Conference 7.286::digital

Yeah - I saw the same rumor in DIGITAL note 4004....  Makes for great
speculation - it would be wonderful timing - just as those who got bushwacked 
by the last freeze would finally be getting their (typically below inflation)
raise.  I just hope it's someone's overactive imagination.

				Steve

    WE are in the process of salary planning as we speak in the US MCS.  We
    are back to quarterly with dates effective the last month of every
    quarter.  I have heard of nothing to imply a freeze.
    
    Joe

    We're doing salary planning now also, and there is an
    approved budget for us, not a freeze.  Calm down, folks :-)
    

    Joe
    
    Why the delay in salary planning ?
    
    In Feb mcs Canada did a 6 month plan that was suppose to take us to
    July 1.  Should not the July - Dec plan have been completed in Q4.
    
    The problem (IMO) is that with the new reward system Digital isn't
    accountable to the employees to ever say when or if they are going to
    get an increase. Without this accountablity things will continue to
    slide as doing Salary Planning on time wont be a priority.
     
    
    
    Brian V
    

Re: .4

It's been like that for the whole 17 years I've been at Digital.  Salary
planning schedules have almost always been deferred, stretched, delayed,
etc. - most often to create a one-time boost to Digital's bottom line at the
expense of the employee.  And then, even when the planning is done, there are
mandates to lop off 10%, 20%, etc. which drives the managers crazy.  There is
no accountability, no predictability.  The only way an employee can be SURE
they're getting an increase is when it shows up on their paycheck - even 
getting a letter describing the increase is not a guarantee.  (At least I have
never heard of an increase being rescinded.)

This is the first time in many years that I have not heard of last-minute
scrambles to redo salary plans.  It suggests that things are stabilizing
after all.

					Steve

    The following entry has been contributed by a member of our community
    who wishes to remain anonymous.  If you wish to contact the author by
    mail, please send your message to QUARK::MODERATOR, specifying the
    conference name and note number. Your message will be forwarded with
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				Steve






    Folks,
    
    (Sorry to have to be anonymous, but my job situation is changing so
    rapidly that I don't want to take a chance on rocking the boat.)
    
    My level 2 manager said that, while salary planning is not being
    delayed, the implementation of raises is being delayed until September. 
    This is all fine with me, as long as it happens then.  I just checked
    in here to see if he was feeding me a line, or if other people have
    heard the same thing.
    
    It sounds a lot like what Steve said in .5 - just delaying giving out
    the money to get a little extra cash (are we that strapped for cash?)
    
    Cheers...

    For some time now raises have been assigned to be awarded in the last
    month of each quarter. This was changed from an every month basis and
    was explained to all the members in my organization.
    
    This is not a delay in the raise, it is a consistency in delivery.
    

    We went from every month to once a quarter, effective on the last month
    of the quarter; then last year after the freeze, we went to a half year
    plan to get us to FY96 and went to the first month of the quarter,
    which minimized the length of the freeze.  We have just rotated back to
    the last month of the quarter which negates the minimizing effect of
    the half year plan.  

    re: .8
    
    "Who's on first?"
    "What's on second?"
    "I don't know's on third...."
    
    And the beat goes on....
    
    Mav

    
    re: .4
    
    You can't compare salary plans across national boundaries. It's
    frequently the case that each national country is on a different time
    scale for salary planning. Sometimes they match up, but often they
    don't. [I used to work in the UK, and it varied then with the US].
    Just FYI...
    
    Mike

    As .10 says, this varies internationally; As I understand it (I'm a 
    US employee in the UK at the moment) the UK scheme was quarterly at 
    the end of the middle month of a quarter. Given UK folk get paid 
    monthly, not weekly, this makes sense to me. However, the rumor mill
    over here also says that things are getting pushed out a month to
    allow time for further evaluations (at least in Pesatori's org), and 
    that any (remaining?) salary actions would be paid retroactively.
    
