Conference 7.286::digital

    We've had folks working with Linus for a while.  
    
    Mark
    

    the 'reply' from Digital that *it* would not be making the workstations
    is not inconsistent with Linux being available on Alpha.
    
    

	check out NLFDC::LINUX-USERS thread 77.*...

	_kelley

    Besides - the phrase "Linux-based workstations" is meaningless.
    We'll sell you an Alpha workstation, you run what you like on it,
    
    				Steve

>>>We'll sell you an Alpha workstation, you run what you like on it,

There is a number of customers that would like to run OpenVMS or Unix on 
the Multia Alpha system, but a "management decision" prevents this from 
happening.

I think we still sell only "packages" with hardware+OS, which is a model 
that has a number of problems.


						-Paul

    Multia is not sold as a workstation, but as a product with specific
    functionality.  While I agree that this is artificial, for the most
    part the products we sell as "workstations" will run any OS which will
    support it.  (The TurboChannel Alpha workstations won't run NT.)
    
    The point is that if Linux happens to run on a Digital workstation,
    we don't necessarily have to build "Linux-based workstations".
    
    				Steve

	I suspect that Linux will primarily installed on Alpha clone
	systems. I saw one recently that was in a PC enclosure with
	all PC parts. Pretty neat actually.

							mike

    As far as I know, we don't sell workstations without O/S software of
    some sort included - OpenVMS, Digital UNIX or NT.  So, if you want to
    run Linux on an Alpha, you have to pay for an O/S that you don't really
    need....  That seems to be the issue.  
    
    

    Probably a silly question, but doesn't each OS require different
    firmware? Ie a hardware upgrade to change from one OS to another?
    
    Mike.

On the new AlphaStation 400 4/233s we just got in, you can switch back and
forth between
  o  NT PALcode with the ARC console, and
  o  VMS/OSF PALcode with the SRM console
by simply:
  o  selecting the appropriate menu item under the ARC console
  o  changing a console environment variable at the SRM console prompt
with no firmware upgrade associated with the PALcode switch.  Pretty slick!

re: .9

>    Probably a silly question, but doesn't each OS require different
>    firmware? Ie a hardware upgrade to change from one OS to another?
    
There's no reason at all that that should be necessary.  You don't need
different firmware to run OSF/1 (whoops, I mean Digital Unix) or OpenVMS
on Alpha or to run  Windows, NT, OS/2 or Linux on Intel 80xxx or Pentium.

-Hal

    I thought there were, at least, differences between the PAL code for
    DIGITAL/Unix and OpenVMS ?  I believe NT needed even more PAL support.
    
    Bill
    

Linux and NetBSD both use the Digital UNIX PAL code.

RE: .12

You're right there is different PAL code for OpenVMS .vs. Digital 
UNIX but both are contained within the standard firmware. WNT is 
different, its PAL code is on the system disk and gets sucked in when 
the system is booted.

- John.

    Linux already boots on EBPxx board today.  The work is being done
    inside Digital.
    
    - Vikas

I heard the we are actually required by law to offer hardware-only systems 
for sale, but discourage it by obscuring the part number.

Is this fact or fiction?


							-Paul

    re: Note 3829.16 by STAR::jacobi.zko.dec.com::JACOBI
    
    This is fact. You won't find these (e.g. 7KAMA-XA) in the SOC, and
    you have jump thru hoops to get 'em, but they must be made available.
    
    Ken....
    

    Okay, folks... here it is straight from the horse's mouth.  I'm the one
    who kicked off the Linux/Alpha effort from within Digital.
    
    With respect to being able to buy systems without an OS... suffice it
    to say that we're working as hard as we can to make this a reality.
    Today, the best way to do this is to buy a "NoName" motherboard
    (AXPPci/33) with firmware but no OS, and build your system around
    that.
    
    We are trying to target *all* PC-class Alpha systems with the Linux
    port.  The marketing side (e.g. coming up with competitively-priced
    system configurations) is another matter, and we've got folks working
    on that too.
    
