| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 3875.1 | or maybe DECPC* ? | WELKIN::ADOERFER | Hi-yo Server, away! | Fri May 12 1995 16:45 | 9 |
| Looking for the kind of stuff that a find of DEC* does?
It's too bad this infobase isn't set up for CBR. "Workstation"
seems to be on several pages, whereas the keywords seem to be
project names.
The contact for the infobase is on the first page. You did let
him know, right?
_bill
|
| 3875.2 | | DECWET::FARLEE | Insufficient Virtual um...er.... | Fri May 12 1995 17:31 | 7 |
| Try
FIND "DEC 3000*"
The quotes are required, but if you have a model number, it
seems to work.
Kevin
|
| 3875.3 | VTX -> useless | ALFAM7::URBAN | | Fri May 12 1995 20:45 | 51 |
| I find VTX almost worthless. There seems to be no logic whatsoever to
it. The only thing I do with it use the keywords that I have memorized,
like "vtx elf", or "vtx easynet"
If having to enter "PF1-ENTER" to go to the next page ("vtx ispak")
isn't a blatant admission of failure, I don't know what is...
Granted, it cannot be easy to organize as much information as they have
easily, and I wouldn't know how to go about it myself, but it seems to
me this sort of thing is too important to be as neglected as it _seems_
to be. digital will live or die based (among other things) on how well
it can share information among it's employees.
What are we doing with all that glorious technology that we try to
sell/foist off on our customers (linkworks, DCE, client this, server
that, corba, OOP, OLE, ...) Whatever happened to USING WHAT WE SELL?
I read a pamphlet recently (admittetly, it was referring to germany, but
it's valid nonetheless) that said something to the effect of
"let digital -the experts with years of experience- come to
your company and advice you how best to propell your company
into state-of-the-art information-management blah blah"
and I almost split my gut laughing so hard... We can't information
manage our way out of a paper bag. Look at:
o IS using phase IV (said in a low authoritative voice)
"corporate policy" naming conventions on the phase V net. (I
suspect the management software (written for phase IV
(or II?)) will be with us for many years to come
o how IS "tries" to manage TCP/IP (what's TCP/IP?)
o all the monolithic software everywhere (notes, QAR system) in the
age of client/server
o all the pieces of paper floating around in this age of the
"paperless office" and "workflow software diddledoo"
To be sure, it's probably (mostly) not IS's fault that they're behind the
times. Their budgets and headcounts are continually being reduced, but
the demands being made of them are continually increasing. I heard a
story recently about a guy in IS who had been given ONE HOUR downtime to
do the phase IV -> phase V upgrade, but who had not been allowed to go
to even ONE training having remotely to do with phase V.
If digital wants to be able to compete, it's going to have to get its
act together, and write (or BUY) THE software to take advantage of all that
lovely technology. me? I'll just stick to perl.
Tirade over. what was the question anyhow?
I've got my asbestos suit on...
Rob Urban
|
| 3875.4 | | RTFM1::OSTMAN | Time - is what keeps everything from happening at once. | Sat May 13 1995 15:55 | 41 |
|
re: .3
re: "VTX useless"
Well, you don't have to enter "PF1-ENTER" if VTX is set up correct.
In fact on most of the pages that say that I should end with "PF1-ENTER"
a simpel carrige_return seems to work ok for me. Seems as the maintainer
of the page might have written "PF1-ENTER" out of old habbit or maybe
not had the chance (time) to update the page in a while. The "no logic"
seems to me as function of the fact that the VTX pages within Digital is
_not_ one big information repository designed by one group. But a number
of VTX server setup by different groups in different organisations,
countries and culures etc.
Who are "they" by the way that you refers to as the maintainers of the
information in "VTX"? I don't think they exist as homogen group, it can
be just about anyone, like an overworked secretary with the task of
keeping a few VTX pages up to date as just an other task.
I've seen lots of problems with "VTX" but just about all of them were
related to; organization and updating freq. of the information or in one
case some _external_ tools invoked from a VTX page. I can't see how the
VTX product can be blamed for any of the above, It would be like blaming
the notes application for _my_ poor english (no spell isn't installed on
this system), ill informed and unfair.
Note that I'm not saying that we shouldn't use something other than VTX
in the future. but we better fix the real problems first or we'll have
this kind of discussion again in a few years about some other tool,
perhapps WWW servers... However looking around on the pages in our
internal WWW servers the same things are repeting them selfs; out of date
information, poorly organised pages, unavailable pages etc. To me it
seems as "information providing and updating" are much more of a problem
than what tools we use.
Re: Notes a monolithic application.
Please, what is your definition of monolithic in the context of notes as
an application?
/Kjell
|
| 3875.5 | monolithic = non distributed | ALFAM7::URBAN | | Sat May 13 1995 16:52 | 28 |
| by monolithic I mean it runs on a specific node in the net ONLY. If the
node (cluster) is down, or the connection to that part of the world is
down, tough luck. The basic technology exists to eliminate such
problems.
re: vtx
I have no idea how it is structured (or not). I only know I can't use
it. The sub-choices in a menu seem to have nothing to do with the menu
name. It's trial and error to find anything. What would help is a
keyword search that was really a keyword search, instead of some
useless context-sensitive something-or-other. For example, if for every
choice in VTX, there were a one-line description of the choice that
contained as many keywords relating to the choice as possible, and I
could simply say:
lookup keywords XYZ
and get:
fYZ <menu a><menu b><menu c><menu d> (keyword)
Where the first part is the menu-jungle one has to traverse, and the
second the keyword to go directly there...
then I would be a lot happier.
still got the suit on...
-rob urban
|
| 3875.6 | | WELKIN::ADOERFER | Hi-yo Server, away! | Sun May 14 1995 00:38 | 307 |
| re .3 Very correct! (from my point of view). One minor point,
with all current clients, when you are on the last field of a form, a
carriage return = FORM ENTER. Windows/motif clients have an icon
for form enter. The only "reasonable" explantion for the "hidden"
last fields, usually next to something like PRESS PF1-ENTER is that
that technique allows the user to change their answers/review
their input before submitting it (with tabs). If you DON'T have
the "hidden last" field, folks type return and you get mail saying
they didn't mean to transmit what they typed. (If you do have the
field to make you hit one more return, obviously obsolete :-) )
The FORM ENTER function is very close to http's submit, except you
don't have to hunt around on the page to find it. :-) And I agree
that (for the most part) http is still a subset of things you can
do with vtx protocol (with a few exceptions), so
yes, you're seeing the same things vtx has had problems with over the
past decade, given the one transport diference.
re .5
If you changed the work "lookup" for "search", "useless context-
sensitive something-or-other" could be close to what you want.
