same as all others but the descriptions
    of what comes with what system seems to be, well, off.
    
    Does anyone check these guys out before they advertise ?

    If I by a P.C. at the WIZ, would I get a 20% discount like EPP?

Re: .133

No.  The only retail store offering Digital employee discounts is CompUSA,
and their discount on Starion systems is not as good as the EPP program
through PCs Compleat.

				Steve

I understand that PCcompleat gives the EPP discounts *only* on items with 
Digital part numbers.  COMPUSA gives a smaller discount, but applies to 
everything in the store.

So, buy your Digital Starion systems from PCcompleat, but COMPUSA has the 
best prices for non-Digital items, such as a Sony Monitor, tape backup and 
HP laserjet.

						-Paul

PCs Compleat also discounts non-Digital software, but CompUSA may be a better
deal for this.

				Steve

    is the Nashua NH, tax-free COMPUSA open yet?
    
    Mark

  Not quite.  But by the end of October.

                                   Atlant

.127>  I'm #152 out of 755 in the queue for my 930, which was originally
.127>  supposed to ship by 9/15 ...
    
    Should I be glad there is such a backlog for our systems, or bothered
    that we can't ship 'em fast enough? (And how many PCs/day can we ship?)
    
      John

    That's part of my concern.. 
    
    over in ::DECSTATION word came from Glen Kelley that there is 'a supply
    problem that will be corrected by mid-october' .. but it very well may
    be that, this weekend, I take out my charge card and just go out
    something.. and cancel my order.
    
    As far as I can tell from my queue status as reported by PCsCompleat,
    they haven't gotten a shipment in a while. This is pretty broken.
    
    The cards are on the table; you blow your first month's shipments and
    you can count on someone else sliding in and taking most of your
    orders.
    
    ...tom

    Yep - My bro-in-law got word from PCS Compleat that his PC will be
    ready for him at Thanksgiving...  The poor kid is a masters student 
    and will be nearly done with his thesis before he takes delivery of
    his computer...  I'm ashamed.
    
    :-(

    ...and Microsoft shipped something like two *million* copies of 
    Windows 95 the first week, while we still can't handle demands
    for our products that are multiples of a hundred....

    RE: .142 and Microsoft shipping two *million* copies in a week
    
    An interesting note, since one of the big reasons for at least the
    initial shortage of the new Starions is the Microsoft was 3 weeks
    late in shipping Digital the OEM kit necessary to install Windows 95
    on our PCs (not just late to us, but late to all PC manufacturers).
    
    They also slipped the delivery date of Windows '95 a number of
    times.  
    
    Nice recovery, though...
    
    

    CompUSA is having an open house on October 21 and the store will
    be open for business on October 28.  According to one of the new
    employees their lowest prices (sale) available to the public will be on
    opening weekend.  Employees started their orientations with the company
    this week.
    
    
    

    So, where is the CompUSA store?  Town/State?
    
    Thanks,

    The store mentioned in .144 is in Nashua, NH. 
    
    (Spit Brook Road and Daniel Webster Highway, in the Royal Ridge Mall,
    on the opposite corner of a Computer City that already exists there.)

    Actually an easy lunchtime walking distance from ZKO...

    
    
    Checked on the Starion 930:
    
    	PC Compleat		$2023   (delivery probably in November??)
    
    	COMPUSA (Florida)	$2079	(special order, was told this 
    					 normally takes about two weeks)
    
    Don't know if the guy at Compusa had any idea about the supply
    difficulties, probably just quoted me regular special order
    timeframe.
    
    KW
    
     

    re: Actually an easy lunchtime walking distance from ZKO
    
    I happen to know that the 21st is a Saturday (my birthday). So, who
    works on lunchtime on a Saturday ????
    
    Alan
    

    well, I've had it. I just cancelled my order for my 930. It looks like
    HP, Compaq, and Acer are ready to take my money, so unless CompUSA
    hands me a good deal on an in-stock Starion when I wave my credit card
    in their faces this weekend, someone other than Digital gets the sale..
    
    I tried; I really did. I can't buy a non-existent computer.
    
    ...tom

Just hit my first bump in the PCs Compleat road.

I called for a status on my order from last week.  The person who answered was
VERY curt.  Even though he answered the line as the "Digital" line, and then
knew from my order that I was a Digital employee, he tried to get me to cancel
the Starion order and substitute an IBM system.