    As far as firmware is concerned: most Digital platforms sport two
    sets of firmware: one for NT, and one for VMS/OSF (there are actually
    two versions of PALcode on the VMS/OSF ROM, and you use a PAL call
    to select which one you want to use).  We decided to use the OSF
    firmware for Linux because it was available and it offered reasonable
    support for UNIX-like environments.
    
    We have a WEB page in the works that will answer a lot of your
    questions.  When I get it hooked up I'll post the URL.
    
    --jim
    

    And we have got a whole bunch of "Noname" boards for immediate
    delivery.  Come on down!
    
    - Vikas

	There are two points about seperate availability of OSs and
	hardware.  The first is that the SRM console is the piece
	of code that sets up the system, loads the appropriate OS from
	disk and swaps to whatever PALcode the OS requires.  This is a
	large and complex piece of code that needs porting to each new
	platform that we build.  This is all fine and dandy for VMS and
	OSF but not so good for Linux as we, Digital, both charge for
	this software and bundle it with an OS that we also charge for.
	I'm working on a freeware solution for this.  The second point
	is that by having a clearer distinction between our h/w and s/w
	(that is, by not bundling it together) we are helping third party
	clone vendors sell their systems (and, therefore, more Alphas).

	For me, one lure of Linux is that it will run well in relatively
	small amounts of memory (8Mbytes text, 16Mbytes XWindows we hope)
	and on 21066 based systems.  The 233MHz 21066 should be just fine
	for Linux.  The second lure is that there are thousands of programmers
	out there just itching to add new device drivers to it - this will
	help our video and comms chip sales.

	Dave

So, if I were looking to order one of the AXPpci-33 boards,
are the EBP20-** part numbers the ones to use, or is there some
other magic incantation?

I looked through Vikas' Web page, and couldn't find any 
part numbers anywhere...

Kevin

        MODEL
        NUMBER      DESCRIPTION                      LIST
              
   1    EBP10-AA    Alpha PCI Motherboard AT/NT               620.00
   2    EBP10-BA    Alpha PCI Motherboard PS2/NT              620.00
   3    EBP10-BB    Alpha PCI Motherboard PS2/OSF             620.00 <<<<<<<
   4    EBP20-AA    Alpha PCI Board AT/NT/Chip              1,170.00

   5    EBP20-BA    Alpha PCI Board PS2/NT/Chip             1,170.00
   6    EBP20-BX    Alpha PCI Board PS2/OSF1/Chip           2,165.00
   7    EBP20-BZ    Alpha PCI Board PS2/OSF1/Chip           1,865.00

   1    21066-AA    Low-Cost ALPHA CPU, 166 MHz               580.00 <<<<
   2    21066-AB    233MHZ INTEGRATED ALPHA CPU               602.00
   3    21066-CB    100MHZ INTEGRATED ALPHA CPU               293.00
   4    21066-SA    Sample kit for 21066-AA                   743.00

    Depending on where in the world you are, Digital may not want to take
    your EBP-xx order direct. Some countries take these parts off the price
    list to *force* the business through distribution channels. Even so,
    you shouldn't pay more than list...
    
    The Digital Semiconductor AlphaPC64 (?) 21064-based boards also seem to
    be finding their way to the end user market _as boards_ (rather than as
    parts of systems, which I believed was the original intention). These
    are what Aspen, etc use in their AlphaClones.
    
    regards
    john

>    The Digital Semiconductor AlphaPC64 (?) 21064-based boards also seem to
>    be finding their way to the end user market _as boards_ (rather than as
>    parts of systems, which I believed was the original intention). These
>    are what Aspen, etc use in their AlphaClones.

Any idea where?  (There are people that might be interested in a competitive
motherboard.  People assembling their own systems that are looking at 90+MHz
x86 motherboards are probably more interested in a 21064 or even a 21164
than a 21066...  If Digital is pushing Alpha as "open", these should be made
available.)