    Dave

    Canada is now part of the America's so shouldn't we be on the same
    schedule as th U.S. ??
    
    Brian V
    

    I wonder how much ill will this petty savings generated?

    Here are  a few idea for the mis-named senior leadership
    team:

    Layoff everyone you need to.  Get it over with.  Don't keep
    'picking the scab' for four years.   Maybe layoff a few
    thousand more 'just in case'.   You're all making multiple
    hundreds of thousands of dollars per year.  Make a tough
    decision.  If you can act decisively, fire yourself.

    Set up a plan that makes pay-for-performance more than just
    another management lie.

    Don't do stupid things like limit accrued vacation, or move
    pay increases to the end of the quarter just because it saves
    a few dollars.  Employees are not idiots.   They know they're
    being screwed.  You're not sneaking this by anyone.  There is
    a real cost (in ill-will) for most of the financial savings
    around benefits that have been made.

    Don't think that when you nickle-and-dime employees  that
    they will ever forgive or forget.  I certainly won't.

    i'm not sure what's going on here... the only real change to this
    year's delivery system (in the U.S.) is the plan will be delivered
    in 2 quarters instead of 4. the quarterly delivery system is a
    much less expensive system (adminstratively).
    
    the process really isn't about screwing anyone. in fact, it contributes
    to your continued employment.
                                              
    lighten up and enjoy it...
    
    Chip

    
.14>                                      ...the only real change to this
.14>    year's delivery system (in the U.S.) is the plan will be delivered
.14>    in 2 quarters instead of 4...
    
    What exactly does this mean?
    
     -  The plan is really a six month plan rather than a one year plan?
    
     -  It's really a one year plan, but people will get raises at two
        points during the year rather than four?
    
     -  Other? (please explain in copious detail)
    

    
    AARGH !
    
    1 know your market worth
    
    2 are you happy here ? (related to 1, job role, prospects etc)
    
    3 if answer to 2 is *no*, try to fix (related to 1, job role,
      prospects etc.)
    
    4 if you can't fix, leave, and don't feel bad about it.
    
    5 Note that in difficult times, stupid decisions are often made
      by senior types, along with good ones, just to keep the whole
      ship going (later admitted as such, sometimes).
    
    6 go back to 1 above.
    
    
    Now, what determines your market worth ?
    
    
    Rgds,
    
    AW
    

    RE: .16,  well said 
    
    Why should we really complain about salary freezes?  Even if it has
    been x number of years since the last increase.
    
    Relatively speaking virtually all Digital employees are rich when
    compared to more than 50% of the world's population.
    
    Besides, I tend to disbelieve the rumor that there is in fact a freeze...
    
    We have yet to see announcements of 20+% increases for the SLT, which
    would normally happen first 
    
    (-:  
    
    :-)  
    
    

    .....im sick of working my balls off and not getting a anything for it
    except a #2 pencil with an eraser to fill out a managment survey to
    find out what they sould be doing....
    
    results of survey......employees need pat on back and cash in
    pocket!!!!
    
    re.13 LOVED IT...
    
    HORNet
    

    Re. 17
    
    Your remarks don't cut it with my landlord, or at the supermarket
    checkout.
    
    I'm a secretary and don't make anything like enough to be able to
    have my pay drag so far behind the rate of inflation.  I last had
    a pay raise in 1993.
    
    I also know that any pay increase I get, if any at all, will only
    happen if there are $ left over from rewarding the rest of the people
    in my group.  My guess is that my chances are close to, or lower
    than, 0.
    

>    Your remarks don't cut it with my landlord, or at the supermarket
>    checkout.

Uh, I think the operative word was "irony".

OK all you Whiners, You know the door that you came in thru this morning.
If you think you'r worth so much go right back out thru it and find your
self a job that pays you what you THINK you're WORTH.

re .21, I assume the lack of smiley wasn't intentional?

Chris.

    re:.21
    
    I know of many QUALITY people who are doing just that.  Digital can't
    afford it either.
    
