Conference 7.286::digital

    Suggest you color code the keys to assist in learning how to type.
    
    I ended up doing this with magic marker: painted fingernails and
    keys.  Sarah, 8, still tries to use the correct fingers when typing.
    
    Diana Campbell
    
    P.S. I like this idea a lot!

    
    Suggest you use the Macintosh keyboard. That is is *predominant* KB
    in the grade schools, and the one the kids are most familar with.
    
    If Toys R Us is actually going to do this, we may want to do a MAC
    clone. And I agree, this could be very big business. Both of my small
    ones prefer the MAC human interface to my Windows PC hands down.
    
    My 1.9987654 cents
    
    		the Greyhawk

There is at least one keyboard of this type already on the market - perhaps
more.  Large, color coded keys, easy to use directional buttons, integrated
mouse (trackball, I think).

				Steve

    Some of the folks from the Adaptive Technology space may have some
    insights. We should be aware of software as well as hardware, however.

    Kiddie keyboards already exist.   I've seen them advertised (somewhere,
    I read PC Mag, PC Computing, Windows Sources, Home PC, etc.).   I also
    saw a kid-sized mouse (about 75% normal size) at Target the other day.
    
    Features of a kid-centric PC I'd like to see (using my 6 and 3 year
    olds as reference):
    
    Spill-proof keyboard
    
    CD jukebox to keep the kids hands off the disks
    
    Subliminal messages "Clean your room"  "Brush your teeth" "Take care
    of Dad when he gets old" flashed on the screen.  :-)
    
    

    Ideas are very welcome.  Thanks!  
    
    Some have suggested single unit systems with Monitor, Keaboard and CPU
    all in a colorful single unit.  Red, Blue, green....Power Ranger
    logos....
    
    Software built in and targeted for different age groups.  On the box it
    would suggest "3-6 year old". 

>>    I've seen them advertised (somewhere,
>>    I read ... Home PC... ).

It was an article in Home PC about kiddie keyboards.  Some of the
characteristics of different types included alphabetical ordering of the
letters, lack of function keys, big keys, bright colors, etc.

RE: .7

>It was an article in Home PC about kiddie keyboards.  Some of the
>characteristics of different types included *ALPHABETICAL ORDERING OF THE
>LETTERS*, lack of function keys, big keys, bright colors, etc.

Please, don't do that to the poor kids!

QWERTY may be a lousy pattern for a keyboard (no flames please), but it is the
standard whether we like it or not.  If you teach kids one pattern when they
are small, having them switch over to another pattern when they get big
enough for a "real" keyboard will drive them **NUTS**!

My daughter learned to type on a QWERTY keyboard with one of those simple
kiddie word-processor programs when she was 6.  You know, lots of flash and 
not a lot of power.  She later graduated to using Word for Windows when she
was doing papers for 2nd and 3rd grade, because the kiddie word-processor
just didn't have the capabilities she needed.  It did big fonts and color
graphics ok, but importing that Excel spreadsheet was just too hard.  We 
both noticed that she kept trying to use the features from the kiddie program
in Word, and it drove her nuts trying to map her knowledge to the new system.

My son learned to type on the same QWERTY keyboard when he was 5 (he saw his
sister playing on the computer and wanted to do the same).  But I started 
him on Word for Windows.  He is now pounding out stories and school papers
and has no problem learning new features.

If you teach kids something early enough, they will retain it better than
if you give them a "simpler" tool that they will have to un-learn later.

IMHO.

-- Ken Moreau
to use

    I also agree with Ken.  Keep it simple, but keep it consistent.
    
    Bill
    
    BTW - QWERTY was developed to SLOW people down.  Secretaries who earned
    a living by typing FAST were causing jamming their typewriters.
    
    Hows it go - First in, Best dressed gets to set the standard - ?

    re: .10 
    
    Urban myth. The QWERTY layout evolved because of jamming problems with
    ABCD layouts but the idea was not to slow down the typist but to put
    some mechanical separation between the keys that were frequently used
    one after another so they could be struck in quick succession without
    jamming.

