Conference 7.286::digital

    David Stone called NOTES "content-addressible-people".  (*) The same
    applies to usenet news groups, when the people who have the knowledge
    are able to make the time to follow them.
    
    	/john
    
    (*)  David's analogy was from relational databases, which allow
         addressing by content: 'give me the info on Ralph E. Jones Auto 
         Supply' versus data that is addressed by location: 'give me the 1345th 
         customer record'.

    
    
    re .0
    
    I one of about 50 phone reps in the TCC that supports the DEC DIRECT 
    phone line, and the PC group is a separate entity entirely.
    
    you have to understand what our role is and what resources are
    available,
    
    our charter is PRE-SALES technical support, this includes all product
    from systems. storage, software, and networks, PC's go to the PC group
    terminals and printers go to another group.
    
    we are not specailized to an specific product focus, we do everything.
    
    our focus is to provide configuration assistance to customers who are
    in the process of placing an order, also those people who are getting
    the numbers ready for approval etc,
    
    to get a feel for the time constraints we are under we do this live
    with the customer on the phone, part numbers pricing etc,
    
    the tools available are mainly the systems and options guide, dec
    direct catalog, vtx ir , our own little notesfile of stuff,
    
    we dont usually use notesfiles because the fact that notesfiles are
    really not the approved method of obtaining customer accurate
    information, you never know if the information in the notesfile is 
    accurate or is this information allowed for customer consumption.
    
    basically if you want to sell your product, it's best to make sure its
    in the SOC with as much information as possible,
    
    we support the US only, so the situation mentioned above dealing with 
    europe we really cant help people with that, 
    
    we do get training unfortunately it is slanted more marketing than
    technical, additionally we never ever get an opportunity in training
    to see the equipment we are configuring,
    
    1-800-DIGITAL is plastered on every printed ad or TV ad.
    most cases without some kind of prenotification and materials to
    assist custmers who call and ask us for more information about the ads.
    
    alot of calls are people looking for free consulting on old equipment
    
    i invite you to spend a few days with us on the phone, .0's note
    goes on to say how he utilized the notesfiles and all and had an answer 
    within a day etc, 
    
    we dont have that luxury, customers want the answer while waiting on
    the other end,
    
    we could write a book on all the crazy calls we get.
    
    always room for improvement
    
    mike
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Notesfiles may indeed not be "approved" and can't be guaranteed, but
    if your alternative is "I don't know and won't find out for you",
    notesfiles start to look a lot better.
    
    					Steve

    And you can use COMET ( http://www-comet.alf.dec.com:8032/ ) to search
    _all_ business-related notes conferences in seconds for a subject of
    interest, without knowing ahead of time which conferences to search in.
    For example, it took less than 10 seconds to return the following
    NOTES, CHAMP, and STARS references to "aardvark". Each is hyperlinked
    to the actual text containing the reference.
    
    Server: kuiper
    Category: NOTES CHAMP_95 STARS
    Keywords: aardvark
    Documents: 16
    SubQuery
    IBMPC_SHAREWARE (3)
    DECSTATION (2)
    MACINTOSH (2)
    ALPHA_OSF_IFT (1)
    CONTENT-RETRIEVAL (1)
    DIGITAL (1)
    IBMPC-93 (1)
    INTERNET_TOOLS (1)
    MACONLINE (1)
    MSWINDOWS (1)
    SCO-UNIX (1)
    SQL_SERVICES (1)
    
    -Tom

    There are many ways to say "Is not my yob, man" and this string
    contains one of them. Whether you're playing under the "Do what's
    right" or the "Whatever it takes" banner, Just Say NO is a good way to
    lose the game.
    
    -OFWAMI-

    	Comet is fantastic I just tried it and found an answer in minutes 
    to a problem that I have been scanning the notes files for weeks. Thanks 
    Thanks another plus for the notes files where I found comet.....

    
         I've found more valuable information in such a short time using
    notefiles that I'm declaring them "indispensible" (for me anyways!)
    And I'm still discovering new ones, new ways to use them more
    efficiently, and more Engineering groups conversing through them than
    ever before.
    Long live notefiles!
    
    Steve

    and for those of you who want to try out another way to do full text
    searching on selected notes conferences, check out the vtx server
    running on node IMBUSY, object number 134.  I've included the main menu
    below.
    