There are very few vtx infobases using that feature, and probably
safe to say none taking advantage of all the features of searching.
But caution on using the "menu-jungle" to traverse. The "corporate"
(top) entry point is updated weekly, and any navigation that depends
on instructions like menu a choice 2 menu c choice 3 etc would either
be VERY local or incorrect in a week.
You said you wern't familiar with the structure of VTX services,
so I'll limit it to internally and in brief... (it is in need of an
audit), there are roughly 170 "site" servers, what each site server
offers by keyword can be seen by the "find *" command, however, most
sites offer a common corporate list, so usually anywhere in the world
you can go up to a vtx client and type up to 16 characters and get
to one of about 270 registered services. (Assuming you can get to
a vtx client. If you can't, some vtx infobases translate well to web
clients). Since you asked, here is the May 2nd 1995 list of registered
vtx services (some are way out of date)
Infobase Name Keyword name
A Repository of Corporate-Level Policies POLICY
A-to-Z Guide to Resources in Digital ATOZ
ACCESS - Canada ACCESS_CA
ACCESS - US ACCESS to Selling Information ACCESS_US
ADVANTAGE Leadtime Menu (Ayr,Scotland) ADVANTAGE
AIDS/HIV Program Office - Corporate AIDS
ASSETS for Europe ASSETS_EUROPE
ASSETS from the U.S. Digital Solutions Library ASSETS_US
Account Issue Management - U.S. AIM
Account Team Advice Package - GIA GIA_ADVICE
Accounting Manuals - Corporate (CAM) AMTABLES
Admin & Logistics Program Coord-Europe PCV
Administration & Logistics (A&L) - Europe ALINFO
Alpha AXP Third Party Applications Program AXPAPPS
Americas Logistics Integration Program AMERICAS_LOG
Atlas ATLAS
Aviation Services - Europe EURO-AVIATION
Benefits - US BENEFITS_US
Book of Business Standards - Europe EBBS
Business Controls BC_TOOLS
CAS Canada Documentation System CAS
CAS Information - Far East CAS_FE
CNS Customer Request System ACCOUNT
COMPUTER DOWNSIZING DOWNSIZE
Canada Employee Handbook - English PATHWAY
Canada Employee Handbook - French PARCOURS
Capital Program Reference System PROGRAM
Career Services Portfolio - U.S. CAREER_US
Center Of Control COC
Center of Control Reporting COCINFO
Closed User Group Administration - Ayr AYO-CUGADMIN
College Relations School Profiles - U.S. COLLEGE
Common Chart of Accounts CCOA
Common Data Population Reporting Guide CDPR
Communication Bulletin for Managers CBM
Commuter Transportation - U.S. COMMUTING
Compensation & Benefits Program (Restricted). COMP_BEN
Complex Business Model Accounts NATIONAL
Computer News - Far East NEWS_FE
Conversion Factors Package FACTORS
Corporate Digital Consulting Policies DCPOL
Corporate Finance Information Systems CFIS
Corporate Internal Audit AUDIT
Corporate Policies Manual CORP_POL
Corporate Standards Infobase CORP_STANDARDS
Country VTX Coordinators - Europe VTX_PRO
Currency Exchange Rates CURRENCY
Customer Services Administration DOC System CSAM
Customer Services System Engineering(CSSE)restrict CSSEINFO
Customer Services Systems Eng/VMS VAXclusters CSSEVMS
Customer Support Center - CXO USSDS
Customer Support for US Field USCSC
Customer and Account Lookup CALOOK
Customs Manual - Corporate CCM
DECTE Jobs Book DECTE_JOBS
DIBS Teleconferencing & Videoconferencing Services DIBS
DS Consulting Services - EUROPE CONSULT_SVC
DS Project Services - EUROPE PROJECTS
Data Management Source Catalog DATAMGR
Deaf/Hard of Hearing Services DEAF_SERVICES
Dectemp Programs TEMP
Delivery Planning Guide - Europe Sales & Mktg. DPG
Demand/Supply Information Services - (restricted) DSPLAN
Dependent Care Reimbursement Account DCRA_US
Desktop Marketing Infobase - U.S. DESKTOP
Digital Consulting Services CDR
Digital Idle Assets Listing (DIAL) System DIAL
Digital Idle Assets Listing - EUR DIAL_EUR
Digital Import Export Trade (DIET) DIET
Digital Investor Services Information/Processing IS
Digital Learning Services DLS
Digital Learning Services - Service Descriptions DLS_SD
Digital Library Network (DLN) Catalog-US DLNCATALOG
Digital Press Submission Process DIGITAL_PRESS
Digital Program Methodology DPM
Digital Quality Information System QUALITY
Digital Services Finance Policies - Corporate DSFPOL
Digital Solutions Library - U.S. REUSE
Digital Srvs. Logistics Part Information Catalog LOGPIC
Digital Technical Journal DTJ
Digital Telephone Network (DTN)/By Country DTN
Direct Marketing Services DMS
Direct Order Channels - U.S. DOC
Disability Programs - U.S. DISABILITY_US
Diversity Handbook - U.S. DIVERSITY_US
EASYnet Information Directory EASYNET
Economic Affairs News - Europe EEC_AFFAIRS
Education Investment Review Board (EIRB) News EIRB
Electronics Technology File (ETF) TECHFILES
Employee Assistance Program Counselor Listing EAP
Employee Involvement Information (DELTA) DELTA
Employee Locator Facility (ELF) ELF
Employee Purchase Program EPP
Employee Training Europe TRAINING_EU
End User Services - US EUS
Engineering Plan of Record POR
Engineering Prod Environ Info To Sales & Services SITE
Environment, Health and Safety EHS
Executive Events - Europe EE
Export Administration - Canada EAC
Export Reference Manual - Worldwide Trade ERM
External Research Program - CRA ERP
Fast Ship - Europe EURFASTSHIP
Fast Ship - GIA GIAFASTSHIP
Fast Ship - US FASTSHIP
Field Contracts Library - US CONTRACTS
Field Support - US/DIS USDISFS
Finance Information Standards FIS
Finance Policies - Corporate CORPFIN
Finance Policies - Europe EFP
Financial Management Center Capital Forms - NNE FMC
Fleet Administration - UK FLEET
Fleet Administration - US US_FLEET
Guidelines for Information Providers of EHQ & SR. GUIDE_VTX_IP
H.R Directory - US HRDIR_US
HR Trends Information TRENDS
Health Care Choices by Zip code - US HCCZ_US
Health Care Reimbursement Account HCRA_US
Human Resources - Canada HR
IM&T Audit - EUR DWAUDREV
IN-DEC Digital Services Reference Guide - US INDEC
ISO International Standards ISO
Information Management & Technology policies EURO_IM&T