    If you want to talk about whiners, listen to some of the folks in the
    management ranks who whine because people just want a few simple things
    to make them more efficient in their jobs.  These individuals also
    whine because people don't act as loyal and dedicated as they once did. 
    These are the same managers who won't believe that the success of an
    organization is dependant on the good will and morale of the employees
    and keep asking that the workers (rowers, grunts, peons, etc.) to give
    more and more without ever once considering the possibility that the
    employees don't have any more "extra" to give.  
    
    I agree with you to a point that if someone is totally unhappy with
    their job, they should find another, but, there are folks that you
    label "whiners" who truly want to make Digital better and are trying
    their darnedest to get some people to wake up.
    
    Ken_who_can_always_see_room_for_improvement.

��      <<< Note 4004.21 by ANGLIN::SULLIVAN "Take this job and LOVE it" >>>
��                             -< FIND ANOTHER JOB >-

��OK all you Whiners, You know the door that you came in thru this morning.
��If you think you'r worth so much go right back out thru it and find your
��self a job that pays you what you THINK you're WORTH.

    So, once all the people with the skill and initiative to bail
    out do so, just what sort of workforce will be left behind?

    
    
    
    
    re: 21
    
    >>OK all you Whiners
    
    I'm listening...
    
    >>You know the door that you came in thru this morning.
    
    Yes I do...
    
    >>If you think you'r worth so much 
    
    Not soo much, but I know what I'm worth..
    
    >>go right back out thru it and find
    >>your self a job that pays you what you THINK you're WORTH.
    
    Thanks for the advice.  I did just that... and more.
    
    Allan

    Any speculation around the major business annoucement this week or will
    it just be the release of the year end-quater end numbers?

    >> OK, all you Whiners
    
    OK, I've heard this before...in fact, we had a department manager who
    wound up his motivational speech that way, with the exact words "Every
    Digital employee has a choice to make when they get up in the morning:
    go to work or not.  It's your choice."
    
    This, in response to some very well-thought questions about the new
    business direction and our role.  Coincidentally, same exec (since
    left) couldn't tell us what our new organization would be, what it's
    focus would be, or even how we'd purchase supplies, equipment, schedule
    work, or sell our services.
    
    Some of our brightest, at that point, perceived their relative worth in
    his eyes and made that choice immediately.  The clients, perceiving
    that Digital might have a hard time supporting people, are sucking up
    our employees as they hit the door.
    
    This has severely affected our bottom line in many cases, as perception
    became reality...we often don't have the people to support either
    ourselves *or* the clients.
    
    So it's cute to think "Hey, I read 'Atlas Shrugged'.  The whiners can
    go ply their skills on the free market!", but a major point's been
    missed.  If you'll remember, the steel mill manager had deep respect
    and good paychecks for his best workers.  That was one of the ways he
    stayed competitive.
    
    								Tex

    
    	Well said, Tex -
    
    	It is about time *everyone* in this company stop focusing on
    themselves either "being abused" or "being stupid" - and get serious
    about who actually puts the money in our paychecks - our customers!!!
    
    	I, for one, complain about everything that is identified as being
    broken, and ain't being fixed; but feeling sorry for myself is
    something I gave up years ago. Nowadays we live in a highly charged
    marketplace, and only the strong survive, and you can't be strong
    fighting the old wars.
    
    	So today resolve to be a winner, and together let us put this show
    on the road.
    
    		the Greyhawk

RE: last few

>    	So today resolve to be a winner, and together let us put this show
>    on the road.
    
Greyhawk, thank you for coming up with a better reply to 3992.34 than I was
able to.  Keep complaining, but keep the right attitude as well...

-- Ken Moreau

    Greyhawk, great...just a slight modification....
    
    So today resolve to be a winner, lead, follow, or get out of the way
    of us who would like to...
    
    

    
    from the golf notes file:
    
    > Tuesday's winner will advance to Grayhawk Golf Club in Scottsdale,
    
    
    

	I normally do not enter replies to notes in this conference, but I
	felt the need to this time.