He then launched into a tirade about how awful the supply problems were from
Digital.  I hope someone is trying to fix this quickly.  This is press we
don't need.

I wonder if the PC Compleat view we see here has anything to do with their
status as the "employee purchase program".  Maybe Lechmere and others are
getting priority ships in the interest of getting systems to "real customers"
first?  It would not be the first time this was done.

						Mark

    Is all this really being fed back to the DEC people responsible, or
    are we just talking to ourselves?           
    

    A side issue, but serious enough to mention:
    
    I had to call Digital (800-554-3333) for a service call on my Starion
    I just purchased. The problem is a bad CDROM.  I was put on hold for 
    56 minutes until a person came on. What customer would hold on for this
    amount of time??

I am seeing a lot of customer complaints in CompuServe forums about long
hold times for Starion service.

					Steve

    I just called them today looking for an upgrade kit for one of our
    Customers.  I waited about a minute and spoke with Ted who was very
    nice and polite.  They did not have the item in stock and we show it as
    obsolete (maintenance only).  Ted advised that I have our Customer call
    and place it on order.  Then they will order from us and advise the
    Customer of 4-6 week lead time.  I have a question, but no answer yet: 
    If we show it as obsolete, how will we supply it to them???????  I fear
    we'll be asking for Customer Satisfaction issues big time.  I'll be on
    vacation for the next week, but when I return, I'd love to check this
    out.  In the mean time, I think I've found the item at another
    distributor.
    
    Does anyone know if we show items as no longer available because they
    cannot be sold to our Customers direct and they are still available to
    PCs Compleat and to our partners?  I really must check this out.
    
    Sue

    
    	Regarding the long wait times at the Starion helpline.
    	I've had the unfortunate experience of calling it twice.
    	Once I was on hold for and hour and 15 minutes. The second
    	time for 50 minutes.
    
    	Even sadder is the annoucemnet that they keep playing
    	something to the effect of :
    
    	"Due to the overwhelming success of the new Starion line
    	of PCs we are currently experiencing long hold times."
    
    	If its taking the technical support people that long to
    	respond and the problems are that difficult to solve,
    	this new line of PCs is definitly not a success.
    
    	Ken
    

    
    Well. I never got a real long wait but did hear a
    few complaints from various reps at PC Compleat.
    
    Other manufacturers are experiencing various delays
    due to shortages on critical parts (CD-ROMs, Keyboards
    RAM etc). I just got my second, well maybe second, delay
    from Gateway on an 10th anniversary system. Called Micron
    and they are saying two weeks from date ordered.
    
    Rick A

    Is a VT320-CA compatable with the Starion? I have the chance to pick up
    the Starion for $1500.00 but I don`t want to spend the other $400.00 on
    the terminal...especially if the 320 will work.
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    No, I`m not concerned about a colour monitor at this time.

    Re .158 No, a VT 320 (or any other VT) will not work with the video
    output of a Starion (or any other PC that I'm aware of). You're just
    gonna have to spend the extra bucks for a decent monitor. If you plan
    to use the system alot, I'd suggest spending even a few hundred more
    dollars for at least a 17 inch monitor. It's much easier on the eyes!
    
    Harry
    

    I have a few questions around the CompUSA store, since it was brought
    up that a new store is opening in N.H.. According to the VTX EPP Plan, 
    PC Complete AND CompUSA both give the EPP discount to Digital Employees.
    
    Does anyone know if the CompUSA store carries the entire Starion Line
    or just some like Lechmere, etc...? 
    
    Are the prices the same as PC Complete??? 
    
    I'm looking for a 930 with a 17 inch trinitron, will the CompUSA store 
    do this??
    
    Someone mentioned CompUSA's opening week-end biggest sale at earlier. Is 
    it during the Open House on the 21st or the Week-end of the 28th???
    
    I'm just trying to figure out if I can save some sales tax/freight by
    going to NH myself to get it, or order it.
    
    I know there are phone numbers in here, I just thought I ask first
    since there seems to be a lot of buyers in here.
    
    Thanks in advance for any help,
    
    Ted
       

Ted

>   I have a few questions around the CompUSA store, since it was brought
>   up that a new store is opening in N.H.. According to the VTX EPP Plan, 
>   PC Complete AND CompUSA both give the EPP discount to Digital Employees.