Information Management and Technology IM&T
Information Security - Asia Pacific SECURITY_GIA
Information Security - Asia Pacific SECURITY_AP
Information Security - Corporate & U.S. SECINFO
Information Security - Europe SECURITY_EUROPE
Information Security - Sophia Antipolis, FRANCE SECURITY_VBO
Information Systems Business (ISB) MIGRATION
Installed Base Sales Information (IBSI) IBSI
Integrated Repository IR
Intel/SCO based integrated product set DECADVANTAGE
Internal Equipment Group (IEG)- US IEG
Internal Product Authorization Keys (IPAK) - U.S. PAK
International Business Guide (IBG) IBP
Interoperability Matrix for VMS/ULTRIX INTEROP
Inventory and Demand - Europe EUROINVENTORY
Job Descriptions -- Canada CJIS
Job Information System (JIS) - US JIS
Job Posting France JOB_FR
Job Postings -- Canada JOBS_CA
Jobs Book - Far East JOBS_FE
Jobs Book - UK JOBSUK
Jobs Book - US JOBS_US
Jobs Book Austria JOBS_AU
Jobs Book EHQ/SR JOBS_EHQ/SR
LIVE WIRE LIVEWIRE
Launch Support Database LSD
Law Department LAW
Law Department (Restricted Access) LAW2
Learning Planning System LEARNING
Library of US Country Business USCLIB
Literature Order System (LOS) LOS
Logistics - U.S. US_LOGISTICS
M&E Financial Controls MEMFIN
MAXCIM On Line Resource Exchange (MORE) MORE
MTS Information - Corporate Telecommunications MTS
Mail Procedures - US CORP-MAIL
Market Research & Analysis - EUR EMRA
Marketing Organization Charts - EUR ORG_MKTG_CTRY
Marketing Recognition Program MKT_RECOGNITION
Merchandising Ten Day Program - Europe TENDAY
Methods, Tools, & Training (MTT) NEW MTT
Mid West Financial Management Center MWFMC
Multivendor Customer Services - U.S. Policies CS_POLICY
Multivendor Customer Services Logistics - US US_MCSL
Multivendor Customer Services Management Documents MCSMGMT
Multivendor Customer Services SOP - U.S. US_SDSOP
Multivendor Customer Services Worldwide Policies MCSPOL
NAS Architecture Reference Manual NAS_ARCH
National Rotation/ Consignment Clearing House CLEARING_HOUSE
Network Product Business Unit NETWORK
Node Names to MTS Location NODE_LOCATION
Node Registration-IP (TCP/IP) IPREG
Northern New England Financial Management Center NNEFMC
Notes Conference Index (VAX(VENICE) NOTES_INDEX
ONSLIP - Europe ONSLIP_GEO
Option Module List CEO
Order Status Inquiry System - US ORDER_STATUS
Organization Charts - DS (Digital Services) - EUR ORG_DS
Organization Charts - Finance - EUR ORG_FIN
PC Interoperability Guide PCGUIDE
People Information - U.S. PI_US
Performance Management (merged with VTX LEARNING) PMP
Personnel Policy & Procedures Manual - US ORANGEBOOK
Policies - Europe EUROPOLICIES
Policies and Procedures - Credit Administration CREDIT
Policies and Procedures - Customer Administration CUST_ADMIN
Policies and Procedures - Export - US EXPORT
Policies and Procedures - Export Administration EXPORT_ADMIN
Policies and Procedures - Federal Government GOVERNMENT
Policies and Procedures - GIA GIA_POL
Policies and Procedures - Government Admin GOVT_ADMIN
Policies and Procedures - Sales - US SALES_POLICY
Policies and Procedures - Software Licensing SWPOL
Policies and Procedures - U.S. Systems Integration SI_POLICY
Policies, Procedures, and Practices - U.S. Field FIELD_POLICY
Price List - US PRICE
Product Hold - Europe (Restricted) EPH
Product Management - Canada PMG
Product Management Locator PMLOC
Product Manager's Infobase PM
Product Readiness Guideliness & Status READINESS
Product Service Managers Group Infobase PSMG
Profit Evaluation Tool Newsletter PET
Programs - U.S. USPROGRAMS
Project Reference Information System (PRISM) PRISM
Project Reference Inquiry and Reporting (PRISMINFO PRISMINFO
Property Disposition Center (PDC) Employee Store PDCSTORE
Purchasing - Corporate PVTX
Purchasing Administration - Canada PA_CAN
QPC - Quick Start Services for PC's QPC
RELEASE MANAGEMENT EUROPE RM_EUROPE
Reader's Choice PROFILE
Record Retention Schedule - Corporate DRIM
Regulatory Engineering REG_ENG
Release Management - US/DIS USDISREL
Relocation Policies - International INTER_RELO_POL
Research and Experimentation Tax Credit Manual R&E
Risk Management Manual RMO
SE Eng. Performance Mgmt & Developm't Planning Gde SE_HRDGUIDE
SOFTbase (TM) SOFTBASE
Sales Measurements - Worldwide WORLDWIDE_SALES
Sales Update - Europe SALES_UPDATE_EU
Selling Teams Performance/Recog. Programs - US USSMR
Service Center Operations Guide SERVICENTER
Siemens Nixdorf Information Systems - Germany SNI
Signature Authorization SIGA
Software Loan of Product System - U.S. SWLOAN
Software Product Information - ESSB ESSB
Software Tools Clearinghouse TOOLSHED
Software Usability Engineering (HUMAN) HUMAN
Software for Personal Computers PCSOFTWARE
South East Atlantic Financial Management Center SEAFMC
Space Reduction Program SPACE_REDUCTION
Standard and Poor's (restricted) S&P
Standards and Methods - Digital SMC
Storage Business Unit STORAGE
Sys., Appl. & Products in DataProcessing SAP
System Performance and Benchmark Information PERF
System performance and benchmark information BENCH
TSCA Compliance Chemical Validation TSCA
Technology Development Programs (TDP) - CRA TDP
Telcom Services - US USTEL
Telecom Business Controls Program - Corporate BCP
Telecomm Wide Area Terminal Network - Corporate WATN
Telephone Directory - Corporate TEL
Telex Codes TELEX
Territory Product Leadtime Guide - U.S. PSG
The TQM Integrator TQMI
Transportation - U.S. Area USAT
Travel - US TRAVEL
Travel Information - GIA GIATRAVEL
United Way Program - US UW_US
VMS Documentation VMSDOC
VOGON News Service VNS
VTX Registry REGISTRY
VTX Services - European Countries Access COUNTRY_EU
Videoconferencing Schedule VIDEOCONF_SCHED
Videotex Program - Corporate (CVP) CVP
Videotex Services P&P VIDEO
WATN Administration System WATN_AMER
WORLDWIDE TRADE TRADE
Work & Family WORK_FAMILY
Worldwide Network Operations Infobase WWNO
X.400 External Organisations Directory X400EXD
|
| 3875.7 | VTX is wonderfull | SPEZKO::RYEN | Rick Ryen MK01-2 | Mon May 15 1995 08:59 | 40 |
| I think VTX is wonderfull 1970's technology.
