Conference 7.286::digital

    >                                   <<< Note 4032.0 by SEDSWS::OCONNELL "PETER PERFECT" >>>
    >                                                  -< vms support to go?? >-
    
    I'll bet that your customer got his information from the usenet
    (comp.os.vms, or comp.sys.dec). There have been threads in this vein
    going on for the past few months. Your customer has nothing to worry
    about. (Except perhaps the sky falling on his head :-))

    Your customer's fears are more than well-founded.  VMS support will end 
    completely in less than a year, I'm afraid. In order to help your
    customer out and lessen the impact, I've arranged for my brother Chuck
    who owns "Chuck's Pre-Owned Hardware" to buy his entire inventory for 5
    cents on the dollar.  E-mail me your customer's contact information and
    Chuck can arrange for pick-up this week.
    
    This, just out of the goodness of my heart.  I *really* wouldn't take
    advantage of a rube.  I promise.
    
    								Tex

Actually, we now only support OpenVMS, and have for some time.

Maybe you didn't notice.

/john

    This sounds like the kind of FUD certain of our competitors have been
    generating of late. H-P, in particular has been putting out all sorts
    of fiction.
    
    \dave

	Wait till JohnW sees this one.....

	Maybe Bob P. needs to send an e-mail out to all Digits telling
	them that we have no intention of throwing away a multi-BILLION
	dollar business. Sorry, but it amazes me that a person working
	for Digital these days would even THINK that this is possible.

							mike

    In the New Digital you must be clearer on what you mean by support;
    
    1. Holding the price of one product to artifically high prices to cover
    other products that wouldn't make it otherwise. (Pathworks FPS license
    is a good example)
    
    2. Providing updates and improvements to an existing product.
    

    Digital's current OpenVMS / NT Affinity strategy assumes a vibrant,
    profitable OpenVMS business through around 2015.  Wes Melling has been
    quoted on that date in several talks and articles. Don't hold him
    precisely to the date...
    
    It is somewhat amazing, and as you can see from the various responses,
    either extremely exasperating or very humorous, that intelligent people
    can seriously entertain the notion of Digital ending OpenVMS support. 
    OpenVMS Systems continue to generate the great majority of Digital's
    revenue and profit.  The OpenVMS customer base is over 450,000 units,
    and and overwhelming majority plan to continue with OpenVMS.  BEFORE
    the NT affinity announcement and subsequent Microsoft/Digital
    agreement, over 30% of new OpenVMS Alpha sales were for new
    applications, and over 20% to customers new to OpenVMS.  Response to
    the strategic alliance between NT and OpenVMS has been fabulous.
    
    
    We all need to continue to challenge these comments.  Hopefully as
    people read the answers and think about it just a little, they will
    realize how silly the question is.
    
    
    Mark Gorham
    Director, Business Management
    OpenVMS System Software Group 
                                                                   

    re -1
<		... The OpenVMS customer base is over 450,000 units,
<    and and overwhelming majority plan to continue with OpenVMS.  BEFORE
<    the NT affinity announcement and subsequent Microsoft/Digital
<    agreement, over 30% of new OpenVMS Alpha sales were for new
<    applications, and over 20% to customers new to OpenVMS.  Response to
<    the strategic alliance between NT and OpenVMS has been fabulous.
<    
<    
<    We all need to continue to challenge these comments.  Hopefully as
<    people read the answers and think about it just a little, they will
<    realize how silly the question is.
    
    
lessee... there are over 450,000 OpenVMS systems.  We just announced a very
    close alliance with Microsoft and will be sharing with them our VMS
    technology (clustering, etc) so they (and we) will be able to enhanse
    NT... and create NT clustering.  Neat.
    
    How many Millions of NT machines will then be "clusterable" in the
    Intel world?  When will that occur.. next year?  Two years?  Ten?
    
    Seems to me that we may want to be careful about just how similar NT
    technology becomes to VMS technology.
    
    What happens when/if Microsoft decides they don't want to be in bed
    with us anymore?
    
    tony

    You know I wish that Digital would just close down all OpenVMS support,
    stop all development efforts on OpenVMS, and tell our customers that
    OpenVMS is evil, satanic, and shouldn't be used by anyone ever again.
    
    On that day, I'll resign from Digital and from "John's Garage and OpenVMS
    Consulting" I make my first million in in the first year!:-))
    
    We have a huge business here with OpenVMS -- Let's not just throw it 
    away... Or if we do... Throw it to me;-)
    
    IBM has no such embarassment with the AS400 business (about the same 
    size as the OpenVMS business too!).  As long as it makes money and 
    sells -- They'll help customers to believe in it... We need the same 
    type of enthusiasm these days...
    
    But seriously, please don't get rid of OpenVMS, I like working second
    shift from my garage, but two shifts there would just be murder, no
    matter how much I was paid;-)
    
    John W.

>    IBM has no such embarassment with the AS400 business (about the same 
>    size as the OpenVMS business too!).  As long as it makes money and 
>    sells -- They'll help customers to believe in it... We need the same 
>    type of enthusiasm these days...
    