    In order to use this, you must be running VTX Version 5.1 or higher.
    To connect to the server, type in the following at DCL:
    
    $ VTX/S=IMBUSY/O=134
    
    Once you're connected, either type in SEARCH to search ALL of the
    conferences, or select the one you want, and then type in SEARCH.
    VTX supports Boolean searching.
    
      Welcome to the VTX V6.0-1 demo server.
    
            Each choice leads to a page from which only one index is 
            visible. From this page all of the indexes are visible.
    
              1  PC + IBMPC-94             6   MS VISUAL C++
                         
              2  MS-Windows                7   TeamLinks and Office 
    
              3  Windows NT                8   PATHWORKS + V5
    
              4  MS Languages              9   MAC 
    
              5  MS VISUAL BASIC           10  PC DECstation 
    
              11  VTX                      12  JOBS
    
              13  DECnis                 
    
            N E W. There is a patch kit to V6.0 now available from 
            HNGOVR::VTX$PUBLIC:  See under the [.V60-1] directory for the
    	    server 
     
    

        Kind of interesting... I did a search of 'multi-headed' and got the
    following:

    Server: kuiper
    Database: wrksys::alphastation
    Keywords: multi-headed
    SubQuery alphastation
         * Note 112.0 Your chance at the podium 36 Replies
         * Note 42.0 Dual-screens for Windows NT? 10 Replies

    Wonder why it missed Note 37 Multihead display on AlphaStations?

    A search of 'multiheaded' once again missed Note 37 in the AlphaStation
    conference.

    Server: kuiper
    Database: wrksys::alphastation
    Keywords: multiheaded
    SubQuery alphastation

         * Note 42.0 Dual-screens for Windows NT? 10 Replies
     
    Anyways, it got me somewhere that I could do additional snooping.

    I believe that Note .3 put it very succinctly.  If you're dealing with
    end-user pc people I believe that you're absolutely correct - they want 
    IMMEDIATE response.  We're dealing with Business Partner e.g., 
    Distributors, Reseller, ISVs, OEM, etc. and they call DECdirect looking 
    for assistance also.  However, this type of individual DOES NOT want 
    IMMEDIATE response.  Next day or so a, the old college try is all
    they're looking for.  Maybe when you're talking to customer's you need
    to understand where they're coming from.  These individuals are just
    like us.  They have customers and they understand the I'LL GET BACK
    WITH YOU philosophy.
    
    And NO I do NOT want to step into your sneakers.  10 years ago I use to
    get 250 calls a day from Distributors.  It's VERY frustrating.  It took
    me awhile to educate them to use the network.  I can process alot of
    email but not many phone calls because you end up chit chatting abit.
    I figured 10 minutes a phone call, therefore, less than 50 calls per
    day.  Everyday you start off in the hole.
    
    Over the years I've been proactive in sending them information and
    supplying a BBS for them to get information that I don't get many calls
    except in an emergency.
    
    Keep up the good work and I don't mean to demean DECdirect but I'm just
    looking for the old college try especially if the answers appears to be
    easy to get. 

    
    re.4
    
    How about those of us having to dial in 99% of the time?  I'd love to
    have this.
    
    re.*
    
    Are we listening?  Admin systems, information management...
    				      Digital's Achilles heel?

    Works for me with Lynx.  If you need to more about Lynx, I'd suggest
    checking the internet_services notesfile.

    > How about those of us having to dial in 99% of the time?  I'd love to
    > have this.
    
    There is no problem running Mosaic over a modem from a PC to the
    office.
    
    Olav

    Seems a rathole has started and many of you are missing the point
    O'Toole was trying to make in .2; i.e. those of us who work at the
    end of an 800# may "want" to do what is right, but we don't have
    the time or the ability to go off and peruse notes conferences hoping
    we can find an answer (especially if it involves an area we are not
    chartered to cover).
    
    I do use notes conferences quite a bit, but it has to be between
    calls, on my lunch hour or on my own time.
    
    A typical example as mentioned is, we at DEC-SALE also do pre-sales
    configurations.  I received a call yesterday from a gentleman having
    a problem with his DEC printer and wanted pin-outs.  I couldn't help
    him if I wanted to so I tried to steer/connect him to 1-800-354-9000.
    He informed me they wouldn't help him because his warranty had
    expired and he hadn't contracted for CSC support.
    