  Diana, can you come over and do *MY* keyboard?  Anybody who's ever
  watched me type falls over laughing! :-)

  Meanwhile, a few bits of feedback:

  $ SET RELIGION=ON

   ( o The unified Mac desktop is much easier to effectively teach
       than The Program manager + The File Manager. Some of this
       advantage may disappear with Windows99. )

  $ SET RELIGION=OFF

     o A single-box system is probably far more appropriate for
       kids: No cables, no setup/integration, no opportunity for
       taking it apart. Apple and IBM both sell single-box solutions
       very succesfully in this market.

     o Color and speed are essential. A CD-ROM is essential.

     o *DON'T* do a non-standard keyboard. The original "Speak and
       Spell" was ABC, but the follow-on product from TI switched
       to a QWERTY keyboard. It may be weird, but it's standard.

     o Definitely highlight the modifier keys (<Shift>, <Caps Lock>,
       <Control>, <Option>, <Alt> and <Command>.)

     o Highlight the "special" keys (<Delete>, <Escape>)

     o Consider highlighting the vowels

                                   Atlant


P.S.: Oh yes -- I nearly forgot -- provide a CD-ROM that contains the
      entire software package, and make it re-installable with a single
      (or very few) clicks.

  Regarding age level recommendations: These are useful, it's also handy to
  stuff labelled as "appropriate for 1st to 3rd grade [reading/math 
  level/curriculum]" - especially for kids who are outside the typical age for
  their level. 
		Helen

    Suggest that you also talk with David Marques at RDAXP::marques
    regarding these issues. He; has been working with some upper elementary
    grade students ( 4-5-6) at the McCarthy Towne School in Acton --mostly
    to do with Internet work and collaborative computing, but he would be
    a good resource in general for kids and computing and may have some
    insights to offer witrh regard to this initiative. Good luck. Sounds
    interesting. Hope we win the business!
    Bruce  

Whatever you do, please make sure the skill level is calculated appropriately.
Seven or eight years ago, I was looking at one of the early kids laptop teaching
computers at a toy store.  It said it was for ages 5 - 10.  Since my daughter
was 5, I got it.  When she opened her birthday present, she got all excited
and we put the batteries in, turned it on, and decided to try "Simple Math".
The first problem was "74 + 39 = ?".  That may have been "Simple Math" for a
10-year old, but not for my daughter.

Bob

    What ever you do, make sure you have software lined up for the box. 
    Good education software is what sells hardware in this market.  Apple
    still sells Apple IIGS systems to elementary schools because of the
    plethora of available educational software.  My wife teaches
    Kindergarten, and her classroom has an old Apple II and a new
    (as of last year) IIGS.  Other classrooms in her building have
    either IBM PCs or other Apple IIs.  There's not a Mac to be found.
    
    It has only been in the last year or so that IBM PC educational
    titles have started to match numbers with Apple II for early
    elementary (at least based on my informal paging through a couple
    of educational software catalogs that my wife has received.)
    
    FWIW, there is a special keyboard available for educational use on 
    Apple II systems called the Muppet (as in Sesame Street) keyboard.  
    Certain educational programs require it.  I can't remember what
    it looks like, but it was someone else's answer to the question
    you raise.
    
    
    Good luck,
    Jim

    My son is in .0's target range, age 6.5, in first grade.  He has been
    using computers since he was 2, and is a computer lover.  He knows
    his way around a DOS-based menuing program, can start up a .BAT file
    from the DOS prompt, change directories, etc., and can find his way
    around the Program Manager in Windows 3.1.  I have made a point of
    ensuring that he does NOT understand the File Manager or any other
    method of copying or deleting files.  1st-3rd graders and below are not
    know for their discretion, but they are known for their adventurous
    spirits, if you know what I mean!  BTW - he absolutely deplores the 
    Apple II's and MACs they have at his school, and drools right next 
    to me at *our* PCs for sale at Sam's Club.  What can I say, he's a 
    Digit-child! -:)
    
    Meanwhile, back to the subject -- make sure that all of your parts and
    pieces are very, very *sturdy* and easy to clean!!  Any kid-oriented
    system should absolutely include one of those plastic keyboard covers
    to protect from spills, etc.!
    
    Trackballs are easier for little hands to use, but take both of 
    those hands to manage, and fail very, very quickly when used regularly 
    by a child.  (Kids rarely remember to wash their hands before using 
    the computer!)  
    
    Make sure that the keyboard has good action, and use stronger-than-usual 
    plastics or thicker springs or something, particularly for the Control, 
    Alt, Space Bar, and F-keys, which get used a *lot* in kid's games.  
    Kids have little or not respect for the delicate nature of electronics,
    so you'll want to build in the Tonka-Toughness!  My Digital PC is only 2.5 
    years old, and the right-hand Control and Alt keys have been sticking 
    for almost a year.  Keyboard *size* is very important, too.  While 
    my son loves the desktop system for it's capabilities, I've noticed he 
    is faster when using my laptop keyboard.
    
    I really like that new keyboard from Microsoft, the angled one
    with the built-in wrist rest.  Saves space, protects kids, and also
    build good ergonomic habits for the future.  
    