	During the last 5 years I have been due for a PA just after a freeze
	was initiated.

	As a result I have not received an increase during that time.  Not a 
	whine, a statement of fact.  Now let's state other facts.

	The cost of paying for food, housing, transportation and medical care
	has increased during that time.  So, in effect Digital has given me a pay
	reduction over the last five years.  This was done dispite good PA's and
	dispite Digital's supposed policy of 'pay for performance'

	So that I can cover my bills, I am now working two jobs.

	My work is good and I am always getting good reviews.  If this continues
	I and many other good workers will be forced to leave Digital in order
	to live.  Is that what Digital upper management it trying to tell us?

	After a number of years with no increase in pay, I have to start
	considering if it is advisable to continue to work for Digital.  Can
	this company afford to have good workers forced into making that 
	desision?

	Pay freezes may well be needed to fix the companies financial problems
	when the company has little to no cash.  That is not the case here.
	It is my opinion that somebody has taken the easy solution to solve
	a difficult problem.  I have seen this done before here at Digital
	and at other companies.  If we are to continue to grow and strengthen
	we need managers that strive to find the true solution and the true
	problem, not use a easy solution that does not really solve the problem

	dave.

Re: .32
>	My work is good and I am always getting good reviews.  If this continues
>	I and many other good workers will be forced to leave Digital in order
>	to live.  Is that what Digital upper management it trying to tell us?


You got it.

				Steve

RE: .32

	Don't worry, there will be a college hire that makes half of 
	what you make coming in to take your place.

						mike

>	Don't worry, there will be a college hire that makes half of 
>	what you make coming in to take your place.

in my experience, making double what I earn...

Chris.

    I think this string is interesting to say the least. I've been
    interviewing candidates for jobs in things like help desks for our
    customers. No malice intended but, none of these individuals have met
    the standards set forth by the customer. All the while, Digital MCS
    employees that do fit the profile walk by my little interview room.
    
    	"Now let me get this straight. I'm to interview temps for a job
    that we can fill internally, but I'm not to consider internal people?"
    
    On a different note, I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs
    of salery planing but I do know that only a percentage of the employees
    can be considered each year. Somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2 if memory
    serves. Couple this with the fact that raises average about 3% to 5%
    and you get 4% raise every other year if your lucky. 
    
    What is the cost of living % anyway?
    
    jim
    

    RE: Cost of living
    
    Inflation in the U.S. has been running between 2.5 - 3% per year.
    These numbers vary depend on the source, for example, the inflation
    rate (cost of living index) is higher if you use the numbers to which
    U.S. Senators and Congressman's benefits are pegged, lower if you use the
    numbers to which the old folks on Social Security's stipend is pegged. 
    Generally speaking the above numbers are pretty much in the ball park.
    
    There is another dynamic that must be taken into account which is not
    necessarily inflation.  The market price of certain skills also has an
    index that can be judged.  For example, the average starting salary for
    college graduates with xyz degree can be used to infer a skill specific
    inflation rate.  Probably also for experienced employees, but harder to
    determine.
    
    A dynamic that I have seen in this regard has definitely affected
    Digital.  Graduates in certain fields, particularly technical fields
    have suffered from the following syndrome as they have come to work for
    Digital in the past five years or so, maybe even a little longer:
    
    Employee is hired at salary x, works hard, does well, maybe even gets 
    a promotion or two.  But very little in the way of salary increases
    because of Digital's conditions.
    
    New employee is hired several years later. Because Digital must pay the
    going market rate for the new employee, they hire the employee at a
    higher pay than the existing employee is making, sometimes
    substantially more.
    
    The implicit message: The existing employee's experience at Digital has
    negative value in the market.
    