    Now I'm staring at a real-time display that tells me 15 calls are
    holding in my queue; that means a combination of 15 internal sales
    reps, MCS reps or authorized distributors are waiting for pre-sales
    config help.  I do SW services and licensing + warranty uplifts; am
    I supposed to ignore 15 people (who *will* complain long and loud to
    my management about the wait) to try and assist someone who has ad-
    mittedly allowed his warranty to expire and has no intention of
    buying support?
    
    I've been around almost 16 years; in the old days perhaps I could 
    have found someone in the PC or printer support groups to try and
    help this fellow as a favor, but those days (and groups) are gone
    forever.
    
    As suggested, try spending a day or even 1/2 a day working an 800#;
    I guarantee your eyes will start to glaze over after about 15 minutes.
    
    Karen
         

    
    	Karen -
    
    	I have worked an 800#. And the level of professionalism, caring,
    and willingness to help exhibited by our CALL DIGITAL people is the
    best.
    	It is NOT a people problem, folks. It is a SYSTEMS problem.
    	Once again, is anybody home?
    
    		the Greyhawk

    
    	Very interesting.
    
    	Then what we should provide would be a WWW Server Notes System.
    
    	Now that is something to byte into...
    
    
    		the Greyhawk

    We've been using notesfile for technical support for over 2 years now.
    It's for post-sale remedial support. The value is the effect of
    accumulatively accumulating, took advantages of all the easy functionality 
    of notesfile, readily available and free. Since it's on easynet, so, we 
    supported *globally*, South Africa, Holland, Hongkong, Israel, and India 
    for technical problems.
    
    There's an old saying: "You hear you forget, you see you remember, you
    do you understand". I can appreicate the suggestion to work on the phone
    support (to do) to understand, because the job burnout rate is higher for
    'agents' in the callcenter environment (I sensed it in .2 ;-(). People are  
    proned to pick up the phone to call, when they get a problem. But the truth 
    of the old saying really works against hearing it over the phone, which
    is relatively less effective way to transfer information.
    
    Especially for technical information, I'd rather see it than hear 
    it over the phone, or I'd like a copy in hand before pick up the phone. 
    In technical support I prefer to see questions/problems as well as
    answers/solutions written down. Notesfile fits perfectly.          
    
    As to customer satisfication, there's always the non-technical aspect which 
    would be better addressed over the phone or best with onsite support.
    
    
    Regards,
    Edwin                               

    re: .10
    
    As noted in a previous reply, the query in .4 was performed over a 9600
    bps dialup from a terminal emulator on my home PC using Lynx on the
    VAX/VMS cluster at my office.
    
    -Tom

    I had a very hard time trying to buy a Pentium chip w/mother board. I
    worked on this for about 5 days before some one told me I can`t buy
    just the chip and Digital no longer sells mother boards. I found all
    this out through Grayhawk. 
    
    I`m beginning to find out hard we really are to do business with. Next
    computer I buy won`t be a Digital.

    Re: .19
    
    Digital is in the corporate PC market. Corporations doesn't buy chips
    and motherboars, but fully configured PC ready-to-run.
    
    Olav

    
 >>   Corporations doesn't buy chips
>>    and motherboards, but fully configured PC ready-to-run.
  
  not quite true ...  
  
  A $9B corporation called the other day asking us to reconsider our no-bid 
  when they asked us to quote them custom motherboards for thousands of
  specialized PCs - they wanted the same quality we put into our
  ready-to-run PCs  

    I don`t know if this is the right place but could some one tell me what
    a Client/Server does? What does ahving the "fastest" one mean to some-
    one who wants to buy one? Is it so fast that it wouldn`t work on
    anything slower than a 486**.
    
    If this isn`t the right place please put it in the correct location.

    Is .22 a serious question?  If yes, then we have a major problem in the
    company about communicating.
    
    "Client/server" is a phrase to describe a style of carrying out computing
    work where instead of having one set of software programs on one
    computer do the work, the work is spread over several interacting
    software programs (usually) running on several computers.  the
    computers need to be linked by some sort of communications structure.
    
    One of the simplest examples is a spreadshet running on a PC which is
    linked to a larger machine where a lot of data is stored.
    
    There is a huge literature on the subject, there are a number of
    magazines and Digital (and many others) offer training courses.
    
    Axel

    Notes is an excellent example of an application designed using a
    client/server model. 
    
    Client/server is not so much a thing as a state of mind; this state
    of mind must exist *before* an application is designed.