Consider these benefits.
Improves the users memory recall abilities...
by requiring you to remember large numbers of
cryptic keywords to access to data.
Increases reading comprehension...
by imposing almost no consistency in interface design, each
screen must be read in its entirety to learn how to navigate
to the next.
Encourages User self-sufficiency...
by frustrating users to the point where they must find
other creative methods of finding information.
Is backward compatible...
to an ever increasing amount of obsolete and out of date
information.
to the least common denominator of dumb terminal technology.
Is entertaining...
because after navigating thourgh countless screens, you never
know if the information that you seek will be relevent,
current, of even existent. This sense of suprise and mystery
has the full entertainment value only found in gambling.
Encourages social interaction amoung employees...
because users are more likely to talk to the person in
ajacent cubes than to seek out info in VTX.
|
| 3875.8 | Very Tedious eXperiences... | GLDOA::WERNER | Still crazy after all these years | Mon May 15 1995 10:05 | 31 |
| Wow, a good, old fashion blithering and blazing string. I love it.
RE. .7 - actually it's good 80's technology. I spent a good part of the
80's trying to sell VTX and developed a relatively complex demo
environment covering many possible uses for it.
I agree with earlier comments that VTX is only really as good as the
info providers that take care of it (and the people who design each VTX
application/page set that we all see). As a technology, VTX was pretty
good for the mid- to late-80's. By the late 80's there were newer,
client server information sharing things starting to come onto the
scene, under various headings, such as Groupware. There may still be a
place for a VTX-like service in an enterprise network environment, but
it probably should be relegated to some bookshelf-like reference
materials niche.
The broader and much more frustrating topic at work in this string
concerns the sorry state of the shoes on the shoemakers kids. Every
year for the past 15 or so, I've listened to someone from some senior
management level tell us how aware senior management is of our system
shortcomings and how hard someone back East is working to correct the
deficiencies. It's an old, familier tune and one that wears thin
relatively quickly. The latest responses are all pointing to the
implementation of SAP as the answer to many of these issues. Others
here have suggested also that the implementation of WWW Servers may
hold the key to improving information sourcing within Digital. Niether
of these address the marginal state of the infrastructure to support
productive use of these tools. We may well end up with HiNote Ultras on
one end and Alpha-based systems on the other and nothing in between.
-OFWAMI-
|
| 3875.9 | Rats away! re .7 | WELKIN::ADOERFER | Hi-yo Server, away! | Mon May 15 1995 10:52 | 56 |
| The flipside is the future is so wonderfull
Improves the users memory recall abilities...
by requiring you to remember large numbers of
cryptic URLS to access to data.
Increases reading comprehension...
by imposing almost no consistency in interface design, each
screen must be read in its entirety to learn how to navigate
to the next.
The basic VTX functions were NEXT PAGE, PREVIOUS PAGE,
BACKUP, GET AGAIN, CHOICE and FORM ENTER (Find and search)
The future gets rid of backup but adds history list,
scatters choices and forms with no consistency. Find is
local to your document only.
Encourages User self-sufficiency...
by frustrating users to the point where they must find
other creative methods of finding information.
The future tells you to wait, that your url isn't found,
or the server refuses to connect. Relax user, keep trying
user.
Is backward compatible...
to an ever increasing amount of obsolete and out of date
information.
The future has icons for "This page under construction"
to the least common denominator of dumb terminal technology.
as if there is no need for Lynx
Is entertaining...
because after navigating thourgh countless screens, you never
know if the information that you seek will be relevent,
current, of even existent. This sense of suprise and mystery
has the full entertainment value only found in gambling.
Offering millions of copies of "my favorite links" which are mostly
the same, the future's more popular sites ARE random URLs that DO
gamble on what it delivers.
Encourages social interaction amoung employees...
because users are more likely to talk to the person in
ajacent cubes than to seek out info in VTX.
Ah, sadly the future won't do this, as you'll be behind
your desk keeping up with this months beta browser +++, waiting
for a download or re-writing the next generation protocol.
Be sure to clear your cache before passing go
:-)
|
| 3875.10 | to delve further into the depths..... | NRSTAR::HORGAN | Tim Horgan | Mon May 15 1995 12:06 | 43 |
| Truly, the Web has many of the potential problems you have pointed out,
Bill. From our experience, for the Web to be as effective as it can be
within a large organization will require some amount of investment in
mechanisms and services to make it useful for the casual user. These tools
include:
- catalogs to find information (for example today Digital users can
use a range of tools including the Announcement Directory (1400
plus servers currently listed), at
http://lgp30.mro.dec.com/announce/pa-toc.html. There is also the
internal Web Server index (http://src-www.pa.dec.com/cgi-bin/dwi),
which is a powerful search tool. Outside of Digital there is
Yahoo (http://www.yahoo.com), with close to 40,000 entries.