Regardess of what VTX says, you only get an Employee Discount at CompUSA, not 
the Employee Purchase Plan discount that you get through PC Compleat. The 
CompUSA discount is 12% over their cost on most products they carry. 

My guess is that PC Compleat will be cheaper on the Starion. The best deals 
at CompUSA are generally on cable.

regards,
tim m.

    COMPUSA will special order the 930, but it's not regularly stocked. 
    940s are backordered about a month.  List prices are similar to PCs
    Compleat, but the discount is somewhat less.  COMPUSA discount to
    Digital employees is not limited to Digital gear.  You take your
    merchandise over to the 'corporate desk', show 'em your badge,...
    
    Mark

    Re. last 2.
    
    Thanks for the tips, I just looked in GIADEV::DECSTATION and got some
    info also.
    
    Would still like to know which is the correct date for the CompUSA 
    opening sale though.
    
    Ted 

    re: ridiculous lead times
    
    One of the things that keeps me from buying a Starion (or any other PC
    from Digital) is the idea that it will be obsolete before it ever gets
    delivered. I actually went through this with Dell a couple of years
    ago, when I ordered a popular system. It was backordered for one month,
    then two, then when I called one day for status, I was told that the
    system was now obsolote, and wouldn't be shipped at all, and would I be
    interested in the new model (also on backorder). I told them to forget
    my order, and my business.
    
    Somebody has to explain to me how you can expect an increase in revenue
    (and presumably profit) when you cannot provide your product in volume.
    Charge more money? Charge the customer, then not ship a product?? How?
    
    Geoff

    re: .164
    
    >Somebody has to explain to me how you can expect an increase in revenue
    >(and presumably profit) when you cannot provide your product in volume.
    >Charge more money? Charge the customer, then not ship a product?? How?
    
    Hmm ...  Impressing Wall Street with an impressive book to bill ratio?
    
    Steve

  After reading the replies here and in DECSTATION regarding the 17" Monitors,
there seems to be some discrepancies in the Part/Model numbers people are 
talking about.

  Here's what I found out through the PC COMPLEAT catalog and calling them;


Monitor                   MAX. RES.      DOT P.  Model #      LIST      EPP
   
17" Digital               1280x1024 ni  .28m   FR-PCXBV-LA  $ 749.99  $ 636.95
17" Digital Trinitron     1280x1024 ni  .26m   FR-PCXAV-EC  $1099.00  $1063.20

17" Sony                  1280x1024 ni  .25m   Multisc 17sf $ 859.99  $ None
17" Sony Trinitron        1600x1200 ni  .25m   Multisc 17se $1069.99  $ None


There has been references in the the notes that the Digital Trinitron is the
Sony 17se. From what I can see it's not.

Instead of the Digital Trinitron, for $6.79 more you can get the Sony 17se.
But I'm assuming you loose the new 3 year warranty and get whatever the Sony
one is.

Has anyone here bought the 17" Sony Trinitron and hooked it up to the Starion? 
Has anyone compared it with the Digital Trinitron! I would think the Resolution
and Dot Pitch (maybe not so much the Dot Pitch) would make a big difference.

Ted

The PCXAV-EC is indeed the Sony Multiscan 17se.  I can't explain PC Compleat's
specs for it.

May I suggest that technical questions about Starion be taken to 
GIADEV::DECSTATION?

					Steve

    Will do,
    
    
    Thanks...
    
    Ted

You might want to check COMPUSA for a discount price on the Sony Monitor.  
They offer a discount on *all* items in the store, although not as much as 
PCcompleat on Digital items.

    RE. -.1
    
    I'll check out the grand opening, when ever that is?
    
    Ted
    
    

	Oct 28th I think.

I called PCs Compleat this morning to inquire on the status of my Starion 930
order.  Talked to a very pleasant, knowledgeable man who informed me that 
the systems had been coming in.  Mine was scheduled in the next 15 ships.
Sounds like there has been a loosening of the shipment log jam.

One question I forgot to ask him.  How do you find out when your system 
is/has shipped?  Do they call you to let you know it is on the way?  Or do
you just wait until UPS calls to arrange delivery (which hopefully they will
do rather than just leaving it on the doorstop)

							Mark

The best way is to call the vendor (PCs Compleat in this case) every day asking
if it has shipped yet, and when it does, ask for the UPS tracking number.  You
can then call UPS (800-PICK-UPS) and ask them when delivery is expected.