    Before I get accused of whining, please understand that I am only
    stating the facts and I do know several very talented people that have
    left precisely because of this reason.  In my opinion they are exactly
    the people we don't want to leave.  The reaction often is glee within
    the group because someone else (often longer term employees that have
    also experienced the "good" times and are fairly well compensated
    anyways and may not have the most current skills) can now be saved from
    the down sizing mania we have experienced.
    
    I have no idea what Digital is doing to address this and I assume they
    are doing nothing.  They seem to focus mainly on headcount and not
    necessarily the types of heads.
    
    While some people have chosen to ignore these peculiarities and just
    work hard and hope that eventually things work themselves out as we
    begin to actually make money, it can not be expected that everyone will
    feel that way.  
    
    For those of you who would accuse others of whining and just suggest
    that they shut up and leave, be careful for what you wish, for your wish 
    may come true.  This would not necessarily be best for our company. At
    one level, they should be applauded for having stuck it out this long.
    
    Ken
          
    

        RE:.36

    >On a different note, I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs
    >of salery planing but I do know that only a percentage of the employees
    >can be considered each year. Somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2 if memory
    >serves. Couple this with the fact that raises average about 3% to 5%
    >and you get 4% raise every other year if your lucky. 

    	4% every other year, I'd take that and go away smiling.  In the
    past 11 years I've gotten 2 raises 3.5% & 2% had fantastic reviews all
    along, makes me wonder.  The other factor nobody seems to want to 
    acknowledge is IMO what I call politics.  If you work 9-5 and make a
    lot of noise, it doesn't matter that you actually are doing nothing 
    (your highly visible) your chances are better than someone that although 
    they are good to great performers work an off shift and don't make the 
    noise as nobody is here to hear it (their not so visible).  JMHO

    Joe

    RE .37 - (Rathole alert!)

>    These numbers vary depend on the source, for example, the inflation
>    rate (cost of living index) is higher if you use the numbers to which
>    U.S. Senators and Congressman's benefits are pegged, lower if you use the
>    numbers to which the old folks on Social Security's stipend is pegged. 
>    Generally speaking the above numbers are pretty much in the ball park.

    Ken,

    What index is used to compute the raises given to members of congress?
    How much different was this than the adjustments to Social Security
    last year?

    					Thank you,

    					Ed

    
    I have got stuck in every wage freeze there was.  I have not had a
    rise in 3 years.  I am at the very very very bottom of my pay scale,
    and I just moved into a new job in my same group (same job code) and
    the person they are going to replace me with will make 5,000 - 7,000
    more a year then me (for the same job)  UGH!

    RE: .39,  to continue a rat hole
    
    I am not exactly sure what the index is, but I remember reading an
    article that talked about the differences in the indexing.  Of course
    our wonderful congressman set up an index specifically for their own
    benefits which is suitably optimistic.
    
    You would think that they would use the same indexing as either federal
    employees or Social Security or some other "standard" indexing scheme.
    
    Didn't surprise me a bit when I read about it.
    
    Ken

    What's a raise? I seem to remember something with a name like that, but
    it's been so long...
    
    \dave

RE: .42

	It's something that puts you in a higher tax bracket and you 
	make less money.. Or something like that. :) :)

							mike

    
    	So that's it. A raise is *not* good for you;-) Now I understand why
    Digital is not giving us any of these, it wouldn't be good for us to go
    into higher tax brackets. Do I have this right?
    
    		the Greyhawk

    Geee, I'm GLAD I haven't had one of those lately :^)
    
    \dave

    ...but since we haven't made any money for five years (until now),
    I'm suprised we didn't get pay decreases!  (I don't count inflation
    as a pay decrease, although some may.)  Some people did rather
    well, even during the worst times.  Others received training, new 
    skills and diplomas; new careers, etc.  Others didn't do well at all!

    Actually, some of us have had pay decreases.  While our salary didn't
    go down, a couple of years ago many of us lost our car plan.  While
    I'll be the first to admit I don't need a company car (or even a plan-B
    car), it was offered as part of my compensation when I was offered
    employment.  I realize that company policy says that a company car
    cannot be part of compensation, it was still offered as such.  
    