- shared home pages which contain pointers of interest to a wide
range of people. Again Digital users have the advantage of having
access to The Web Pages (http://www-iu.mro.dec.com/public/front.html)
which contains an up-to-date list of all sorts of Web Servers
(companies on the Web, internal servers, technical, legal,
reference servers, etc.), and some sites and groups are creating
their own (e.g. Seminconductors).
- A Web Toolbox - e.g. http://www-iu.mro.dec.com/webtools/tools.html
- links to existing information - e.g. the Web - Integrated
Repository link being put in place as we speak.
- Web page guidelines - such as the work being done by Corporate
Communications to help people design consistent Web pages, or the
InfoCenter efforts at http://idu001.mro.dec.com/info/front.html.
Digital has invested in work to make the Web useful to its employees,
customers and partners. We have more work to do, and it will require
ongoing care and feeding to keep it going. But the investment is, IMHO,
well worth the increased access to information we all have.
I agree with you that the raw technology can cause problems, but that
should not preclude us from doing the work needed to make it work better.
In fact we have a very good start at that already.
Tim Horgan
(formerly of the Web Services Group)
|
| 3875.11 | | RTFM1::OSTMAN | Time - is what keeps everything from happening at once. | Mon May 15 1995 12:19 | 18 |
|
Well why not _try_ to change the direction this note is taking into
something positive by providing _constructive_ ideas on how to solve
the problems. After all we now know that some people at the TOP is
listening. I would belive that management is much more interested in
listens to how to solve the problem than flames...
In my oppinion we should focus on getting our information updated in a
timely manner (regardless of format, access method etc.). if it isn't
obvious that it is being updated, REMOVE IT. As I see it it's better that
what is available is KNOWN to be valid than that "EVERYTHING" is in the
system but maybe not up to date or even incorrect.
We also needs to make sure that the structure of information is somewhat
the same regardless of function or country of origin. So that it's easy
to navigate it regardless of where in the company you come from.
/Kjell
|
| 3875.12 | | TP011::KENAH | Do we have any peanut butter? | Mon May 15 1995 12:23 | 1 |
| WRT .11 -- who's WE?
|
| 3875.13 | | RTFM1::OSTMAN | Time - is what keeps everything from happening at once. | Mon May 15 1995 12:57 | 5 |
|
Anyone with write access to this notes conferense that has an idea
on how to improve the situation at hand (VTX/WWW), I suppose.
/Kjell
|
| 3875.14 | | TP011::KENAH | Do we have any peanut butter? | Mon May 15 1995 13:05 | 9 |
| In .11, you seem to be addressing the problem of keeping information in
VTX and WWW up-to-date. Well, most of the people complaining here are
the readers of that information, not the information providers. For
example, you mentioned removing out-of-date materials. Well, we aren't
the people who placed the information, so we can't remove it.
What you say is true (timely information is essential) but you're
preaching to the wrong choir.
andrew
|
| 3875.15 | can I get my job done? | TROOA::MSCHNEIDER | Another day ... another strategy | Mon May 15 1995 13:51 | 10 |
| Well VTX may not be perfect .... but now that IR is pretty much working
I can pretty much get my hands on all information that used to be
scattered all over the place. It made responding to an RFP last week a
little less painful a task. Don't know about you, but I get bored
waiting for all those sexy www pages to display on my PC.
Quite frankly I don't give a hoot whether it has the sexiest interface.
Bottom line for me is can I get at the information and complete the
task quickly. Same reason I have no problem with ALL-IN-1 ... that ought
to stir up another hornet's nest!!! ;^)
|
| 3875.16 | As John Arbuckle once said... | GLDOA::WERNER | Still crazy after all these years | Mon May 15 1995 13:59 | 20 |
| RE. .11 & .14
Ahhhh, but WE are the choir. That's the point of .11 and also the basic
problem that .14 is addressing. As long as the information provider
(updaters, whatever you want ot call the function) role is considered
to be an ad hoc add on duty, whether for some overworked secretary or
some product manager, the problem will persist. The very fact that we
view these info provider role as ad hoc says volumes about the "value"
that some level of management is putting on the information.
In some quraters there is a growing awareness that the ability of the
organization to access up-to-date and accurate information IS the
competitive edge. In fact WE sell that concept. WE just don't practice
it. IMHO WE could show an apparent 15-20% productivity increase in the
field organization solely through improvements in the systems that we
are forced to use just to do business. In times where WE are looking
for that next 2-3% improvement in COS, this kind of productivity
increase would be significant.
-OFWAMI-
|
| 3875.17 | | HDLITE::SCHAFER | Mark Schafer, Alpha Developer's support | Mon May 15 1995 14:04 | 4 |
| so it sounds like we want a Web interface to the IR, is that right?
What's gotta be done to get it, and who's doing it?
Mark
|
| 3875.18 | few are comitted to real information maintenance | ALFAXP::M_HYDE | From the laboratory of Dr. Jekyll | Mon May 15 1995 14:09 | 20 |
| .16 is headed in the right direction
*Maintenance* of information is the key to the whole discussion, and, I
suggest, the reason for the failure of most of our information systems.
No matter how good the information presentation tools are, if the
material is not maintained it's almost useless. Recognizing this has been
a problem with every information tool that I've used since I've worked
here - SID, STARS, VTX, TIMA, Notes, and even the Web. How many pages are
out there that were created with the initial burst of energy surrounding
the 'new toy' and have been untouched ever since.
No matter how you slice it, information maintenance is labor intensive.
You can make newer and better tools for managing the data, but in the
end, somebody has to do the work of sourcing, evaluating, and
re-evaluating the information. Until those responsible make a
committment to 'real' information management, these kinds of discussions
will continue - even when we have natural language, voice driven, fuzzy
logic, 3-D virtual reality, search, retrieval and presentation engines.
mark
|
| 3875.19 | it's in the format! | ICS::MORRISEY | | Mon May 15 1995 14:48 | 16 |
|
re: 0 - back to the beginning!\
The problem is not in the 'system'. The problem you are having
is with the information put into the system!
If the information were placed in the system with consideration
of the DIFFERENT ways that the end-user will try to find it, you'd
have a very different result (same system, just better input).
And has been observer, it takes TIME to do good input (formatting,
quality of material, updating, cross-referencing, etc.)