UPS won't call you - they MAY leave you a note saying they'll try again
tomorrow or they'll leave it with a neighbor (or perhaps on your front
steps, depending on the driver's mood.)  This is perhaps one of the most
aggravating issues regarding "mail-order" PC purchases.

				Steve

    >> then call UPS (800-PICK-UPS) and ask them when delivery is expected.
    
    Or, use http:///www.ups.com/tracking/tracking.html
    and you can track it yourself
    
    colin

Actually,  PCsCompleat did call.  They called shortly after I posted
the original note to let me know it was shipping via UPS.  UPS came
the next day and left a note that they tried to deliver.  We'll be 
picking it up today.

					Mark

    Just a note on the CompUSA opening over the week-end in Nashua. The
    place was packed, and it was nice for a change to go into a store
    where all the systems were set up and running. As someone said earlier
    the Digital discount is 12% over their cost. Probably not the best of
    deals on Digital equipment but not too bad for other things. The Sony
    17" Trinitron SE is going for $994. with the Discount. Comparing the
    the price difference with PC-Complete and no tax, you'll save about 
    128 bucks. They are also having a special till Nov 4th, where if you
    open a charge account, there are no Payments, no Interest for 6 months.
    No minimum purchase.
    
    I am in no way connected to COMPUSA, just passing on information I 
    received. If your looking around for something it wouldn't hurt to 
    check them out.
    
    Ted

  CompUSA also announced that this was their most succesful
  "soft opening" to date. That is, in the week or so that
  they've been open prior to the official "Grand Opening",
  they've had a very good week.

  I was there several times myself. In general, I don't
  find their pricing attractive, nor is their Mac selection
  very big, but that 12%-over-cost deal is sometimes *VERY*
  useful. A SCSI cable that was priced at $49.99 cost me
  $16.something. The LaserLine 90-CD cabinet, priced at
  $14.99, cost me about half of that, and a 3-pack of
  Zip disks, priced at $49.99, cost me $40.49.

                                   Atlant

    RE: CompUSA opening
    
    Store's got my affection after a "problem occurred".  Here's the
    condensed version:
    
    Was among the crowds at Saturday's event.  Talked to a salesperson
    about a Multimedia upgrade to my existing home PC & what's involved in
    installing it.  After assurances that it was a 20 minute effort, I
    bought the large kit, which I recieved about a $48.00 Digital discount. 
    Went home & started to "install" it only to hit snags.  Decided to
    resume Sunday - still problems.  Called Creative's hotline & was
    on-hold approx. 30 minutes to recieve a polite, but curt advisory to
    try a couple of other things - that didn't work.  Packed the stuff up
    Sunday and returned it for a refund.  After that, talked to the ranking
    person in the bldg at the time (both of us being very polite).  Asked
    him to refer my feelings to the store mgr on Monday.
    
    Monday, I got a page and it was Cal Overhulser, the Technical Services
    Mgr, who requested that I bring in the PC and they would install the
    kit components.  Brought it in Mon PM & they had it ready for me
    yesterday at lunch.  Did I mention that CompUSA didn't charge anything 
    extra for the install??  Cal's an ex-DECie (who I didn't know before 
    this week).
    
    Class move!  BTW, the "flat rate" for this effort is $69.99 (hourly
    rate), which Cal said is a customary time for this job.  In my case, it
    took them longer.
    
    Good news deserves to be shared.
      

PC Compleat (sp?) customer service is still very lacking.

I had to call at least 3 times to get a question answered:

1.	The consultant asked me if my question was in regards
	to a PC at home or work. When I told him it was for
	work and that I was a Digital employee, he refused
	to answer my question and told me that I should instead
	send mail to IEGHELP@LJO (an MTS address?) and that he
	couldn't (or wouldn't) help me.

2.	When I called a second time, I was told that the
	PC was obsolete and that I'd need to speak to someone in
	DEC Direct. When I spoke to someone at DEC Direct,
	they told me to call PC Compleat.

3.	Finally, the helpful DEC Direct person called PC Compleat on
	my behalf and put me in touch with someone
	at PC Compleat who could answer my question and tell me
	the part number of a memory upgrade for my PC.