    I know one person who actually took a slight pay decrease to come to
    Digital, because the car plan gave him an effective raise.  He lost his
    car plan too.

    Re: Note 4004.47 by BSS::BASCHAL
    
�    I know one person who actually took a slight pay decrease to come to
�    Digital, because the car plan gave him an effective raise.  He lost his
�    car plan too.
    
    You now know two!
    
    	BD�

    and three
    

��  <<< Note 4004.48 by DYPSS1::DYSERT "Barry - Custom Software Development" >>>
��                    -< and i'm sure there are plenty more >-

��    You now know two!

    Wow, four homophones used properly in a sentence.  

    You can't be a digital employee,  you must be a spy from some
    secret grammer planet.

> ��    You now know two!
> 
>     Wow, four homophones used properly in a sentence.

I only see 3: now??

> 
>     You can't be a digital employee,  you must be a spy from some
>     secret grammer planet.
             -------

And you must be a Digital employee (someone was going to write it, it might as 
well be me :^).

    <<< RE .LAST
    
    	You know for.
    
    -Mike Z.

    Please note:  My name is Adriane Gilder.  I am "temping" now.  Because
    this assignment is only 4-5 weeks, I will not be getting my own
    account.  Therefore, these comments are mine and NOT, REPEAT NOT THE
    OWNER OF THIS ACCOUNT.
    
    I gotta tell ya, folks.  I was out there....and it's ugly out there.
    
    I was TFSO'd in June of 1994 right smack dab in the middle of personal
    criseseses...note the many plurals...my mother had died suddenly,
    12/3/93, 9 days after her death my father had a stroke, 6 days later a 
    second, two months later a 3rd and died 4/29.  But on March 15, I was
    told that my job was coming to an end...but I did have several weeks in
    which to try to find a job within the company....I wasn't able to.  So,
    TFSO I was and sent out to find something new....
    
    Even with all the Drake Beam Morin deprogramming efforts, I never did
    get this company out of my system.  And GOD KNOWS I TRIED!!!  I went to
    several other corporations both interviewing and "temping" but never
    could find a place for myself....I was miserable, and no matter how
    much make up I put on, I couldn't hide my observations that "Digital is
    in rough shape, but this place, my Gawd, who thunk up this ridiculous
    M.O.!".
    
    So after 13 months of flittering from Pillar-to-Lampost, I called TAD
    Agency who handles Digital re-entries.  They took me back in a VAX9000
    microsecond.  It took less than 24 hours for me to have an assignment. 
    Not just any old assignment but a really good assignment.
    
    But please understand that there are some mindsets out there...Here are
    a few....
    
    "You worked for Digital...Well Digital has a reputation of highly paid
    secretaries who really just sit and do calendar management.  That's not
    what we're about.  Our secretaries REALLY WORK!".
    
    "Hmmm, how much of a salary are you looking for?  ...That much?  Well,
    we can't possibly meet it"
    
    "Well, Digital has a unique atmosphere.  This company just isn't like
    that"
    
    "Oh, you did all that? Why, then were you laid off?"  After an
    appropriately discreet answer I got back, "...Don't give me that Drake
    Beam Morin **it!  I want a straight answer!"
    
    Over and over again, I got fed up.  I'm back and happy to be here. 
    Even if I don't have my real badge, which, BTW, I'd sell my soul to get
    back....I at least am able to get up in the morning and be happy to be
    going to work.
    
    Bottom line, look real good before you leap! 
    
    JMHO!
    
    Adriane Gilder

    
    Oh and just to cheer us all up the cuurent holder of the management
    gaffe of the year must be the UK HRO manager who is quoted in the UK
    version of "Digital Today" as saying "there has been no pay freeze"!!!
    Funny that i sure i heard BP say he was implementing a world-wide pay
    freeze in a DVN last year and then taking off this freeze some months
    later!
    
    Gerald_who_also_hasnt_had_a_raise_for_three_years