Doesn't matter whether it's a reference book, WWW, or VTX -
if it's well organized, you can find the info - if not, it becomes
a headache!
|
| 3875.20 | | ODIXIE::MURDOCK | eltico... | Mon May 15 1995 16:11 | 11 |
| Re: .19
>> The problem is not in the 'system'. The problem you are having is
>> with the information put into the system!
Yes and no,
By the "system" I was not referring to the "computer system". I was
referring to the policies and procedures (or lack thereof as in this
case) that are in place to assure that the information available is
valid, relevant, up to date, and easy to access....
|
| 3875.21 | OK... | ICS::MORRISEY | | Mon May 15 1995 17:19 | 20 |
|
>> The problem is not in the 'system'. The problem you are having is
>> with the information put into the system!
. Yes and no,
. By the "system" I was not referring to the "computer system". I was
. referring to the policies and procedures (or lack thereof as in this
. case) that are in place to assure that the information available is
. valid, relevant, up to date, and easy to access....
Ok; I generally think of a 'system' (in the context you mentioned)
as comprised of the hardware and sofware, as distinct from the
information content placed into the hardware/software.
Thus one can have a good system containing junk content, or a
junk system with good content, or even a good system with good content!
But I guess there's an area where informational organization becomes
part of both 'system' and 'content'.
|
| 3875.22 | | TINCUP::KOLBE | Wicked Wench of the Web | Tue May 16 1995 20:26 | 8 |
| After 6 years of trying to make management understand
that the tools weren't as important as the data I gave
up and joined a tools engineering group. On the plus
side, I do believe the message has finally gotten through
that we need to ***MAINTAIN*** the data but there is
still a lot of resistance to the amount of labor this
involves. Tools are sexier than data when it comes to
headcount. liesl
|
| 3875.23 | | HLFS00::CHARLES | so many restaurants, so little time | Wed May 17 1995 07:20 | 5 |
| Liesl,
You have to admit that the GUI for DSNlink V2 looks a lot better than
rows of data.
;-)
Charles
|
| 3875.24 | | DECWET::FARLEE | Insufficient Virtual um...er.... | Wed May 17 1995 14:18 | 16 |
| As an example of how content can be ignored to the detriment of all,
you may be familiar with VTX PAK, the internal PAK generator?
The product that I work on registered a new PAK some time back (months).
It was incorrectly set up in VTX PAK. (It is an OSF/1 product, and it
shows up under VMS, and comes out as a .COM file instead of as a shell
script).
We have been trying to get this corrected for a couple of months. It seems
that there are two groups somewhere squabbling about who should fund the
1/2 head it takes to keep VTX PAK updated. The end result is that
nothing is being done, and additionally, there is nobody to add new PAKS
to the VTX system! How many folks are getting screwed by this short-sighted
penny-pinching??
Kevin
|
| 3875.25 | Hold your horses.... | SHRMSG::DEVI | recycled stardust | Wed Jun 07 1995 10:47 | 44 |
| Okay - I'll bite.
VTX is not a relic of the 70's or 80's. Has the person complaining
used the latest windows client? Has he seen the integration of VTX
into TeamLinks? Has he used VTX on the Alpha?
The problem is that Digital is it's own worst enemy when it comes to
VTX. VTX has had the ability to display graphics, launch any binary file
format and do Boolean search queries for over two years, but hardly any
group has taken advantage of these capabilities. You can't blame the
product is no one uses it properly.
Also - the group I work for was set up over 10 years ago to address the
issue of making sure information in a VTX infobase was both up-to-date
and appeared in a consistent manner. We perform the information
provider and information systems management tasks for the business
owners. All they have to do is give us the data. But - guess what?
The people who own the information don't give us up-to-date stuff to
add to their infobases? Why? Ask them.
We've created updating tools that enable us to create and maintain VTX
infobases almost instantaneously thus eliminating one of the major
complaints against VTX. Our external customers love these page
processors, but all we hear internally is the continued whining of how
difficult it is to maintain VTX infobases. Soon they'll be a PC-based
information provider tool (we're field testing it now) and that will
eliminate another complaint against VTX.
And VTX engineering is actively working on blurring the distinction
between VTX and the Internet so users can utilize both products
together.
So - before we go throwing out the baby with the bath water, let's try
using what we've got, to it's fullest advantage, and then make a
decision. Bill and Dennis both made good points about the problems
surrounding WWW - a new covering doesn't make inherent problems
disappear. Maintaining data integrity is going to be around whether
the shell is VTX or WWW or something else.
I've got my asbestos suit on. Fire as you will.
Gita Devi
Consultant
Information Delivery/VTX Services
|
| 3875.26 | | ATLANT::SCHMIDT | E&RT -- Embedded and RealTime Engineering | Wed Jun 07 1995 11:15 | 14 |
| Gita:
Quality of the data aside...
What can VTX do that WWW can not? Why should DEC be using
a non-standard client (VTX) when a standard client (Netscape,
etc.) now exists? And the standard client is growing in cap-
ability *MUCH FASTER* than VTX.
I find navigating a zillion web pages, all developed *INDI-
VIDUALLY*, to be much easier than navigating the four or five
VTX infobases that I routinely use. Why is this?
Atlant
|
| 3875.27 | Some answers | SHRMSG::DEVI | recycled stardust | Wed Jun 07 1995 17:17 | 37 |
| I'm entering the following anonymously :-) The responder is a bit tired of
having to constantly repeat the same information over and over again, but
if you want even more information, then please contact me off-line or take a
look at the other notes in this conference or in the INTERNET_TOOLS
conference in which this issue has already been thoroughly addressed.
Gita
-------------------------------------------------------
>What can VTX do that WWW can not?
DECnet transport
Server to Server communication
Session control (with the user still in control more than connect or not)
"Slightly" better server administration
Ability to halt any session at any time
Security modifiable without re-starting the server
Client to server and server to server failover if remote is not
available.
I'd say it's a toss up about application integration. WEB has CGI
and scripts, VTX doesn't have the start-up overhead and can
be actual executable images...
VTX also has it's "submit form" function in one consistant spot (in the
control bar)
Web browsers can put that anyplace with almost any presentation.
>I find navigating a zillion web pages, all developed *INDI-
>VIDUALLY*, to be much easier than navigating the four or five
>VTX infobases that I routinely use. Why is this?