Then, I wanted to see if that memory upgrade would work/fit into
a different type of PC; so, I called a fourth time:

4.	The person I spoke to this time said my colleague's PC
	was also obsolete (no longer "active") so I'd need to
	speak to a partner.

5.	When I spoke to this partner, who was very helpful,
	he told me that he wouldn't be able to answer my technical
	questions and could I please speak to someone at PC Compleat.
	When I told him that that was where I came from,
	he tried to call them on my behalf. He said that they
	were lazy and had referred lots of people to him whom
	he couldn't help.

Bottom line - their service stinks. I wouldn't buy a PC from
them even if it was the best product or a good deal; nor would
I recommend them to anyone.

Chuck

>1.	The consultant asked me if my question was in regards
>	to a PC at home or work. When I told him it was for
>	work and that I was a Digital employee, he refused
>	to answer my question and told me that I should instead
>	send mail to IEGHELP@LJO (an MTS address?) and that he
>	couldn't (or wouldn't) help me.

    waittaminit. if it's a "Work" PC, then PCscompleat has NOTHING to do
    with it. Didn't sell it, can't sell you stuff for it, and can't sell you
    a replacement. Why should they answer questions about it?
    
    Somebody has to cover the paycheck of the person on the other end of
    the phone..
    
    ...tom

    I am not sticking up for anyone here. But I will take a shot.
    
    A fourteen billion dollar company needs to clean up it's act when
    dealing with employee puchases of commodity items. There seems to be
    a grey area with "work" related or "home" related purchases.
    
    There should be *no* difference, or "service" bouncing when dealing
    with employees who purchase digital equipment.
    
    That said, perhaps other channels can show a little more compassion
    when dealing with digital employees.
    
    It is a two way street, with an awfull amount of one way traffic.
    
    -Mike Z.

There should be no gray area.  If it's for a PC you bought with your own
money, it's personal and you can call PCs Compleat which is our retail
distributor.  If it's a PC owned by Digital, call IEG.  Digital doesn't
buy PC accessories from PCs Compleat - if you need configuration advice
for Digital-owned PCs, call IEG, that's their business.

					Steve

    If anybody was expecting a Starion 931 to be coming in to PC-Compleat
    Friday, it's been pushed out till Dec 8th. (when they'll change to a
    future date!)
    
    I'm amazed this company stays in business, ship dates don't mean SQUAT
    to this company anymore. Whatever it takes.......yea right!!!!
    
    I guess the internal peons here at DEC don't fit into that slogan! 
    
    Ted 

I've done some PCsCompleat bashing here so I figured I should add a good note
too.

I received a Starion 940 on October 18th.  So far, great!  No problems.
The only issue was the lack of a microphone in the original shipment.
One call and they shipped one out.

I found out about the Starion price drop (about $160 for 940 employee purchase)
Called PCsCompleat Friday the 17th to get my 30 day price guarantee.  The
paperwork said to call Sales.  Called Sales and after a 5 minute wait was
told I needed to talk to Customer Satisfaction.  Another 5 minutes and the
Customer Satisfaction person told me I needed to talk to Sales and transferred
me back before I could get a word in edgewise.  I needed to get to a meeting
so I hung up.

The next opportunity I had to call was Tuesday.  When the call started to 
follow the same path, I hung up.  I then wrote a letter and faxed it to
the customer satisfaction department.  I expected a problem as I was now
technically outside my 30 days from invoice window and had no evidence that
I had called on the 17th.

To my surprise, I got home on Wednesday to find a very nice message from
the Customer Satisfaction department on my answering machine.  They
had received my letter, credited my account, apologized for the problems
I had, and claimed that they had fixed the process problem in Sales.

Despite the round about way I got there, I am pleased that they backed up
their price guarantee with no hassle.  And the fact that they readily 
acknowledged the problem and fixed it.

							Mark

    
    Another success story:
    
    I was *very fortunate* to call PC's Compleat 3:00 on Friday, order a
    Model 930, and pick it up at 5:15 that same day!  The sales person said
    that this "doesn't normally happen".
    