    John, IBM has no such embarassment with *anything*, as far as I can
    tell...although they should.  VMS, a tried, tested, and true product,
    should never be used in the same sentence with AS400 unless it's "We're
    throwing the AS400 away so we can use VMS".  Having worked integrating
    these absolute pieces of **** into business systems, I'm fascinated that
    someone would actually purchase something that has roughly the same
    capabilities as the original 360 series.
    
    IBM, much like the right reverend Sun Yung Moon, will help their
    customers believe in anything they sell...even if it's just a bill of
    goods.  We, on the other hand, need to sell our good products to
    customers, and collect the bills.
    								Tex

    re -.1
    
    Tex,
    
    We are in complete agreement about the technical merits of the IBM
    AS400.
    
    Closed vendor, Proprietary to a fault, IBM locks customers in worse than 
    OpenVMS ever could.
    
    But that not withstanding IBM manages to sell about 1 Digital Equipment
    Corporation worth of these beasts each and every year to their
    customers (although it seems to be slowing down lately)
    
    HP manages to sell HP3000s and 9000s at a very good clip even though
    they're not even open systems.  (I remember the HP9000 ad from last
    year touting how much more reliable it was than a "Unix" system!
    but I didn't hear anyone in the industry talking about HP's
    decommitment to Unix!)
    
    We need to present all of our products to the marketplace.  Then 
    let the customer(s) decide.  I have a strong hunch that we'll (like
    our competitors) sell a lot more as a result of having all our 
    wares on display (with nice things to say about all of them).
    
    JMHO
    
    John Wisniewski
     
    
    

    
    The sky is falling in...
    
    (flap wings, make clucking sound, run around farmyard)
    
    

    Beware: passing this rumor along can cause you to gain all kinds of
    unwanted attention, Digital-wide and industry-wide.  If you're a
    Digital employee, don't do it.  
    
    And if you can verify that a competitor has said this scurrilous lie,
    see if you can get the name of the competitor's salesperson.  Then, 
    bring it to the attention of the VMS group (the author of .7 comes to
    mind) ... maybe they could sic the legal eagles on the competitor??
    
    (Or if there's no law against outright lies about your competitor, then
    tell your customer that Pentiums always get the wrong answer, HP
    systems cause cancer, and SGI graphics require the presence of a little
    man behind the curtain.)
    
    	/john 

Don't tell 'em Pentiums always get the wrong answer; we sell a lot of Pentiums.

In fact, I believe we have a Corporate Philosophy which forbids bad-mouthing
the competition.  We are supposed to compare our products to competitors
products honestly and by showing our merits and only their true failings.

/john

	but SGI grahpics *DO* require a little man behind the curtain...

	;-)

	_kelley

re: .10
>    John, IBM has no such embarassment with *anything*, as far as I can
>    tell...although they should.  VMS, a tried, tested, and true product,
>    should never be used in the same sentence with AS400 unless it's "We're
>    throwing the AS400 away so we can use VMS". 

Where i live, which is practically in the backyard of our corporate HQ,
all you can find is companies running on AS400s.  It's scary.  Somebody
in their sales force evidently did a better job than somebody in ours
in touting the merits of AS400 over VMS (i lied slightly, there are a
couple of health care places running both VMS AND AS400, but not many).

- paul

> Where i live, which is practically in the backyard of our corporate HQ,
> all you can find is companies running on AS400s.  It's scary.  Somebody
> in their sales force evidently did a better job than somebody in ours
> in touting the merits of AS400 over VMS 


  I believe it's probably more because they had/have a _bunch_ of available
  software applications.

  - Taylor

Taylor:

> I believe it's probably more because they had/have a _bunch_ of
> available software applications.

  Okay. So? Does that make the profits that IBM earned less valuable?

                                   Atlant

��     <<< Note 4032.9 by DPDMAI::WISNIEWSKI "ADEPT of the Virtual Space." >>>
��                 -< OpenVMS, John's Garage, 1900-VMS-SUPPORT >-

��    You know I wish that Digital would just close down all OpenVMS support,
��    stop all development efforts on OpenVMS, and tell our customers that
��    OpenVMS is evil, satanic, and shouldn't be used by anyone ever again.
��    
��    On that day, I'll resign from Digital and from "John's Garage and OpenVMS
��    Consulting" I make my first million in in the first year!:-))

    ...assuming you can keep from alienating all your customers.

    <<< Note 4032.19 by LEEL::LINDQUIST "Lies, damn lies and management" >>>

>    ...assuming you can keep from alienating all your customers.

    Well, considering that John has been successfully selling and
    supporting Digital products and services for ages, and national
    DECUS felt good enough to vote him Digital Counterpart of the Year
    a couple of years back, and that he's the motivating force behind
    one of the strongest LUGs in the country, and runs a *very*
    popular and widely used BBS in Dallas for Digital Users, and was
    almost singlehandedly responsible for the OpenVMS Web Page coming
    to life on Digital's web hierarchy (after he presided over its
    birth and infancy for several months on the LUG's machine), I feel
    there's little danger of John alienating his customers.  I'd buy
    stock in his company in a heartbeat.