	*All* of the boards that Digital Semiconductor have made
	(Alpha and otherwise) have been evaluation boards.  The
	design details for these are freely available and the boards
	are usually relatively expensive and low volume - for use
	by customers in their debugging.  Most of the early boards
	(eb64, eb66) were just too expensive to build cheaply enough
	for a mass market.  The original intention was that customers
	would use these as templates and design their own boards.
	This has not proven so and the last few boards are meant
	to be directly cloned.  AlphaPC64 is an example of such a board.
	It is part of the Alpha Now campaign and has been offered to
	a number of vendors to produce.  So, yes, it will be available
	externally and no, it is not meant to be sold by Digital as 
	a system.

	Now, as for Linux on it, yes, that is one of our target boards
	(the others are EB66+ and Noname).   We are focussing in on
	just those boards for the next 3 or so months; after that we
	will branch out and EV5 is certainly a possibility.

	Dave

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Subject: 500+ people attend Linus Torvalds talk 
Date: Thu, 18 May 95 12:44:47 -0400
From: "Jon 'maddog' Hall, USG Product Management" <[email protected]>
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A "standing room only" crowd of people attended the Linux talk at MIT last
evening.

The meeting started off with a raffle of free Linux and UNIX books and CDROMS
donated by Quantum Books, O'Reilly, Digital Press and InfoMagic.  Announcements
were made thanking the sponsoring bodys:

	o DECUS
	o Digital Equipment Corporation
	o Boston Computing Society
	o MIT
	o Greater New Hampshire Linux User's group

Jim Paradis did an excellent presentation on Digital's role with the Alpha
Linux port, and demoed the current state of the port.

The main *star* of the evening was Linus Torvalds, who presented some technical
facts about the differences between the Intel Linux system and the Alpha Linux
system.  Linus (as always) had many good things to say about the Alpha
architecture and Digital's help in doing the port.  His presentation was
interactive, and he answered all the questions quickly, precisely and with
a lot of good humor.  In some cases he openly admitted that some things were
from personal preference, and told people that if they did not like them, they
should go off and write their own operating system (which got lots of approving
laughter from the audience).  Linus spoke (and answered questions) for about 90
minutes.

Afterwards a group of about 50 people went to the Cambridge Brewing Company,
where the party was still going strong at Midnight.  I had to leave due to
the subways closing down (and because I am not quite as young as I used to be).

The Boston Computer Society did an excellent job of getting the room,
advertising on the Web, setting up for video tape, getting door prizes and
handling the crowd.  Even without the help of the Boston Globe (who refused
to even acknowledge the event), people came from as far away as Rhode Island.
The people in the Boston Computer Society that worked hard to put this together
are legion, but I would especially like to thank John Abreau, Gerald Feldman,
and Pam Bybell.

I had a chance to advertise a college-hire position in Digital Marketing for
a technical marketing person, and have already received four inquiries which
I will now follow up, as well as four new (and still coming in) additions to
the Greater New Hampshire Linux User's Group mailing list.

An interesting and fun time was had by all.

md

    The signs in that building (re the MIT presentation), like on
    every single place you had to make a direction choice was MUCH
    appreciated. Depending on where you entered the building/complex
    you could have a pretty long walk to that auditorium and they
    had the way marked beautifully.
    
    And for a guy who has a rep for being really shy, Linus is a very
    witty and interesting speaker. It was a very nice evening and rarely
    does one hear the Alpha talked about in such glowing terms.
    
    Charlie

Can somebody provide a pointer for the synopsis of the event and the talk?

    
    To follow up on this thread, the Multi hardware without software is
    being sold by several NH resellers and others elsewhere in the world.
    Its being referred to as the universal desktop box and most of the
    resellers are offering to install Linux for $50-100.
    
    You won't find a link to this on the any of the typical entry pages
    to digital.com, but check out http://www.digital.com:80/.i/info/udb/

    How much can one expect to pay for one of these boxes?

    
    One of the resellers (NekoTech) sells the 24Meg 166MHz model for
    $1999 plus $89 for Linux installed.
    
    								- Mac 

    For what it's worth, a UK Linux distributor is in the process of POSIX
    certifying and Single Unix Specification branding for his version of
    Linux. This will be quite an achievement. A 64-bit Linux, which allows
    you to tick all the relevant boxes on a government or EEC procurement.