    .23
    Yes, it was a serious question and if you think that I asked the
    question that we are in trouble then yes indeed we are in trouble. Now
    if there is training on this subject who do you propose pay for this
    training, certainly not my Cost Center!
    
    Thanks for your answers. 

    If you read current magazines or newspapers, or even the Digital annual
    report (I bet), you can't help but get an overview of what
    client/server computing is. A course about this, other than for those
    actually implementing such a system, would be overkill IMHO.
    
    You shouldn't need to take  course to learn something.
    
    -Ross

    C'mon, let's not beat the guy over the head!  Why doesn't someone put
    in a few references to specific issues, books, etc. that would help
    him out?  Play nice, kids.
    
    								Tex

    Thanks Tex. One such person has taken this off line but more info would
    be gratefull...especially if I really should need to know this sort of
    stuff.

MSBCS::CLIENT_SERVER	(General material on C/S, been around since 1990)
ACISS1::BOCSI		(Recent...contains pointers to training material
			 on client/server)

 

    
    	Also several excellent articles in the DEC Professional magazine;
    	especially April 1993 and October 1994.
    	May want to read Client Server: End User Implementation Plan, a
    	June 1994 IDC Report which is available as EC-Y4394-93.
    
    		the Greyhawk

    Now *that's* more like it!		
    		
    						Tex

    
  > <<< Note 3698.16 by POBOX::CORSON "Higher, and a bit more to the right" >>>
                           -< And I'm outtahere... >-

    
   > 	Very interesting.
    
   > 	Then what we should provide would be a WWW Server Notes System.
    
   > 	Now that is something to byte into...
    
    
   Hi, Greyhawk,
    
    Just found **that something** already exists, try Webnotes,
    http://www.ostech.com/
    
    Regards,
    Edwin                        
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    
    	Edwin -
    
    	Thanks. I will. Best regards.
    
    		the Greyhawk

          <<< LJSRV2::LP$DISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]INTERNET_TOOLS.NOTE;3 >>>
                              -< Internet Tools >-
================================================================================
Note 726.21           Let's make NOTES an Internet standard             21 of 28
LGP30::FLEISCHER "without vision the people perish " 33 lines  30-JAN-1995 17:08
                    -< try WebNotes at http://ostech.com/ >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re Note 726.3 by BIGUN::MAYNE:

>     NetNotes is the Windows NT Notes client. Both server and client are
>     available for Windows NT, and there is no requirement for PATHWORKS (ie
>     DECnet) although it is supported.
>     
>     Who's laughing now... 8-)
>     
>     PJDM
>     
>           <<< ISVNET::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]NETNOTES.NOTE;1 >>>
>                            -< NetNotes Product Set >-
> ==============================================================================
> Note 1.6                           Welcome                              6 of 6
> ISVNET::CLOUTIER "Notes 'R Us"                     16 lines   9-JUN-1994 17:13
>              -< [email protected] - Internet Conference >-
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        NetNotes now has a Web-based interface, appropriately named
        "WebNotes".  It is in the final stages of product
        development.  A publicly-accessible server, including some
        public conferences, are available via the URL:

        	http://ostech.com/

        This implements essentially the entire DEC Notes paradigm,
        including seen maps (maintained at the server), but has a
        high-speed boolean search capability in addition.

        Try it.  We are evaluating it as a conferencing tool for
        customer support on the Internet.

        Bob

Of course, it's not a DEC product...

re Note 3698.36 by KLAP::porter:

> Of course, it's not a DEC product...
  
        But at least it interoperates with DEC Notes, and implements
        the DEC Notes paradigm.

        Bob

Yeah, it's a nice little product.  I use their NetNotes
software all the time; in fact I'm typing this in a NetNotes
window.  I find the OSTECH developers to be keen, competent,
and responsive to problem reports and suggestions.  I'm just
ever-so-slightly peeved that DEC apparently couldn't make
money off the idea.

    
    >Of course, it's not a DEC product...
    
    ...yeah, but it sure looks like Digital Notes.

>    >Of course, it's not a DEC product...
>    
>   ...yeah, but it sure looks like Digital Notes.

Proabably because OS Tech wrote Pathworks Conferencing (the MS-Windows, DOS and
MAC VAX/DEC Notes client) until we brought it back in house.

Dave

A WWW notes gateway has existed for 15 months.  Not that anyone would ever 
productize it...  (it's about 1500 lines of code).