	Mike

>    <<< Note 4032.19 by LEEL::LINDQUIST "Lies, damn lies and management" >>>

>��     <<< Note 4032.9 by DPDMAI::WISNIEWSKI "ADEPT of the Virtual Space." >>>
>��                 -< OpenVMS, John's Garage, 1900-VMS-SUPPORT >-
>
>��    You know I wish that Digital would just close down all OpenVMS support,
>��    stop all development efforts on OpenVMS, and tell our customers that
>��    OpenVMS is evil, satanic, and shouldn't be used by anyone ever again.
>��    
>��    On that day, I'll resign from Digital and from "John's Garage and OpenVMS
>��    Consulting" I make my first million in in the first year!:-))
>
>    ...assuming you can keep from alienating all your customers.

Lee, what are you trying to say here?  Why would you think John would alienate
his (our) customers?

			SQ

    re -.1
    
    Mike,
    
    <<<blush>>>  Can I get you to write my next review or biography?;-)
    
    You're very kind to defend me, thank you. Our credentials
    in this notes conferance should not be an issue or a prerequsite, we 
    are all Digital employees trying to come to grips with a company that 
    is changing for the 1990s.  Our concerns and issues should be heard
    or at least made available to the rest of the Digital community
    thru this forum.
    
    Lee and I are going to have to take this squabble offline and with 
    some luck to some type of conclusion.
    
    Again, thank you for the note about me, it's gratifying to know that
    the folks I respect and are my collegues appreciate and respect what 
    I've tried to accomplish at Digital (and remember it in such vivid
    detail;-).
    
    John W.

I read Lee's note to refer to Digital's alienation of its customers, not as
a criticism of John.

    
    Well, I suppose the responses went as I expected.
    
    Whilst not intending to put my fingers in a Hornets nest, seems
    like It wound some of you chaps up to a state of frenzy!!.
    
    I was simply mentioning a rumour that I had heard from
    a CUSTOMER, which makes it more important to have put down
    straight away.
    
    The request (.0) was posed in such a way purposely to solicit
    input from as wider geography as possible.
    
    Thanks for all the responses.
    
    Patrick. 

    The rumours I've heard from customers include just about everything
    besides Pia Zadora replacing Palmer as CEO...and I'm waiting for that
    one any day.
    
    The first thing I do whenever I get the rumour du jour is laugh and say
    "Where'd you get *that* from?!?".  I usually then find out it was the
    IBM rep, the mailboy who read an article in "some computer magazine he
    can't remember", etc.  I then proceed to explain that Digital, unlike
    the majority of our competitors, has done an excellent job of
    supporting systems that we could have let die 20 years ago (there are
    *tons* of PDPs out there, f'rinstance), ensuring systems are upwardly
    compatible, our software ports from machine to machine, and our systems
    can actually communicate with each other and the outside world.
    
    In contrast to IBM, where we have one client that uses their VAX to
    enable their AS400 and 3090 communicate.  Here's my routine:
    
    		* Make 'em cite their source for the rumour
    
    		* Dispel same on the spot, but promise to research it
    
    		* Research it and follow up
    
    		* Ask if their are any more "questions" we can answer
    
    I've found when I do this that the credibility of the whispered
    grapevine dies and mine, thus Digital's, rises.  "A good offense is the
    best defense", "if you're in range then so is the enemy", "kill 'em all and
    let God sort 'em out", "no quarter asked...none given".  If our
    competition wants to play hardball, they might wish to wear their
    protective cups at the sites I visit.
    
    But maybe I need to be more assertive... :^]
    
    								Tex

RE: .-1

Another gem, Tex.  By the way, thanks for the phrase "If you're in range
then so is the enemy".  I hadn't heard that one, and it's wonderful...

-- Ken Moreau

	If DEC isn't trying to get out of VMS then why is it that we in
IS have to do "all new development on the DEC UNIX platform"???? 



Vern

re Note 4032.27 by VERN::CARPENTER:

> 	If DEC isn't trying to get out of VMS then why is it that we in
> IS have to do "all new development on the DEC UNIX platform"???? 
  
        Well, there are certain advantages to having to train for and
        maintain one platform, and there probably is more third-party
        development for Digital Unix than VMS (and IS is expected to
        buy rather than build, if it can, right?).

        Bob

��                     <<< Note 4032.27 by VERN::CARPENTER >>>

��	If DEC isn't trying to get out of VMS then why is it that we in
��IS have to do "all new development on the DEC UNIX platform"???? 

    On the other hand, dec just spent a pile of money to add
    64-bit support to vms.   Since piles of money are pretty
    rare around here, I'd think there is a business plan to
    recoup the money.

    Aren't the IS folks the someone who demanded that all people
    use ALL-IN-1, even if some other mail client was more
    suitable for their work?

>	If DEC isn't trying to get out of VMS then why is it that we in
>IS have to do "all new development on the DEC UNIX platform"???? 
    
    They're obviously being punished for something. :^]