    I would absolutely recommend that any software in this package
    system be very flexible in terms of difficulty levels.  My son is very
    advanced for 6, and outgrew most of the 2-to-6 year old programs on the
    market before he started Kindergarten.  All learning programs should be
    couched in *fun*.  Dry math drills or spelling bees aren't going to cut
    it.
    
    Last but not least, think about including some sort of adult controlled
    (password protected??) timer that kicks the kids off the system after a
    certain amount of time.  Most of us would like our children to spend
    time in a variety of activities, and they can be a little hard to
    convince that their time is really up; a timer would help!
    
    My three dollars & fifty-six cents!
    
    M.
    

    ALso,
    
    Make sure there are no holes on the top of the crt housing where coke,
    orange juice or other neat stuff can fall (pour) through.  You CAN
    convection cool the housing without a fan and without top venting if
    you're creative.  (Check an old Delta or UAL reservation terminal to
    see how its done).
    
    Good selling!
    
    gc

    > BTW - he absolutely deplores the Apple II's and MACs they have at
    > his school
    
    Susceptability to fruitless religious wars has always been a frailty of
    the young.  How did Schopenhauer put it..."there is no absurdity so
    palpable but that it may be firmly planted in the human head if you
    only begin to inculcate it before the age of five, by constantly
    repeating it with an air of great solemnity."  Explains a lot, huh?
    
    My kid loves the Macs at school.  Of course, he loves the one in his
    bedroom, too.  Don't think he's ever wrestled with a "file manager",
    though, but he's a sharp kid- he'll figure it out.
    
    Peace,
    
    DougO 

RE: 3753.17 by SWAM2::GOLDMAN_MA "Walking Incubator, Use Caution"

> I have made a point of ensuring that he does NOT understand the File 
> Manager or any other method of copying or deleting files.  

I have a PC with WindowsNT.  Both of the kids have separate accounts so
that they can set up whatever screensavers,  colors and sounds they want to.  
Most files are protected from anyone's damage by a {EVERYONE Read Execute},
and some files are protected from kid damage by {KIDS No_access}.  The kids
have their own logical disk drive (40 Mbytes),  they can do as they wish on 
these.


Phil

    There is a company here in Minneapolis that has developed and is
    marketing a children's keyboard.  Special shape and colors, etc., was
    $100 but they're trying to bring the price down.  Can't remember the
    name of the company but can dig it up if necessary.
    
    Pat Campbell
    DTN 442-2208
    ANGLIN::CAMPBELL

The latest PC Warehouse Catalog had two kids keyboards. One ABC... and one 
normal key layout.

Re: alphabetical layout

In general, I agree that QWERTY is preferable, but the target age range stated
is 3-6, and I think it is a reasonable idea for the young end of that range,
who are just struggling with the alphabet song, to have to learn two letter
sequences.  QWERTY would be a requirement for ages 6+, absolutely.

I dug out the Home PC article, and there was one keyboard with a QWERTY layout
but subdued letters, in favor of pictures of things that started with the
letter.  I have my doubts about that approach; if the child is looking for the
letter A, he or she may be thinking of an alligator, not an apple, and may not
make the connection.

						Brian

	I would say go right the QWERTY keyboard. When my nephew was
	3-4 years old and first played with a computer, he didn't have
	much of a problem hunting for keys. Heck, he was only just
	learning to spell so figuring out what letter was which was enough
	of a challenge. Where it was located on the keyboard didn't
	matter.

	Stick with QWERTY.

							mike

    You might look at teaming with a group such as the Center for Education
    Leadership and Technology (CELT) if they still exist.  They are a
    not-for-profit consulting group located in Marlboro, MA that focuses on
    the effective use of education technology (a fancy term for PC and
    stuff in the classroom).  They probably already know what is available
    in the market and what has been successful.
    
    The name of the head guy there is Dr. John Phillipo (sp?).  Digital has
    teamed successfully with them several other places.  I will look for a
    phone number next time I am at my PC at work.
    
    Brian Aylward,
    Cincinnati
    
    

Lgdtgft eiqfutr dn atnl zkgd JVTKYN yg QWERTY, but I now changed it
back to QWERTY because I have problems to read what I wrote...:-)

    Go with the QWERTY. Kids that age hunt and peck anyway, so it really
    doesn't matter where the letters are. And they'll thank you for it
    later.
    
    I know the computer "lab" at my daughter's school (which is used by
    kindergarteners quite a lot) is all QWERTY, no complaints..
    
    ...tom