You have a high speed link? You never ran across an ISMAP? :-)
A choice in vtx protocol can be no longer than 44 bytes. Are
there any pages in web less than (for example) 44000 bytes?
In this sense, VTX is orders of magnitude more efficient per operation.
(You might be thinking of IR. It's a really poor VTX application.
>> (Gita's comments: That's being very generous)
It would be much better more native web)(or re-written VTX)
|
| 3875.28 | weak up guys, even VTX would be best in class... | NAMIX::jpt | FIS and Chips | Wed Jun 07 1995 20:06 | 94 |
| >I'm entering the following anonymously :-) The responder is a bit tired of
>having to constantly repeat the same information over and over again, but
Yeah, I can uderstand this as this discussion has been going on
in 4-5 connferences.
I like few things in VTX:
- better support for terminal clients than most terminal web
browsers offer
- quite good performance, quite low overhead in protocol
- some of the adminstration tools
- CBR engine, which is _great_ and would be better if it had right
language variants
But these things are _NOT_ enough to make it succesfull! Customers
have chosen WWW, and they don't see added value enough to use
VTX or mixed VTX/WWW environments. If we focus on competing
against WWW with VTX, then I feel (IMHO) that we're putting our
engineering and marketing(?) effort to wrong place. And we can't
avoid that customers see VTX and WEB as competing solutions.
What is _sure_ for now, is the fact that WWW authoring tools
will be next software "boom" when customers see that Internet
Assistant (or Assasin ;) is not enough, but we site management
takes _much_ more effort. Tools like we have for VTX would be
extreamly useful if they could be used to manage HTML and
SGML documents and if these tools would integrate well with
Internet Assistant like utilities.
We did _very_ fancy VTX/CBR based application for customer about 1.5
years ago. Today we would do the same with WWW + separate CBR, as
we would loose the bid if we'd offer VTX, even we (and customer) know
that many technical details are better suited to the use in VTX than
in WWW, customer would be ready to pay more to get technically speaking
weaker product instead of "proprietary" VTX!
Now the techie-bit-nit-oriented-argumenting-competition ;-) ...
> >What can VTX do that WWW can not?
> DECnet transport
Less and less customers are using (or DEPENDENT on) DECnet transport
ONLY, most DECnet customers here for example are running TCP/IP
also.
> Server to Server communication
Even it's not budled with WEB servers, it's quite easy to implement
with correct tools and cgi interface.
> Session control (with the user still in control more than connect or not)
Can't deny that...
> "Slightly" better server administration
> Ability to halt any session at any time
> Security modifiable without re-starting the server
I agree with these, but restarting server isn't major issue in many
cases, and what VTX lacks and Netsite has is strong authentication
and encryption when needed.
> Client to server and server to server failover if remote is not
> available.
True, but if you need high availability, you will propably use
some sort of clustering which can be used to solve this.
>In this sense, VTX is orders of magnitude more efficient per operation.
Yes it is, but:
- Web supports multimedia out of the box
- there will be much more efficient HTML implementation soon
- client and proxy cacheing reduces this overhead now
>(You might be thinking of IR. It's a really poor VTX application.
Couldn't agree more !!!
Even VTX would be technically far better than WWW, if customers don't buy it,
it will be hard to make it real success. We should learn finally: software
markets have changed radically! Desktop products dominate computing, windows
clients are must, and all SW houses who are serious with this business
understand the change. All major players in their own arena are distributing
their evaluation/beta/net kits through Internet and catching the fish that
way. Same vendors also recognize the shift that has happened in SW markets
and are making re-adjustements to get The Volume needed to make their
products succesfull !!!
Best regards,
-jari
|
| 3875.29 | | RUSURE::EDP | Always mount a scratch monkey. | Thu Jun 08 1995 12:31 | 22 |
| What is the point of parading a list of VTX's features? One could as
easily claim that a C compiler enables you to display graphics, launch
any binary file format, and do Boolean search queries. But it is
harder to do those things with a C compiler than with Netscape. The
mere fact that the features are there is not sufficient.
You can't sell a product by berating customers, internal or external,
for not recognizing its benefits. If the customers aren't buying,
THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE PRODUCT. Maybe it is not the
features. May it is the user interface. Maybe it is the difficulty of
use or set-up or maintenance. Maybe it is bugs. Maybe it is just the
feeling it conveys. But if customers do not find the product is
useful, SOMETHING is wrong with it.
Stop yelling at the customers. Find the problem and fix it.
-- edp
Public key fingerprint: 8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86 32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.
|
| 3875.30 | Just provide a pointer to .tar file | HELIX::SONTAKKE | | Thu Jun 08 1995 12:54 | 4 |
| Where do I find vtx binaries for Digital UNIX under TCP/IP with all of the
features?
- Vikas
|
| 3875.31 | | NOTIME::SACKS | Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085 | Thu Jun 08 1995 13:49 | 4 |
| > If the customers aren't buying,
> THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE PRODUCT.
Or the way it's being sold. (Not that I think that's the case here.)
|
| 3875.32 | | DECWET::FARLEE | Insufficient Virtual um...er.... | Thu Jun 08 1995 13:49 | 23 |
| Re: .29
While I'm not a huge VTX fan, I think that Eric missed a point there...
The old theory of "if you build a superior product, the people will come"
or "If people aren't buying, the product is at fault" has been discredited
for some time now. The missing piece is marketing.
Engineering and marketing are BOTH required for a product to be successful.
Both are necessary, and neither by itself is sufficient.
One of the problems that VTX seems to suffer from is lingering bad impressions
created by earlier versions of the product. I heard the implementors claiming
that they HAVE recognized the product's failings, and HAVE done something about
it. Unfortunately, many of us made up our minds about VTX years ago...
If VTX is to continue, it needs to learn from one of the Web's strengths:
It is incredibly simple to provide and update content on the Web. Sure, you
can get into complex scripting and search engines, etc. but I've seen Web pages
put up by elementary school students that look respectable. If VTX were that
easy to set up/maintain from the provider's standpoint, we probably wouldn't
have so much stale data laying around in VTX infobases.
Kevin Farlee
|
| 3875.33 | right | SHRMSG::DEVI | recycled stardust | Thu Jun 08 1995 14:02 | 22 |
| Thanks, Kevin -
Contrary to what some people think, VTX is still selling to our
customer base, despite the lack of marketing and selling that Digital
doesn't do!