    Our Starion 930 fired up out of the box, with only one small
    inconvenience:  SCI forgot to pack the stereo patch cord, the one from
    the audio out to the speaker.  We used headphones on Sunday evening for
    the interim.  Called the PC's Compleat Cust. Satisfaction line
    yesterday, and they had a cable waiting for me at 5:00 for me to pick
    up.   This really surprized me, because I thought I was going to go
    thru PC's Compleat, then Digital, etc., but one person at PC's Compleat
    made this item quite painless.  They even thanked me for picking it up! 
    
    The system is a blast so far--now if I can only pry my 6 yr. old away
    from it!
    
    Point of interest:  PC's Compleat is about 0.5 mile from the MRO site,
    and they don't seem to have any problems with letting you do "customer
    pickup".  
    
    Stick
    
    PS
    Service, on the other hand (hope we won't ever need it!), might be a
    different story...

I ordered a Starion 930 in mid-October. I'm still waiting for a PC!!!!!!

Digital stopped shipping 930s. No one told me until early Dec. In the mean
time others called PCs Compleat, ordered 932s and have already got them!
Someone also got a 930 (check an earlier reply). I changed my order to a 932.
The status of a shipment was unknown.

Out of frustration I sent mail to the Starion product manager who referred me
to the Starion Sales Group. They told me Digital isn't shipping 932s anymore
and I should inquire into a different model (931 or 933). So, I changed
my order to a 931 (which I'm not sure I really want because it is a 
half-duplex modem, and no answering machine). 

I won't see a PC for Xmas. I've got software for my kids and NO PC. If PCs
Compleat had kept on top of whats happening and informed me on time, I could
have changed my order  to a 932 earlier and be happier today!

Now I'm looking at Compaq. I really wanted to buy Digital, but...
  
-Jerry

    Does the 933 have ALL of the features of the 932?  It's not like the
    931 is it? (Half duplex modem,etc.)
    
    Dan
    

I believe it also does not have the Telecommander which means its half-duplex.
But, I'm really not sure.

    PC Compleat just told me that the only difference between the 932 and
    933 is the 1.6G (vs 1.2G) disc drive.
    
    What TeleCommander board does the 932 have?
    
    Dan

    
      I might as well add this to the "Why can't these things be simple?"
    string. I call PC's Compleat trying to get an EPP price on a 
    CELEBRIS GL ST system. At first I wasn't in the system as a discounted
    customer so I had to wait a day and call back to be able to get the 
    discounted price. 
      As an upgrade from my current Venturis 560 system I wanted the 
    short tower version of the GL. As it turns out, I can't get one unless
    I want one WITHOUT a hard drive installed! I guess that rules out any 
    preloaded software! Even though their catalog lists all the models, 
    they can't give me a clue as to when the next batch of GL/ST systems
    with hard drives installed is going to come in. Maybe I'll just hang 
    on to my system!
    

    re .190  GL ST without hard drive.
    
    Curious: is this because you're an EPP customer?  Would a "regular"
    paying customer also not be able to get a GL ST with hard drive
    from PC Compleat?  That's rediculous either way; there shouldn't
    be any disk supply problems.  Kratz

    Interesting. I just got a new PC Compleat catalog yesterday and this is
    what they have for the Celebris GL short tower:
    
    Processor	std/max ram	hard drive	model #		price
    
    P100	16MB/128MB	845MB		FR-963AA-MC	3159
    P120	16MB/128MB	845MB		FR-964AA-MC	3399
    P120	16MB/128MB	1.2GB		FR-964AA-MD	3489
    P133	16MB/128MB	1.6GB		FR-965AA-ME	3819
    P133	16MB/128MB	1.2GB		FR-965AA-MD	3729
    
    Preloaded sw is either DOS/Windows for Workgroups or Windows 95.
    
    Hope this helps.

    But we just announced the 150Mhz and 166Mhz versions.
    
                                            August

	re:192

	I got that PC Compleat catalog, the one with the "DEC Starion" in it.

    re: .192
    
    
      OK - call and ask them for a FR-964AA-MC and they'll try to sell you 
    a FR-964AA-AD (with no hard drive!)  - what a deal!
    
      BTW - I have the catalog!
    

    According to PCComplete, the EPP prices for the new 150Mhz and 166Mhz
    Starions are:

    950:	$2428.07
    960:	$2589.96

    PCcompleat has *no* ship date from Digital for these models.


    						-Paul