And - as I said in my earlier post, we now have tools that make the
creation and maintenance of VTX infobases very very simple.
But - as you said, old impressions die hard. Many of the infobases that
are still around have had their support people TFSO'd and the groups
responsible for the content have done nothing about it. Probably many
of the groups no longer exist either. But - you can't blame VTX/the
product for that situation. The fact that the servers are still
running just shows you how robust and reliable the product is :-)
The Corporate VTX Program Office is in the process of trying to clean
up the Corporate VTX Library, but when contact names listed for VTX
infobases are no longer valid, the task becomes time-consuming and
convoluted.
Gita
|
| 3875.34 | | PLAYER::BROWNL | Tyro-Delphi-hacker | Fri Jun 09 1995 06:09 | 11 |
| Until VTX is as easy to use and Netscape or Mosaic, I'll still think
it's a dreadful product. The data underneath is almost irrelevant, if
it's a pig to get at it. Make a Mosaic-like viewer for VTX, with
URL-like access points to the data, and people will use it. However,
HTML ain't so hard, Mosaic and Netscape already exist; in other words,
the world has passed VTX by, and I doubt it's worth the investment in
trying to catch up.
Just my opinion as a user.
Laurie.
|
| 3875.35 | | SCHOOL::NEWTON | Thomas Newton | Fri Jun 09 1995 08:34 | 1 |
| I'll put up with the VTX user interface to get the data underneath.
|
| 3875.36 | nonmousebased terminals | JOKUR::FALKOF | | Fri Jun 09 1995 09:10 | 3 |
| what if the user does not have a mouse-based system and must rely on a
dumb terminal? are lynx and other character cell browsers simpler to
use than VTX?
|
| 3875.37 | Are we all PC ? NO! | BBPBV1::WALLACE | dtn 841 3425 | Fri Jun 09 1995 09:18 | 7 |
| That's an excellent point. Within Digital and within our potential
customer base there are still a very large number of people who are
stuck with 24x80 terminals for the foreseeable future. I find Lynx
unusable, though I quite like Mosaic. I haven't got anything to use
Netscape on. I use VTX for stuff like IR; it's OK (but it could be a
lot better, as others have already said). But Lynx would be a definite
step for the worse, in terms of user interface.
|
| 3875.38 | | ATLANT::SCHMIDT | E&RT -- Embedded and RealTime Engineering | Fri Jun 09 1995 10:13 | 19 |
| > Within Digital ... there are still a very large number of people
> who are stuck with 24x80 terminals for the foreseeable future.
And therein lies a big part of our problem. We're claiming to
build the data systems that our customers will use in the next
millenium, but our vision is hobbled by the fact that so many
of us are using data systems based on 1970s technology.
Character cell = Buggy whip.
If we can make money selling it (and I know we still can),
then, by all means, sell it. But the graphical interface is
the common currency of applications design these days. We
ought to aggressively invest in our own infrastructure so
we no longer need to hobble our data systems down to the
character cell level. Then obsolete technology like VTX
could be put out to pasture.
Atlant
|
| 3875.39 | | SCHOOL::NEWTON | Thomas Newton | Fri Jun 09 1995 10:18 | 2 |
| I agree. There is still a small but profitable market for buggy whips, you
know!
|
| 3875.40 | High tech buggy whip. | KAOM25::WALL | | Fri Jun 09 1995 13:39 | 8 |
| Hmmmm.
Buggy Whip = Low tech intrument used to motivate animal into motion.
I suppose that makes the PC an electric cattle prod!?!
r
|
| 3875.41 | | SCHOOL::NEWTON | Thomas Newton | Fri Jun 09 1995 15:16 | 2 |
| Macintosh = gentle leather harness, easy to use and operate, but you
are still being pulled by horses, not by an engine!
|
| 3875.42 | | MU::porter | | Fri Jun 09 1995 15:29 | 9 |
| > Buggy Whip = Low tech intrument used to motivate animal into motion.
Well, that's a DEC-style description. However, if you want
to sell one, you'd better say
- Uses proven technology
- Enhances productivity
- Encourages goal-driven behaviour
- etc etc
|
| 3875.43 | ? | DPDMAI::EYSTER | Livin' on refried dreams... | Fri Jun 09 1995 15:33 | 1 |
| I thought we just had to use channels... :^]
|
| 3875.44 | | SCHOOL::NEWTON | Thomas Newton | Fri Jun 09 1995 16:04 | 2 |
| We have to invent our own channels, and market both them and the goods
sold through them appropriately... :-)
|
| 3875.45 | Further down the rat hole. | A1VAX::GUNN | I couldn't possibly comment | Fri Jun 09 1995 17:46 | 14 |
| Re: .40 et seq.
What's all this about low tech !!!
I have a buggy whip made out of space age materials - carbon fibre.
It's much lighter than a traditional whip and therefore can apply more
motivation with less effort.
I can see it now - the DECwhip AXP Model 195/30 industrial strength
standards conformant clich� ridden equine motivator.
It's late on Friday afternoon :-)
|
| 3875.46 | | SCHOOL::NEWTON | Thomas Newton | Fri Jun 09 1995 18:11 | 36 |
| Adding technology to the rat hole...
Suppose we compare computers to cars, and software (OS + applications) to
gas.
Gas (all SW):
DOS/Windows = Exxon
Macintosh = Shell
Unix = Texaco
VMS = Chevron
NeXTstep = Amoco
... ...
Users don't want elimination of choice - they do want "any gas to run in any
car".
Styling/Paint/UI/COntrols
Windows - car
Macintosh - car
NeXT GUI - minivan, common focus w/car on usability, driveability
X Windows - truck w/no air, radio
DOS/DCL/sh/sh/csh/ksh = 18-wheeler with manual transmission; special
driving license / training required; needed by some
professionals (may the best 18-wheeler win).
Inflicted on some poor souls who only want to buy gas.
The way the functions are priced and sold could be improved. Right now, an
AlphaStation is like a $30,000+ pickup truck that would sell better for $10K
to $20K. A Power Mac is like a Ford that is only sold through Mercedes and
Volvo dealers, etc.
Opening up business practices allows more effective marketing of each type of
universal vehicle to its most likely and loyal customers.
Tom
|